Lost Melnibonean

Wow, I never noticed that v.15

366 posts in this topic

There are some interesting parallels between Ned and Jaime in GoT. Consider this:

1) Jaime has pushed Bran from the window.

Ned thinks this regarding it:

Quote

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

2) Jaime has killed Aerys.

Robert tells to Ned this regarding it:

Quote

 "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me."

3) Jaime has attacked Ned in order to return his brother. Jaime's men slew 3 of Ned's, Ned slew 5 of Jaime's. Then, after all this Robert tells Ned this:

Quote

"No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."

Ned has attacked the three Kingsguards in order to return his sister. Ned and his men slew all 3 of them, the Kingsguards slew 5 of Ned's men. Before the fight starts, Ned says this: 

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

 

It can't be just coincidence, especially the third point where the similarities are just too big for it not to be intentional. And if it is intentional, Martin putting the phrase "winter has come" into Jaime's speech out of all characters probably is intentional as well. 

Edited by Dofs

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It just occurred to me that Ser Cortnay Penrose may well have Targaryen blood, through Princess Elaena.

You're probably right. When you think about it, if Daeron actually was a bastard, that would make Elaena's eldest son the rightful heir to the throne, no? I'm curious which side House Penrose took during the Blackfyre rebellion.

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

3) Jaime has attacked Ned in order to return his brother. Jaime's men slew 3 of Ned's, Ned slew 5 of Jaime's. Then, after all this Robert tells Ned this:

Quote

"No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."

Ned has attacked the three Kingsguards in order to return his sister. Ned and his men slew all 3 of them, the Kingsguards slew 5 of Ned's men. Before the fight starts, Ned says this: 

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

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13 hours ago, Ckram said:

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

It can't be just that because the same number of victims on both sides is independent from the dream and Robert told "No,...Now it ends." after Ned dreamt of saying the exact same thing. Martin is clearly implying something here regarding Jaime and Ned, the question is what? It is really an interesting topic to discuss.

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16 hours ago, Ckram said:

This deserves it's own thread. People on reddit even think it indicates that Ned's fever dream was influencied by King Landing's events, which sounds like an oddly good theory.

2 hours ago, Dofs said:

It can't be just that because the same number of victims on both sides is independent from the dream and Robert told "No,...Now it ends." after Ned dreamt of saying the exact same thing. Martin is clearly implying something here regarding Jaime and Ned, the question is what? It is really an interesting topic to discuss.

@Kingmonkey discussed some more parallels between that scene and the Tower of Joy in his The Puppets of Ice and Fire post:

Quote

3.The Battle at the Brothel

Another of these echoes takes place before we even get Ned's dream, making it a particularly hard one to spot (credit goes to Pretty Pig, I believe, for picking up on this one). In A Game of Thrones ch. 35, Ned Stark visits a brothel. While there, Ned makes a promise to a girl that her bastard son would not go wanting, she smiled a smile that "cut the heart out of him", and his mind turned to Lyanna, then to Jon, then to Rhaegar. This is an obvious parallel to Ned's meeting with Lyanna, but the Tower of Joy parallel is far from over after that. After leaving the brothel, Eddard is accosted by Jaime, and the scene is rather familiar.

The connections here take a little more digging, but the first is quite clear-cut. Jaime has come to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted while travelling near Harrenhal. Ned went to the ToJ to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted while travelling near Harrenhal. There are other links too. Ned's opponents are cloaked, though in scarlet rather than white. Ned's men are on horses, but the people he fights against are on foot, in life as it was in his dream. There is one Lannister (Jaime) who is not on foot though, as if to draw attention to his horse, which gets mentioned several times. The horse is a "blood bay stallion" or in other words a red stallion, like Lord Dustin's "great red stallion", similarly the only horse described in the ToJ dream.

We have "Ned's men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty" here, like "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. " If you have any doubt about the discrepancy in numbers, ask yourself why GRRM chose to have Ned see the fight in terms of twenty against three when there are actually four men there Ned forgot to count himself. We have "phantoms in red cloaks," familiar from the shadow / mist / wraiths imagery we say in the ToJ and Cersei's dream. Ned is accompanied by Jory Cassel here, as he was accompanied by Jory's father at the tower. Eight men died in the fight, as at the Tower of Joy.

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