What caused the others to wake up and a possible ending to the song of ice and fire!

[devilish]

GRRM is a hippie who is very concerned about the environment and who believes in a link between the physical world and the spiritual world.  In the Armageddon Rag, GRRM makes great emphasis about it only to leave the reader with a taste of doubt and no clue what really happened.

Now let’s return on GOT. The series is known as the song of ice and fire. Hence the focus here is ice and fire.

 We know that the Planetos had suffered from two devastating disasters. One is linked with fire (ie the Doom of Valyria) and the other is linked with ice (the long night). We also know that both Targs and Starks survived and once it was over it thrived from it. 

Fire and Ice is linked in so many and similar ways with these two houses. Targs have dragons (creatures of fire) as their sigil, their main sword is Blackfyre and their say is Fire and blood. Starks have a direwolf as their sigil (a creature that existed during the ice age), their main sword is ice and their say is Winter is coming. We also know that Rhaegar was obsessed with such link, that he kidnapped Lyanna because of it and that might lead to Jon Snow.

We are introduced with the WW earlier in the book. A member of the NW escaped after encountering them and ended up executed by Ned. At around the same period we’re introduced to a dead direwolf and Ned was impressed that such creatures would be found so south of the border. Few chapters after the commander of the NW is attacked and few chapter after we’re introduced to the King beyond the wall whose army mainly consist of desperate people from across the 4 corners of the land beyond the wall who had decided to forget their innate hate for one another and to work together to cross at the safe side of the wall.

All these tips suggest one thing ie that that WW attack started much earlier than the events in GOT. The WW would probably leave the land of always winters and slowly started making their way South. All clans would have tried to resist them but in vain. Then they would slowly ally with another to try to beat them but to no avail until finally they concluded that they are simply too strong and that they have to get the hell out of there. That might have taken the WW a generation. But what happened prior to that generation that ended up upsetting them so much to wake up?

War can’t be the answer. Wars were fought regularly in Westeros so that couldn’t be the trigger point. The death of dragons could be a viable option under the ‘fire was losing, cold was winning’ theory. But that isn’t really a solid argument as dragons died long before GOT. The near wipe out of the Starks gives food for thought. However that also isn’t really a viable option. Starks had been dying for centuries, some in the most brutal way possible (ie in Boltons hands).

So what could trigger the awakening of the White walkers? The answer to that could be found in Melisandre’s ritual, the so called trial of fire.  we get a glimpse of how powerful fire can was with Danny. She decides to walk into Drogo’s pyre and the result to that was the awakening of dragons (ie magical creatures of the fire element).  This is quite significant and has three elements in mind. A Targ (fire element), walks into fire (fire element) and bring to life to a dragon (a magical creature whose element is also fire). Sacrifice by fire seems to have a significant role in giving birth to magical creatures. When Edric's blood was burnt three kings ended up death. 

Another characteristic of fire is that it is intrinsically linked to life. The sun is a ball of fire and without it would die. This theory is supported by GOT. R'hllor is the god of light, heat, and life. His antithesis is the Great Other, the god of ice and death. Fire is needed to give life to magical creatures. The shadow and the dragons. In matter of fact there were a Targ who thought that he'll be able to become a dragon by drinking wildfire. 

That automatically leads us to the next question ie what happens if you burn Stark blood? No one can answer to that. However the only warden of the North we know who was burnt was during Robert's rebellion. Rickard a direct descendent of the Kings of Winter. was burnt alive by the mad king. 

If Valyrian blood is connected to the fire element which is in turn linked to life (hence why when you burn Targ blood a magical creature of the fire element is born) then what could possibly happen if you burn a Stark ie direct descendents of the Kings of Winter and the North. Maybe it awakens/give birth to the creatures who live in the land of always Winter ie creatures who are both cold and have dominance over death?

So let make a quick resume

a-      The series is called the song of ice and fire which means that the most powerful elements in planetos is ice and fire. They are also equal (hence both are mentioned) and they are linked to life and death.

 

b-       The trial by fire seems to trigger the birth of magical creatures. Blood of Valyria generates magical creatures of the fire element type  and the Stark blood generates magical creatures from the cold element type. 

 

c-       Soon enough both elements will crush. The WW will fight the dragons. Death will fight life. They are of equal power hence none of them will be able to prevail.

 

So what could possible tip the balance?

Assuming R+L=J what happens if Jon Snow is sacrificed? He’s got both Targ (fire and life element) and Stark (cold and death element) hence…….

Did GRRM promise an ending which is bittersweet?

 

 

[The Hammer of Justice]

hmmmm I think the shadow that killed Renly and Sir Cortnay Penrose was born from Melisandre and Stannis relation, not Edric's blood. Edric was still at Storm's End when the shadow baby thing happened.

But returning to the topic. I think what triggered the WW waking was the death of the dragons as a result of the Dance of the Dragons 150~170 years ago. I think that dragons are the WW's kriptonyte, they are required to make dragonglass and dragonsteel (valyrian steel?) which are both things reported to be strong agaisn't the WWs (and maybe dragonflame itself). So when the last dragon died in the reign of Aegon III, the WW finally saw an opportunity to attack. But they were few in number at the time, so they must have had to slowly build up his forces, raising the dead, creating their army of wights, until they finally become a force large enough to attack the realm.

The WWs and the dragons are the worlds strongest "mass destruction weapons", but they are opposite to one another, so i think the balance means that both forces will clash and they will both be destroyed, which will bring peace (or at least a "magical" peace) to the world

[Clegane'sPup]

devilish, I found your post to be very interesting. So much to think about and my thoughts are jumbled up so I'll come back later. Thanks.

[devilish]

18 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

hmmmm I think the shadow that killed Renly and Sir Cortnay Penrose was born from Melisandre and Stannis relation, not Edric's blood. Edric was still at Storm's End when the shadow baby thing happened.

But returning to the topic. I think what triggered the WW waking was the death of the dragons as a result of the Dance of the Dragons 150~170 years ago. I think that dragons are the WW's kriptonyte, they are required to make dragonglass and dragonsteel (valyrian steel?) which are both things reported to be strong agaisn't the WWs (and maybe dragonflame itself). So when the last dragon died in the reign of Aegon III, the WW finally saw an opportunity to attack. But they were few in number at the time, so they must have had to slowly build up his forces, raising the dead, creating their army of wights, until they finally become a force large enough to attack the realm.

The WWs and the dragons are the worlds strongest "mass destruction weapons", but they are opposite to one another, so i think the balance means that both forces will clash and they will both be destroyed, which will bring peace (or at least a "magical" peace) to the world

You're right regarding Renly. Edric's blood was used to assassinate the three kings. I updated it accordingly

If it was the death of dragons then the WW would have already invaded Westeros. by now. Also the long winter is an ancient event and we can presume that dragons existed at that time (especially if you take GRRM's the ice dragon in consideration)

The series is named the series of ice and fire. Ice is associated with death and its also associated with the Starks while Fire is associated with life and its also associated with the Targs. Burning a true Targ brought dragons back to life. What happens if you burn a true Stark whose direct descendent of the long winter?

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 minutes ago, devilish said:

You're right regarding Renly. Edric's blood was used to assassinate the three kings. I updated it accordingly

If it was the death of dragons then the WW would have already invaded Westeros. by now. Also the long winter is an ancient event and we can presume that dragons existed at that time (especially if you take GRRM's the ice dragon in consideration)

The series is named the series of ice and fire. Ice is associated with death and its also associated with the Starks while Fire is associated with life and its also associated with the Targs. Burning a true Targ brought dragons back to life. What happens if you burn a true Stark whose direct descendent of the long winter?

 

Mel saw the 3 kings deaths in her fires and used Edrics blood as a simple trick.

[velo-knight]

This is a minority opinion, but I sometimes believe the final trigger was the fall of the Targaryen dynasty from power. It fits in to a lot of tropes in classical myths where the health of the king (and true dynasty) are intrinsically linked to the health of the realm. When the symbolic dragons are defeated (by the descendant of the Storm Kings - ASoIaF has a lot of negative imagery attached to storms from multiple cultures) the balance of the realm is thrown off. The Targaryens were in a unique position as semi-outsiders, and when they were defeated the equality of the Great Houses was disturbed. What's happening to the country mirrors this situation: the magical forces are all thrown out of balance, with an epically long summer to be followed by an extremely cold winter, and the WW have likely been building strength for their attack since the Rebellion.

This idea is connected to the "There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfell" - there must always be a Targaryen on the Iron Throne.

[devilish]

30 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

This is a minority opinion, but I sometimes believe the final trigger was the fall of the Targaryen dynasty from power. It fits in to a lot of tropes in classical myths where the health of the king (and true dynasty) are intrinsically linked to the health of the realm. When the symbolic dragons are defeated (by the descendant of the Storm Kings - ASoIaF has a lot of negative imagery attached to storms from multiple cultures) the balance of the realm is thrown off. The Targaryens were in a unique position as semi-outsiders, and when they were defeated the equality of the Great Houses was disturbed. What's happening to the country mirrors this situation: the magical forces are all thrown out of balance, with an epically long summer to be followed by an extremely cold winter, and the WW have likely been building strength for their attack since the Rebellion.

This idea is connected to the "There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfell" - there must always be a Targaryen on the Iron Throne.

Westeros existed long before the Targ invasion and the IT. Also Targs lived in dragonstone long before Aegon's invasion 

Whatever it was it must be something that

a- its quite unique
b- its linked to the WW or their element (ice)

Now The series is called the song of ice and fire. Its explained further by Melisandre were it describes the constant fight between the god of light/fire/life and the god of ice/death known as the GREAT OTHER. Throughout the story we know that fantastic things happen when purest of Valyrians walk inside the fire. Danny woke up/gave life back to the dragons inside the fossilised egg. What happens when the purest of ice blood is burnt? 

 

[velo-knight]

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Westeros existed before the Targ invasion. So it can't be the case

Westeros existed before the Starks, too. I don't buy the idea that because the Targaryens haven't been here for millennia (if those claims are even true) means that they can't be tied to the realm. They are obviously magical, and were even sent to Westeros due to magic.

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Whatever it was it must be something that

a- its quite unique
b- its linked to the WW or their element (ice)

Removal of the human embodiment of their opposite element from power would seem to qualify to me.

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Now The series is called the song of ice and fire. We also know through Melisandre that there's a constant fight between the god of light/fire/life and the god of ice/death known as the GREAT OTHER.

We know Melisandre thinks that, not that it's the case. I highly doubt Martin will show us any gods, save the trees, and even they will not have divinity proven. There are plenty of SSMs and Martin's well-known personal beliefs to suggest we're not going to have any gods directly interfering.

4 minutes ago, devilish said:

Throughout the story we know that fantastic things happen when purest of blood of these two races is burnt. Danny woke up the dragons inside the fossilised egg. Stark blood woke up the.....

That's a decent argument, but I'm also open to the idea that there are multiple forces driving the return of winter, just as there are multiple human behaviors that are collectively responsible for real-life global warming.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Mel saw the 3 kings deaths in her fires and used Edrics blood as a simple trick.

The King takes three leeches fat with the blood of Edric Storm and tosses them one at a time into a brazier, naming each of the false kings: Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy, and Robb. Melisandre tells him that this is not the best way, for it both will and will not work. The better way is to sacrifice Edric Storm to the flames, for there is power in a king's blood: Melisandre believes that his death will wake the stone dragon, as prophesized, and the sacrifice of one life to save thousands of others is warranted, but Stannis will not hear of it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords-Chapter_36

The Stone dragon is probably fossilised eggs. Melisandre knew that burning someone with Targ blood in him could bring fossilised dragon eggs into life (ie stone dragons)

Now what happens if the same sacrifice is done with somebody from the ice 'clan'? 

 

[devilish]

Just now, velo-knight said:

Westeros existed before the Starks, too. I don't buy the idea that because the Targaryens haven't been here for millennia (if those claims are even true) means that they can't be tied to the realm. They are obviously magical, and were even sent to Westeros due to magic.

Removal of the human embodiment of their opposite element from power would seem to qualify to me.

We know Melisandre thinks that, not that it's the case. I highly doubt Martin will show us any gods, save the trees, and even they will not have divinity proven. There are plenty of SSMs and Martin's well-known personal beliefs to suggest we're not going to have any gods directly interfering.

That's a decent argument, but I'm also open to the idea that there are multiple forces driving the return of winter, just as there are multiple human behaviors that are collectively responsible for real-life global warming.

A- Of course it did and I strongly believe that the Targs (or the pure Valyrians from which the Targ descend from) are important and instrumental to all 'fire' magic.. All I am saying is that just like Danny was able to awaken the dragons by throwing herself in fire, the Starks (who are their ice equivalent) had unintentionally awoken the WW when the mad king decided to burn Rickard alive. Its a theory that even some Targs believed in. One of the Targs actually drank wildfire thinking he will become a dragon. Unfortunately for him he lacked the fossiled egg and his death fizzled into nothing.

The IT means nothing. In matter of fact, when you take Westeros history in account, Aegon's conquest is a relatively new thing

B- I doubt it too. In the Armageddon Rag GRRM brilliantly bring supernatural powers without ever explaining them fully. It leaves you with a WTF taste and makes you wonder why and how things happened. 

C- I think that Starks (or the pure Northerners whom they descend from) and Targs (or the pure Valyrians whom they descend from) are the two ends of the spectrum that keeps the Westeros world in balance. If someone messes up with Targ blood then dragons may occur. When someone messes up with Stark blood then the WW can occur. In extreme cases messing up too much with Targ blood he risks a cataclysmic disaster similar to the doom of Valyria. A similar disaster happens when someone messes up too much with the Stark blood (Long winter). Once that occur then maybe the only way to bring balance back without having to face the full brunt of such disaster is to sacrifice someone whose got the perfect balance (Targ and Stark blood). 

 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

The King takes three leeches fat with the blood of Edric Storm and tosses them one at a time into a brazier, naming each of the false kings: Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy, and Robb. Melisandre tells him that this is not the best way, for it both will and will not work. The better way is to sacrifice Edric Storm to the flames, for there is power in a king's blood: Melisandre believes that his death will wake the stone dragon, as prophesized, and the sacrifice of one life to save thousands of others is warranted, but Stannis will not hear of it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords-Chapter_36

The Stone dragon is probably fossilised eggs. Melisandre knew that burning someone with Targ blood in him could bring fossilised dragon eggs into life (ie stone dragons)

Now what happens if the same sacrifice is done with somebody from the ice 'clan'? 

 

Haven't have a chance to read the whole thread yet but so far I am finding it fascinating and I think IMHO everyone so far is right in something or has something to add to this puzzle.  I am sure we don't have all the info yet to make more than educated guesses and I will be back with my theories (thinking Celtic mythology - Seelie and Unseelie courts may be part of the inspiration and let's face it the COTF sound very fairy like to me lol); however, your question has merit but... I wonder... if dragons awake when you burn a Targaryen... for me the question is not what happens when you burn a Stark, but when you freeze a Stark!!!  I wonder if this is where all this Benjen mystery (if he ever shows up or his story is told in the books) is leading... and perhaps even the making of the Night King...  However what makes, breaks sometimes and 

Spoiler

I am not against the show idea that dragon glass makes WWs either

Spoiler

 

 

Now the theory re there always has to be a Targaryen in power (or one half of the power as it could be) is totally consistent with the "there must always be a Stark in WF" mantra...

I believe George has said that at the end the seasons will get back to normal as opposed to several years of each which seems like a battle struggle for power by both sides, very Court of Summer and Court of Winter indeed.

One thing I have noticed, although not sure what the significance is is that whilst the Starks fear the Winter, the Targs seem to embrace the Fire.  Also, this is probably the greatest tinfoil ever lol but I had wonder where the story is going to lead re Essos.  I personally prefer the storylines in Westeros but the continent has to be there for a reason and I do wonder if maybe warmer climates, more akin to the fire element may end up being the residence of the Fire Monarch, and Westeros the domain of the Ice one... 

The ending might necessitate the destruction of dragons and WWs et al but both powers must stay equal and in a balance, i.e. some sort of a truce.

Still I guess there are a lot of key elements we haven't been yet given that make it very hard to guess with any certainty but I think this is one of the most fascinating threads I have read here and that between us all we, even if we might just be grasping at straws we are getting somewhere towards figuring out the overall ending lol

Oh, when I said hadn't read full thread only had one post unread lol  Yes, the balance has to be key, both houses must reign (in some way or manner).  This would so far as we are aware make Jon or his descendants at least, King.  Now a Jon/Dany union would actually tilt the scales a little towards more Targaryen whereas say Rickon/Dany (lol unthinkable as it would seem or Bran would be perfect from that point of view).  Still not about to start prophetising or shipping Rickon/Dany.  I think Jon/Dany has a good chance though.

Now, although this may or may not be relevant it is interesting to note (without discussing the show on a books thread) that when George met up with D & D to see if he wanted them to do the show his question was "who is Jon's mother?"  The answer to that has to be super endgame and we all know the answer to it now...

OMG, suddenly a thought has come to my head that is just sooo fitting lol  Okay, sure it may be total tinfoil (yet again) but hear me out:  Okay, if Dany is almost pure fire and Jon is half fire half ice (yes fire is kind of winning, which we know has to be balanced), now this has taking me to a theory I had until recently blank point rejected (but not anymore), i.e. Tyrion Targaryen (his mother was Lannister though so still not pure fire...).  If he and Sansa decide to stay together, politically or whatever, their kids would also be part fire part ice and in equal proportions to the Jon/Dany kids by exact opposite, with more ice than fire (never bought that witch's prophecy or threat more likely to Dany re her being infertile), lol incestuous again but if the child of one couple married the child of the other stability could occur...(assuming I am correct on a ton of things and I certainly don't presume I am) but it could make soooo much sense

Now, after-thought when thinking is Lannister ice?  probably no, but it's Westeros... So would Dorne be more fire than ice or say Lannister or Tarly more ice??? or are they just neutral?  If neutral Tyrion/Sansa's kids would be a little more ice than Jon/Dany's are fire but very marginally...

[The Prince who was not pro]

Justo ahora, Morgana Lannister dijo:

No se tiene la oportunidad de leer todo el hilo todavía, pero hasta ahora estoy encontrando fascinante y pienso en mi humilde opinión todo el mundo hasta el momento es el adecuado en algo o tiene algo que añadir a este rompecabezas. Estoy seguro de que no tenemos toda la información todavía para hacer más conjeturas y estaré de vuelta con mis teorías (pensamiento mitología celta - cortes Luminosos y Oscuros pueden ser parte de la inspiración y seamos sinceros, la COTF suena muy hada como me lol); Sin embargo, su pregunta tiene mérito, pero ... Me pregunto ... si dragones despierto cuando se graba un Targaryen ... para mí la cuestión no es lo que sucede cuando se graba un Stark, pero cuando se congela una Stark !!! Me pregunto si esto es donde todo este misterio Benjen (si alguna vez se muestra arriba o su historia se cuenta en los libros) está llevando ... y tal vez incluso la realización de la Noche rey ... Sin embargo lo que hace que, a veces se rompe y 

  Revelar contenidos ocultos

No estoy en contra de la idea de mostrar que el vidrio sea dragón hace WWs

  Revelar contenidos ocultos

 

 

Ahora la teoría re no siempre tiene que ser un Targaryen en el poder (o la mitad de la potencia, ya que podría ser) es totalmente coherente con el mantra "siempre tiene que haber un Stark en WF" ...

Creo que George ha dicho que al final las estaciones del año se vuelva a la normalidad en lugar de varios años de cada uno, que parece como una lucha batalla por el poder por ambos lados, muy Tribunal de verano y de invierno del Tribunal de hecho.

Una cosa que he notado, aunque no estoy seguro de qué es el significado es que, aunque los Starks temen que el invierno, las Targs parecen abrazar el fuego. Además, este es probablemente el más grande de papel de aluminio cada vez lol pero tenía extrañar que la historia va a llevar re Essos. Yo personalmente prefiero las historias de Poniente pero el continente tiene que estar ahí por una razón y me pregunto si climas quizá más cálidas, más afines al elemento fuego puede llegar a ser la residencia del monarca Fuego y Poniente el dominio del hielo uno... 

El final podría requerir la destrucción de los dragones y WWs et al, pero ambas potencias debe permanecer igual y en un equilibrio, es decir, una especie de tregua.

Aún así creo que hay una gran cantidad de elementos clave que aún no han sido dados que hacen que sea muy difícil de adivinar con certeza, pero creo que este es uno de los hilos más fascinantes que he leído aquí y que entre nosotros todo lo que, incluso si podríamos ser simplemente agarrando a un clavo ardiendo que estamos llegando a alguna parte hacia el final averiguar general lol

Oh, cuando dije que no había leído rosca completa sólo tenía un mensaje sin leer lol Sí, el balance tiene que ser clave, ambas cámaras deben reinar (de alguna forma o manera). Esto haría la medida en que somos conscientes de maquillaje Jon o sus descendientes, al menos, King. Ahora una unión Jon / Dany sería realmente inclinar un poco la balanza hacia una mayor Targaryen mientras que decir Rickon / Dany (lol impensable, ya que parece o salvado sería perfecto desde ese punto de vista). Aún no a punto de comenzar prophetising o el envío Rickon / Dany. Creo que Jon / Dany tiene una buena oportunidad, aunque.

Ahora bien, aunque esto puede o no ser relevante, es interesante observar (sin discutir el programa en un hilo libros) que cuando George se reunió con D & D para ver si les quería hacer el show a su pregunta fue "¿quién es la madre de Jon? " La respuesta a esa tiene que ser super final del juego y todos sabemos la respuesta a ella ahora ...

OMG, de repente un pensamiento ha llegado a mi cabeza que se acaba taaan apropiado lol Bueno, seguro que puede ser papel de aluminio total (una vez más), pero escúchame: Está bien, si Dany es casi puro fuego y Jon es fuego medio la mitad de hielo (sí el fuego es una especie de ganar, lo que sabemos que tiene que ser equilibrada), ahora esto me ha de tomar a una teoría que tenía hasta hace poco pensaba que era demasiado, es decir, Tyrion Targaryen (su madre era Lannister aunque ...). Si él y Sansa decide permanecer juntos, política o lo que sea, sus hijos también serían parte parte del fuego hielo y en proporciones iguales a los niños Jon / Dany (nunca compró esa profecía o la amenaza de la bruja más propensos a Dany re su ser infértil), lol incestuosa de nuevo, pero si el niño de una pareja casada que el niño pudiera darse la otra ... la estabilidad (suponiendo que estoy en lo correcto en un montón de cosas y ciertamente no pretendo que soy), pero podría hacer tan mucho sentido

Sansa and tyrion are not fire and ice, sansa is going to be next to sandor, there is a lot of sansan romance in the books suggesting that they are going to be together in the end i will even have children, between tyrion and sansa there is not Nothing, only a marriage arranged and forced that surely will be annulled in the next book in some way, was not consummated is voidable.

[Morgana Lannister]

50 minutes ago, devilish said:

The King takes three leeches fat with the blood of Edric Storm and tosses them one at a time into a brazier, naming each of the false kings: Joffrey, Balon Greyjoy, and Robb. Melisandre tells him that this is not the best way, for it both will and will not work. The better way is to sacrifice Edric Storm to the flames, for there is power in a king's blood: Melisandre believes that his death will wake the stone dragon, as prophesized, and the sacrifice of one life to save thousands of others is warranted, but Stannis will not hear of it.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords-Chapter_36

The Stone dragon is probably fossilised eggs. Melisandre knew that burning someone with Targ blood in him could bring fossilised dragon eggs into life (ie stone dragons)

Now what happens if the same sacrifice is done with somebody from the ice 'clan'? 

 

Haven't have a chance to read the whole thread yet but so far I am finding it fascinating and I think IMHO everyone so far is right in something or has something to add to this puzzle.  I am sure we don't have all the info yet to make more than educated guesses and I will be back with my theories (thinking Celtic mythology - Seelie and Unseelie courts may be part of the inspiration and let's face it the COTF sound very fairy like to me lol); however, your question has merit but... I wonder... if dragons awake when you burn a Targaryen... for me the question is not what happens when you burn a Stark, but when you freeze a Stark!!!  I wonder if this is where all this Benjen mystery (if he ever shows up or his story is told in the books) is leading... and perhaps even the making of the Night King...  However what makes, breaks sometimes and 

Spoiler

I am not against the show idea that dragon glass makes WWs either

Spoiler

 

 

Now the theory re there always has to be a Targaryen in power (or one half of the power as it could be) is totally consistent with the "there must always be a Stark in WF" mantra...

I believe George has said that at the end the seasons will get back to normal as opposed to several years of each which seems like a battle struggle for power by both sides, very Court of Summer and Court of Winter indeed.

One thing I have notice, although not sure what the significance is is that whilst the Starks fear the Winter, the Targs seem to embrace the Fire.  Also, this is probably the greatest tinfoil ever lol but I had wonder where the story is going to lead re Essos.  I personally prefer the storylines in Westeros but the continent has to be there for a reason and I do wonder if maybe warmer climates, more akin to the fire element may end up being the residence of the Fire Monarch, and Westeros the domain of the Ice one... 

The ending might necessitate the destruction of dragons and WWs et al but both powers must stay equal and in a balance, i.e. some sort of a truce.

Still I guess there are a lot of key elements we haven't been yet given that make it very hard to guess with any certainty but I think this is one of the most fascinating threads I have read here and that between us all we, even if we might just be grasping at straws we are getting somewhere towards figuring out the overall ending lol

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, The Prince who was not pro said:

Sansa and tyrion are not fire and ice, sansa is going to be next to sandor, there is a lot of sansan romance in the books suggesting that they are going to be together in the end i will even have children, between tyrion and sansa there is not Nothing more, only a marriage arranged and forced that surely is going to be annulled in the next book of some way, was not consummated is annulable.

Fair enough or it's all a red herring.  I don't claim my theories or preferences are gospel but I think George is not just writing pure romance genre the end game re fire versus ice is the main theme and with or without those kids I have suggested the end game will not be just a romance.  Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Sandor and I have a lot of sympathy for him, okay, maybe not my type lo but that is totally irrelevant; the end game has to deal with the weather situation etc and the houses that represent those contrasting elements.  Tyrion / Sansa could work politically even if he is 100% Lannister but having stumbled upon this idea and with all the theories with him being Targ... lol we shall see but would bet real money on this or something very similar.  Main protagonists though will be Jon and Dany who I seem to recall you also dislike...

Okay, absolutely my fault but let's not derail this thread which is very much the forces that are involved in the climate situation to the people we ship.  Okay, I ship Jon/Dany and Tyrion/Sansa (and yes she was forced then but look at her in the Vale she thinks of him fondly, not in love, of course not but doesn't have to be and people evolve also especially if the starting premise happened in hard circumstances when you were 12) but still this is not about who loves who and why, much more about how can it be sorted out for the sake of humanity

 

[Greywater-Watch]

It might just be a question of seasons, sort of inevitable change of time. GRRM stressed this aspect once again on his the last convention (Guadalajara International Book Fair) he attended, that the course of seasons was fundamental to his idea of creating ASOIAF.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

So what could trigger the awakening of the White walkers? <snip>

Another characteristic of fire is that it is intrinsically linked to life. The sun is a ball of fire and without it would die. This theory is supported by GOT. R'hllor is the god of light, heat, and life. His antithesis is the Great Other, the god of ice and death. <snip>

Oh boy, this is going to very difficult for me to articulate. Like I said I really enjoyed reading your opening post.

I’m beginning to think that the Others had merely retreated back to the land of always winter after the long night and the battle of dawn. As winter and longer periods of darkness approach this time, the Others started to move freely again.

The people beyond the Wall began to move south. They knew the threat. They knew to burn the dead and that fire kills the wights. They did not however seem to know how to deal with the WW’s. Nor did I until it was revealed that dragonglass otherwise known as frozen fire is what kills them.

I’m rethinking some of fire and ice stuff, especially some of Mel’s musing. If the long night comes again, a period of total darkness, no sun shine, all that the people of Westeros will have is their fires, torches and candles. No crops, no fodder for the animals because nothing will grow without sun light, that great big fireball in the sky.

When I look at the story in this manner it shines a whole new light on things. It won’t really matter who sits the IT. Argh so much to look forward to in WoW.

Thanks for the topic. I’m liking it.

[Voice]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

So what could trigger the awakening of the White walkers?

 

The killing of Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, by a descendant of Brandon the Builder (the Night's King) awoke the Others. Full theories as to the "how" and "why" can be found in my sig. The awakening citation follows:

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

In dream, Ned was able to see what he could not glimpse in life:  the Red Comet's ascent ("blood-streaked sky") as blue eyes of death ride the winds of winter ("storm of rose petals blew"). The blue eyes of death belong to the Others, as does the milkglass blade, "Dawn" (Bran the Builder's original "Ice"). 

[devilish]

I think its unfair to back my theory without mentioning the Armageddon Rag. Its a book written by George RR Martin in the early 80s and he had high hopes of it being a big success. It turned out to be a disaster and it shocked the man so much that he stopped writing fiction for many many years. Its evident that the author was  emotionally invested in this story, so its plausible that it would influence his next work

Here's the plot. Click on the link if you're interested  

http://allreaders.com/book-review-summary/the-armageddon-rag-40638

SPOILER AHEAD FOR THE ARMAGEDDON RAG

There's plenty of parallel in here

a- Similar to Rhaegar, Sandy is disillusioned in life. The golden years of the Targs are over just as the golden years of flower power were over.   Both declines were signed by the death of something very important (dragons in one side, the death of Hobbins on the other)

b- Both end up believing that they were the central piece of a prophecy that would save the world from Doom. Sandy initially believes that he has to kill the new Hobbins to save the world from Armageddon. Rhaegar believed that he's the prince that was promised and the man who could deliver the world from darkness.

c- In Sandy's case the 'prophecy' proved to be poisoned. Yes Armageddon may have been close but Sandy could only prevent it by not take action. Sandy decides not to shoot the possessed Hobbins and instead he watches him as he complete the concert the way it should have happened all those years ago. The possessed Hobbins leave the boy alone and the concert ends peacefully. Unlike Sandy, Rhaegar decides to take action and fulfill his prophecy. He kidnaps Lyanna, which ended up triggering Rickar's (the king of winter descendent) death by fire which in turn triggered the WW. Its copy and paste to Danny's walk (the Valyrian child) in Drogo's pyre which triggered the rebirth of the dragons

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

It might just be a question of seasons, sort of inevitable change of time. GRRM stressed this aspect once again on his the last convention (Guadalajara International Book Fair) he attended, that the course of seasons was fundamental to his idea of creating ASOIAF.

Yes, as I said before, I think it is very akin to the Celtic mythology idea of a Queen of Winter and Court and the Summer counterpart - but in the Celtic myth they work in harmony; what I think has happened here is that they out of kilter due to a power struggle between the two; now what caused it in the first place of course lol is what we are debating or even trying to ascertain

[devilish]

47 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

The killing of Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, by a descendant of Brandon the Builder (the Night's King) awoke the Others. Full theories as to the "how" and "why" can be found in my sig. The awakening citation follows:

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

In dream, Ned was able to see what he could not glimpse in life:  the Red Comet's ascent ("blood-streaked sky") as blue eyes of death ride the winds of winter ("storm of rose petals blew"). The blue eyes of death belong to the Others, as does the milkglass blade, "Dawn" (Bran the Builder's original "Ice"). 

An interesting theory indeed. However it compliments rather then contrasts my theory. 

Rhaegar could have started the ritual (ie Lyanna's kidnapping triggered the event) which lead to the sacrifice by fire to the King of Winter's descendent (the crux of the ritual) and which was completed by Dayne (the descendent of r'hllor) losing against Ned (representing the great other). Without Rhaegar's intervention, Lyanna would have married Robert, Aerys would have never burnt Rickard and Arthur would have never been killed by Ned. So similarly to the Armageddon Rag, the prophecy/premotion was poisoned and the way to avoid Armageddon was by doing nothing.