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Wow, I never noticed that v.15


Lost Melnibonean

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There are some interesting parallels between Ned and Jaime in GoT. Consider this:

1) Jaime has pushed Bran from the window.

Ned thinks this regarding it:

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Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

2) Jaime has killed Aerys.

Robert tells to Ned this regarding it:

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 "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me."

3) Jaime has attacked Ned in order to return his brother. Jaime's men slew 3 of Ned's, Ned slew 5 of Jaime's. Then, after all this Robert tells Ned this:

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"No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."

Ned has attacked the three Kingsguards in order to return his sister. Ned and his men slew all 3 of them, the Kingsguards slew 5 of Ned's men. Before the fight starts, Ned says this: 

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"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

 

It can't be just coincidence, especially the third point where the similarities are just too big for it not to be intentional. And if it is intentional, Martin putting the phrase "winter has come" into Jaime's speech out of all characters probably is intentional as well. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It just occurred to me that Ser Cortnay Penrose may well have Targaryen blood, through Princess Elaena.

You're probably right. When you think about it, if Daeron actually was a bastard, that would make Elaena's eldest son the rightful heir to the throne, no? I'm curious which side House Penrose took during the Blackfyre rebellion.

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

3) Jaime has attacked Ned in order to return his brother. Jaime's men slew 3 of Ned's, Ned slew 5 of Jaime's. Then, after all this Robert tells Ned this:

Quote

"No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."

Ned has attacked the three Kingsguards in order to return his sister. Ned and his men slew all 3 of them, the Kingsguards slew 5 of Ned's men. Before the fight starts, Ned says this: 

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

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13 hours ago, Ckram said:

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

It can't be just that because the same number of victims on both sides is independent from the dream and Robert told "No,...Now it ends." after Ned dreamt of saying the exact same thing. Martin is clearly implying something here regarding Jaime and Ned, the question is what? It is really an interesting topic to discuss.

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16 hours ago, Ckram said:

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

It can't be just that because the same number of victims on both sides is independent from the dream and Robert told "No,...Now it ends." after Ned dreamt of saying the exact same thing. Martin is clearly implying something here regarding Jaime and Ned, the question is what? It is really an interesting topic to discuss.

@Kingmonkey discussed some more parallels between that scene and the Tower of Joy in his The Puppets of Ice and Fire post:

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3.The Battle at the Brothel

Another of these echoes takes place before we even get Ned's dream, making it a particularly hard one to spot (credit goes to Pretty Pig, I believe, for picking up on this one). In A Game of Thrones ch. 35, Ned Stark visits a brothel. While there, Ned makes a promise to a girl that her bastard son would not go wanting, she smiled a smile that "cut the heart out of him", and his mind turned to Lyanna, then to Jon, then to Rhaegar. This is an obvious parallel to Ned's meeting with Lyanna, but the Tower of Joy parallel is far from over after that. After leaving the brothel, Eddard is accosted by Jaime, and the scene is rather familiar.

The connections here take a little more digging, but the first is quite clear-cut. Jaime has come to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted while travelling near Harrenhal. Ned went to the ToJ to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted while travelling near Harrenhal. There are other links too. Ned's opponents are cloaked, though in scarlet rather than white. Ned's men are on horses, but the people he fights against are on foot, in life as it was in his dream. There is one Lannister (Jaime) who is not on foot though, as if to draw attention to his horse, which gets mentioned several times. The horse is a "blood bay stallion" or in other words a red stallion, like Lord Dustin's "great red stallion", similarly the only horse described in the ToJ dream.

We have "Ned's men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty" here, like "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. " If you have any doubt about the discrepancy in numbers, ask yourself why GRRM chose to have Ned see the fight in terms of twenty against three when there are actually four men there Ned forgot to count himself. We have "phantoms in red cloaks," familiar from the shadow / mist / wraiths imagery we say in the ToJ and Cersei's dream. Ned is accompanied by Jory Cassel here, as he was accompanied by Jory's father at the tower. Eight men died in the fight, as at the Tower of Joy.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the long play is for Asha to overturn the kingsmoot since Theon was not present, but if Stannis is going to let the Ironmen go, Big Bucket is not gonna be happy...

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The mightiest of the northern clans are the Wulls, the fisherfolk who dwell along the shores of the Bay of Ice. Their hatred of the wildlings is matched only by their hatred of the men of the Iron Islands, who have often raided along the shore of the bay, burning their halls, carrying off their crops, and taking their wives and daughters as thralls and salt wives. 

The North, TWOIAF

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Not a big one, but I never noticed this until a reread today.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

[Ygritte telling Jon the full story of Bael the Bard]
"It never happened," Jon said.
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

[Eddard at the end of his ToJ fever dream]
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.
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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not a big one, but I never noticed this until a reread today.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

[Ygritte telling Jon the full story of Bael the Bard]
"It never happened," Jon said.
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

[Eddard at the end of his ToJ fever dream]
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

Nice. 

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not a big one, but I never noticed this until a reread today.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

[Ygritte telling Jon the full story of Bael the Bard]
"It never happened," Jon said.
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

[Eddard at the end of his ToJ fever dream]
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

Sweet. Can we throw a twist in this and talk about "the darker end to the story" where the song ends when Daenerys finds the babe and kills him because he was unwilling to kill his own kin?

Parallels! They run next to something similar but never actually cross paths ;) 

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4 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Sweet. Can we throw a twist in this and talk about "the darker end to the story" where the song ends when Daenerys finds the babe and kills him because he was unwilling to kill his own kin?

Parallels! They run next to something similar but never actually cross paths ;) 

Right?!? That continuance part from Ygritte has my brain in a twirl. 

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This may be the largest OMG moment I've had. And I have to give major credit to @TMIFairy and @Horse of Kent because this never would have hit me without the discussion the three of us have been having in another thread.

HoK quoted one of Cat's memories of her younger days. Lysa was all excited about them both being pregnant and their sons growing up the best of friends in neighboring kingdoms. Then Lysa got her moonblood.

Why would Lysa be excited about having Jon Arryn's child? She wouldn't. She was still pregnant with Littlefinger's baby when she married Jon. Hoster promised Jon that he'd make sure that baby didn't survive so that Jon could have his own trueborn heir.

It had never occurred to me that Hoster didn't give the moon tea/tansy to Lysa until after the wedding, but this explains so much!
1) Why the abortion/miscarriage nearly killed Lysa--the farther along the pregnancy is the more dangerous it is for the mother.
2) Why Catelyn had no clue what really happened to her sister--she thought Lysa just lost her baby naturally.
3) When you add what we already knew the fact that Lysa could openly grieve but not tell a soul the truth about the depth of her grief and the other reasons behind it, then her watching Catelyn's pregnancy and thinking that Daddy never would have done such a thing to his precious, perfect, Cat, it's amazing Lysa is as sane as she is!

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14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This may be the largest OMG moment I've had. And I have to give major credit to @TMIFairy and @Horse of Kent because this never would have hit me without the discussion the three of us have been having in another thread.

HoK quoted one of Cat's memories of her younger days. Lysa was all excited about them both being pregnant and their sons growing up the best of friends in neighboring kingdoms. Then Lysa got her moonblood.

Why would Lysa be excited about having Jon Arryn's child? She wouldn't. She was still pregnant with Littlefinger's baby when she married Jon. Hoster promised Jon that he'd make sure that baby didn't survive so that Jon could have his own trueborn heir.

It had never occurred to me that Hoster didn't give the moon tea/tansy to Lysa until after the wedding, but this explains so much!
1) Why the abortion/miscarriage nearly killed Lysa--the farther along the pregnancy is the more dangerous it is for the mother.
2) Why Catelyn had no clue what really happened to her sister--she thought Lysa just lost her baby naturally.
3) When you add what we already knew the fact that Lysa could openly grieve but not tell a soul the truth about the depth of her grief and the other reasons behind it, then her watching Catelyn's pregnancy and thinking that Daddy never would have done such a thing to his precious, perfect, Cat, it's amazing Lysa is as sane as she is!

I think it is much more likelier that Lysa's chils had been aborted earlier. There is no way that Lysa would believe that her bastard would be allowed to become the Lord of the Eyrie. Additionally, Jon Arryn had married Lysa hoping to have an heir. If Lysa had still been pregnant at her wedding (and during the short time Jon would have been at Riverrun afterwards), she could not become pregnant with Jon's child. Furthermore, though the amount of time that passed between Lysa getting pregnant by Petyr and Lysa marrying Jon is unknown, the amount of events that occur in between tell us that there there were several months in between the two. So, Lysa would have clearly been showing, and the northern and eastern bannermen would have been able to see so during the bedding ceremony.

 

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5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I think it is much more likelier that Lysa's chils had been aborted earlier. There is no way that Lysa would believe that her bastard would be allowed to become the Lord of the Eyrie. Additionally, Jon Arryn had married Lysa hoping to have an heir. If Lysa had still been pregnant at her wedding (and during the short time Jon would have been at Riverrun afterwards), she could not become pregnant with Jon's child. Furthermore, though the amount of time that passed between Lysa getting pregnant by Petyr and Lysa marrying Jon is unknown, the amount of events that occur in between tell us that there there were several months in between the two. So, Lysa would have clearly been showing, and the northern and eastern bannermen would have been able to see so during the bedding ceremony.

 

This is Lysa we're talking about. She was never all that bright. It was well known that Jon Arryn had no children, and as long as she wasn't told any differently Lysa could easily have assumed that Lord Arryn was willing to claim her child as his. All it really takes is her father not telling her that he's going to kill her child, and we know he tricked her into drinking the moon tea, so that's entirely plausible.

Hoster could also very easily tell his future goodson that he would get rid of the baby while Jon was off at war, paving the way for Jon to get a trueborn heir later. If we don't want to believe that of Jon Arryn, it could still be Hoster's plan without Jon knowing. Look what Hoster did to his own daughter. Do you think he'd hesitate to leave Jon in the dark if he thought it was necessary? 

If Lysa was pregnant with the child of a man she didn't love, after having had her child with the man she did love murdered, then why was she happy and excited about the baby?

Why would moon tea given early in a pregnancy almost kill Lysa when it's perfectly safe for every other woman in Westeros and those north of the Wall? 

A first pregnancy on some women doesn't show until the sixth or even the seventh month. Since we don't know how much time passed between the conception and the double wedding, and we don't know how Lysa carried the first time, there's no way of knowing whether the pregnancy showed at that point or not.

We also know from Tyrion and Sansa's wedding that the bedding ceremony can be skipped. If a man over 60 years old said no bedding ceremony for him and his bride, people would assume he doesn't want everyone seeing him naked, or that he's being very considerate of his shy young bride. Since there was still Ned and Cat's bedding, no one would have cared much.

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28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is Lysa we're talking about. She was never all that bright. It was well known that Jon Arryn had no children, and as long as she wasn't told any differently Lysa could easily have assumed that Lord Arryn was willing to claim her child as his.

Doubtful, imo. As the daughter of a high Lord especially, she would have been aware of the importance blood lines have.

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

All it really takes is her father not telling her that he's going to kill her child, and we know he tricked her into drinking the moon tea, so that's entirely plausible.

Hoster could also very easily tell his future goodson that he would get rid of the baby while Jon was off at war, paving the way for Jon to get a trueborn heir later. If we don't want to believe that of Jon Arryn, it could still be Hoster's plan without Jon knowing. Look what Hoster did to his own daughter. Do you think he'd hesitate to leave Jon in the dark if he thought it was necessary? 

A man who married a girl who had greatly diminished her status by being pregnant with the bastard of a lowborn man (as Westerosi society would see it), because he hoped it would gain him an heir, would not likely be OK with riding off to war, with a reasonable chance of dying in battle, while his wife was still pregnant with another man's child (As it would mean that, if he really died, the Eyrie might actually be inherited by a bastard with no bloodties to House Arryn). 

But Jon did know about the fact that Lysa had conceived. Her proven fertility was an important factor in him agreeing to the marriage. 

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If Lysa was pregnant with the child of a man she didn't love, after having had her child with the man she did love murdered, then why was she happy and excited about the baby?

Because it was her child, her own flesh and blood. She can love her child without loving the father.

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why would moon tea given early in a pregnancy almost kill Lysa when it's perfectly safe for every other woman in Westeros and those north of the Wall? 

Hosted provides us with the answer to that.

“Forgive  me...  the  blood...  oh,  please...  Tansy... "

High doses of tansy causes abortions, and Hoster links the ingredient to the amount of blood Lysa lost during hers. I conclude from Hoster's thoughts on the matter that likely too high a doses was used.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

A first pregnancy on some women doesn't show until the sixth or even the seventh month. Since we don't know how much time passed between the conception and the double wedding, and we don't know how Lysa carried the first time, there's no way of knowing whether the pregnancy showed at that point or not.

But that is more the exception than the rule, no? 

We don't know how much time passed, but so much happened in between (Benson's travels, his execution, Edward traveling from the Vale to the North and from there to the riverlands while Robert fought at the Vale, travelled to Storm's End, Summerhall, SE again, Ashford, and the  on to the riverlands), that it seems clear that a significant amount of time had passed.

 

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We also know from Tyrion and Sansa's wedding that the bedding ceremony can be skipped. If a man over 60 years old said no bedding ceremony for him and his bride, people would assume he doesn't want everyone seeing him naked, or that he's being very considerate of his shy young bride. Since there was still Ned and Cat's bedding, no one would have cared much.

Tyrion's refusal to bed Sansa also demonstrates the problem the absence of a bedding results in, and Tommen's marriage to Margaery emphasizes that further. A marriage  that  has  not  been  consummated  can  be  set  aside.

 

Look at the marriages Hoster wanted to make. Catelyn to the heir of Winterfell, Brynden  to a Redwyne, Lysa to the heir to Casterly Rock, and later Edmure to the heiress of Sunspear. He wanted advantageous marriages for his children and brother. But Lysa's pregnancy, if known to the lords of Westeros, would prevent such a match from ever being accepted. Jon's loss of his heirs presented Hoster with a solution, a d the hastily arranged marriage was the result. But, without a bedding, Jon could still set Lysa aside. So for Hoster, it would have been important to ensure that Jon could not set aside Lysa after the war was done. So it would have been  unlikely that the bedding did not take place.

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32 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Doubtful, imo. As the daughter of a high Lord especially, she would have been aware of the importance blood lines have.

A man who married a girl who had greatly diminished her status by being pregnant with the bastard of a lowborn man (as Westerosi society would see it), because he hoped it would gain him an heir, would not likely be OK with riding off to war, with a reasonable chance of dying in battle, while his wife was still pregnant with another man's child (As it would mean that, if he really died, the Eyrie might actually be inherited by a bastard with no bloodties to House Arryn). 

 

High doses of tansy causes abortions, and Hoster links the ingredient to the amount of blood Lysa lost during hers. I conclude from Hoster's thoughts on the matter that likely too high a doses was used.

 

Look at the marriages Hoster wanted to make. Catelyn to the heir of Winterfell, Brynden  to a Redwyne, Lysa to the heir to Casterly Rock, and later Edmure to the heiress of Sunspear. He wanted advantageous marriages for his children and brother. But Lysa's pregnancy, if known to the lords of Westeros, would prevent such a match from ever being accepted. Jon's loss of his heirs presented Hoster with a solution, a d the hastily arranged marriage was the result. But, without a bedding, Jon could still set Lysa aside. So for Hoster, it would have been important to ensure that Jon could not set aside Lysa after the war was done. So it would have been  unlikely that the bedding did not take place.

Aware sure. That doesn't mean she was thinking of it at all. I think you have a higher opinion of Lysa's ability to be logical than I do.

If he's certain the pregnancy will be ended, it's not an issue. If he's really concerned about dying in the war, he should appoint an heir because there's no guarantee his bride will conceive during the two weeks they have together, especially given his own reproductive record and the fact that she almost died losing her last baby. 

I didn't mean to imply that Lysa wouldn't love her baby with Jon. But I was thinking that she'd have mixed feelings. The new baby would naturally bring up thoughts of the last one, a child she very much wanted. The happiness would be tinged with the grief, and Cat would potentially notice that and remember it. It would add nicely to the part where Cat figures out what her father did.

I conclude that too. What I don't see is why a higher dose than usual would be necessary. A maester made the moon tea, and the recipe seems to be rather well known. Moon tea is used not only as a preventative but also to abort a pregnancy during the early stages. If Lysa's pregnancy is still in the first trimester there's no reason to think the standard dose wouldn't be enough.

That's another thing. If the pregnancy has already ended, and he's certain that no one is going to blab (he, Lysa, and the maester are probably the only ones who know), why not wait and see how the rebellion goes in the hopes that the rebels win and Tywin gets Jaime out of the KG? Faking virginity on the wedding night is entirely doable. Denying rumors is also doable. Arryn is quicker and safer, but Hoster could have held out for a guy more suited to a young girl's fancy, and with more money.

Lack of a bedding ceremony doesn't equal lack of consummation. The actual consummation doesn't take place until after the people leave. It's assumed that the bridal couple will be consummating, of course, but that isn't proof. As long as Jon Arryn did sleep with his bride, that's enough to keep a man of honor from setting the marriage aside later.

But there's certainly room for doubt. So instead of a "never noticed that before" I should probably consider this a theory. And of course it changes nothing in the series either way. It would only serve to make Lysa's story more tragic.

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21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Aware sure. That doesn't mean she was thinking of it at all. I think you have a higher opinion of Lysa's ability to be logical than I do.

I just think that the difference between the girl she once was and the woman she had become is a bit bigger, I suppose :)

21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If he's certain the pregnancy will be ended, it's not an issue. If he's really concerned about dying in the war, he should appoint an heir because there's no guarantee his bride will conceive during the two weeks they have together, especially given his own reproductive record and the fact that she almost died losing her last baby. 

If only it was that easy, he would not need a third wife :)

 

21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I didn't mean to imply that Lysa wouldn't love her baby with Jon. But I was thinking that she'd have mixed feelings. The new baby would naturally bring up thoughts of the last one, a child she very much wanted. The happiness would be tinged with the grief, and Cat would potentially notice that and remember it. It would add nicely to the part where Cat figures out what her father did.

Didn't that grief become aparent when Lysa had her period a few days later? 

21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I conclude that too. What I don't see is why a higher dose than usual would be necessary. A maester made the moon tea, and the recipe seems to be rather well known. Moon tea is used not only as a preventative but also to abort a pregnancy during the early stages. If Lysa's pregnancy is still in the first trimester there's no reason to think the standard dose wouldn't be enough.

Me neither, which is why I suspect that a mistake was made. Perhaps Hoster added more, to be sure it would work.

Also, I can't remember it ever being stated in the books about the stages of pregnancy during which moon tea is still being used?

21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's another thing. If the pregnancy has already ended, and he's certain that no one is going to blab (he, Lysa, and the maester are probably the only ones who know), why not wait and see how the rebellion goes in the hopes that the rebels win and Tywin gets Jaime out of the KG? Faking virginity on the wedding night is entirely doable. Denying rumors is also doable. Arryn is quicker and safer, but Hoster could have held out for a guy more suited to a young girl's fancy, and with more money.

Several reasons. Hoster has no reason to think that Jaime will ask to leave the Kingsguard, nor to think that Jaime will be allowed  to leave the Kingsguard, as no one in history has ever been released of his vows. That's regardless of which side wins, and which side Tywin supports. Tywin has not yet taken a side, and is silent to the pleads of both the king and the rebels. He's an uncertain ally, but has been the king's childhood friend, and powerful supporter for roughly twenty years. Furthermore, his son-in-law-to-be has been murdered by the king, so joining Aerys does not seem a good option for him (how would his bannermen react to such a move?).

It seems that Hoster should have risked a lot to keep the option of Lysa marrying Jaime open (especially since Jaime has sworn his KG vows which prevent him from marrying anyone), while siding with the rebels gave him the opportunity to marry both his daughters to two lords paramounts.

Hoster saw more political gain in the match with Arryn, and in such a case, Lysa's wishes would matter little. 

 

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23 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

<snip

If only it was that easy, he would not need a third wife :)

Didn't that grief become aparent when Lysa had her period a few days later? 

Me neither, which is why I suspect that a mistake was made. Perhaps Hoster added more, to be sure it would work.

Also, I can't remember it ever being stated in the books about the stages of pregnancy during which moon tea is still being used?

Several reasons. Hoster has no reason to think that Jaime will ask to leave the Kingsguard, nor to think that Jaime will be allowed  to leave the Kingsguard, as no one in history has ever been released of his vows. That's regardless of which side wins, and which side Tywin supports. Tywin has not yet taken a side, and is silent to the pleads of both the king and the rebels. He's an uncertain ally, but has been the king's childhood friend, and powerful supporter for roughly twenty years. Furthermore, his son-in-law-to-be has been murdered by the king, so joining Aerys does not seem a good option for him (how would his bannermen react to such a move?).

It seems that Hoster should have risked a lot to keep the option of Lysa marrying Jaime open (especially since Jaime has sworn his KG vows which prevent him from marrying anyone), while siding with the rebels gave him the opportunity to marry both his daughters to two lords paramounts.

Hoster saw more political gain in the match with Arryn, and in such a case, Lysa's wishes would matter little. 

 

Fair point, but he really should have selected at least a temporary heir before going into battle. There was no reason to expect a conception right away with Lysa under the circumstances.

Of course grief would be apparent when she got her moonblood. But there should have been something before then as well. She wouldn't just shut the thought or her first baby out of her mind because she was pregnant with a second (not unless she was already severely emotionally and mentally damaged). There should have been something, a fleeting melancholy maybe.

Okay but if he did that he was monumentally stupid not to trust the maester, who went to school to learn things like this, to brew it at the right strength. And I guess everything in the maester's stores was clearly labeled so Hoster could find the tansy easily. Sure beats the maester committing malpractice. 

Why doesn't Cat seem to have any memory of Lysa at some point being so "ill" that she nearly died? Cat seems to be entirely in the dark when it comes to what was going on with her little sister. Maybe she was just a completely wrapped up in her own issues, but I find it odd that she doesn't seem to remember even the slightest notice of something being off. Don't we all have things that we put aside at the time, but later when everything comes together they click into place? There's nothing like that for Cat. The only thing that clicks is that there's actually a good reason why Lysa hates Daddy. There aren't any puzzle pieces from the past in her mind--all the pieces she gets are from external sources. There's no moment of "Now I remember" or "It didn't seem important at the time." Unless I'm just not remembering something. That is always possible.

It's not explicitly stated. It just makes the most sense. Given that it can be used both before and after conception, it seems most likely that prevention and abortion in the first trimester are what it's designed for, and the closer to the conception the better. Very few women who are going to use moon tea are going to wait until the second trimester to do so. The risks of it not working, the problem of feeling the baby move possibly creating an emotional complication, pains equivalent to natural childbirth if you waited too long, not to mention a tiny body that has to be disposed of, all point toward moon tea being a first trimester measure.

He has reason to believe that Tywin would try to get Jaime out. Everyone knows Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to inherit. It's the worst-kept secret in Westeros. Tywin isn't a man to be stopped by lack of precedent, and when he sets something as his goal he tends to get it. As to whether a KG could be let out of vows, if a maester can be absolved of his vows, why couldn't a KG? This of course is only if the rebels win. It was just as possible that they would lose, so Hoster's clearly willing to take a chance that his girls will be left as the daughters and widows of traitors.

That's one of the smartest moves Tywin made...er...didn't make. If he'd joined the rebels, Aerys likely would have executed Jaime, which is at least one major reason why he didn't join them. But at the same time, he didn't side with Aerys either, for fairly obvious reasons that everyone pretty much knows--the theft of Jame, the refusal of Cersei for Rhaegar, the open lust for Joanna. The mere fact that he isn't joining the King's side leaves open the possibility that should the rebels win he'd be not only attempt and probably succeed in getting Jaime freed, but he'd be open to an alliance with the then victorious rebels. We readers know it wouldn't have worked, but none of the players at the time knew it.

He wasn't thinking very long-term. Cat and Ned was a good match, and could have been reason enough to join the rebels. But between Lysa and Jon the odds of having healthy trueborn heirs in the Vale was not that great. Not to mention that would make her the Lady of the very region where Littlefinger lived. Hoster may have been a great man in many things, but he did not connect all the dots on this one.

Yes. Lysa's wishes never counted with him. It's lucky for Cat that she was content with all of her father's decisions for her future. Not many medieval ladies could say as much. 

 

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Are true faces being hidden at Winterfell?

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell. (AGoT, Bran I)

Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. (AGoT, Catelyn I)

The wealthy septs of the cities had statues of the Seven and an altar to each. In Winterfell, Septon Chayle hung carved masks from each wall. (ACoK, Catelyn IV)

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This one is more a scenario element than a "I never noticed that" fact.

But still, I wanted to share it with you, for the mere and good reason than GRRM is a bloody genius.

So, in Clash, Ygritte tells us a story about this bard Bael who stole lord of WF's daughter :

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"But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon VI, ACOK

Three books later, Mance, who is known as a lover of wilidling music and tales, gets in WF under disguise of a bard.Guess what name he chooses ? Abel, the fucking anagram of Bael :

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"She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . ."

". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well."

Jon VII, ACOK

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He calls himself a bard. In truth he's more a pander. Lord Manderly had brought musicians from White Harbor, but none were singers, so when Abel turned up at the gates with a lute and six women, he had been made welcome. "Two sisters, two daughters, one wife, and my old mother," the singer claimed, though not one looked like him.

The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

But the thing does not end there. Later in Dance, Mance/Abel makes an original version of "The Dornishman's Wife".

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Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into "The Dornishman's Wife," whilst one of his washerwomen beat time on her drum. The singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishman's wife, he sang of tasting a northman's daughter.

The Turncloack, ADWD

What is cool is that :

1) Mance is accurately there to rescue Arya, the "northman's daughter".

2) We know one more character related to Bael the Bard. By his name. It is Petyr fucking Baelish. So, in some manner, I think that Mance's song foreshadows the control Petyr has on Sansa. By kissing her in ASOS, then manipulating her in AFFC, he is "tasting a northman's daughter", isn't he ? ;)

So, I am aware that all this stuff might have been discussed before with even more accuracy, but I has not even finished ADWD yet, and I figured out about these genuinely-built connections only a few days ago... so I decided to share it with you in one of the bare posts that I send around here.

I am hoping to have your thoughts, and wishing you a good night/day ^^

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