Wow, I never noticed that v.15

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Are true faces being hidden at Winterfell?

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell. (AGoT, Bran I)

Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. (AGoT, Catelyn I)

The wealthy septs of the cities had statues of the Seven and an altar to each. In Winterfell, Septon Chayle hung carved masks from each wall. (ACoK, Catelyn IV)

Not yet, but when no one arrives, and that wolf girl returns...

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Sandokan I Ironborn said:

This one is more a scenario element than a "I never noticed that" fact.

But still, I wanted to share it with you, for the mere and good reason than GRRM is a bloody genius.

So, in Clash, Ygritte tells us a story about this bard Bael who stole lord of WF's daughter :

Three books later, Mance, who is known as a lover of wilidling music and tales, gets in WF under disguise of a bard.Guess what name he chooses ? Abel, the fucking anagram of Bael :

But the thing does not end there. Later in Dance, Mance/Abel makes an original version of "The Dornishman's Wife".

What is cool is that :

1) Mance is accurately there to rescue Arya, the "northman's daughter".

2) We know one more character related to Bael the Bard. By his name. It is Petyr fucking Baelish. So, in some manner, I think that Mance's song foreshadows the control Petyr has on Sansa. By kissing her in ASOS, then manipulating her in AFFC, he is "tasting a northman's daughter", isn't he ?

So, I am aware that all this stuff might have been discussed before with even more accuracy, but I has not even finished ADWD yet, and I figured out about these genuinely-built connections only a few days ago... so I decided to share it with you in one of the bare posts that I send around here.

I am hoping to have your thoughts, and wishing you a good night/day ^^

You might like this...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137180-the-dornishmans-wife-foreshadows-abels-fate/

And perhaps this...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143267-the-maiden-fair-and-the-fair-maid-heigh-ho-hey-nonny-hey-sigh-no-more-ladies/

[Ebrose]

I'm in my first complete re-read alongside a friend who's reading for the first time, so I'm trying to catch stuff I hadn't before to "guide" her journey while trying to avoid spoiling her, not unlike the Unspoiled! ASOIAF podcast series (even though she has watched three seasons of the TV show in like five days, so I guess she's quite spoiled anyway...)

In AGOT - Eddard I, I noticed something that, though probably no big deal, made my eyebrows rise: the wording of the "iron swords" in the crypts.

Quote

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. 

I had always assumed the iron swords intended to avoid the "vengeful spirits" of those over whose knees laid a sword leaving their tombs and roaming freely. But... it does not say "their" vengeful spirits, only "the" vengeful spirits, as any vengeful spirit, Lord or not. And, to be honest, I cannot imagine why only the Lords would have "vengeful spirits" that needed to be kept locked! So, in other words, I take it now as meaning the deceased Lords keep their swords to "protect" the crypts, and Winterfell as a whole, from any vengeful spirit that may roam around free.

Anything related with the mystery that surrounds those crypts? Of what might be hidden inside that requires "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"? 

Maybe that's common sense and everyone had interpreted it this way the first time, but it made me change my own interpretation of the scene and its implications.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Ebrose said:

I'm in my first complete re-read alongside a friend who's reading for the first time, so I'm trying to catch stuff I hadn't before to "guide" her journey while trying to avoid spoiling her, not unlike the Unspoiled! ASOIAF podcast series (even though she has watched three seasons of the TV show in like five days, so I guess she's quite spoiled anyway...)

In AGOT - Eddard I, I noticed something that, though probably no big deal, made my eyebrows rise: the wording of the "iron swords" in the crypts.

I had always assumed the iron swords intended to avoid the "vengeful spirits" of those over whose knees laid a sword leaving their tombs and roaming freely. But... it does not say "their" vengeful spirits, only "the" vengeful spirits, as any vengeful spirit, Lord or not. And, to be honest, I cannot imagine why only the Lords would have "vengeful spirits" that needed to be kept locked! So, in other words, I take it now as meaning the deceased Lords keep their swords to "protect" the crypts, and Winterfell as a whole, from any vengeful spirit that may roam around free.

Anything related with the mystery that surrounds those crypts? Of what might be hidden inside that requires "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"? 

Maybe that's common sense and everyone had interpreted it this way the first time, but it made me change my own interpretation of the scene and its implications.

That's an interesting interpretation. I think most of us assume that the swords keep the king's of winter and lords of Winterfell in place, but as you suggest, perhaps the king's and lords need the swords to protect the others. Or maybe it's just a set up for Bran et al. borrowing the swords.  

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 4-9-2017 at 11:41 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Of course grief would be apparent when she got her moonblood. But there should have been something before then as well. She wouldn't just shut the thought or her first baby out of her mind because she was pregnant with a second (not unless she was already severely emotionally and mentally damaged). There should have been something, a fleeting melancholy maybe.

[...] 

Why doesn't Cat seem to have any memory of Lysa at some point being so "ill" that she nearly died? Cat seems to be entirely in the dark when it comes to what was going on with her little sister. Maybe she was just a completely wrapped up in her own issues, but I find it odd that she doesn't seem to remember even the slightest notice of something being off. Don't we all have things that we put aside at the time, but later when everything comes together they click into place? There's nothing like that for Cat. The only thing that clicks is that there's actually a good reason why Lysa hates Daddy. There aren't any puzzle pieces from the past in her mind--all the pieces she gets are from external sources. There's no moment of "Now I remember" or "It didn't seem important at the time." Unless I'm just not remembering something. That is always possible.

That seems to be the likely explanation here. Brandon had just died, after all. Which might also explain the absence of Lysa's grief at an earlier point... Catelyn either didn't remember it, or didn't even notice it (which would be strange, but ok).

 

On 4-9-2017 at 11:41 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He has reason to believe that Tywin would try to get Jaime out. Everyone knows Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to inherit. It's the worst-kept secret in Westeros. Tywin isn't a man to be stopped by lack of precedent, and when he sets something as his goal he tends to get it. As to whether a KG could be let out of vows, if a maester can be absolved of his vows, why couldn't a KG? This of course is only if the rebels win. It was just as possible that they would lose, so Hoster's clearly willing to take a chance that his girls will be left as the daughters and widows of traitors

No. Tywin could ask a favor if the winner, if he had given his support to the winner before the war was decided. And since Tywin had not yet chosen a side, nor would he for months to come, Hoster has no possible way to know who Tywin would support (if any), nor whether the winner would agree to release Jaime from his vows.

And despite the fact that Robert won the war, Jaime still serves in the Kingsguard. So apparently, Tywin giving his aid to the rebels and the rebels winning did not help him. 

 

On 4-9-2017 at 11:41 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He wasn't thinking very long-term. Cat and Ned was a good match, and could have been reason enough to join the rebels. But between Lysa and Jon the odds of having healthy trueborn heirs in the Vale was not that great. Not to mention that would make her the Lady of the very region where Littlefinger lived. Hoster may have been a great man in many things, but he did not connect all the dots on this one.

So? Clearly that didn't stop him. Hoster's main problem with Baelish was his social status, (and how Baelish's intentions did not match up with what his social status allowed), and he had no reason to expect that Baelish would rise so high that he would find himself among the highborns, whether Arryn's court at the Eyrie, or King's Landing.

 

On 4-9-2017 at 11:41 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes. Lysa's wishes never counted with him. It's lucky for Cat that she was content with all of her father's decisions for her future. Not many medieval ladies could say as much. 

Sadly  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That seems to be the likely explanation here. Brandon had just died, after all. Which might also explain the absence of Lysa's grief at an earlier point... Catelyn either didn't remember it, or didn't even notice it (which would be strange, but ok).

 

No. Tywin could ask a favor if the winner, if he had given his support to the winner before the war was decided. And since Tywin had not yet chosen a side, nor would he for months to come, Hoster has no possible way to know who Tywin would support (if any), nor whether the winner would agree to release Jaime from his vows.

And despite the fact that Robert won the war, Jaime still serves in the Kingsguard. So apparently, Tywin giving his aid to the rebels and the rebels winning did not help him. 

 

So? Clearly that didn't stop him. Hoster's main problem with Baelish was his social status, (and how Baelish's intentions did not match up with what his social status allowed), and he had no reason to expect that Baelish would rise so high that he would find himself among the highborns, whether Arryn's court at the Eyrie, or King's Landing.

 

Sadly  

Yeah. She was a teenager.

And when Tywin Lannister asks a favor, the answer tends to be "yes."

Tywin clearly wasn't supporting either side. If he'd been on Team Targ, he would have been hammering the rebels. And he couldn't be Team Rebel because Aerys would have killed Jaime. The fact that he came in at the end is a pretty good indication that he would have come in at the end to help whichever side was going to win. He really pulled a Walder Frey there. He could have been in secret negotiations with the rebels and still backed out if it was clear they were going to lose. As long as he hadn't signed his name to anything, he was still flexible.

But none of the characters could have predicted that Jaime would choose to continue to serve. Well, maybe Cersei could have, but she's not in the decision-making process here. Neither Tywin nor Hoster could have known Jaime would continue in the KG after the war was won by the Rebels.

I know but he should have thought as far as Lysa not letting go of the boy she loved and finding a way to see him (and worse). Maybe it's a case of the typical medieval father having no clue about his kids, or at least his daughters, but it seems like Hoster lacks something in the ability to think out long term problems. He would not make a successful evil overlord. I can't help wondering if Minisa had been around if she would have been able to prevent some of these things from getting so far. Lysa really could have benefited from having a mother through all of that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And when Tywin Lannister asks a favor, the answer tends to be "yes."

Tywin clearly wasn't supporting either side. If he'd been on Team Targ, he would have been hammering the rebels. And he couldn't be Team Rebel because Aerys would have killed Jaime. The fact that he came in at the end is a pretty good indication that he would have come in at the end to help whichever side was going to win. He really pulled a Walder Frey there. He could have been in secret negotiations with the rebels and still backed out if it was clear they were going to lose. As long as he hadn't signed his name to anything, he was still flexible.

But none of the characters could have predicted that Jaime would choose to continue to serve. Well, maybe Cersei could have, but she's not in the decision-making process here. Neither Tywin nor Hoster could have known Jaime would continue in the KG after the war was won by the Rebels.

He most certainly did pull a Walder Frey.

 

But nothing in the text suggests that Tywin has attempted, since the rebellion ended, to get Jaime out of the KG. Sure, he continued to treat and think of Jaime as his heir, but that is not the same. In fact, i think that this passage from Storm suggests that 

Lord  Tywin  glanced  at  Jaime’s stump  again. “You  cannot  serve  in the  Kingsguard  without  a  sword hand  -”

“I  can,”  he  interrupted.  “And  I  will.  There’s  precedent.  I’ll  look in  the  White  Book  and  find  it, if  you  like.  Crippled or  whole,  a  knight  of  the  Kingsguard serves  for  life.”

“Cersei  ended  that  when  she replaced  Ser  Barristan  on  grounds  of  age.  A  suitable gift  to  the Faith  will  persuade  the High  Septon  to  release  you  from  your  vows.  Your  sister  was  foolish  to dismiss  Selmy,  admittedly,  but  now  that  she has  opened  the gates  -”

“-  someone  needs  to  close them  again.”

Cersei's actions have given  Tywin a way to get Jaime out of the KG (although it still requires quite some bribery), but nothing in thw text suggests that Tywin has attempted to get Jaime out before, or that such a discussion had been held before. Tywin might have wanted it, but does not seem to have acted upon it (possibly he thought it would be easier to accomplish once Robert was dead and one of his own grandchildre  sat on the IT).

 

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I know but he should have thought as far as Lysa not letting go of the boy she loved and finding a way to see him (and worse). Maybe it's a case of the typical medieval father having no clue about his kids, or at least his daughters, but it seems like Hoster lacks something in the ability to think out long term problems. He would not make a successful evil overlord. I can't help wondering if Minisa had been around if she would have been able to prevent some of these things from getting so far. Lysa really could have benefited from having a mother through all of that.

I certainly think that it would have made a difference. It might not have been the entire solution, but still..

 

A question for you Why would Hoster alllow Lysa's pregnancy to reach the advanced stage you suggest it reached? If he hoped to ever make a good marriage for Lysa, he could not have her birth a bastard. It would be a stain upon Lysa's honour and his own, and that of House Tully in general.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

<snip

Cersei's actions have given  Tywin a way to get Jaime out of the KG (although it still requires quite some bribery), but nothing in thw text suggests that Tywin has attempted to get Jaime out before, or that such a discussion had been held before. Tywin might have wanted it, but does not seem to have acted upon it (possibly he thought it would be easier to accomplish once Robert was dead and one of his own grandchildre  sat on the IT).

<snip

A question for you Why would Hoster alllow Lysa's pregnancy to reach the advanced stage you suggest it reached? If he hoped to ever make a good marriage for Lysa, he could not have her birth a bastard. It would be a stain upon Lysa's honour and his own, and that of House Tully in general.

I suppose I take it for granted that Tywin made at least a token effort to get Jaime out of the KG at the end of the Rebellion, at least speaking to Jaime about it. Then again, Jaime's having killed Aerys would have complicated matters. Robert was fine with not having had to do it himself, but giving Jaime a pardon and letting him go free would not have gone over well with people like Ned.

One possibility is that he wanted to be absolutely sure of hooking Jon Arryn. The best way to do that is to provide some level of proof that the girl is pregnant. It's hard to do that after the abortion. Sure Hoster would expect to be taken at his word, but can Lord Arryn afford to do that? He's already been through two wives and he's in his sixties. This of course would necessitate Arryn being on in the abortion, which is iffy. I don't like to think of him agreeing to such a course, but if Hoster put him in that position he wouldn't have had much choice because there was no way he could allow some nobody's bastard to rule the Vale. Under those circumstances I could see him asking that the moon tea not be given to her until he was off to war again. No decent man would want to see his wife go through that, even if he felt it was necessary, and even if she was just a wife of convenience. Jon Arryn could face difficult choices and lose-lose situations, but I've never gotten the feeling that he was callous or unfeeling toward anyone, and I'm sure he was good to Lysa.

Also any maester worth his salt should have been able to warn Hoster that the level of damage done to Lysa (no matter the trimester) might make it impossible for her to conceive for a while. Her body would have needed time to recover from the trauma. I wouldn't say they'd know about the long term damage but the short term should be easy enough to see coming. So I have an issue with Hoster foisting a reproductively-damaged Lysa on the heir-needing Jon Arryn as if everything will be fine and the two of them will have a castle full of babies in no time...assuming he survives and the rebellion is successful. I don't hold Hoster in very high esteem but I'm not sure he's bold enough to deliberately deceive Jon Arryn. I can absolutely see him deceiving Lysa because he could rationalize that as her father it's his duty to protect her from herself and make sure certain things happen "for her own good." 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

One possibility is that he wanted to be absolutely sure of hooking Jon Arryn. The best way to do that is to provide some level of proof that the girl is pregnant. It's hard to do that after the abortion. Sure Hoster would expect to be taken at his word, but can Lord Arryn afford to do that? He's already been through two wives and he's in his sixties. This of course would necessitate Arryn being on in the abortion, which is iffy. I don't like to think of him agreeing to such a course, but if Hoster put him in that position he wouldn't have had much choice because there was no way he could allow some nobody's bastard to rule the Vale. Under those circumstances I could see him asking that the moon tea not be given to her until he was off to war again. No decent man would want to see his wife go through that, even if he felt it was necessary, and even if she was just a wife of convenience. Jon Arryn could face difficult choices and lose-lose situations, but I've never gotten the feeling that he was callous or unfeeling toward anyone, and I'm sure he was good to Lysa.

But Jon Arryn was not in need of an heir until the Battle of the Bells. So in order for Hoster to allow Lysa's pregnancy to continue as long as that, Hoster would have needed to know that Jon's two heirs would die within the next few months (one during the battle, the other executed at KL by Aerys).

.

19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Also any maester worth his salt should have been able to warn Hoster that the level of damage done to Lysa (no matter the trimester) might make it impossible for her to conceive for a while. Her body would have needed time to recover from the trauma. I wouldn't say they'd know about the long term damage but the short term should be easy enough to see coming. So I have an issue with Hoster foisting a reproductively-damaged Lysa on the heir-needing Jon Arryn as if everything will be fine and the two of them will have a castle full of babies in no time...assuming he survives and the rebellion is successful. I don't hold Hoster in very high esteem but I'm not sure he's bold enough to deliberately deceive Jon Arryn. I can absolutely see him deceiving Lysa because he could rationalize that as her father it's his duty to protect her from herself and make sure certain things happen "for her own good." 

If asked, sure. But I don't think it's logical for Hoster to ask his maester about the amount of tansy he can use, without having the maester prepare the entire substance with said amount of tansy. So either the maester warned Hoster about the maximum amount of tansy, and Hoster stubbornly decided to ignore it, or Hoster added more himself without consulting the maester, I suppose.

 

[Ethenil]

From Catelyn's fourth chapter in A Clash of Kings, she goes to a Sept in a small town after she meets Stannis with Renly. 

Quote

She wonders if Eddard Stark’s gods ever answered him, and looks around. The Father’s face reminds her of her dying father Hoster Tully, the Warrior of Renly Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Robert Baratheon, Robb, Jaime Lannister, Jon Snow, and for a second she sees Arya. The smoke burns her eyes, and, after rubbing them, she sees her mother Minisa Tully, who died in childbirth, in the face of the Mother. When her head starts swimming, she realizes she has not eaten today; food lost its savor when Ned died. Then she thinks she can see Lysa’s face, but the eyes are too hard; it is the face of Cersei.

This foreshadows the revelation that it was Lysa who poisoned Jon Arryn, not Cersei, whom Catelyn believes. 

 

I wonder what other hints and foreshadowings are in that same scene? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 9/9/2017 at 7:09 PM, Ethenil said:

From Catelyn's fourth chapter in A Clash of Kings, she goes to a Sept in a small town after she meets Stannis with Renly. 

This foreshadows the revelation that it was Lysa who poisoned Jon Arryn, not Cersei, whom Catelyn believes. 

 

I wonder what other hints and foreshadowings are in that same scene? 

Hey, that's good. I mean really good. You might like these threads too. 

[Ethenil]

44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey, that's good. I mean really good. You might like these threads too. 

Ah, thanks! For some reason I didn't see that thread. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Ethenil said:

Ah, thanks! For some reason I didn't see that thread. 

It was a great thread a couple years ago, but a lot of the folks who have been around that long have seen most of what goes in there. Still, I think it would be cool to see some of the newer faces have fun with all the foreshadowing since so many are new to it. 

[vox umbrarum]

very minor find in acok

Quote

"Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower."

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once he should say that whenever a lady told him her name.

I like this bit. So far as I recall it's the only specific, genuinely fond memory Jon had of interacting with Sansa. Especially since she always makes sure to refer to him as her half-brother. Also I just find it incredibly funny to imagine a adolescent Jon going to Sansa with his girl questions.

[Shmedricko]

I recently saw this connection made elsewhere:

Quote

"Chett," said Small Paul as they trudged along a stony game trail through sentinels and soldier pines, "what about the bird?"

"What bloody bird?" The last thing he needed now was some mutton-head going on about a bird.

"The Old Bear's raven," Small Paul said. "If we kill him, who's going to feed his bird?" (Prologue, ASOS)

Quote

"Girls," squawked Mormont's raven. "Girls, girls."

That set Tormund to laughing all over again. "Now there's a bird with sense. How much do you want for him, Snow? I gave you a son, the least you could do is give me the bloody bird." (Jon XIII, ADWD)

Bloody Bird = Mormont's Raven = Bloodraven

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

I recently saw this connection made elsewhere:

Bloody Bird = Mormont's Raven = Bloodraven

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/9/2017 at 4:40 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

But Jon Arryn was not in need of an heir until the Battle of the Bells. So in order for Hoster to allow Lysa's pregnancy to continue as long as that, Hoster would have needed to know that Jon's two heirs would die within the next few months (one during the battle, the other executed at KL by Aerys).

.

If asked, sure. But I don't think it's logical for Hoster to ask his maester about the amount of tansy he can use, without having the maester prepare the entire substance with said amount of tansy. So either the maester warned Hoster about the maximum amount of tansy, and Hoster stubbornly decided to ignore it, or Hoster added more himself without consulting the maester, I suppose.

 

Well Elbert died in KL long before the Battle of the Bells, so I don't think we can count him in the equation really. It's not unreasonable to assume that the other heir, if riding into battle, would be in danger and could end up dead. And most medieval men would prefer leaving their holdings to their own son regardless.

If Jon just wanted to leave everything to some random relative, I'm sure there are cousins around...Harry the Heir for one. If Jon was in the market for a wife at all, it was because he was still hoping for a son, and he'd struck out with the first two wives. Medieval knowledge being what it was, no doubt the wives were considered at fault, so a pregnant girl would look at least half-way capable of producing an heir. It just seems like an easier sell than "My daughter was pregnant, I promise." If Jon didn't want to marry the girl he could have betrothed or married her to the other heir who went into battle with him.

Then of course there's the fraud aspect of Hoster letting Jon think he's getting a perfectly fertile bride when in reality the damage done was going to prevent pregnancy for a long time to come. I don't think there was any way Hoster or anyone else could know how long, but considering she nearly died, it seems pretty obvious that her body would need time to recover.

Do we have any information about when the rebels first made contact with Hoster, or he with them? I'm wondering how that went down. Did he raven Ned and offer Catelyn? Did he ask if Ned knew a single guy who needed a wife? How did the whole make Jon Arryn marry Lysa thing come down, and when did Hoster get the idea?

I would definitely say Hoster added it without consulting the maester. Maybe chatted him up while he was working, got him to mention the ingredients and what they did, and then sneaked into the lab (or whatever) and put more tansy in. But I don't see why he'd feel the need to do that, when the moon tea is already known to work fine. I can understand him wanting to be sure. I just don't understand why he would doubt that it would work as it was.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something that I hadn't considered when I first read the series was that Varys was probably so devoted to helping Tyrion in ACOK because he believed that Aegon would have a better chance of defeating the Lannisters upon landing in Westeros than he would Stannis. If Tyrion hadn't done it himself, I'm guessing Varys would have found a way to kill off Tywin soon enough, as well. 

[rotting sea cow]

Two little things that somehow I misremembered

- Steelshanks Walton didn't participate in the Red Wedding, he was delivering Jaime to King Landing

- Tyrion didn't know that Ice was reforged into two swords until he saw that Ilyn Pyne had another sword (Tyrion didn't ask Tywin from where came the steel for these two swords and Tywin didn't tell)

 

[rotting sea cow]

"He (Euron) is here," Victarion told the Barber. "Drop sail. We proceed on oars alone. Command Grief and Iron Vengeance to stand between Silence and the sea.

- The Iron Captain, AFFC

Later, at the other side of the World

"Grief appeared alone at daybreak, her black sails stark against the pale pink skies of morning. "

- The Iron Suitor, ADWD

Where is Iron Vengeance? Only Grief shows up. Poor Victarion