LmL

Skinchanger Zombies: Jon, the Last Hero, and Coldhands

453 posts in this topic

35 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Red or black, a meteor is still a meteor.  Heh. 

I recall you drawing the conclusion that Sansa was a comet/meteor in Joffrey's death scene from one if your podcast.  But couldn't Sansa "darkening Joffrey's face" (to paraphrase) also place her as a solar symbol?  The SUN "killed" the moon when the moon got too close to the sun in some tales.  (During his wedding feast, Joffrey does keep going up to Tyrion, who is seated next to Sansa, making him literally getting "too close" to Sansa; and Joffrey threatens Sansa numerous times with rape, even at the wedding feast, figuratively trying to get "too close" to Sansa.)  If Daenerys changes from a lunar to a solar figure during Drogo's death/funeral (ie the alchemical wedding), why not Sansa, who also kills a king?  And wouldn't the dark "amethysts" (Strangler) be the dark meteors, not Sansa?  Not trying to be argumentative.  Just trying to better understand the symbolism. 

Also, could you quickly explain the red/black dichotomy? You categorized (if I'm recalling correctly) red and black as something "before" and "after" the moon dies...

Nope.  Joffrey is definitely the solar king, and here's the thing - the sun kills the moon first, but then the moon meteors are the things which turn out the lights - the moon kills the sun. Or you might say, the children of the sun and moon kill the sun... it all depends on the perspective of the given metaphor. What Sansa is doing here is lunar revenge. It is the smoke of the moon explosion and the meter which darkens the sun's face, and that is exactly what the amethysts snakes do, darkened the face of the sun. Sansa's pretty little head is the moon, and the snakes come from the moon. 

Dany transitions from fire moon to reborn comet / new solar king, yes. Sansa doesn't do that, however - she instead goes and gets lodged in a symbol of an icy moon, the Vale. That is the path of SOME of the fire moon meteors - some hit the ice moon as shrapnel. Sansa is moon shrapnel. But that fire moon shrapnel, according to my theory, is what animates the ice moon and makes it all active and burny like fire. Sansa becomes the icy moon queen, in essence. Thats' what is happening in her snow castle scene - she retains fire, with her kissed by fire hair and red cheeks, but she is covered over in snow, making child's snow knights (Others), and mimicking the Night's Queen in other ways... and the NQ is of course the original icy moon maiden. 

Sansa's moon snakes darkening Joffrey's solar face is actually one of themes perfect depictions of the "revenge of the moon" anywhere in the series. 

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6 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Well... 

I think this all has sth to do with mistletoe being a parasite growing on trees - Bran entering the tree and Bloodraven seem to be parasites for weirwood -  trees don't need them, they are essentially immortal, and I wonder what effect on them humans and COTF have - maybe Bran somehow drains their power?

 

I want to play R'hllor's advocate here and speculate the opposite: weirwoods and greenseers are symbiotic. I offer no textual evidence here (maybe when I have both the time and inclination), but from a literary perspective, the relationship seems intertwined on multiple levels, suggesting more than convenient coincidence. What purpose does a magical tree have without a sentient thing to use it? What good are greenseers without their weirwoods? I guess you could ask what good magic mushrooms are without a person to trip balls on them, but unlike good literature, reality is full of meaningless dead ends.

I know in another thread I disagreed with the idea of anything Ent-like showing up in Ice and Fire, but we do see a similar spectrum of sentience here. In LoTR, we know that the Elves 'woke' the trees to create the Ents, that if Ents are inactive for too long, they become 'tree-ish', and the Ents definitely think of the trees as different creatures from themselves. Likewise, we have a spectrum going CoTF>Greenseers>weirwood>pale stone. The weirwoods are more than windows, they actually contain the memories of the things they and their users have seen. All that said, I'm not ready to conclude that weirwoods are CoTF who stood still too long and turned tree-ish.

And on a side note: if weirwood turns into pale stone... do the ebony "shade of the evening" trees turn into the oily stone?

Edited by cgrav

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14 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I want to play R'hllor's advocate here and speculate the opposite: weirwoods and greenseers are symbiotic. I offer no textual evidence here (maybe when I have both the time and inclination), but from a literary perspective, the relationship seems intertwined on multiple levels, suggesting more than convenient coincidence. What purpose does a magical tree have without a sentient thing to use it? What good are greenseers without their weirwoods? I guess you could ask what good magic mushrooms are without a person to trip balls on them, but unlike good literature, reality is full of meaningless dead ends.

 

Your point about magic mushrooms is eminently within bounds and quite poignant Ser. They are indeed little good without a young mind in need of consciousness expansion. 

Basically, I see the symbiotic explanation as the most obvious one, the one we are essentially presented with. But because of the pain and rage expressed on the weirwood faces, I am also interested in exploring more sinister variants of this idea. 

14 minutes ago, cgrav said:



I know in another thread I disagreed with the idea of anything Ent-like showing up in Ice and Fire, but we do see a similar spectrum of sentience here. In LoTR, we know that the Elves 'woke' the trees to create the Ents, that if Ents are inactive for too long, they become 'tree-ish', and the Ents definitely think of the trees as different creatures from themselves. Likewise, we have a spectrum going CoTF>Greenseers>weirwood>pale stone. The weirwoods are more than windows, they actually contain the memories of the things they and their users have seen. All that said, I'm not ready to conclude that weirwoods are CoTF who stood still too long and turned tree-ish.

 

It would not have been the cotf turning into trees. It would have been the Garths, the horned ones. 

14 minutes ago, cgrav said:



And on a side note: if weirwood turns into pale stone... do the ebony "shade of the evening" trees turn into the oily stone?

Asshai originally built from black trees, confirmed. ;)

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Your stuff always makes for a good read. I especially enjoyed these new ones, even without the astronomy. Good stuff.

Also.. while reading your article.. something kind of jumped out at me. The zodiac thing.. (someone may have mentioned this already, I only skimmed the first page)

There's a less known "thirteenth" zodiac sign represented by Ophiuchus. A couple of cool things.. Ophiuchus is sometimes identified with Asclepius, a son of Apollo who was a great healer. So good a healer, in fact, that supposedly he brought the dead back to life. Son of a sun with resurrection powers. The snake with the Ophiuchus sign (Ophiuchus is a man holding a serpent) is the Ouroboros. This is a huge serpent that eats it's own tail. It devours itself, but never runs out of snake to eat. It represents death and rebirth, which ties into the resurrection ability of his handler. Also worth noting.. Ouroboros is usually depicted with a sort of head thing that.. gets this.. looks like horns. 

Back again to Asclepius, the symbol for medicine (the two serpents intertwined) is actually named after him. I don't know how healing figures in here (aside from coming back from the dead) but it is woven serpents and does make for good imagery, if nothing else.

 

 

Edit: left out my whole point.. the 13th zodiac represents the Messiah figure, in a way. He had 12 companions and could defeat death.

Edited by Cagey Bee

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17 minutes ago, Cagey Bee said:

Your stuff always makes for a good read. I especially enjoyed these new ones, even without the astronomy. Good stuff.

Also.. while reading your article.. something kind of jumped out at me. The zodiac thing.. (someone may have mentioned this already, I only skimmed the first page)

There's a less known "thirteenth" zodiac sign represented by Ophiuchus. A couple of cool things.. Ophiuchus is sometimes identified with Asclepius, a son of Apollo who was a great healer. So good a healer, in fact, that supposedly he brought the dead back to life. Son of a sun with resurrection powers. The snake with the Ophiuchus sign (Ophiuchus is a man holding a serpent) is the Ouroboros. This is a huge serpent that eats it's own tail. It devours itself, but never runs out of snake to eat. It represents death and rebirth, which ties into the resurrection ability of his handler. Also worth noting.. Ouroboros is usually depicted with a sort of head thing that.. gets this.. looks like horns. 

Back again to Asclepius, the symbol for medicine (the two serpents intertwined) is actually named after him. I don't know how healing figures in here (aside from coming back from the dead) but it is woven serpents and does make for good imagery, if nothing else.

 

 

Edit: left out my whole point.. the 13th zodiac represents the Messiah figure, in a way. He had 12 companions and could defeat death.

GAHHHH, STOP IT, you're ruining my future unborn essay!!! LoL... kinda true though. Ixnay on the Ophiuchusay!!  Ixnay, I say! See, George is doing a thing with the zodiac. Libra is the only sign of the zodiac which is not an animal or person, so he combined it with Virgo, who actually holds the scales of Libra anyway. This creates the "Just Maid, "Fair maid" character, which Martin does a lot with.  She's a fair maid, a virgin with the scales of justice... ha ha. The maiden fair.  Anyway, that leaves a whole, which he filled with Ophiuchus.  

I should mention that I am referring to a specific place in the text where we are given clear representations of the zodiac symbols, and this is what has happened. Libra combined with Virgo, Ophiuchus swapped in. The 13th in this equation is the Morningstar figure, who is also tied to the SOTM constellation, unsurprisingly. SOTM is Orion, who also sort of strides the ecliptic like Ophiuchus (he's actually just beneath it, in the underworld you might say). 

But yeah, ixnay my brother. :) 

But hey, I'm very glad you liked the essay - it was kind of fun to put the astronomy aspect aside and write an entire bit without typing the word "meteor." I thought it was a real sign of progress for me, lol. I was basically working on something else and I thought I would just write a quick thing on how Jon will be zombie skinchanger because that equips him to fight the Others... and I ended up with three parts. It's been a lot of fun, I love it when a line of research takes off like that. 

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5 hours ago, LmL said:

but what are the trees getting out of the bargain?

What do plants ever get out of it?

They trap light energy via photosynthesis so that we can walk around and destroy them.

And then after we die, they eat us.

5 hours ago, LmL said:

But what's the point? What do the weirwoods gain by trapping a few greenseers?

The merwives -- greenseers -- wear nennymoans --weirwoods -- in their hair.  What do the nennymoans get out of it?  Great question.  They parasitize our brains, sitting in prime position on our heads?

5 hours ago, LmL said:

perhaps the weirwoods are gaining something from the greenseers they could not have otherwise  - what could this be

Survival.  Plants cannot survive without people who respect the planet.

5 hours ago, LmL said:
5 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening."

Ok, now THAT might be what the weirwoods are doing with the greenseers. This is in regards to the questions I asked in the above post. 

So you're saying the Starks are the shepherds of the trees?

4 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Oh no now we gotta worry about cards. ;) when we have just started exploring the chess symbolism

I know, it's lamentable.  And I'm such a bad game-player!  At least I can recognise when people such as Littlefinger and Varys are cheating.

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Martin gives a clear allusion to the general concept of the sun being underground at night in ADWD:It's during that dream where Jon is in Ghost and the moon keeps saying "snow" in a raven's voice.

 

Quote

"Snow," the moon insisted.

 

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air.

That's Bran, the sun down inside his cave of night. 

I'm not following you.  How can Bran be a moon figure?

I don't think that's Bran.  That cackling voice (the guttural 'laugh' in triplicate) is malicious.

4 hours ago, LmL said:

BRAAAAAIIIINS...

How is your brain arriving at 'brains' LmL...you have a most unusual brain!

4 hours ago, LmL said:

You make me want to re-watch Peeky Blinders...

That song makes me want to re-visit Budapest...must be all that bloodsucking!

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Red or black, a meteor is still a meteor.  Heh. 

I recall you drawing the conclusion that Sansa was a comet/meteor in Joffrey's death scene from one if your podcast.  But couldn't Sansa "darkening Joffrey's face" (to paraphrase) also place her as a solar symbol?  The SUN "killed" the moon when the moon got too close to the sun in some tales.  (During his wedding feast, Joffrey does keep going up to Tyrion, who is seated next to Sansa, making him literally getting "too close" to Sansa; and Joffrey threatens Sansa numerous times with rape, even at the wedding feast, figuratively trying to get "too close" to Sansa.)  If Daenerys changes from a lunar to a solar figure during Drogo's death/funeral (ie the alchemical wedding), why not Sansa, who also kills a king?  And wouldn't the dark "amethysts" (Strangler) be the dark meteors, not Sansa?  Not trying to be argumentative.  Just trying to better understand the symbolism. 

Also, could you quickly explain the red/black dichotomy? You categorized (if I'm recalling correctly) red and black as something "before" and "after" the moon dies...

Sansa is the unknown factor.  Queen Elizabeth I.  I don't think anyone knows what she will do!  But she will change Planetos.

Edited by ravenous reader

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Ravenous, I didn't mean that bran was the moon in that equation. I meant that the cave of night where the sun hides is a reference to the idea of a sun going underground at night time – and that is what Bran is. 

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And the brains joke was referring to the weirwoods as zombie trees. 

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23 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey here friends and family. I got some fresh mythical astronomy for you, except there's actually no astronomy and you don't need to have read any of my previous writings. This is all about Jon Snow's destiny to become a resurrected skinchanger, how that works and most of all, why that is important.  

In the course of exploring this topic, I discovered that all of the horned god ideas in ASOIAF, such as the antler-helmed Baratheon Storm Lords (and the Durrandon Storm Kings before them), Garth the Green, and the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces, are tightly intertwined with all of the zombie action in the series.  In fact, I have found that the zombies really need to be viewed within the context of the death-and-resurrection cycle of the horned god, the green man, and other corn-king fertility gods who die in the fall or winter and resurrect again to bring the spring. ASOIAF is full of nature-cycle mythologies, with the corn king / horned god characters being but one example of such, and the big, fat problem in this world is the idea of the seasons getting stuck on winter - that's when the Long Night falls and the Others come. Ergo, our heroes (like Jon and the original last hero) need to achieve the fertility god task of turning the seasons, which the fertility god always accomplishes through death and resurrection. That's one of the reason why Jon is dead right now.

As for the zombies, they are emblematic of a violation of the life cycle, just as the Long Night violates the nature cycle and the day / night cycle. But the thing is, our heroic deeds much be performed during the Long Night, during the winter, and during the winter the fertility god is dead. And that's why... we need a hero who is dead, or rather undead. That is going to be Jon this time, and in the past, I believe it was the last hero - meaning, I believe the last hero was also a skinchanger zombie like Jon is about to be.

The skinchanger part is important, because I believe the ability of a skinchanger's soul to be temporarily stored in his or her animal may enable the creation of a better zombie than, say, Beric or lady Stoneheart.  I'll get into all of that in the essay, plus my take on how Coldhands fits into this and why I believe he is a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer who can still access his greenseer magic. As usual, you can choose to read the essay version or listen to the podcast version.  The essay version is right here at lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and the podcast can be found at the same link or in iTunes. I also have some pictures of a great elk, which are truly terrifying beasts - you need to click the link for the elk pictures alone, trust me.

Cheers everyone and I look forward to hearing your take. Part 2 is actually out already, and Part 3 is in the works - originally, it was all one episode which I split in parts. Part 2 Focuses on the King of Winter anyhow he overlaps with the last hero and Azor Ahai, as well as garth and the Green Men. Part 3 will deal with the idea of an undead company of Night's Watch brothers, which is what I think the last hero's party of 12 companions were. 

Well this so far makes a lot of sense; the whole story may contain other elements such as the relationship of ice and fire etc but I could certainly see your ideas going in the right direction.

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Snip

This raises a thousand questions.. zodiac stuff...

Like.. does the zodiac represent the companions or the hero? Or a combination? MorningStarfall? Did the Daynes bring Azor Again back to life? - redacted-. Just Maid, how did i miss that?

Edited by Cagey Bee
No reason.. I just like edits..

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Night night.

Sleep recharges the neurons.

:)

1 hour ago, LmL said:

And the brains joke was referring to the weirwoods as zombie trees. 

Thanks.

You may rest.

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6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Night night.

Sleep recharges the neurons.

:)

Thanks.

You may rest.

LoL ravenous, nite nite sleep tight ;)

51 minutes ago, Cagey Bee said:

This raises a thousand questions.. zodiac stuff...

Like.. does the zodiac represent the companions or the hero? Or a combination? MorningStarfall? Did the Daynes bring Azor Again back to life? - redacted-. Just Maid, how did i miss that?

Yes, the companions of the LH. LH is the +1, but then there is one other figure as well, the AA senior figure. At the end of the essay, I talked about the cycle of garth on garth violence, of the LH being killed by an AA figure. Think about the AA figure as a priest performing the sacrifice and resurrection, that may be the thing. Or it could be a father - son conflict in which the son is slain but then raised. Point is, there is the 12+1, and then there is a foil. LH = Morningstar / SOTM, zodiac = 12 companions, and the NK, the foil, is the darkness of space and of the black meteors. The Stranger, the NK, the Lion of Night. It's the void of space, the tomb and the womb both - from the further reaches of the void comes the wanderer from far places, the Stranger, the death messenger - Azor Ahai the killer comet. 

Yeah, the Just Maid / Fair Maid thing is really rich. ;)

1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Well this so far makes a lot of sense; the whole story may contain other elements such as the relationship of ice and fire etc but I could certainly see your ideas going in the right direction.

Oh yes, no one sense can be exclusive; George is far too amazing for that.  He's incorporating way too many things for any one view to explain it all. But the link between zombies and the corn king / resurrected fertility god cycle seem very strong, and make a lot of sense in a GRRM type of way. Be sure to come back and comment after you read the whole thing (or listen if you prefer). 

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2 minutes ago, LmL said:

LoL ravenous, nite nite sleep tight ;)

You are too funny.  

You can call me RR; I am not very 'ravenous!'!

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

It's the void of space, the tomb and the womb both

You definitely need to have a good sleep.  Of that much I'm certain. 

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5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You are too funny.  

You can call me RR; I am not very 'ravenous!'!

You'r more of a writer than a reader, aren't you? Actually you seem very well read, but I can't resist jabbing you for your long comments:)  

(long and excellent, of course)

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You definitely need to have a good sleep.  Of that much I'm certain. 

Nah man I was juts waxing poetic about the stranger, a shadow with two stars for eyes. It's a portrait of outer space, and it's based on the goddess Kali, the black one, whose blackness represents the darkness in between the stars. She is the creator and destroyer, the womb and the tomb both. That is what I am talking about. George's death god mythology is very, very cool - the lion of night is a night sun, the Stranger is like Kali as I was saying, and the stranger is tied to comets because he's the "wanderer from far off places," which is a comet... It's good stuff. 

Edited by LmL

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4 minutes ago, LmL said:

You'r more of a writer than a reader, aren't you? Actually you seem very well read, but I can't resist jabbing you for your long comments:)  

lol.  I am more of a writer.  Long comments?  I believe it's called 'pulling an LmL'... 

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

You'r more of a writer than a reader, aren't you? Actually you seem very well read, but I can't resist jabbing you for your long comments:)  

(long and excellent, of course)

Nah man I was juts waxing poetic about the stranger, a shadow with two stars for eyes. It's a portrait of outer space, and it's based on the goddess Kali, the black one, whose blackness represents the darkness in between the stars. She is the creator and destroyer, the womb and the tomb both. That is what I am talking about. George's death god mythology is very, very cool - the lion of night is a night sun, the Stranger is like Kali as I was saying, and the stranger is tied to comets because he's the "wanderer from far off places," which is a comet... It's good stuff. 

The long comments -- yes, reveals an ambivalence at the heart of the lyrical wax.

My goodness.  How much have you had to drink?  Time to put the head on the pillow, dear sol/soul.

 

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Here is story of Odin's sword Gram - 'Wrath'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_(mythology)?wprov=sfla1

"Gram is primarily seen in the Volsunga Sagaused by men in the Volsung line after Sigmund. Sigmund receives it during the wedding feast for his sister, Signy. Part of the way through the feast a strange man appears carrying a sword. Although unknown to Sigmund, this is the God Odin. He thrusts the sword into the Barnstokkr tree that grew in the middle of the hall and said, “The man to pull out this sword from the trunk shall receive it from me as a gift and he will find out for himself that he never bore in hand a better sword than this.” Soon after he departed every man made his attempt to pull the sword out of the wood. All fail except Sigmund who easily extracts it. The sword is a fine sword, and King Siggeir is covetous of it, offering Sigmund three times its weight in gold. When he refuses, King Siggeir grows angry and secretly begins plotting to steal it from Sigmund, eventually killing his father and capturing him and all of his brothers. After this the sword disappears from the narrative until Signy secretly gives it back to Sigmund as he is buried alive with Sinfjotli. After Sigmund avenges his family, he uses the sword in several battles before it is eventually broken by Odin during Sigmund's final battle with the King Lyngvi. Borghild, Sigmund's wife, takes up the two halves of the blade and keeps them for Sigurd, their son.

After Gram was broken by Odin, Borghild took the two halves and kept them for her future son. Soon the dwarven smith, Regin, comes and begins teaching Sigurd. After a period of time, he tells Sigurd of the mighty dragon, Fafnir, and the treasure which it guards, asking Sigurd to slay it for him. Sigurd agrees on one condition: that Regin make him a mighty sword capable of slaying such a monster.

Regin confidently makes Sigurd an admirable sword, but when Sigurd sees it, he is disappointed and breaks it over the anvil. On his second attempt, Regin makes him a sword superior to the last, but it also breaks. On his third attempt, Sigurd brings Regin the two halves of Gram, his father's sword, and when he strikes the anvil with Gram, it is cloven in two. Once he tested the strength of the sword, he left the workshop and went to a nearby stream to check its edge. Throwing a piece of wool upstream, he lets it press against Gram, causing it to be sliced through. After testing the blade's sharpness, he uses it to avenge his father, Sigmund, slaying King Lyngvi. Of the many feats done by Gram, by far the most well known and important is the slaying of Fafnir the dragon. This deed is accomplished by Sigurd with a single, mighty thrust to the left shoulder where he drives the sword so deep he gets his arms bloodied up to the shoulder. Eventually Sigurd uses Gram as a sign of chastity putting it between himself, who at the time was in Gunnar’s form, and Brynhild Gunnar’s wife. After this the sword is no longer found in the manuscript"

 

Blade broken into two halves...

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14 hours ago, LmL said:

You know what, Jon's dueling with Robb in that dream is enough buy itself to suggest Baldr / Hodr myth. It's also yet another example of the horned lord / oak king / holly king, bother on brother violence. 

I know it is an over and done used example but Cain and Able is a really good one Cain means metal smith and Able means herdsmen. While the Torah says they fought over God's love and jealousy over which sacrifice was better, in the Quran  it says they fought over who got to marry their beautiful sister, mind you there was another sister for one of them to marry....

So in AA/BSE we have the blacksmith killing his sister-wife instead of the parallel of killing his brother and since these batch of essays it seems that the brother fighting brother is a missing part of AA/BSE mythos. 

Oh and apparently there is a medieval legend that the shadows of moon is Cain (the eternal wander) with twigs and according to Dante 

Quote

For now doth Cain with fork of thorns confine
On either hemisphere, touching the wave
Beneath the towers of Seville. Yesternight
The moon was round.

 

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3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Here is story of Odin's sword Gram - 'Wrath'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_(mythology)?wprov=sfla1

"Gram is primarily seen in the Volsunga Sagaused by men in the Volsung line after Sigmund. Sigmund receives it during the wedding feast for his sister, Signy. Part of the way through the feast a strange man appears carrying a sword. Although unknown to Sigmund, this is the God Odin. He thrusts the sword into the Barnstokkr tree that grew in the middle of the hall and said, “The man to pull out this sword from the trunk shall receive it from me as a gift and he will find out for himself that he never bore in hand a better sword than this.” Soon after he departed every man made his attempt to pull the sword out of the wood. All fail except Sigmund who easily extracts it. The sword is a fine sword, and King Siggeir is covetous of it, offering Sigmund three times its weight in gold. When he refuses, King Siggeir grows angry and secretly begins plotting to steal it from Sigmund, eventually killing his father and capturing him and all of his brothers. After this the sword disappears from the narrative until Signy secretly gives it back to Sigmund as he is buried alive with Sinfjotli. After Sigmund avenges his family, he uses the sword in several battles before it is eventually broken by Odin during Sigmund's final battle with the King Lyngvi. Borghild, Sigmund's wife, takes up the two halves of the blade and keeps them for Sigurd, their son.

After Gram was broken by Odin, Borghild took the two halves and kept them for her future son. Soon the dwarven smith, Regin, comes and begins teaching Sigurd. After a period of time, he tells Sigurd of the mighty dragon, Fafnir, and the treasure which it guards, asking Sigurd to slay it for him. Sigurd agrees on one condition: that Regin make him a mighty sword capable of slaying such a monster.

Regin confidently makes Sigurd an admirable sword, but when Sigurd sees it, he is disappointed and breaks it over the anvil. On his second attempt, Regin makes him a sword superior to the last, but it also breaks. On his third attempt, Sigurd brings Regin the two halves of Gram, his father's sword, and when he strikes the anvil with Gram, it is cloven in two. Once he tested the strength of the sword, he left the workshop and went to a nearby stream to check its edge. Throwing a piece of wool upstream, he lets it press against Gram, causing it to be sliced through. After testing the blade's sharpness, he uses it to avenge his father, Sigmund, slaying King Lyngvi. Of the many feats done by Gram, by far the most well known and important is the slaying of Fafnir the dragon. This deed is accomplished by Sigurd with a single, mighty thrust to the left shoulder where he drives the sword so deep he gets his arms bloodied up to the shoulder. Eventually Sigurd uses Gram as a sign of chastity putting it between himself, who at the time was in Gunnar’s form, and Brynhild Gunnar’s wife. After this the sword is no longer found in the manuscript"

 

Blade broken into two halves...

I have to wonder if a broken blade isn't just a euphemism for castration. I wonder if it alludes to a rupture between siblings? 

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I have to wonder if a broken blade isn't just a euphemism for castration. I wonder if it alludes to a rupture between siblings? 

I can see that. But I think the top-layer metaphor is the same as the Corn King archetype: death and rebirth. Siblings are tied in to that idea, too, as the topic's essay notes (and feature prominently in other myths concerning duality).

I like the Gram story because it's a sword symbol that hasn't come up in Ice and Fire yet, and I expect it to soon. I personally think that the new Lightbringer sword could be a result of a broken sword being reforged or two swords being combined. If we are right that some or all of the Valyrian steel swords are fashioned from meteor material, it would fit perfectly with the "not of this earth" divine origin of Gram.

Edited by cgrav

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I have to wonder if a broken blade isn't just a euphemism for castration. I wonder if it alludes to a rupture between siblings? 

Well, not "just," but that is likely part of it, since Aphrodite the Morningstar is born of Zeus's castration. Lightbringer is, in a sense, a falling dick or set of nuts. Snip snip!

3 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I can see that. But I think the top-layer metaphor is the same as the Corn King archetype: death and rebirth. Siblings are tied in to that idea, too, as the topic's essay notes (and feature prominently in other myths concerning duality).

Yes, and the broken sword appears all over the place, from the last hero to Ned's sword to the banners of the second son to Beric's sword against Hound to the Titan of Bravos to Petyr Baelish's mantlepiece - the last hero has a broken sword. It's a thing.  I would relate this back to what I perceive as the comet splitting, something I picked up on right at the beginning.  And of course LB is forged three times... well let me get into Blue Tiger's comments here. 

3 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I like the Gram story because it's a sword symbol that hasn't come up in Ice and Fire yet, and I expect it to soon. I personally think that the new Lightbringer sword could be a result of a broken sword being reforged or two swords being combined. If we are right that some or all of the Valyrian steel swords are fashioned from meteor material, it would fit perfectly with the "not of this earth" divine origin of Gram.

Yeah, this is an idea which occurred to me at the very beginning as well... Tywin's remark about Ice having enough steel for two blades was what tipped me off. Be nice to put those two back together maybe. Can we make Dawn and Oathkeeper do the nasty and make a shadowskin striped baby? Jon has an interesting dream of swapping the heads of Gilly's Monster baby (ice) and Mance Rayder's Aemon Battleborn (fire), could that be a sword swapping metaphor?  We also have Longclaw, a black steel sword with a PALE STONE pommel, and we have Ilyn Payne's new sword, bright silver with runes except for it's black dragonglass skull pommel, and theres the black steel sword Nightfall, which has a moonstone (whitish blue) in its pommel. I have wondered about this for a long time - was the last hero's dragonsteel a result of mixing two types of swords? Do we need to do that again? 

Quote

There was life at the crossroads inn, though. Even before they reached the gate, Brienne heard the sound: a hammering, faint but steady. It had a steely ring. “A forge,” Ser Hyle said. “Either they have themselves a smith, or the old innkeep’s ghost is making another iron dragon.

The old iron dragon was the clanking dragon sign - pieces of a black dragon that were thrown into the river (a sea dragon moon meteor metaphor). The person making a NEW iron dragon (either new sword or new mortar shower or both) is both a smith and a ghost, it turns out:
 

Quote

“Worse?” Brienne asked. “Thieves,” said a boy’s voice from the stables. “Robbers.” Brienne turned, and saw a ghost. Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. “My lord?” she gasped. “Lord?” The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. “I’m just a smith.

Gendry is a smith and a ghost - a ghost of a horned lord. He's making a new iron dragon. He also gives moon maidens hammer blows to the heart - and Brienne the Blue is an icy moon maiden, with her black sword a symbol of the black meteor which I believe is lodged in the ice moon. Gentry's hammer blow therefore describes an interaction with the ice moon, something which I believe will happen soon - meaning, this is a foreshadowing of a meteor event yet to come, I think. Thus, Gentry making a new iron dragon sword could be a future event as well.

Quote

 

Brienne sucked in her breath and drew Oathkeeper. Too many, she thought, with a start of fear, they are too many. “Gendry,” she said in a low voice, “you’ll want a sword, and armor. These are not your friends. They’re no one’s friends.” 

“What are you talking about?” The boy came and stood beside her, his hammer in his hand. Lightning cracked to the south as the riders swung down off their horses. For half a heartbeat darkness turned to day. An axe gleamed silvery blue, light shimmered off mail and plate, and beneath the dark hood of the lead rider Brienne glimpsed an iron snout and rows of steel teeth, snarling.
. . . 
The door to the inn banged open. Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words.  (AFFC, Brienne)

 

"Hammer in his hand / Lightning cracked" - that's Thor's lightning hammer, cleverly hidden across the boundary of sentences.  That's no surprise, as Robert is a Thor character and Gentry is his son. Igf there is anyone to forge a new sword, I'd have to say it's Gentry, right? People were on to that already, so this whole scene could be foreshadowing of him doing something like that. Oathkeeper is right here in the scene too. Brienne draws it and then immediately tells Gentry he will want a sword - and then he grabs his hammer, as if to start forging one. With lighting and such... y'all get the idea. 

All these lightnings and hammerings and iron dragons appearing together is pretty nice for my thoery that the hammer of the waters, Storm God's thunderbolt, and sea dragon / dragons from the moon myths are all part of the same story.  
 

5 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Here is story of Odin's sword Gram - 'Wrath'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_(mythology)?wprov=sfla1

"Gram is primarily seen in the Volsunga Sagaused by men in the Volsung line after Sigmund. Sigmund receives it during the wedding feast for his sister, Signy. Part of the way through the feast a strange man appears carrying a sword. Although unknown to Sigmund, this is the God Odin. He thrusts the sword into the Barnstokkr tree that grew in the middle of the hall and said, “The man to pull out this sword from the trunk shall receive it from me as a gift and he will find out for himself that he never bore in hand a better sword than this.” Soon after he departed every man made his attempt to pull the sword out of the wood. All fail except Sigmund who easily extracts it. (It's the tree version of the sword in the stone, and you have to think martin would be tempted to play with both myths - and lo and behold, his trees turn to pale stone, the same thing you make a Dawn out of.  Those trees are heart trees, and Dawn is made from the heart of a star. The weirwood gate glows like milk and moonlight, Dawn is pale as milkglass and alive with light.  The Others pale swords are alive with moonlight and the Others themselves are milky white and sword slim, with bones like milkglass. You can go round and round with the symbolism of the wierwoods and the Others and Dawn - the weirwoods are bone white, like the Others' hands, which are made of milkglass, and so on - which tells me they are related.) The sword is a fine sword, and King Siggeir is covetous of it, offering Sigmund three times its weight in gold. When he refuses, King Siggeir grows angry and secretly begins plotting to steal it from Sigmund, eventually killing his father and capturing him and all of his brothers. After this the sword disappears from the narrative until Signy secretly gives it back to Sigmund as he is buried alive with Sinfjotli. (Who is buried alive where now?) After Sigmund avenges his family, he uses the sword in several battles before it is eventually broken by Odin during Sigmund's final battle with the King Lyngvi. Borghild, Sigmund's wife, takes up the two halves of the blade and keeps them for Sigurd, their son.

So, Sigmund dies when his sword breaks, i assume? Interesting that Odin bestowed Gran on Sigmund, essentially, but then later broke it? What to make of that? Why did Odin do this, and who is Lyngvi?

Obviously this reminds us of the last hero' broken sword. The fact that the broken sword is taken up by his son after being reforged fits my ideas about the LH and AA being a father son duo, doesn't it? There is a line about "broken swords can be reforged, broken swords can still kill" which  I think is highly significant. 

After Gram was broken by Odin, Borghild took the two halves and kept them for her future son. Soon the dwarven smith, Regin, comes and begins teaching Sigurd. After a period of time, he tells Sigurd of the mighty dragon, Fafnir, and the treasure which it guards, asking Sigurd to slay it for him. Sigurd agrees on one condition: that Regin make him a mighty sword capable of slaying such a monster.

So, the magic sword is a dragon killer? George could be simply swapping in Others for dragons here, because he doesn't use the examples one for one, but rather adapts them to fit his web of ideas. But, he might have used that idea if Dawn is a dragon killer, as I would think it would be if it a sword made with ice magic. 

Regin confidently makes Sigurd an admirable sword, but when Sigurd sees it, he is disappointed and breaks it over the anvil. On his second attempt, Regin makes him a sword superior to the last, but it also breaks. On his third attempt, Sigurd brings Regin the two halves of Gram, his father's sword, and when he strikes the anvil with Gram, it is cloven in two.

Ok, pretty obvious Lightbringer three forging parallel here, right? The details don't correlate but the basic notion that Gram's second coming is a three attempts to forge it story, we know that at the very least we should consider the Gram mythology in accordance with Lightbringer.  

Once he tested the strength of the sword, he left the workshop and went to a nearby stream to check its edge. Throwing a piece of wool upstream, he lets it press against Gram, causing it to be sliced through. After testing the blade's sharpness, he uses it to avenge his father, Sigmund, slaying King Lyngvi. Of the many feats done by Gram, by far the most well known and important is the slaying of Fafnir the dragon. This deed is accomplished by Sigurd with a single, mighty thrust to the left shoulder where he drives the sword so deep he gets his arms bloodied up to the shoulder. Eventually Sigurd uses Gram as a sign of chastity putting it between himself, who at the time was in Gunnar’s form, and Brynhild Gunnar’s wife. After this the sword is no longer found in the manuscript"

 

Blade broken into two halves...

Jon uses his wolf in place of a sword to lie between him and Ygritte, if you recall, and Jon's wold and his sword are symbolically linked. Interesting that the sword being reforged thing was a story about someone losing and having their sword broken, only to get up off the mat in the form of his son and reforged sword and then going back to kill the person who kicked their ass last time. You imagine the last hero getting killed by the others, the children saving him and raising him, and somehow helping him to reforge his sword, perhaps with a new ingredient or magic... and then the LH has to go back out and fight the Others. That's something like what I am getting at with my OP (yea! back to the OP!), a story about the last hero and his companions being killed and raised from the dead. 

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