YOVMO Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Do Others grow/age? I just had a thought about the child sacrifices that Craster makes to the walkers. The idea is that they are turned into Others. So are there baby others out there or do they somehow grow to full man size before or after whatever process changes them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 "A newborn baby stinks of life", so I guess their vital energy is used to power more white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I got a silver stag says we never get the answer. Kinda like, "How does a living creature breathe fire?" -- "Magic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Magic, indeed. GRRM has in the past declined to set out rules of magic in his world because once you do it ceases to be... magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrav Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Are Others even born? Are they just animated sculptures a la Westworld? there's heavy speculation/assumption that they are Craster's sons, but Craster wasn't 10,000 years old. And even if true, that doesn't answer the origin of the first or great Other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 I'd tend to agree with LM on this. I just posted this in another topic but the fact that when they die they seem to just melt makes me think they were not once humans. I mean how can flesh simply be turned into ice. It makes me think that it is just magic bringing life to ice, the same way dragons are described as fire made flesh. But when a dragon dies it's corpse doesn't just burst into flames, it is still there and the bones seem to last forever. Edit: I believe Old Nan said they sleep for thousands of years, so it could conceivably mean they are growing during that time, but we can't really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 1 hour ago, cgrav said: Are Others even born? Are they just animated sculptures a la Westworld? there's heavy speculation/assumption that they are Craster's sons, but Craster wasn't 10,000 years old. And even if true, that doesn't answer the origin of the first or great Other. Yup. Definitely the latter. In the 1993 letter, GRRM called one rank of them the "neverborn." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I'd tend to agree with LM on this. I just posted this in another topic but the fact that when they die they seem to just melt makes me think they were not once humans. I mean how can flesh simply be turned into ice. It makes me think that it is just magic bringing life to ice, the same way dragons are described as fire made flesh. But when a dragon dies it's corpse doesn't just burst into flames, it is still there and the bones seem to last forever. Edit: I believe Old Nan said they sleep for thousands of years, so it could conceivably mean they are growing during that time, but we can't really know. But perhaps if the dragon is slain by the promised prince with his firery blade... Quote "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." Jon III, Dance 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 We just don't know that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 On 12/5/2016 at 11:50 AM, rotting sea cow said: "A newborn baby stinks of life", so I guess their vital energy is used to power more white walkers. I have to say I really like this answer and it makes a lot of sense to me. I had never thought of it this way, but yes, I think that seems to be an answer that checks all the boxes without being contradictory or Ludacris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 23 hours ago, Voice said: Yup. Definitely the latter. In the 1993 letter, GRRM called one rank of them the "neverborn." Not "them", but their minions: ...half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn... That was an early outline, anyway, things changed since then. I can't help myself, I must quote just one more passage. Absolutely hilarious, in retrospect: ...I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages... Oh, my sweet summer child... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Not "them", but their minions: ...half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn... Makes sense though if the "inhuman others" are actually the "inhuman" children of the forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 On 05/12/2016 at 7:46 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said: I just posted this in another topic but the fact that when they die they seem to just melt makes me think they were not once humans. I love how some of us still have some doubt on this. I share that doubt still and can't bring myself to be swayed by the mummers interpretation on screen so will wait for the books to make my mind up fully. The comment of the "child's Snow Knight" in the Sam chapter in ASOS does appear to strengthen the view that the Singers created them but if I'm honest the books could possibly just as easily explain how the Singers seeked out the Others and allied with them perhaps, without actually having to be who created them from scratch. The Singers I'm quite sure would know how to communicate in their icy tongue since they sing the song of the earth and all that jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I love how some of us still have some doubt on this. I share that doubt still and can't bring myself to be swayed by the mummers interpretation on screen so will wait for the books to make my mind up fully. The comment of the "child's Snow Knight" in the Sam chapter in ASOS does appear to strengthen the view that the Singers created them but if I'm honest the books could possibly just as easily explain how the Singers seeked out the Others and allied with them perhaps, without actually having to be who created them from scratch. The Singers I'm quite sure would know how to communicate in their icy tongue since they sing the song of the earth and all that jazz. It could be a cross between 2 things Spoiler Maybe the Singers made the 1st WW out of a human, a Stark even, but then after that he/it took it upon himself to make more, there must be some way to increase their numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 22 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: It could be a cross between 2 things Hide contents Maybe the Singers made the 1st WW out of a human, a Stark even, but then after that he/it took it upon himself to make more, there must be some way to increase their numbers. I don't think we need spoiler tags so I'll take a gamble and leave it out. This theory was alive before the mummers played out their version on screen anyway. Why would the singers just create one being though? Just one sole Other? The theory has some sense to it if they created a certain amount of them to combat the first men, or Andals or whoever the singers wanted to fight with this creation of icy beings, just making one makes less sense doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I don't think we need spoiler tags so I'll take a gamble and leave it out. This theory was alive before the mummers played out their version on screen anyway. Why would the singers just create one being though? Just one sole Other? The theory has some sense to it if they created a certain amount of them to combat the first men, or Andals or whoever the singers wanted to fight with this creation of icy beings, just making one makes less sense doesn't it. Unless they intended him to "self replicate" or create more however you want to phrase that. But yes if they did not intend him to be able to create more than they probably would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 21 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Not "them", but their minions: ...half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn... Hence why I said "one rank of them". I view them as a hierarchy, with white walkers (the neverborn) as field commanders, wights (legions of the undead) as grunts/minions, and the ancient Others (inhuman others) that first came in the long night as they who are calling their banners to wake these cold ones from the wind. 21 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: That was an early outline, anyway, things changed since then. I can't help myself, I must quote just one more passage. Absolutely hilarious, in retrospect: ...I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages... Oh, my sweet summer child... Do I know you? LOL You sound just like this one friend of mine. If I don't know you, you might really enjoy this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 On 12/5/2016 at 2:46 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said: I'd tend to agree with LM on this. I just posted this in another topic but the fact that when they die they seem to just melt makes me think they were not once humans. I mean how can flesh simply be turned into ice. It makes me think that it is just magic bringing life to ice, the same way dragons are described as fire made flesh. But when a dragon dies it's corpse doesn't just burst into flames, it is still there and the bones seem to last forever. Edit: I believe Old Nan said they sleep for thousands of years, so it could conceivably mean they are growing during that time, but we can't really know. Weirwood (Like Dragon Bone) seems to last forever... It also isn't clear to me that given the freedom to grow either a dragon or a weirwood would ever die of old age. On 12/5/2016 at 4:12 PM, Lost Melnibonean said: But perhaps if the dragon is slain by the promised prince with his firery blade... Quote "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." Jon III, Dance 10 Don't you figure that this is describing Azor Ahai killing an Other or a wight (not a dragon)? On 12/5/2016 at 11:50 AM, rotting sea cow said: "A newborn baby stinks of life", so I guess their vital energy is used to power more white walkers. If "only death can pay for life" perhaps life is how one would pay for death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I think that the Others are some kind of a tribe of the first men who wandered too far north and experienced some ice magic, I don't believe they age up, but I believe their origin is different from the show, I mean, that scene in the tv series where the ''Night's King'' turns the baby into a baby other, I think they actually sacrifice the baby to some other purpose, maybe to stay alive, maybe there is a codintion so they won't cease to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 This question raises more questions: do they die of old age, and if yes how do they procreate? I am not sure if I want to hear the answer. I think they are non human, they are somehow the opposite of dragons: magic-ice-creatures. similar to what some other posters said above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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