Skinchanger Zombies: Jon, the Last Hero, and Coldhands

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, LmL said:

But you guys, you go on and on about mistletoe and bald people and leave me in the dark.

Just so!  I'm all at sea...without the true seeing

[Bluetiger]

Well... 

I think this all has sth to do with mistletoe being a parasite growing on trees - Bran entering the tree and Bloodraven seem to be parasites for weirwood -  trees don't need them, they are essentially immortal, and I wonder what effect on them humans and COTF have - maybe Bran somehow drains their power?

Anyway, relationship between weirwood and greenseer seems to be somewhat parasitic - so there is a connection.

Mistletoe is mentioned only once, as sigil of House Charlton:

The paths between the cookfires were raw brown mud, mixed with horse dung and torn up by hooves and boots alike. Everywhere Jaime saw the twin towers of House Frey displayed on shield and banners, blue on grey, along with the arms of lesser Houses sworn to the Crossing: the heron of Erenford, the pitchfork of Haigh, Lord Charlton's three sprigs of mistletoe. The arrival of the Kingslayer did not go unnoticed. An old woman selling piglets from a basket stopped to stare at him, a knight with a half-familiar face went to one knee, and two men-at-arms pissing in a ditch turned and sprayed each other. "Ser Jaime," someone called after him, but he strode on without turning. Around him he glimpsed the faces of men he'd done his best to kill in the Whispering Wood, where the Freys had fought beneath the direwolf banners of Robb Stark. His golden hand hung heavy at his side

Of course, few lines later Whispering Wood of Greenseers is mentioned,  just like direwolf of Stark, heron might symbolise spring, while pitchfork summer and harvest, mistletoe'd be winter.

 

here is ancient Celtic druid practice, as described by Pilny the Elder:

 

“

We should not omit to mention the great admiration that the Gauls have for it as well. The druids – that is what they call their magicians – hold nothing more sacred than the mistletoe and a tree on which it is growing, provided it is a hard-timbered oak [robur].... Mistletoe is rare and when found it is gathered with great ceremony, and particularly on the sixth day of the moon.... Hailing the moon in a native word that means 'healing all things,' they prepare a ritual sacrifice and banquet beneath a tree and bring up two white bulls, whose horns are bound for the first time on this occasion. A priest arrayed in white vestments climbs the tree and, with a golden sickle, cuts down the mistletoe, which is caught in a white cloak. Then finally they kill the victims, praying to a god to render his gift propitious to those on whom he has bestowed it. They believe that mistletoe given in drink will impart fertility to any animal that is barren and that it is an antidote to all poisons   - Jaime is a man clad in white cloak, his golden hand might be the scythe... He's also connected to White Bulls via Ser Gerold. Idk yet what all of that means... But there is a connection between Jon, Bran, Hodor, bulls, direwolves and Jaime - probably a weirwood.   That quote is from Natural History - GRRM seems to know this book - hence Unnatural History of Dragons by septon Barth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_oak_and_mistletoe?wprov=sfla1   This symbolism is so complicated, with so many layers...   Another thing: Fenrir means fen-dweller... And there is House Fenn of the Neck - only known member is Wylla Fenn, mother of Brandon Stark's bastard Lonnel Snow.

[Pain killer Jane]

12 minutes ago, LmL said:

See, now when I dump a bunch of mythology on you guys, I'm kind enough to explain how it relates to the song of ice and fire. But you guys, you go on and on about mistletoe and bald people and leave me in the dark. I'm just trying to sketch out the family tree in my mind, I can't quite wrap my brain around the whole thing to see how it relates exactly. 

You made me laugh out loud with this. I have an extremely bad habit of this, Sorry. The Hamsa is a symbol in Mesopotamia, usually it is an open hand or with an eye in it. It has been called the Hand of Ishtar, the Hand of Venus, the Hand of Fatima (Mohammed's daughter who wrote the Quran), the Hand of Mary and the Buddha's mudra. With all of these, the amulet is supposed to protect from what varies, the Hand of Ishtar protected wearers from the evil eye, the Hand of Mary protected women during pregnancy or promote fertility, the Buddha's mudra of the open hand was a sign of learning, there is even a theory that the Catacomb frescoes of women with open hands signified a woman priest, and the open hand of friendship even our own modern western culture has the open hand signal which means 'stop', and one of the oldest interpretation of the open hand is the begging action seen across cultures and species. 

Anyway modern interpretations aside, basically an open hand amulet meant protection. We have many open hand palm side out images running around, Timmett son of Timmett, a red hand of the Burned Men, The Gardener kings and their green hand sigil, Garth VII Gardner- the Goldenhand, The Hand of the King, The Fiery Hand army of the Red Temple in Volantis, Jaime losing his hand and having a golden fake hand, Coldhands, Left Hand Lew, the Redwyne twins left and right 'hand' etc. etc. etc.

Some of the protection symbolism is distorted the Fiery Hand while it is protecting the red temple is menacing with the whole if one finger is extinguished than another flame with take its place.

Others like Garth Greenhand, Timmett (with all his Odin imagery) are associated with the knowledge symbolism of the open hand; Garth taught the first men how to farm and gave fertility with a touch (aside from the sexual connotations, a touch could be an open hand on the shoulder).

Coldhands offers Gilly (a new mother) with an open hand to give her protection.

 The Fiery hand, Timmet being a red hand and thus associated with secret knowledge, Garth, the burning hands of the weirwoods and some of the stuff we spoke about got me thinking that the red open hand could be related to this sacrificing for power/knowledge thing.  

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You made me laugh out loud with this. I have an extremely bad habit of this, Sorry. The Hamsa is a symbol in Mesopotamia, usually it is an open hand or with an eye in it. It has been called the Hand of Ishtar, the Hand of Venus, the Hand of Fatima (Mohammed's daughter who wrote the Quran), the Hand of Mary and the Buddha's mudra. With all of these, the amulet is supposed to protect from what varies, the Hand of Ishtar protected wearers from the evil eye, the Hand of Mary protected women during pregnancy or promote fertility, the Buddha's mudra of the open hand was a sign of learning, there is even a theory that the Catacomb frescoes of women with open hands signified a woman priest, and the open hand of friendship even our own modern western culture has the open hand signal which means 'stop', and one of the oldest interpretation of the open hand is the begging action seen across cultures and species. 

Anyway modern interpretations aside, basically an open hand amulet meant protection. We have many open hand palm side out images running around, Timmett son of Timmett, a red hand of the Burned Men, The Gardener kings and their green hand sigil, Garth VII Gardner- the Goldenhand, The Hand of the King, The Fiery Hand army of the Red Temple in Volantis, Jaime losing his hand and having a golden fake hand, Coldhands, Left Hand Lew, the Redwyne twins left and right 'hand' etc. etc. etc.

Some of the protection symbolism is distorted the Fiery Hand while it is protecting the red temple is menacing with the whole if one finger is extinguished than another flame with take its place.

Others like Garth Greenhand, Timmett (with all his Odin imagery) are associated with the knowledge symbolism of the open hand; Garth taught the first men how to farm and gave fertility with a touch (aside from the sexual connotations, a touch could be an open hand on the shoulder).

Coldhands offers Gilly (a new mother) with an open hand to give her protection.

 The Fiery hand, Timmet being a red hand and thus associated with secret knowledge, Garth, the burning hands of the weirwoods and some of the stuff we spoke about got me thinking that the red open hand could be related to this sacrificing for power/knowledge thing.  

 

Well, here's where mythical astronomy comes in... handy. The fiery hand is a symbol of the moon exploding. The opening of the hand is the same as the flinging of the fiery fingers. It's same as the blooming of the moon flower, the red blossom of a fresh wound. So, to the extent Lightbringer is bringing the fire of the gods in all sense of the word, it comes with an opening of the hand. It's also a cutting off of the hand or fingers, because the 'hand' of god falls from space and lands on earth. The full picture is a fist, opening into a burning and bloody hand, then being sliced off and falling to earth. Even those fiery fingers land like a stone fist, as we saw in the Gregor / Oberyn duel. So it's not really about protection in this case - it's a either an act of aggression, or an extension of heavenly fire (knowledge).

Now, the green hand, that may be different. Weirwood is heavily associated with shielding, regulating, that sort of thing, as you have said and as I have noticed lately. There's also a frequent depiction of something rising form the earth like a fist - the Fist of the First Men, Storm's End, the little armored island outside white harbor, and I think the island Stannis is chilling on and it's watchtower at the end of ADWD. Maybe one or two other places.  All of these depict rising smoke, I believe, which was the true sun killer. It goes like this: the sun kills the moon, black lightbringer babies are born. But those dragons land, throw up smoke, and blot out the sun. That is you son killing the father motif right there, or it can be a daughter, same thing. The fist of the First Men implies something rising from the ground - the only thin I can think of is the smoke plume, and I have seen evidence that this is the case... so that's my conclusion. Remember the quotes about Storm's End blotting out the stars when Renly dies... that's what I mean. Also, consider the broken ash wood spear metaphor, the one rising from the fallen Mountain like a plume of ash and smoke, or the ash wood spears with NW brothers heads on them which created a comet head / trail of ash image.

The only other rising fist idea I can think of would be the sound or magic which rose from the earth to steer the comet, but I don't think that's a fist. That's usually just the horn and other sounds. 

 

ETA haha glad I made you laugh. My sense of humor doesn't always come through in text.   I figured the bald people joke would get you.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

 Frigg made every object in every realm vow never to hurt Baldr. All objects made this vow except mistletoe. Frigg had thought it too young to swear—a detail which has traditionally been explained with the idea that it was too unimportant and unthreatening to bother asking it to make the vow, but which Merrill Kaplan has instead argued echoes the fact that young people were not eligible to swear legal oaths, which could make them a threat later in life

Oaks are known for being the tree most likely to attract and be struck by lightning, even relative to other trees of comparable stature, so mistletoe was hung in the top branches to facilitate its being struck by lightning, thereby 'blessing' it and/or magically imbuing it with powerful healing properties.  You are right to draw a parallel between mistletoe and the greenseers in this respect who like Odin are 'hanging' themselves on the weirwood tree in order to 'steal the fire' of the gods for themselves, thus enhancing their powers.  As you highlight, the druids harvested the mistletoe with sickles, which is associated with sacrifice.  Additionally, the white berries of the mistletoe apparently exude a white sap which when squeezed resembles semen, interpreted as 'the seed of the gods,' and also additionally connoting a darker reference to what happens under the mistletoe, which appears to involve more than a kiss!  Thus, harvesting the mistletoe berries is akin to castrating the god, along the lines of other fertility myths in which the sacrifice of the god turns the seasons.  Interestingly, these berries are picked at the Winter Solstice, tying into the whole greenman-zombie resurrection idea (Jon) as well as Bran additionally having sacrificed himself to the tree in the first place. Recall in this respect the kernels of golden 'corn corn corn' -- representing his 'seed', hence reproductive potential --which Bran gave up in exchange for 'third-eye' opening.  Both of the brothers are sacrificial archetypes.

In terms of GRRM's weirwood conception, he seems to be suggesting that the parasitism goes both ways.  Contrasted with the mistletoe solely parasitising the oak and not vice versa, the weirwoods are feeding off the greenseers, just as much as the greenseers are feeding off the tree.  Why else should Bloodraven be pinioned, penetrated and riddled through by the roots, described as 'milk snakes (which resemble a poisonous variant in the 'real world') and 'grave worms,' in such a ghastly fashion -- the tree seems carnivorous -- which must be sapping him dry judging from his mummified appearance?  

Quote

When Loki, the mischief-maker, heard of this, he made a magical spear from this plant (in some later versions, an arrow). He hurried to the place where the gods were indulging in their new pastime of hurling objects at Baldr, which would bounce off without harming him. Loki gave the spear to Baldr's brother, the blind god Höðr, who then inadvertently killed his brother with it (other versions suggest that Loki guided the arrow himself). For this act, Odin and the giantess Rindr gave birth to Váliwho grew to adulthood within a day and slew Höð

This is reminiscent of Bloodraven's sorcery whereby he slew his half-brother Daemon and his sons 'with a white arrow and a black spell,' implying that weirwoods are toxic to dragons.  @LmL , this is in keeping with your preference for 'white swords killing dragons' vs. 'black swords killing Others.'

Are we supposed to intuit thereby, assuming there is a one-to-one parallel between mistletoe and weirwoods, and Bloodraven and Bran, that Bran will be responsible for killing Jon (a dragon) using the power of the weirwood, either as an actual or figurative 'white arrow and black spell'?  Loki the 'mischief-maker' reminds me of Bran the 'naughty boy who climbed too high...'

Those 'naughty naughty greenseers'!

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Well... 

I think this all has sth to do with mistletoe being a parasite growing on trees - Bran entering the tree and Bloodraven seem to be parasites for weirwood -  trees don't need them, they are essentially immortal, and I wonder what effect on them humans and COTF have - maybe Bran somehow drains their power?

Anyway, relationship between weirwood and greenseer seems to be somewhat parasitic - so there is a connection.

I was talking about this @Pain killer Jane just yesterday. I have always wondered whether or not the trees even like being skinchanged at all. They are screaming silently and weeping blood... seems fucked up. Not really some kind of zen-like harmony with nature, at least not by appearances. I am very interested in exploring this angle further.  So mistletoe is parasitic you say? That is in treating, as is the idea of making a spear from it. I believe that part of the truth of Dawn's origin has to do with weirwoods - in some sense, Dawn is a tree sword. All the times Starks play with wooden swords, including all of Arya's scenes sword fighting with broom handles and branches.. they all refer to the idea of a tree sword. Odin his a sword in a tree, right? Might have to do with that. Anyway, so you're saying a spear made of missile-toe killed the shining hero? Very interesting. 

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Mistletoe is mentioned only once, as sigil of House Charlton:

The paths between the cookfires were raw brown mud, mixed with horse dung and torn up by hooves and boots alike. Everywhere Jaime saw the twin towers of House Frey displayed on shield and banners, blue on grey, along with the arms of lesser Houses sworn to the Crossing: the heron of Erenford, the pitchfork of Haigh, Lord Charlton's three sprigs of mistletoe. The arrival of the Kingslayer did not go unnoticed. An old woman selling piglets from a basket stopped to stare at him, a knight with a half-familiar face went to one knee, and two men-at-arms pissing in a ditch turned and sprayed each other. "Ser Jaime," someone called after him, but he strode on without turning. Around him he glimpsed the faces of men he'd done his best to kill in the Whispering Wood, where the Freys had fought beneath the direwolf banners of Robb Stark. His golden hand hung heavy at his side

Of course, few lines later Whispering Wood of Greenseers is mentioned,  just like direwolf of Stark, heron might symbolise spring, while pitchfork summer and harvest, mistletoe'd be winter.

 

Is Jaime Bladr, then? The Mistletoe House was one of the ones trying to kill him in the whispering wood.

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

 

here is ancient Celtic druid practice, as described by Pilny the Elder:

 

“

We should not omit to mention the great admiration that the Gauls have for it as well. The druids – that is what they call their magicians – hold nothing more sacred than the mistletoe and a tree on which it is growing, provided it is a hard-timbered oak [robur].... Mistletoe is rare and when found it is gathered with great ceremony, and particularly on the sixth day of the moon.... Hailing the moon in a native word that means 'healing all things,' they prepare a ritual sacrifice and banquet beneath a tree and bring up two white bulls, whose horns are bound for the first time on this occasion. A priest arrayed in white vestments climbs the tree and, with a golden sickle, cuts down the mistletoe, which is caught in a white cloak. Then finally they kill the victims, praying to a god to render his gift propitious to those on whom he has bestowed it. They believe that mistletoe given in drink will impart fertility to any animal that is barren and that it is an antidote to all poisons   - Jaime is a man clad in white cloak, his golden hand might be the scythe... He's also connected to White Bulls via Ser Gerold. Idk yet what all of that means... But there is a connection between Jon, Bran, Hodor, bulls, direwolves and Jaime - probably a weirwood.   That quote is from Natural History - GRRM seems to know this book - hence Unnatural History of Dragons by septon Barth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_oak_and_mistletoe?wprov=sfla1   This symbolism is so complicated, with so many layers...   Another thing: Fenrir means fen-dweller... And there is House Fenn of the Neck - only known member is Wylla Fenn, mother of Brandon Stark's bastard Lonnel Snow.

House Fenn, three black flowers on purple... theres a Jon Snow parallel here, right? A Stark bastard named snow whose mother was Wylla? What's it mean though?

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oaks are known for being the tree most likely to attract and be struck by lightning, even relative to other trees of comparable stature, so mistletoe was hung in the top branches to facilitate its being struck by lightning, thereby 'blessing' it and/or magically imbuing it with powerful healing properties.  You are right to draw a parallel between mistletoe and the greenseers in this respect who like Odin are 'hanging' themselves on the weirwood tree in order to 'steal the fire' of the gods for themselves, thus enhancing their powers.  As you highlight, the druids harvested the mistletoe with sickles, which is associated with sacrifice.  Additionally, the white berries of the mistletoe apparently exude a white sap which when squeezed resembles semen, interpreted as 'the seed of the gods,' and also additionally connoting a darker reference to what happens under the mistletoe, which appears to involve more than a kiss!  Thus, harvesting the mistletoe berries is akin to castrating the god, along the lines of other fertility myths in which the sacrifice of the god turns the seasons.  Interestingly, these berries are picked at the Winter Solstice, tying into the whole greenman-zombie resurrection idea (Jon) as well as Bran additionally having sacrificed himself to the tree in the first place. Recall in this respect the kernels of golden 'corn corn corn' -- representing his 'seed', hence reproductive potential --which Bran gave up in exchange for 'third-eye' opening.  Both of the brothers are sacrificial archetypes.

In terms of GRRM's weirwood conception, he seems to be suggesting that the parasitism goes both ways.  Contrasted with the mistletoe solely parasitising the oak and not vice versa, the weirwoods are feeding off the greenseers, just as much as the greenseers are feeding off the tree.  Why else should Bloodraven be pinioned, penetrated and riddled through by the roots, described as 'milk snakes (which resemble a poisonous variant in the 'real world') and 'grave worms,' in such a ghastly fashion -- the tree seems carnivorous -- which must be sapping him dry judging from his mummified appearance?  

This is reminiscent of Bloodraven's sorcery whereby he slew his half-brother Daemon and his sons 'with a white arrow and a black spell,' implying that weirwoods are toxic to dragons.  @LmL , this is in keeping with your preference for 'white swords killing dragons' vs. 'black swords killing Others.'

Are we supposed to intuit thereby, assuming there is a one-to-one parallel between mistletoe and weirwoods, and Bloodraven and Bran, that Bran will be responsible for killing Jon (a dragon) using the power of the weirwood, either as an actual or figurative 'white arrow and black spell'?  Loki the 'mischief-maker' reminds me of Bran the 'naughty boy who climbed too high...'

Those 'naughty naughty greenseers'!

Yes, and I was just saying in the comment I was typing as you typed this, I believe Dawn is in some sense a weirwood sword, a tree sword. And yeah I was just thinking of the tale pale youth making weirwood arrows Bran sees, or Bloodraven's weirwood arrows. 

I like the connection between mistletoe hanging on the tree to get blessed with divine lightning and Odin on the tree, that seems right - especially since George has merged the lightning striking a tree idea, the fire of the gods idea, and the weirwood. When you say Oak is known for getting hit by lighting, that makes sense - Garth (meaning 'the horned greenseer archetype'), while alive, is very much the Oak / Summer King, complete with his oakenseat.  When he gets struck by the fire of the gods thunderbolt, he's then associated with dead trees. There's even a lighting blasted tree in the river lands which has corpses hanging from it - being hung on the tree and having your tree struck by lighting are the same thing, because of Odin's horse of the hanged and the Storm God thunderbolt / burning tree myth. 

[LmL]

28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In terms of GRRM's weirwood conception, he seems to be suggesting that the parasitism goes both ways.  Contrasted with the mistletoe solely parasitising the oak and not vice versa, the weirwoods are feeding off the greenseers, just as much as the greenseers are feeding off the tree.  Why else should Bloodraven be pinioned, penetrated and riddled through by the roots, described as 'milk snakes (which resemble a poisonous variant in the 'real world') and 'grave worms,' in such a ghastly fashion -- the tree seems carnivorous -- which must be sapping him dry judging from his mummified appearance?

I totally agree with this, and have picked up on that symbolism... but what are the trees getting out of the bargain? Or are they being raped, essentially?

I've even wondered if they should be seen as zombie trees. What is dead may never die, and neither does a weirwood, you know? I mean the tree does look like a brain-eater, right? Was there some fundamental transformation to the entire weirwoodnet at some point? That is something I suspect is the case. They are like vampire ash trees, or a 'dead oak tree' in the sense that the winter phase of the horned god is like a dead summer king.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Could you please elaborate on how you think the myth can be mapped onto the story, particularly in terms of the two brothers Jon and Bran.  You think one will inadvertently kill the other?

This may seem out there and crackpot but I tend to think that it will be Jon and Robb to try to kill each other especially if the theory that Robb's head is on the Mountain's body. That would be fitting that turning wolves into loyal dogs against other wolves quote from the Gardeners. 

[LmL]

Just now, Pain killer Jane said:

This may seem out there and crackpot but I tend to think that it will be Jon and Robb to try to kill each other especially if the theory that Robb's head is on the Mountain's body. That would be fitting that turning wolves into loyal dogs against other wolves quote from the Gardeners. 

say what now?  (needle skip sound)

[Pain killer Jane]

8 minutes ago, LmL said:

say what now?  (needle skip sound)

The helm filled with black blood in Bran's vision and the dark helm Catelyn sees when she looks at Robb. Jon dreaming fighting Robb 'screaming I am the Lord of Winterfell,." Garth the 9th (notice the 9) and he is one of 3 sage kings of the Gardeners is quoted as saying 

Quote

 "When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening."

I could have sworn I read that theory on here somewhere. Or it may be something I thought about. 

much better than the Clegane-bowl. 

[LmL]

Let's run with the idea of the weirwoods as a fish garth for a minute. A fishing weir or fishgarth is for trapping fish. What are the weirwoods trapping? The greenseers, right? But what's the point? What do the weirwoods gain by trapping a few greenseers?

• perhaps by converting a few humans to the 'green' / pro-nature way of thinking, and making those humans powerful, they gain allies among their 'enemies' which they can use to regulate all humanity
• perhaps the weirwoods are gaining something from the greenseers they could not have otherwise  - what could this be? Corn, right? Vitality, life force, sentience? What about this - what about trees bodysnatching people? Take Jon's "direwolf soul jar" process and swap out a weirwood - might not some of the weirwoodnet consciousness come along with the resurrected greenseer back into he resurrected body, just as some (or all) of Ghost might come with Jon? 
• what if the original greenseers trapped in the weirwoodnet were dangerous in way we don't understand, and the weirwoods were containing them? remember that a weirwood is a garthwood. Are the original horned lords trapped in the weirwoodnet? Did their conciseness create the weirwoodnet? Did they become the trees to give them faces? 
• separate idea - the weirwoods are not trapping greenseers. They are trapping black meteors ickiness. The black meteors are like a poison snake bite - look at Asshai. Look at Yeen. The oily stone is an inversion of the life seed - it's poison. Perhaps the weirwoodnet is transmuting that poison somehow. Remember, the most important weir is the one at Wintefell, which is defined in part by it's cold black pond. It's the black in the red, black, white color scheme. Alternately, the black crows in the dark caves beneath the tree represent black as well. 
• ETA: fishgarths are for trapping fish. Does this mean deep ones? Sea dragons? Asshai people coming by sea? Or is the fish part not important, just the trap part...

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

"When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening."

Ok, now THAT might be what the weirwoods are doing with the greenseers. This is in regards to the questions I asked in the above post. 

As for Robb's head.. just no. That's crackpot. Would have taken weeks to get to KL, there are no clues anything was done with it. I know his visor was filled with darkness, but that's a reference to the KoW as a dead man, not to Gregor (I think anyway). They both go back to the same astronomy though, the waves of night that come from the moon death. But regardless of that, the quote seems like it might apply to weirwoods. 

[Pain killer Jane]

Just now, LmL said:

As for Robb's head.. just no. That's crackpot.

I figured it was but I can't lie that it is interesting to image a scenario and Clegane-bowl bugs me. 

[ravenous reader]

23 minutes ago, LmL said:

I totally agree with this, and have picked up on that symbolism... but what are the trees getting out of the bargain? Or are they being raped, essentially?

Good question. There is something obscenely sexual suggested by all those penetrating weirwood tendrils!   And the blood-weeping suggests some kind of violation.  I'll ponder it anon.

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

This may seem out there and crackpot but I tend to think that it will be Jon and Robb to try to kill each other especially if the theory that Robb's head is on the Mountain's body. That would be fitting that turning wolves into loyal dogs against other wolves quote from the Gardeners. 

Robb Stark's head on the Mountain?  I wasn't aware of that!  Please enlighten me.

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The Fiery hand, Timmet being a red hand and thus associated with secret knowledge, Garth, the burning hands of the weirwoods and some of the stuff we spoke about got me thinking that the red open hand could be related to this sacrificing for power/knowledge thing.

Primates are characterised by their eyes and grasping hands.  In the case of humans, the opposable thumb makes tool-making and handling so much more efficient that in any other animal species.  The importance of eyes and hands to humans is demonstrated by the relatively large area by which these faculties are represented on our cerebral hemispheres.  In the end, these appendages are extensions of our most glorious, transcendent and also most vicious tool -- our brain.  Tool-making is therefore associated with the potential both to help and to harm -- the dualism we've previously identified.  By extension, a hand can function both as a sword and a shield, i.e. both in attack/aggression and defense/protection.  In addition to its use as a weapon and perfecting our obsession with warcraft, hands can also be used towards a more creative and less destructive purpose than war.  This is GRRM's underlying hope.

What are we (humanity) going to do with the hands we've been given, dealt and extended?

23 minutes ago, LmL said:

They are like vampire ash trees, or a 'dead oak tree' in the sense that the winter phase of the horned god is like a dead summer king.

Yeah, that's why Bran aka Summer child with Summer wolf is in the cave where it is always Summer under the sea.

How does that figure into ''vampire ash' or dead trees'-- I thought the weirwoods were 'evergreen'; I mean 'everred'?  They aren't supposed to die in Winter.

The transformation might be due to your 'meteor-seeding' idea, which if correct might tie into your 'Dawn as magical tree wand' sword.  Might the 'heart trees' have some connection to the 'heart of a fallen star' out of which the sword was forged?

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Well, here's where mythical astronomy comes in... handy. The fiery hand is a symbol of the moon exploding. The opening of the hand is the same as the flinging of the fiery fingers. It's same as the blooming of the moon flower, the red blossom of a fresh wound. So, to the extent Lightbringer is bringing the fire of the gods in all sense of the word, it comes with an opening of the hand. It's also a cutting off of the hand or fingers, because the 'hand' of god falls from space and lands on earth. The full picture is a fist, opening into a burning and bloody hand, then being sliced off and falling to earth. Even those fiery fingers land like a stone fist, as we saw in the Gregor / Oberyn duel. So it's not really about protection in this case - it's a either an act of aggression, or an extension of heavenly fire (knowledge).

Very nice.  It reminds me of fireworks opening like a flower and impregnating the earth in a rejuvenating, though also deadly 'meteor shower'!

 

Regarding the 'Red Right Hand':

Quote

Red Right Hand

Nick Cave

Take a little walk to the edge of town
And go across the tracks
Where the viaduct looms
Like a bird of doom
As it shifts and cracks
Where secrets lie in the border fires
In the humming wires
Hey man, you know
You're never coming back

Past the square, past the bridge
Past the mills, past the stacks
On a gathering storm comes
A tall handsome man
In a dusty black coat with
A red right hand

He'll wrap you in his arms,
Tell you that you've been a good boy
He'll rekindle all the dreams
It took you a lifetime to destroy
He'll reach deep into the hole
Heal your shrinking soul
But there won't be a single thing that you can do

He's a god, he's a man
He's a ghost, he's a guru
They're whispering his name
Through this disappearing land
But hidden in his coat
Is a red right hand

You don't have no money?
He'll get you some
You don't have no car?
He'll get you one
You don't have no self-respect
You feel like an insect
Well don't you worry buddy
'Cause here he comes
Through the ghettos and the barrio
And the Bowery and the slum
A shadow is cast wherever he stands
Stacks of green paper in his
Red right hand

You'll see him in your nightmares
You'll see him in your dreams
He'll appear out of nowhere but
He ain't what he seems
You'll see him in your head
On the TV screen
Hey buddy, I'm warning
You to turn it off
He's a ghost, he's a god
He's a man, he's a guru
You're one microscopic cog
In his catastrophic plan
Designed and directed by
His red right hand

Ultimately a reference to Milton I think:

Quote

What if the breath that kindled those grim fires,
Awaked, should blow them into sevenfold rage,
And plunge us in the flames; or from above
Should intermitted vengeance arm again
His red right hand to plague us? 

--Paradise Lost (Book II, 170-174)

 

[LmL]

3 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I figured it was but I can't lie that it is interesting to image a scenario and Clegane-bowl bugs me. 

I don't even pay attention to theories like that except to briefly glance over them to see if anyone has made symbolic connections I might be interested in (as is often the case). Not that I look down on such theories - I don't hate on anyone's playtime - I just don't care to speculate. Maybe they will fight each other maybe not, I'm not sweating it. 

I do know the CleganeBowl people tend to be a bit obnoxious (or should we say they seem to revel in being obnoxious)...

 

[LmL]

29 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I figured it was but I can't lie that it is interesting to image a scenario and Clegane-bowl bugs me. 

You know what, Jon's dueling with Robb in that dream is enough buy itself to suggest Baldr / Hodr myth. It's also yet another example of the horned lord / oak king / holly king, bother on brother violence. 

[Pain killer Jane]

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Robb Stark's head on the Mountain?  I wasn't aware of that!  Please enlighten me

Thoroughly crackpottery I assure you. 

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good question. There is something obscenely sexual suggested by all those penetrating weirwood tendrils!   And the blood-weeping suggests some kind of violation.  I'll ponder it anon.

The beast with a  billion two backs. 

17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Primates are characterised by their eyes and grasping hands.  In the case of humans, the opposable thumb makes tool-making and handling so much more efficient that in any other animal species.  The importance of eyes and hands to humans is demonstrated by the relatively large area by which these faculties are represented on our cerebral hemispheres.  In the end, these appendages are extensions of our most glorious, transcendent and also most vicious tool -- our brain.  Tool-making is therefore associated with the potential both to help and to harm -- the dualism we've previously identified.  By extension, a hand can function both as a sword and a shield, i.e. both in attack/aggression and defense/protection.  In addition to its use as a weapon and perfecting our obsession with warcraft, hands can also be used towards a more creative and less destructive purpose than war.  This is GRRM's underlying hope.

What are we (humanity) going to do with the hands we've been given, dealt and extended?

Oh no now we gotta worry about cards.  when we have just started exploring the chess symbolism. But yes it makes sense along with the ears (of corns), tongues, legs, and sexual organs also having their own purposes and symbolism. You know this could be related to the woman in room with the dwarfs Dany sees. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Good question. There is something obscenely sexual suggested by all those penetrating weirwood tendrils!   And the blood-weeping suggests some kind of violation.  I'll ponder it anon.

Robb Stark's head on the Mountain?  I wasn't aware of that!  Please enlighten me.

Primates are characterised by their eyes and grasping hands.  In the case of humans, the opposable thumb makes tool-making and handling so much more efficient that in any other animal species.  The importance of eyes and hands to humans is demonstrated by the relatively large area by which these faculties are represented on our cerebral hemispheres.  In the end, these appendages are extensions of our most glorious, transcendent and also most vicious tool -- our brain.  Tool-making is therefore associated with the potential both to help and to harm -- the dualism we've previously identified.  By extension, a hand can function both as a sword and a shield, i.e. both in attack/aggression and defense/protection.  In addition to its use as a weapon and perfecting our obsession with warcraft, hands can also be used towards a more creative and less destructive purpose than war.  This is GRRM's underlying hope.

What are we (humanity) going to do with the hands we've been given, dealt and extended?

nice.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Yeah, that's why Bran aka Summer child with Summer wolf is in the cave where it is always Summer under the sea.

He's also personifying exactly what certain cultures perceived as a "night sun." Some, like the creators of MesoAmerican myth whose names are mostly lost to history, imagined a cave underground where the sun went at night. That is why Mayan night sun diety, Akbal, is also the god of terrestrial fire. The sun is underground, and that's why the earth has volcanoes and whatnot. Notice that Melisandre associates the fires of the earth with R'hllor just as she does the sun. Martin gives a clear allusion to the general concept of the sun being underground at night in ADWD:It's during that dream where Jon is in Ghost and the moon keeps saying "snow" in a raven's voice.

 

Quote

"Snow," the moon insisted.

 

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air.

That's Bran, the sun down inside his cave of night. 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

How does that figure into ''vampire ash' or dead trees'-- I thought the weirwoods were 'evergreen'; I mean 'everred'?  They aren't supposed to die in Winter.

Yeah, not dead dead, because they grow, but they are like ghost trees. And they do look like zombies... just noticed that when Ghost brings the hand of safer Flowers to the brothers swearing their oaths in the weirwood grove of nine, he's is compared to a weirwood while he has the corpse hand in his mouth. So it implies the trees as zombie eaters or flesh eaters, and of course that isn't the only time. BRAAAAAIIIINS....

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

The transformation might be due to your 'meteor-seeding' idea, which if correct might tie into your 'Dawn as magical tree wand' sword.  Might the 'heart trees' have some connection to the 'heart of a fallen star' out of which the sword was forged?

Very nice.  It reminds me of fireworks opening like a flower and impregnating the earth in a rejuvenating, though also deadly 'meteor shower'!

 

Regarding the 'Red Right Hand':

Ultimately a reference to Milton I think:

 

You make me want to re-watch Peeky Blinders... it's about that time anyway. (for those of you who don't know, that's a period-drama gangster show from netflix which uses that song as it's intro music).

[Isobel Harper]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

No, actually. Sansa is like a piece of fire moon that turns into the ice moon or becomes a part of the ice  moon, while Arya represents a death goddess– which would be Azor Ahai reborn – the black meteor. That's why she's a dark  heart and a blood child. I suppose you could view her as a solar character turned into the dark sun – all of her cat symbolism lends itself to that. 

Red or black, a meteor is still a meteor.  Heh. 

I recall you drawing the conclusion that Sansa was a comet/meteor in Joffrey's death scene from one if your podcast.  But couldn't Sansa "darkening Joffrey's face" (to paraphrase) also place her as a solar symbol?  The SUN "killed" the moon when the moon got too close to the sun in some tales.  (During his wedding feast, Joffrey does keep going up to Tyrion, who is seated next to Sansa, making him literally getting "too close" to Sansa; and Joffrey threatens Sansa numerous times with rape, even at the wedding feast, figuratively trying to get "too close" to Sansa.)  If Daenerys changes from a lunar to a solar figure during Drogo's death/funeral (ie the alchemical wedding), why not Sansa, who also kills a king?  And wouldn't the dark "amethysts" (Strangler) be the dark meteors, not Sansa?  Not trying to be argumentative.  Just trying to better understand the symbolism. 

Also, could you quickly explain the red/black dichotomy? You categorized (if I'm recalling correctly) red and black as something "before" and "after" the moon dies...