Lord Rickard Stark had king's blood...

[Gwindor]

This idea was briefly mentioned in this thread:

However, I couldn't find a discussion dedicated specifically to this topic, so here goes.

If we believe Melisandre that there is power in king's blood, which can supposedly be unleashed by burning its carrier, then the execution of Lord Rickard Stark certainly counts as such a sacrifice. He had king's blood as a descendant of Torrhen Stark, The King Who Knelt, and he was burned alive.

So, the question is, were there any magical consequences to this burning? The awakening of the Others, as the author of the aforementioned thread suggested (which I, personally, doubt), or something different, like conception of Jon or Daenerys?

I think it's quite possible something notable happened, which might have shaped the current events as we know them. What do you think?

[estermonty python]

Rickard wasn't really "burnt alive."  He was more "cooked in his armor."  His body wasn't consumed by flame.  Not to be gross, but I do think there's a distinction there.  For Rickard's death to have some sort of magical properties, Viserys's death would also have to have magical properties, as he, too, has king's blood, and he, too, suffered death from hot metal.  

[devilish]

5 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Rickard wasn't really "burnt alive."  He was more "cooked in his armor."  His body wasn't consumed by flame.  Not to be gross, but I do think there's a distinction there.  For Rickard's death to have some sort of magical properties, Viserys's death would also have to have magical properties, as he, too, has king's blood, and he, too, suffered death from hot metal.  

Armour works wierd in GOT. If full plate armour worked the way it should work then no one would be using swords. Since sword is pretty effective against armour then I guess fire will do the trick too. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

34 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

For Rickard's death to have some sort of magical properties, Viserys's death would also have to have magical properties, as he, too, has king's blood, and he, too, suffered death from hot metal.  

We don’t necessarily know that his death didn’t have magical consequences though.

[devilish]

22 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We don’t necessarily know that his death didn’t have magical consequences though.

 

There's actually 3 Targ Kings/Queens who died/played with fire. 

a- Queen Danny who walked into Drogo's pyre
b- King Viserys who suffered death from hot metal
c-  King Aegon V during the Tragedy at Summerhall

These 3 stories were important enough for GRRM to go in detail about each character. 

Please remind me how many Dragons were awoken?

 

[rotting sea cow]

Somewhere I read the theory that it was the Summerhall tragedy that awoke the Others. A ruling king was burned there. It may also fit with the timeline of Craster giving sons to the Others.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

It’s clear that a King’s blood being given to the flames has magical consequences. Given that a leech with Stannis’s blood can produce another King’s death, it’s not absurd to think that the descendent of a King getting cooked in his armour, or a King getting his head covered in molten gold, might produce some magic too. Frankly, we don’t really know what the criteria is. It’s quite clear that Mel doesn’t really know either, and simply burns everything and everyone that might be considered to have “King’s blood”.

[velo-knight]

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Somewhere I read the theory that it was the Summerhall tragedy that awoke the Others. A ruling king was burned there. It may also fit with the timeline of Craster giving sons to the Others.

I like this idea, and I wish it had caught on more. The death of the dragons was probably too long ago, but RR and Rickard dying was pretty recent. Summerhall is a believable time interval and such a mysterious event that begs more information.

[Macgregor of the North]

Hasn't there been quite a lot of people with Kings blood burned to death in the last few hundred years? 

Aegon and his sisters likely scorched a few I'm sure during the conquest, and during the Dance of the Dragons I'm sure a few were scorched there too who had Kings blood. 

It may have to be done in some kind of ritualistic manner for there to be some magical knock on effect. I'm not sure really but my point is there has been lots of people burned with Kings blood and should we think they all had some kind of magical effect? 

[Gwindor]

40 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Given that a leech with Stannis’s blood can produce another King’s death

But it can't, actually. It was a trick to gain Stannis' trust.

Balon Greyjoy was killed by his brother Euron, Robb Stark's death was orchestrated by Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, and Joffrey's by Littlefinger and the Tyrells. By the moment Melisandre burned those leeches, all three conspiracies had already been underway.

Most likely, she saw the deaths in her flames and used this intel to her advantage.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I maintain that "king's blood" should be read completely literally, and not as a synonym of "family" (and Mel got it slightly wrong, as per usual arrangement). The blood that circulates in king's veins. Maybe, maybe his heir's apparent, too, but maybe not even that.

Khal would do, too.

King's great^10-grandson would not. There are thousands, tens of thousands, of those. Maybe more. Too common to have real value.

[estermonty python]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

There's actually 3 Targ Kings/Queens who died/played with fire. 

a- Queen Danny who walked into Drogo's pyre
b- King Viserys who suffered death from hot metal
c-  King Aegon V during the Tragedy at Summerhall

These 3 stories were important enough for GRRM to go in detail about each character. 

Please remind me how many Dragons were awoken?

 

There are more than that.  Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfyre.  Rhaenyra was fed to Sunfyre - which means she was cooked first (dragons don't eat raw meat).  For that matter Quentyn has some Targ blood, and he was roasted pretty damn good.  

There were also something like 7 dragon eggs at Summerhall when Aegon died, and none of them hatched.  So to say that's a stretch is an understatement.  

[estermonty python]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

Armour works wierd in GOT. If full plate armour worked the way it should work then no one would be using swords. Since sword is pretty effective against armour then I guess fire will do the trick too. 

I'm not really sure what this means.  Armor is armor.  Swords are used to attack the peasants who aren't wearing armor, and to attack the weak points in the armor of those who are wearing it.  If you are saying that there are points in the story where a non-VS steel sword pierces armor in an unrealistic way, I'll take you at your word, but I'd chalk that up to poetic license more than steel having different physical properties than in the real world.

[estermonty python]

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We don’t necessarily know that his death didn’t have magical consequences though.

 

This isn't really an argument - you can't prove a negative.  We don't necessarily know that his death didn't cause any number of events.  The question actually is what evidence is there that his death DID have magical consequences?

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Somewhere I read the theory that it was the Summerhall tragedy that awoke the Others. A ruling king was burned there. It may also fit with the timeline of Craster giving sons to the Others.

With the Others being the antithesis of fire, though, I guess I'm having trouble seeing why a fire event would increase the power of ice beings?

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It’s clear that a King’s blood being given to the flames has magical consequences. 

 

2 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Balon Greyjoy was killed by his brother Euron, Robb Stark's death was orchestrated by Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, and Joffrey's by Littlefinger and the Tyrells. By the moment Melisandre burned those leeches, all three conspiracies had already been underway.

Most likely, she saw the deaths in her flames and used this intel to her advantage.

Those 2 perspectives are interesting - one arguing its "clear" that Kings blood given to fire has magical consequences, the other arguing that all of those tragedies were going to happen anyway.  I think - and I'd argue this in the strongest possible terms - this is one of those things that GRRM has left purposefully ambiguous, so that we can argue about it forever.  We know he doesn't have much interest in the power of gods, yet he includes some evidence that something that can be called a god has some kind of power.  How much? How is that power harnessed, and how much is faked by people to gain power of their own?  How much of it is attributable to other events?  I think those are all questions we are supposed to ask ourselves, and debates like, "did the leech burning actually work, did Mel get lucky, or did she know what was going to happen through other means" are ones I think that we will never be able to definitively answer.

[theblackdragonI]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I maintain that "king's blood" should be read completely literally, and not as a synonym of "family" (and Mel got it slightly wrong, as per usual arrangement). The blood that circulates in king's veins. Maybe, maybe his heir's apparent, too, but maybe not even that.

Khal would do, too.

King's great^10-grandson would not. There are thousands, tens of thousands, of those. Maybe more. Too common to have real value.

Yeah this has always confused me, if a man declares himself king is his blood somehow magical? Or is it his descendants? Do Theon and Asha have kings blood? Do all the Starks through Robb? Does Stannis? 

I agree with @Gwindor that Melisandre saw the deaths in her flames and took advantage of Stannis. Although she obviously does believe in sacrifices being better with king's blood. 

[Yukle]

I think the act of burning alone isn't nearly enough. You have to also perform a ritual or spell.

After all, lots of Targaryens died from burning in the Dance of the Dragons.

[Rob Storm]

13 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Somewhere I read the theory that it was the Summerhall tragedy that awoke the Others. A ruling king was burned there. It may also fit with the timeline of Craster giving sons to the Others.

Hmm here comes my crackpot response but how about to go along with this is a Star Wars, kind of a balance to the force Anakin Skywalker idea: that the father of Azor Ahai was born at the same time.  Rhaegar (anakin) was born outside Summerhall as the Others (Sith) were returning.  Luke/Jon then down the road save the universe.  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 hours ago, Gwindor said:

But it can't, actually. It was a trick to gain Stannis' trust.

Balon Greyjoy was killed by his brother Euron, Robb Stark's death was orchestrated by Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, and Joffrey's by Littlefinger and the Tyrells. By the moment Melisandre burned those leeches, all three conspiracies had already been underway.

Most likely, she saw the deaths in her flames and used this intel to her advantage.

Interesting, hadn't thought about it that way.

 

13 hours ago, estermonty python said:

I think - and I'd argue this in the strongest possible terms - this is one of those things that GRRM has left purposefully ambiguous, so that we can argue about it forever.  We know he doesn't have much interest in the power of gods, yet he includes some evidence that something that can be called a god has some kind of power.  How much? How is that power harnessed, and how much is faked by people to gain power of their own?  How much of it is attributable to other events?  I think those are all questions we are supposed to ask ourselves, and debates like, "did the leech burning actually work, did Mel get lucky, or did she know what was going to happen through other means" are ones I think that we will never be able to definitively answer.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. To be honest, I always assumed that the leeches worked, simply because I thought it was too much of a coincidence that all three died; but I hadn't considered the idea that @Gwindor suggested, so fair play. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Hmm here comes my crackpot response but how about to go along with this is a Star Wars, kind of a balance to the force Anakin Skywalker idea: that the father of Azor Ahai was born at the same time.  Rhaegar (anakin) was born outside Summerhall as the Others (Sith) were returning.  Luke/Jon then down the road save the universe.  

All fine, but if GRRM introduces ewoks in A Dream of Spring, I'll lose my shit. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

If king is just a word and king's blood is literaly the king's blood because thousands in westeros are descended of kings... then the only two recent full-on legitimate kings were Aerys and Robert... naah, it's more than that surely