LmL

Skinchanger Zombies: Jon, the Last Hero, and Coldhands

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Hey here friends and family. I got some fresh mythical astronomy for you, except there's actually no astronomy and you don't need to have read any of my previous writings. This is all about Jon Snow's destiny to become a resurrected skinchanger, how that works and most of all, why that is important.  

In the course of exploring this topic, I discovered that all of the horned god ideas in ASOIAF, such as the antler-helmed Baratheon Storm Lords (and the Durrandon Storm Kings before them), Garth the Green, and the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces, are tightly intertwined with all of the zombie action in the series.  In fact, I have found that the zombies really need to be viewed within the context of the death-and-resurrection cycle of the horned god, the green man, and other corn-king fertility gods who die in the fall or winter and resurrect again to bring the spring. ASOIAF is full of nature-cycle mythologies, with the corn king / horned god characters being but one example of such, and the big, fat problem in this world is the idea of the seasons getting stuck on winter - that's when the Long Night falls and the Others come. Ergo, our heroes (like Jon and the original last hero) need to achieve the fertility god task of turning the seasons, which the fertility god always accomplishes through death and resurrection. That's one of the reason why Jon is dead right now.

As for the zombies, they are emblematic of a violation of the life cycle, just as the Long Night violates the nature cycle and the day / night cycle. But the thing is, our heroic deeds much be performed during the Long Night, during the winter, and during the winter the fertility god is dead. And that's why... we need a hero who is dead, or rather undead. That is going to be Jon this time, and in the past, I believe it was the last hero - meaning, I believe the last hero was also a skinchanger zombie like Jon is about to be.

The skinchanger part is important, because I believe the ability of a skinchanger's soul to be temporarily stored in his or her animal may enable the creation of a better zombie than, say, Beric or lady Stoneheart.  I'll get into all of that in the essay, plus my take on how Coldhands fits into this and why I believe he is a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer who can still access his greenseer magic. As usual, you can choose to read the essay version or listen to the podcast version.  The essay version is right here at lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and the podcast can be found at the same link or in iTunes. I also have some pictures of a great elk, which are truly terrifying beasts - you need to click the link for the elk pictures alone, trust me.

Cheers everyone and I look forward to hearing your take. Part 2 is actually out already, and Part 3 is in the works - originally, it was all one episode which I split in parts. Part 2 Focuses on the King of Winter anyhow he overlaps with the last hero and Azor Ahai, as well as garth and the Green Men. Part 3 will deal with the idea of an undead company of Night's Watch brothers, which is what I think the last hero's party of 12 companions were. 

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9 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I couldn't find last Mythical Astronomy thread, so I'll just drop it here:

From GOT:

"Sandor Clegane and his immense brother, Ser Gregor the Mountain, seemed unstoppable as well, riding down one foe after the next in ferocious style. The most terrifying moment of the day came during Ser Gregor's second joust, when his lance rode up and struck a young knight from the Vale under the gorget with such force that it drove through his throat, killing him instantly. The youth fell not ten feet from where Sansa was seated. The point of Ser Gregor's lance had snapped off in his neck, and his life's blood flowed out in slow pulses, each weaker than the one before. His armor was shiny new; a bright streak of fire ran down his outstretched arm, as the steel caught the light. Then the sun went behind a cloud, and it was gone. His cloak was blue, the color of the sky on a clear summer's day, trimmed with a border of crescent moons, but as his blood seeped into it, the cloth darkened and the moons turned red, one by one"

"The ascent was easier than Catelyn had dared hope. The trees pressed close, leaning over the path to make a rustling green roof that shut out even the moon, so it seemed as though they were moving up a long black tunnel. But the mules were surefooted and tireless, and Mya Stone did indeed seem blessed with night-eyes. They plodded upward, winding their way back and forth across the face of the mountain as the steps twisted and turned. "

Trees shut out the moon...

The sun was well above the mountains by the time Catelyn Stark finally reached the Eyrie. A stocky, silver-haired man in a sky-blue cloak and hammered moon-and-falcon breastplate helped her from the basket; Ser Vardis Egen, captain of Jon Arryn's household guard. 

Hammered moon... by falcon (it seems falcon's symbolism is the same as dragon's - makes sense when you look at Rhaenyra's sigil)

Hey @Blue Tiger, always great to hear from you. You have some good quote here. In the Cat quote, yes - the trees are shutting out the moon - the horned moon, by the way, in that scene, if I recall. 

The falcon would indeed be theocrat in this equation, so yeah, moon and comet, hammed moon, very nice. Hadn't caught the hammered moon part... I will be doing a full breakdown on the ice moon fortress the Eyrie sometimes soon, I'll file that one away.

As for the Mountain Gregor and the Giant's Lance, yeah, that's a whole thing right there. Turing the moons red with blood is pretty sweet (note the multiple moons). The confusing thing is that Gregor plays a battered moon-turned falling moon meteor (the stone fist) in the fight with Oberyn, but here he seems like the comet. I think what is happening is that he is playing out the role of a moon meteor from the fire moon hitting the ice moon (played by Ser Hugh of the Vale). I keep seeing this - a bit of the destroyed second moon shrapnel hitting the s surviving moon (which I think is the ice moon). Sansa is like a fire moon maiden stuck in the icy Vale, same deal. The giant's lance is a piece of the fire moon which breaks off inside the ice moon, just as gregor's lance breaks off in Ser Hugh, and just as the Giant's Lance is a mountain of dark stone lodged inside the icy white vale.

My theory about this pattern is that a piece of fire moon inside the ice moon is the reason why the Others are animated by burning cold blue star mojo, and why their sort of cold burns. It's like they stalled a star fire and turned it cold. So, what I have predicted is another moon disaster - the red comet returns, hist the ice moon, perhaps freeing the Giant's Lance. As everything acts in parallel, a moon meteor impact could shake loose the ice and snow from the Giant's Lance mountain and give us a matching avalanche. I also expect this would be when the Wall falls (something we all expect) and when a new Long Night falls (something else we all expect).  

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So, I am waiting on part three, but I wanted to throw out there that I think the argument for  Colhands being a greenseer is pretty strong. That said, Jon has not fully developed his warging abilities and is not likely to have the greenseer potential that Bran has shown. It is possible that his a greenseer type resurrection could be in the works for him via Bran's interference, but we already have Melisandre at the Wall. While being a greenseer zombie might be useful in fighting the Others, being resurrected by the fires of R'hllor would have much of the same effects. Melisandre doesn't need to eat. Beric according to Arya doesn't eat and only occasionally drinks wine. Melisandre needs very little sleep. Beric doesn't sleep according Arya. Melisandre at the very least seems highly resistant to the cold, and well Beric has black smokey fire blood. I think all of the key advantages are covered with a fire resurrection.

 

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3 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, I am waiting on part three, but I wanted to throw out there that I think the argument for  Colhands being a greenseer is pretty strong. That said, Jon has not fully developed his warging abilities and is not likely to have the greenseer potential that Bran has shown. It is possible that his a greenseer type resurrection could be in the works for him via Bran's interference, but we already have Melisandre at the Wall. While being a greenseer zombie might be useful in fighting the Others, being resurrected by the fires of R'hllor would have much of the same effects. Melisandre doesn't need to eat. Beric according to Arya doesn't eat and only occasionally drinks wine. Melisandre needs very little sleep. Beric doesn't sleep according Arya. Melisandre at the very least seems highly resistant to the cold, and well Beric has black smokey fire blood. I think all of the key advantages are covered with a fire resurrection.

 

Indeed, and that's why I like a fire resurrection for Jon – but the problem with Beric is that he is deteriorated, and the same is true for Stoneheart. I believe that Jon being a skin changer will preserve him through the death state, enabling a better zombie. It's kind of a separate elements from the actual method of resurrection. 

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I think the CoK scene with Bran reaching Jon via Ghost lays the foundation for a skinchanger revival. It could be a dual resurrection, with the body repaired by fire and the "spirit" by Bran/Ghost.

Edited by cgrav

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9 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think the CoK scene with Bran reaching Jon via Ghost lays the foundation for a skinchanger revival. It could be a dual resurrection, with the body repaired by fire and the "spirit" by Bran/Ghost.

That sounds good to me, and that's what I think is most likely, some combination of fire magic and Bran magic. I'll have to reread that sequence again, it's come up a couple of times in the discussion of these ideas. 

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9 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey @Blue Tiger, always great to hear from you. You have some good quote here. In the Cat quote, yes - the trees are shutting out the moon - the horned moon, by the way, in that scene, if I recall. 

The falcon would indeed be theocrat in this equation, so yeah, moon and comet, hammed moon, very nice. Hadn't caught the hammered moon part... I will be doing a full breakdown on the ice moon fortress the Eyrie sometimes soon, I'll file that one away.

As for the Mountain Gregor and the Giant's Lance, yeah, that's a whole thing right there. Turing the moons red with blood is pretty sweet (note the multiple moons). The confusing thing is that Gregor plays a battered moon-turned falling moon meteor (the stone fist) in the fight with Oberyn, but here he seems like the comet. I think what is happening is that he is playing out the role of a moon meteor from the fire moon hitting the ice moon (played by Ser Hugh of the Vale). I keep seeing this - a bit of the destroyed second moon shrapnel hitting the s surviving moon (which I think is the ice moon). Sansa is like a fire moon maiden stuck in the icy Vale, same deal. The giant's lance is a piece of the fire moon which breaks off inside the ice moon, just as gregor's lance breaks off in Ser Hugh, and just as the Giant's Lance is a mountain of dark stone lodged inside the icy white vale.

My theory about this pattern is that a piece of fire moon inside the ice moon is the reason why the Others are animated by burning cold blue star mojo, and why their sort of cold burns. It's like they stalled a star fire and turned it cold. So, what I have predicted is another moon disaster - the red comet returns, hist the ice moon, perhaps freeing the Giant's Lance. As everything acts in parallel, a moon meteor impact could shake loose the ice and snow from the Giant's Lance mountain and give us a matching avalanche. I also expect this would be when the Wall falls (something we all expect) and when a new Long Night falls (something else we all expect).  

I've seen you refer to Sansa as a fire moon maiden before.  I guess that makes Arya an ice moon maiden?  I'm curious, could Sansa and Arya also be some sort of sun and moon figures, respectively?  Ned compares them to the Sun  and Moon himself in Games.  Brienne, who has sworn to protect them, is of House Tarth,  whose sigil is two suns and two moons.  And LF compares Sansa's eyes to that of the day's sky in Feast. 

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13 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I've seen you refer to Sansa as a fire moon maiden before.  I guess that makes Arya an ice moon maiden?  I'm curious, could Sansa and Arya also be some sort of sun and moon figures, respectively?  Ned compares them to the Sun  and Moon himself in Games.  Brienne, who has sworn to protect them, is of House Tarth,  whose sigil is two suns and two moons.  And LF compares Sansa's eyes to that of the day's sky in Feast. 

No, actually. Sansa is like a piece of fire moon that turns into the ice moon or becomes a part of the ice  moon, while Arya represents a death goddess– which would be Azor Ahai reborn – the black meteor. That's why she's a dark  heart and a blood child. I suppose you could view her as a solar character turned into the dark sun – all of her cat symbolism lends itself to that. 

Edited by LmL

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There are more than three Stark children, so we know it doesn't work out as neatly as one sun and two moons. For the most part, Arya is identified with the black meteors, which is the part of the AA character that represents the desth god or death goddess. The death messenger. Dark wings dark words etc. 

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3 hours ago, LmL said:

Indeed, and that's why I like a fire resurrection for Jon – but the problem with Beric is that he is deteriorated, and the same is true for Stoneheart. I believe that Jon being a skin changer will preserve him through the death state, enabling a better zombie. It's kind of a separate elements from the actual method of resurrection. 

It depends on what you mean by deteriorating. I don't think we have evidence of physical deterioration beyond what happened before they are resurrected. We have no view of LSH's internal mental state, but we have ample evidence from Beric that his memories are deteriorating, and in his own words "fire consumes" so I would tend to agree that one may not be able to last in this state for as long as Coldhands has hypothetically been roaming the frozen wastes, without losing one's mind completely. However, Mel has lasted in this state for quite some time, though maybe not as long as Coldhands, and she still seems to have her mind, though maybe not all of her memories (we only have the one pov). Granting the possibility that Mel's transformation has been more incremental and may not have involved dying and being resurrected and the possibility that her magical training may be a mitigating factor, she may not be our best guide.

I actually see a possibility for a three part resurrection here. Green magic would not seem sufficient to preserve memories, as skin changers living a second life lose much of their memories as they merge with the animal, but as Aemon said, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." I'm not sure how it wold play out, but I see Jon being preserved by cold magic, revived by fire magic, and being returned to his body by green magic. I think  of the three forks of the Trident, Red, Blue, and Green flowing into the joined river. I can't back this up of course.

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Hmmm....

From Wikipedia:

"In the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, andHeimskringla, Hel is referred to as a daughter of Loki, and to "go to Hel" is to die. In theProse Edda book Gylfaginning, Hel is described as having been appointed by the god Odin as ruler of a realm of the same name, located in Niflheim. In the same source, her appearance is described as half blue and half flesh-coloured and further as having a gloomy, downcast appearance. The Prose Edda details that Hel rules over vast mansions with many servants in her underworld realm and plays a key role in the attempted resurrection of the god Baldr."

sounds like Night King's corpse queen.

And if indeed Ned is Hades - Sunray's essay convinces me (btw huge thanks @sweetsunray, your Mythical Wave is great - and lexocon extremly useful for me) - than Arya might be a death goddess as well.

Hel owns a hound - in some versions a wolf - Garmr. That means 'rag'.

Hel is daughter of Loki - wolf Fenrir and serpent Jormungard  are her brothers.

 

Here are quotes:

"What were you doing to that cat, boy?" Myrcella asked again, sternly. To her brother she said, "He's a ragged boy, isn't he? Look at him." She giggled.
"A ragged dirty smelly boy," Tommen agreed.

 

She found herself standing at the mouth of a sewer where it emptied into the river. She stank so badly that she stripped right there, dropping her soiled clothing on the riverbank as she dove into the deep black waters. She swam until she felt clean, and crawled out shivering. Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice.  - she must have looked like a corpse

Arya looked down at her ragged clothes and bare feet, all cracked and callused. She saw the dirt under her nails, the scabs on her elbows, the scratches on her hands. Septa Mordane wouldn't even know me, I bet. Sansa might, but she'd pretend not to. "My mother's a lady, and my sister, but I never was."

 

Lady Smallwood welcomed the outlaws kindly enough, though she gave them a tongue lashing for dragging a young girl through the war. She became even more wroth when Lem let slip that Arya was highborn. "Who dressed the poor child in those Bolton rags?" she demanded of them.

 

"I heard the same thing from my cousin, and she's not the sort to lie," an old woman said. "She says there's this great pack, hundreds of them, mankillers. The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell."

 

"It's what you yelled that matters. I told Hot Pie he should clean the wax out of his ears, that all you yelled was Go to hell! If he asks you, you better say the same."

 

"I will," she said, even though she thought go to hell was a stupid thing to yell. She didn't dare tell Hot Pie who she really was. Maybe I should say Hot Pie's name to Jaqen.  - Arya's battlecry Winterfell becomes 'Go to hell' - idk if this is supposed to mean that WF is hell/underworld kind of place or if Arya is Hel

She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"

 

"She broke my nose." Lem dumped her unceremoniously to the floor. "Who in seven hells is she supposed to be?"

 

The Hound answered. "Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff's pretty sword in the river." He gave a bark of laughter. "Don't you know you're dead?"  - not seven, only one Hel

 

His arm, Arya thought, and his face. But he was the Hound. He deserved to burn in a fiery hell. The knife felt heavy in her hand. She gripped it tighter. "You killed Mycah," she said once more, daring him to deny it. "Tell them. You did. You did."  - you're doing it wrong Arya, your hell should be frozen

 

Lem grabbed her wrist and twisted, wrenching the dagger away. She kicked at him, but he would not give it back. "You go to hell, Hound," she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. "You just go to hell!"  - if Hound went to hell he'd be Garmr for Arya

The Hound reined up so suddenly that she almost fell off the wayn. "Seven bloody buggering hells," Arya heard him curse, as their left wheel began to sink in soft mud. The wayn tilted slowly. "Get down," Clegane roared at her, slamming the heel of his hand into her shoulder to knock her sideways. She landed light, the way Syrio had taught her, and bounced up at once with a face full of mud. "Why did you do that?" she screamed. The Hound had leapt down as well. He tore the seat off the front of the wayn and reached in for the swordbelt he'd hidden beneath it.

 

His shipmates looked at him and laughed. "Seven hells, boy," said one of them. "Might be the captain could get hisself a courty-san, but only if he sold the bloody ship. That sort o' cunt's for lords and such, not for the likes o' us."

 

 

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"  

There are many more examples, but those above seemed to show it the most clearly.

 

Edit: hmm... the only time word Garm appears in ASOIAF is name of Garmund Hightower.

Edited by Blue Tiger

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32 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

It depends on what you mean by deteriorating. I don't think we have evidence of physical deterioration beyond what happened before they are resurrected. We have no view of LSH's internal mental state, but we have ample evidence from Beric that his memories are deteriorating, and in his own words "fire consumes" so I would tend to agree that one may not be able to last in this state for as long as Coldhands has hypothetically been roaming the frozen wastes, without losing one's mind completely. However, Mel has lasted in this state for quite some time, though maybe not as long as Coldhands, and she still seems to have her mind, though maybe not all of her memories (we only have the one pov). Granting the possibility that Mel's transformation has been more incremental and may not have involved dying and being resurrected and the possibility that her magical training may be a mitigating factor, she may not be our best guide.

I actually see a possibility for a three part resurrection here. Green magic would not seem sufficient to preserve memories, as skin changers living a second life lose much of their memories as they merge with the animal, but as Aemon said, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." I'm not sure how it wold play out, but I see Jon being preserved by cold magic, revived by fire magic, and being returned to his body by green magic. I think  of the three forks of the Trident, Red, Blue, and Green flowing into the joined river. I can't back this up of course.

Right on, I could get behind something like that. I kind of beat around that bush a little bit, suggesting that perhaps Jon's body will first to be wighted by cold magic, and then purified with fire – that is, the Others possession– magic would be exercised from the corpse with fire. I also echoed Radio Westeros in suggesting that Bran would be involved somehow… That's probably the most mysterious component. 

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30 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Hmmm....

From Wikipedia:

"In the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, andHeimskringla, Hel is referred to as a daughter of Loki, and to "go to Hel" is to die. In theProse Edda book Gylfaginning, Hel is described as having been appointed by the god Odin as ruler of a realm of the same name, located in Niflheim. In the same source, her appearance is described as half blue and half flesh-coloured and further as having a gloomy, downcast appearance. The Prose Edda details that Hel rules over vast mansions with many servants in her underworld realm and plays a key role in the attempted resurrection of the god Baldr."

sounds like Night King's corpse queen.

And if indeed Ned is Hades - Sunray's essay convinces me (btw huge thanks @sweetsunray, your Mythical Wave is great - and lexocon extremly useful for me) - than Arya might be a death goddess as well.

Hel owns a hound - in some versions a wolf - Garmr. That means 'rag'.

Hel is daughter of Loki - wolf Fenrir and serpent Jormungard  are her brothers.

 

Here are quotes:

"What were you doing to that cat, boy?" Myrcella asked again, sternly. To her brother she said, "He's a ragged boy, isn't he? Look at him." She giggled.
"A ragged dirty smelly boy," Tommen agreed.

 

She found herself standing at the mouth of a sewer where it emptied into the river. She stank so badly that she stripped right there, dropping her soiled clothing on the riverbank as she dove into the deep black waters. She swam until she felt clean, and crawled out shivering. Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice.  - she must have looked like a corpse

Arya looked down at her ragged clothes and bare feet, all cracked and callused. She saw the dirt under her nails, the scabs on her elbows, the scratches on her hands. Septa Mordane wouldn't even know me, I bet. Sansa might, but she'd pretend not to. "My mother's a lady, and my sister, but I never was."

 

Lady Smallwood welcomed the outlaws kindly enough, though she gave them a tongue lashing for dragging a young girl through the war. She became even more wroth when Lem let slip that Arya was highborn. "Who dressed the poor child in those Bolton rags?" she demanded of them.

 

"I heard the same thing from my cousin, and she's not the sort to lie," an old woman said. "She says there's this great pack, hundreds of them, mankillers. The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell."

 

"It's what you yelled that matters. I told Hot Pie he should clean the wax out of his ears, that all you yelled was Go to hell! If he asks you, you better say the same."

 

"I will," she said, even though she thought go to hell was a stupid thing to yell. She didn't dare tell Hot Pie who she really was. Maybe I should say Hot Pie's name to Jaqen.  - Arya's battlecry Winterfell becomes 'Go to hell' - idk if this is supposed to mean that WF is hell/underworld kind of place or if Arya is Hel

She regarded him suspiciously. Had the gods sent him? "How'd you make the dog kill Weese? Did you call Rorge and Biter up from hell? Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"

 

"She broke my nose." Lem dumped her unceremoniously to the floor. "Who in seven hells is she supposed to be?"

 

The Hound answered. "Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff's pretty sword in the river." He gave a bark of laughter. "Don't you know you're dead?"  - not seven, only one Hel

 

His arm, Arya thought, and his face. But he was the Hound. He deserved to burn in a fiery hell. The knife felt heavy in her hand. She gripped it tighter. "You killed Mycah," she said once more, daring him to deny it. "Tell them. You did. You did."  - you're doing it wrong Arya, your hell should be frozen

 

Lem grabbed her wrist and twisted, wrenching the dagger away. She kicked at him, but he would not give it back. "You go to hell, Hound," she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. "You just go to hell!"  - if Hound went to hell he'd be Garmr for Arya

The Hound reined up so suddenly that she almost fell off the wayn. "Seven bloody buggering hells," Arya heard him curse, as their left wheel began to sink in soft mud. The wayn tilted slowly. "Get down," Clegane roared at her, slamming the heel of his hand into her shoulder to knock her sideways. She landed light, the way Syrio had taught her, and bounced up at once with a face full of mud. "Why did you do that?" she screamed. The Hound had leapt down as well. He tore the seat off the front of the wayn and reached in for the swordbelt he'd hidden beneath it.

 

His shipmates looked at him and laughed. "Seven hells, boy," said one of them. "Might be the captain could get hisself a courty-san, but only if he sold the bloody ship. That sort o' cunt's for lords and such, not for the likes o' us."

  Reveal hidden contents

 

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"  

There are many more examples, but those above seemed to show it the most clearly.

 

Edit: hmm... the only time word Garm appears in ASOIAF is name of Garmund Hightower.

 OK, that's all really good stuff. Essentially, what we are being shown is that Arya is a hell hound. Sandor is the prime example of a Hellhound, being a hound who is literally burnt and demonic looking, and he is essentially training Arya to be a killer throughout book 3.  Your idea about her representing Garm might make a lot of sense. Hel would be Stoneheart in this equation, and that makes a certain amount of sense as well doesn't it? As you say, her other parent is Hades. 

What Arya is, first and foremost, is a death goddess, a killer. The night wolf, a faceless woman, a blood child and a dark heart. She also shows us lion of night symbolism. 

Her other major line of symbolism is that of a child of the forest, as I'm sure all are familiar with. This really reminds me of the idea of Nissa Nissa being an elf of some kind. An elf who turned into a death goddess. 

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4 minutes ago, LmL said:

Hel would be Stoneheart in this equation, and that makes a certain amount of sense as well doesn't it? As you say, her other parent is Hades. 

And her father spoiled Baldr's resurrection by impersonating Thanks and engineered Baldr going to Hell in the first place. 

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Hey so this is not strictly KoW but is related to the bloody hands, hands on fire and all the other imagery; Cold Hands with his blackened hands, one-eyed Timett son of Timett the red hand of the burned men could be in relation to the Hamsa which at some point was considered the son of Ishtar or related to the Buddha's open hand implying teaching. 

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10 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And her father spoiled Baldr's resurrection by impersonating Thanks and engineered Baldr going to Hell in the first place. 

Sorry, Can you spell that out for me PKJ?  All the Norse myth is a bit mixed up in my head quite honestly. 

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So... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr?wprov=sfla1

"The second son of Odin is Baldur, and good things are to be said of him. He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body. He is the wisest of the Æsir, and the fairest-spoken and most gracious; and that quality attends him, that none may gainsay his judgments. He dwells in the place called Breidablik, which is in heaven; in that place may nothing unclean be"

He had a dream of his own death and his mother had the same dreams. Since dreams were usually prophetic, this depressed him, so his mother Frigg made every object in every realm vow never to hurt Baldr. All objects made this vow except mistletoe. Frigg had thought it too young to swear—a detail which has traditionally been explained with the idea that it was too unimportant and unthreatening to bother asking it to make the vow, but which Merrill Kaplan has instead argued echoes the fact that young people were not eligible to swear legal oaths, which could make them a threat later in life

 

When Loki, the mischief-maker, heard of this, he made a magical spear from this plant (in some later versions, an arrow). He hurried to the place where the gods were indulging in their new pastime of hurling objects at Baldr, which would bounce off without harming him. Loki gave the spear to Baldr's brother, the blind god Höðr, who then inadvertently killed his brother with it (other versions suggest that Loki guided the arrow himself). For this act, Odin and the giantess Rindr gave birth to Váliwho grew to adulthood within a day and slew Höðr.

Baldr was ceremonially burnt upon his ship,Hringhorni, the largest of all ships. As he was carried to the ship, Odin whispered in his ear. The question of what he said was to be a key riddle asked by Odin (in disguise) of the giantVafthrudnir (and which was, of course, unanswerable) in the poem Vafthrudnismal. The riddle also appears in the riddles ofGestumblindi in Hervarar saga.

The dwarf Litr was kicked by Thor into the funeral fire and burnt alive. Nanna, Baldr's wife, also threw herself on the funeral fire to await Ragnarök when she would be reunited with her husband (alternatively, she died of grief). Baldr's horse with all its trappings was also burned on the pyre. The ship was set to sea by Hyrrokin, a giantess, who came riding on a wolf and gave the ship such a push that fire flashed from the rollers and all the earth shook.

Upon Frigg's entreaties, delivered through the messenger Hermod, Hel promised to release Baldr from the underworld if all objects alive and dead would weep for him. All did, except a giantess, Þökk often presumed to be the god Loki in disguise, who refused to mourn the slain god. Thus Baldr had to remain in the underworld, not to emerge until after Ragnarök, when he and his brother Höðr would be reconciled and rule the new earth together with Thor's sons. Alternately, Loki cast a spell upon the Willow tree, which was once tall and proud. This spell prevented the tree from weeping for Baldr the Beautiful. Since the tree was unable to weep for the fallen son of Odin, he remained in the underworld. Released from the spell of Loki, the willow tree bowed in its grief and was bound to weep eternally."

 

Edited by Blue Tiger

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^^^^^^this

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5 hours ago, cgrav said:

I think the CoK scene with Bran reaching Jon via Ghost lays the foundation for a skinchanger revival. It could be a dual resurrection, with the body repaired by fire and the "spirit" by Bran/Ghost.

That's a good way of thinking about it.  So the icy body is resurrected by fire and the fiery spirit is preserved by ice;   @LmL's appositely-named 'soul jar' providing a safe refuge, preventing the consuming fire of R'hllor from nibbling away at the edges of Jon's soul.  The reason Beric loses bits of himself is that each time he's resurrected the reanimating fire simultaneously cauterizes his memories, obliterating his selfhood.  'Old gods' magic would circumvent this effect, keeping his 'self' on ice -- which is their essential function.  

The trees remember; the bones remember; the north remembers -- the weirwoods preserve the past.  Fire obliterates the past -- that's why Beric wonders if Thoros is his mother.  Being taken up into the embrace of the wolf/weirwood is a way of preserving the remembrance of Jon's mother Lyanna (although Jon doesn't know he remembers that yet!).

2 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

I actually see a possibility for a three part resurrection here. Green magic would not seem sufficient to preserve memories, as skin changers living a second life lose much of their memories as they merge with the animal, but as Aemon said, "Fire consumes, but cold preserves." I'm not sure how it wold play out, but I see Jon being preserved by cold magic, revived by fire magic, and being returned to his body by green magic. I think  of the three forks of the Trident, Red, Blue, and Green flowing into the joined river. I can't back this up of course.

I like your 3-part scenario, except being preserved in Ghost is part of greenseeing.

Best of all with your analogy,  theTrident merges into one, indicating all the different kinds of magic have a common source and work together.

Greenseeing is just skinchanging trees, so skinchanging is just a subset of greenseeing.  Therefore, the 'soul jar' experience should be 'green magic' too, the wolves working in tandem with the trees (in so many passages they're described as being one with the forest, emerging from the forest, their eyes indistinguishable from those of the greenseers peering out from the trees, etc.).  Because wolves are additionally connected to ice magic (there are many poetic connections to the Others and I like to think of the pack moving over the landscape as an 'ice pack' wordplay!), we can include your 'cold magic' as 'ice magic' which is related to 'green magic'.

So, to summarise:

1.  ice magic (connected to green magic) -- wolf -- facilitated by Ghost  -- corresponds to blue fork.  Pros: preserves soul for a time; cons: risks merging with the animal and forgetting who he is

2.  fire magic -- dragon -- facilitated by Melisandre - corresponds to red fork.  Pros: animates body as fire wight; cons: risks obliterating memories and therefore as with ice magic forgetting who he is

3.  green magic -- tree -- facilitated by Bran -- corresponds to green fork.  Pros: preserves human memories and functions as a bridge between the supernatural and natural worlds, the spiritual and the physical; cons: static residence means Jon risks being tied to a tree and losing his body.  It's important to leave the tree, or one becomes like Bloodraven.

'Ice' and green magic working together makes sense.  Remember Jojen cautions Bran when he's learning how to 'warg' Summer that he should remember to 'mark the trees' -- which I've always found an interesting comment.  What does that mean?   'Clawing the bark,' as Bran remarks below.  Or, perhaps even urinating against the tree as a wolf does to mark the territory?  

Maybe marking the trees has something to do with remembrance, for example when one inscribes (like writing runes) notches in a tree trunk in order to 'mark' time.  'Mark' can be used as a verb to signify committing something to memory, as in 'Mark my words.'

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Did you mark the trees?"

Bran flushed. Jojen was always telling him to do things when he opened his third eye and put on Summer's skin. To claw the bark of a tree, to catch a rabbit and bring it back in his jaws uneaten, to push some rocks in a line. Stupid things. "I forgot," he said.

"You always forget."

If one forgets to 'mark the trees,' one merges with the wolf to such an extent one forgets who one is:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Jojen, what did you mean about a teacher?" Bran asked. "You're my teacher. I know I never marked the tree, but I will the next time. My third eye is open like you wanted . . ."

"So wide open that I fear you may fall through it, and live all the rest of your days as a wolf of the woods."

Water and its derivatives ice and water vapour is all well and good; however, it's similar to death in that it involves a dissolution of the self -- here expressed as 'falling through the third eye' (Jojen's eyes are described as deep 'green pools').  So as not to lose oneself and be swept away in the fluid experience, one needs to hold to the trees.  

They are the rooted ones when the flood comes and sweeps everything else away.  The roots are what it's about -- the roots reinforce the memory, the connection to the past ensuring the integrity of the future.  In order to truly eradicate a weirwood, one needs to uproot it 'root and stem'.  Therefore, to remain grounded in reality, in ones body, one must make the transition from the rootless green (water, ice, wolf...wolf is related to flow, according to Seams with which I agree; the 'ice pack' is a sea of moving ice) -- to the rooted green (tree).

2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

"In the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, andHeimskringla, Hel is referred to as a daughter of Loki, and to "go to Hel" is to die. In theProse Edda book Gylfaginning, Hel is described as having been appointed by the god Odin as ruler of a realm of the same name, located in Niflheim. In the same source, her appearance is described as half blue and half flesh-coloured and further as having a gloomy, downcast appearance. The Prose Edda details that Hel rules over vast mansions with many servants in her underworld realm and plays a key role in the attempted resurrection of the god Baldr."

sounds like Night King's corpse queen.

And if indeed Ned is Hades - Sunray's essay convinces me (btw huge thanks @sweetsunray, your Mythical Wave is great - and lexocon extremly useful for me) - than Arya might be a death goddess as well.

Hel owns a hound - in some versions a wolf - Garmr. That means 'rag'.

Hel is daughter of Loki - wolf Fenrir and serpent Jormungard  are her brothers.

'Going to Hel' is manifested symbolically by Jon's recurring dreams of going down into the crypts.  Perhaps the 'undead' state will be facilitated by the hellhound sidekick -- in Jon's case his loyal shadow, the aptly-named 'Ghost.'  The underworld descent he keeps dreaming about and fears is foreshadowing of his liminal 'death' state from which he will later arise, as he did covered in flour emerging from the empty tomb when he was pranking his siblings.  Jon is destined to assume the mantle of the King of Winter and the other Kings together with his mother are waiting down there for him.  He has 'more of the north in him than his siblings' for a reason.

Thanks for the mythology and etymology lesson -- I particularly love the latter!  I had never realised that 'Ragnarok' might have a connection to the root for 'wolf'!  Assuming we can trace the use of the word 'ragged' (which @Seams has connected to 'dagger' and 'deserters' which in turn may be an anagram of 'red trees' i.e. weirwoods), what do you think the wolf- and hel- connection implies about the opening execution of the Night's Watch deserter in the snow, which ushered in the finding of the direwolves?  Do you think the beheading presages something in terms of a wolf or Stark being beheaded by another wolf/Stark?

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

He had a dream of his own death and his mother had the same dreams. Since dreams were usually prophetic, this depressed him

These are the crypt dreams.

@Blue Tiger and @Pain killer Jane:  Could you please elaborate on how you think the myth can be mapped onto the story, particularly in terms of the two brothers Jon and Bran.  You think one will inadvertently kill the other?  (Also, what about the father-figure spoiling the resurrection?)  I tend to think there will be a self-sacrifice, rather than a murder.  That's the only way to put an end to the bitter cycle, from which a bittersweet emergence may dawn. 

Edited by ravenous reader

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Hey so this is not strictly KoW sbut is related to the bloody hands, hands on fire and all the other imagery; Cold Hands with his blackened hands, one-eyed Timett son o Timett the red hand of the burned men could be in relation to the Hamsa which at zaome point was considered the son of Ishtar or related to the Buddha's open hand implying teaching. 

See, now when I dump a bunch of mythology on you guys, I'm kind enough to explain how it relates to the song of ice and fire. But you guys, you go on and on about mistletoe and bald people and leave me in the dark. I'm just trying to sketch out the family tree in my mind, I can't quite wrap my brain around the whole thing to see how it relates exactly. 

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