Skinchanger Zombies: Jon, the Last Hero, and Coldhands

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 Yay!!! 

Now the limes are tricky because it can refer to the fruit

the corrosive material lime 

or the burnt bones of coral 

and there are references to lime juice being used to fight off disease

so since there are people at the wall that are carriers of Greyscale, they are screwed now that all their limes are gone. And since we know that Meereen is being affected by the pale mare it is interesting that Missandei is giving wine to Dany with lime juice and then offers her more and I admit that it seems like Missandei is distracting Dany from asking her about the butterflies on Naath. 

this is historically correct on the usage of lime juice to stave off disease. British sailors were given the nickname 'limey' because the British navy used limes and lime juice to stave off scurvy which is a deficiency  of Vitamin C, which among its symptoms are; bleeding gums, sore arms and legs, and digestion problems. And the lime juice was a closely guarded military secret.

And then we have lime juice used for killing.

 and then we have a very sneaky reference of lime juice being used to change the color of hair 

it wasn't gold it was lime juice. 

and to cover up a black dragon

And we know that washing in limes and foreign spices is a way to create The Strangler.

That's really cute, John the Fiddler as the strangler himself, haha. He represents a moon meteor for sure - his black dragon banner is planted in the mud by Bloodraven, then set on fire, giving rise to an exaggerated smoke plume. 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And there is another disease that comes from deer ticks called Lyme disease. 

Btw the quote with Sallador and Davos has a reference to the crucifixion 

Jesus and the disciples slept in the Garden of Gethsemane that was a grove of olive trees and it was there that Judas betrayed him. 

And it is related to the onion conversation between Davos and Melisandre. 

the Onion knight and his pearls of wisdom

So Davos is an Onion Knight Sailor with black sails (you can consider it to be a jolly roger and remember that there is a quote that when a pirate grew rich enough they became princes) and an onion that is actually a pearl and onions release a gas that cause tears as a defense mechanism like the spit shine the piece of dirt gets. And if the pearl = onion and pearl = Sansa the fire moon meteor inside ice moon then the onion = Sansa and we have another reason why there are bloody tears appearing. 

Davis is an AA reborn figure in many ways. He has the great "chasing the shadows" scene right before Stannis appears and threatens him by waving Lightbringer around. He's reborn through salt and smoke at the Blackwater. He has the hand injury so many AA people have. As Stannis's hand, it really drive the point home - he is the hand of the solar king, the meteors which are like fiery fingers. 

So, I think he is playing the Venus role here, as the "son of the sun" usually does. He brings the morning with an onion, an ice moon symbol, and another time he breaths death and nightfall in the form of the black shadows birthed by Melisandre, fire moo meteor symbols. 

As for the black ship, I think it serves as an invisible pedestal, such as the one which held up Gregor's gleaming white skull. It makes it look like a suspended moon. It's very like silver Dany riding on black drogon or black brother Jon and his white wolf - these pairing s represent a unity, but a black / white one. Or a person / shadow one - Ghost is a white shadow and Drogon a black Winged Shadow. Davos's banner shows a black ship and a white moon onion, and he is symbolized by the half rotten onion, half black and half white.  You have to split such and onion in half, which starts to get confusing for me. The morningstar in the story is really the comet - that's second sun, the son of the son idea - and the comet does indeed split.. but I thought the onion was a dead ringer for a moon, right?

I suppose the way to look at it might be this.  The white onions are likewise moon meteors - Others, essentially, the little bits of moon that fall from the sky. Davis is the comet, essentially, so one time the comet brings icy meteors, and one time it brings fiery black shadow meteors.  The white onion can therefore symbolize the ice moon itself, or the little ice moonlets that come from it. The half rotten idea would apply to the moon itself, half rotten because of the fire moon meteor poising it. 

[LmL]

7 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

"None taken, Ser Jaremy. My father is very fond of spiked heads, especially those of people who have annoyed him in some fashion. And a face as noble as yours, well, no doubt he saw you decorating the city wall above the King's Gate. I think you would have looked very striking up there."

That's George making a hammer joke at Jeramy's expense - his sigil is two crossed hammers. 

[Bluetiger]

And this:

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Ser Garlan laughed. "I was a plump little boy, I fear, and we do have an uncle called Garth the Gross. So Willas struck first, though not before threatening me with Garlan the Greensick, Garlan the Galling, and Garlan the Gargoyle."

Garth the Gargoyle? I don't get it.

And this... A boar? But what it means...

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Hams," Garth of Oldtown said, in a reverent voice. "There were pigs, last time we come. I bet he's got hams hid someplace. Smoked and salted hams, and bacon too."

 

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The onion knight had not forgotten Wyman Manderly's last words to him. Take this creature to the Wolf's Den and cut off head and hands, the fat lord had commanded. I shall not be able to eat a bite until I see this smuggler's head upon a spike, with an onion shoved between his lying teeth. Every night Davos went to sleep with those words in his head, and every morn he woke to them. And should he forget, Garth was always pleased to remind him. Dead man was his name for Davos. When he came by in the morning, it was always, "Here, porridge for the dead man." At night it was, "Blow out the candle, dead man.

Garth talking with a dead man... Is Davos a wight now, dark and strong to fight the cold of Skagos?

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For all its comforts, though, his cell remained a cell. Its walls were solid stone, so thick that he could hear nothing of the outside world. The door was oak and iron, and his keepers kept it barred. Four sets of heavy iron fetters dangled from the ceiling, waiting for the day Lord Manderly decided to chain him up and give him over to the Whore. Today may be that day. The next time Garth opens my door, it may not be to bring me porridge.

This porridge turns you into wight or prevents it or whatever?

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In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

So Garth The Hammer of Dornish....and the most famous Dornish Hammer is the one that broke the arm of Dorne... This supports your idea that human greenseers brought down the moon or at least Arm of Dorne.

And Garth Morningstar... Garth Lightbringer... 

And when we look at this:

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There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us.

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

Many of the more primitive peoples of the earth worship a fertility god or goddess, and Garth Greenhand has much and more in common with these deities.

So, if this one Garth's real story was twisted and he became a hero - probably the rest was twisted as well...

And finally, another connection beteween Starks and Garths and Green Men:

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When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come," King Garth IX said famously. "If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flocks when the pack comes ravening." King Gwayne V said it more succinctly. 

There's Garth Grey Eyes as well... And when we see grey eyes, they are nearly always associated with Starks.

[LmL]

9 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Jafer Flowers... A green man of the Reach

Sure, got that one...

9 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

And Othor, a horned wild hunt member...

Please explain!!!

9 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Of course they'll rise as wights...

 

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Our first POV, Will, was a poacher, caught while skinnig a buckle - a green man? - and he is the first POV to die.

Btw, one of the Westerlands knights captured at Whispering Wood is called Garth Greenfield - the trees are enemies of green men?

Later he is held captive at Raventree Hall... Is this what I think it is? Garth invades Riverlands and is imprisoned in a tree?

Well, a fishing weir is a fishgarth, and it is for trapping fish. A weirwood is a Garth tree, sure enough. There is a Garth stuck inside there. That's wattles scenes mean, I think - A green garth is caught int he weirwoodnet.  This wording suggests weirwoods might have been neutralizing a dangerous enemy? Or is this just a parasitic symbolistic relationship? 

And yeah, Garth going to Raventree as a prisoner seals it - that's a really good find. He is Job from the Lawnmower Man. 

So here's something from a future essay I will spoil for anyone reading this. The Old Gods are the horned lords. The horned lords were the first presence in the wierwoodnet (first non-tree presence anyway). Check this out, one of the names for the horned god is "Old Horny," and another "the Old One." Lovecraft uses the phrase "the old ones" too, more famously. One of the old ones was Yig, but not Yggdrasil the astral projection tree, Yig the father of serpents, a typical lovecraft alien creature that invade your mind form another dimension or something. So, what Martin has done is merged these ideas. "The Old Oens" are the horned humanoid folk, the green men, the horned lords, Garth, all of that - the Old Ones. They come from Leng apparently. I can't get into that right now, but there it is, The Old Ones make underground cities in Leng and crossbreed with humans to make very tall brown skinned people with large golden eyes that see in the dark. They must have come to Westeros, almost certainly as part of the GEOTD. In any case, the very first chapter where we see a weirwood, ne's chapter, it says:

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest. 

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. “The heart tree,” Ned called it. The weirwood’s bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep- cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle’s granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. 

Or when Jon says this, next to a straw man sentinel:

The gate is lost. Donal Noye had closed and chained it, but it was there for the taking, the iron bars glimmering red with reflected firelight, the cold black tunnel behind. No one had fallen back to defend it; the only safety was on top of the Wall, seven hundred feet up the crooked wooden stairs. “What gods do you pray to?” Jon asked Satin. 

“The Seven,” the boy from Oldtown said. 

“Pray, then,” Jon told him. “Pray to your new gods, and I’ll pray to my old ones.” It all turned here.  (ASOS, Jon)

There are a ton more like this, but I don't want to spoil all the fun. But since we are talking about it... YES, I think he weirwoods trapped a few garths. It is already strongly implied that you must use a human sacrifice to "open a tree's eyes," and I am just saying the first ones were done by sacrificing green men / Old Ones. It will be fun to figure out why they did this. Did they did, and the weirwood saved them by taking them into the net? Were they neutralizing the old ones? Did the Old Ones think to get into weirwood net and get trapped in their hubris? 

[LmL]

21 minutes ago, LmL said:

Sure, got that one...

Please explain!!!

 

Oh I get it. A hunting horn. Yes, of course, Duh. 

[Bluetiger]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh I get it. A hunting horn. Yes, of course, Duh. 

I think whole Benjen's ranging party was the Wild Hunt...

He took six men, so in total there were seven - but if they succeeded and returned with Waymar and Will (they know Gared is dead), there'd be 8 members + leader if they returned (Odin had his eight legged horse Sleipnir, hence Santa has 8 reindeers + Rudolf)

But tbh this is very weak evidence, I've never liked the number symbolism, except when there is some obvious hint (dozen, nine trees, three, seven)... Numbers can be added in so many ways... (4= 3+1 but also 2×2 or 2+2 or whatever) and we can make them symbolise whatever fits (or we want them to mean).

So let's leave this for others and look at actual members of wild hunt:

- Ben Stark, the leader, is the Odin figure via his leadership and wolf connection

- Jafer Flowers, bastard of the Reach... also fits

- Other the huntsman, a Herle figure

- four others (possibly Stiv and Wallen, the deserters who capture Bran - Osha seems to know much about Starls, that they're too stupid to plead for mercy etc, later she feels obliged to keep Rickon save - as penance?)

So, in a way Bran was caught by is unlcle's Wild Hunt, turned evil.

And to quote the the legend of Wild Hunt

Spoiler tag for lenght:

 

 

 

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Perhaps not surprisingly since the majority of written accounts come from Christianised times recorded by monks that former powerful pagan gods and goddesses loom large as the leaders of the demonic hosts. One of the most famous and enduring Wild Hunt mythology strands comes from Germanic folklore from Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark, recounting how at  Yuletide, Woden or Wotan in the Anglo Saxon tradition or Odin in Scandinavian lands led the Wild Hunt through the heavens. In pre Christian oral traditions it would seem, however, Odin chased wood elves or, sometimes, beautiful maidens at the Midwinter Solstice around December 21, one of the main times the Hunt was seen.  Some accounts say he dropped gifts at the foot of his sacred pine for the faithful, possibly one of the origins of Christmas presents. Odin’s eight-legged horse Sleipnir was the source for the legend of the eight reindeer of Santa Claus. Santa himself was the old Holly King/Odin and Saint Nicholas rolled into one.

When Odin was demonised (he can still be seen in his devilish persona as Black Peter or Black Rupert in St Nicholas Day processions in Europe) Odin’s huntsmen and women became the ungodly dead, who unable to gain admission to heaven, were released from hell to hunt for—what else but souls?

Seeing the demonic Host became in Christian times an omen of death within the year, an effective way of ensuring good folk were tucked up in their beds on the old pagan festivals. For the first appearance of Odin’s hunt was traditionally recorded as occurring on the Scandinavian pagan festival of Winternights in mid October, a little earlier than Halloween when the fairies were traditionally out riding to their winter quarters and would also capture unsuspecting mortals.

(...)

A Saxon version of the Wild Hunt mythology in England identifies the leader as Herne the Hunter, a form of the ancient Horned God, especially in the area around Maidenhead and also Windsor Great Park in Berkshire, UK, where the Hunt took place in the wild woods rather than in the skies(2).

The Christianised twelfth century Anglo Saxon Chronicles (3) describes the black hunters and hounds, the hunters mounted on black horses and goats, blowing their horns of doom. Not surprisingly the old antlered gods became associated with the Devil . These Christianised accounts therefore were an awful warning to those who continued with the old ways.

(...)

The witch goddess leaders were also strong contenders as hunt leaders and as with the pagan gods may have been a way of demonising the old religion where it was still popular among people in spite of Christianisation. Scandinavia particularly Sweden was not Christianized until the 11^th century and the old pagan ways were still prevalent because of the vast and remote nature of the land until well into the twelfth century.

The Norse and Anglo Saxon Hulda /Mother Holle was also called Berchta, goddess of winter and snow. In the myths of Germany and the Netherlands, as she shakes her bed and the feathers from the eiderdown, snow falls. The Crone/Winter aspect of the Scandinavian Mother Goddess Frigg, Frige in Anglo Saxon, Hulda cared for unborn children and those who died young in her cave and fed them on the first berries of summer. She was considered a patron of magick gave flax to mankind and taught them how to hunt and so was generally revered. However by Christian times she had become leader of her train of ungodly souls and accused of stealing the children in death she once cared for.

(...)

 

 

 

 

So:

- Night's King is a Wild Hunt leader figure as well

- Ramsay  also is wild hunt leader... he even hunts exactly thecsame people as original Hunt would

- Osha might be accused of kidnapping Rickon

- Wild Hunt is originally good in nature (just like Benjen's party or Mormont's ranging) but they turn evil (Ben might have been killed by his own men who deserted him, Mormont was killed in mutiny, the mutineerers stole Craster's house and women). 

(I'll never start writing this cursed story  ... every time I'm about to start, I find sth interesting about Norse mythology, or Odin/Santa, or Holly or Wild Hunt or whatever)

[Bluetiger]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

And yeah, Garth going to Raventree as a prisoner seals it - that's a really good find. He is Job from the Lawnmower Man. 

House Greenfield gives us even more hints about Green Man trapped in weirwoods - their Castle Greenfield was once called The Bower, and supposedly it was built from weirwood.

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Many and more great houses trace their roots back to this golden age of the First Men. Amongst these are the Hawthornes, the Footes, the Brooms, and the Plumms. On Fair Isle, the longships of the Farmans helped defend the western coast against ironborn reavers. The Greenfields raised a vast timber castle called the Bower (now simply Greenfield), built entirely of weirwood. 

And when Sansa wants to the Red Keep's godswood she can't as Ser Preston Greenfield is guarding the gate - desribed in similar way as others... So mayhaps the Others are transformed Green Men as well, trying to take revange on Children and Weirwoods?

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Once alone, she thrust the note in the flames, watching the parchment curl and blacken. Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home. She drifted to her window. Below, she could see a short knight in moon-pale armor and a heavy white cloak pacing the drawbridge. From his height, it could only be Ser Preston Greenfield

Later Ser Preston is killed by angry mob during the riot - his head is smashed with cobblestone. It might be a reference to the moon destruction - after all he wears moon-pale armour... He dies because of Joffrey's stupidity just like many First Men probably died because of the green men actions.

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She glimpsed Ser Preston near the stables with three others of the Kingsguard, white cloaks bright as the moon as they helped Joffrey into his armor. Her breath caught in her throat when she saw the king. Thankfully, he did not see her. He was shouting for his sword and crossbow.

Joff nearly killed him before:

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This one made a brown streak against the stones, while Joffrey's hurried shot almost took Ser Preston in the groin.

 

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Ser Preston's corpse had been overlooked at first; the gold cloaks had been searching for a knight in white armor, and he had been stabbed and hacked so cruelly that he was red-brown from head to heel.

[LmL]

@Blue Tiger, I want to tip my cap to you on the Greenfield finds. I think the idea of "Garth trapped in the weirwood" is outside the purview of this third green zombie episode, as it goes better with the idea of the Old Ones and wight trees. But when I get to that essay - sometime in this weirwood compendium series i will go back to after zombies p.3 - we can collaborate a bit more and flesh out these idea. Really great work my friend.  

I had caught the Preston Greenfield quote when I was looking for parallels between the Others and the KG, but wasn't thinking about green men so much at that time. 

So here's my basic impression of what happened, at least, sort of running with these ideas... the Old Ones, the stag men (whatever they were) came to Westeros as part of the GEotD, or perhaps before they came, who knows. Somehow they became trapped in the weirwoods - we can entertain multiple scenarios about how this happened, but somehow, it did - and this is why we see green men getting stuck in weirwoods (living in a weirwood castle is a great example - Giant from the NW (who is up in the weirwood climbing like a squirrel at Whitetree), later makes a home inside a deal tree, and asks Jon how he likes his castle. Anyway, Winterfell's weir is like a pale giant frozen in time because the origin of the trees getting faces has to do with trapping these garths. But they want out, right? Somehow their shadows take possession of bodies and become the Others. So, the Others come from the trees, and they are also former green men who were trapped in trees. 

The NW and the Others - the brothers and the Others, as it were - must represent a bifurcation of green men. Some were resurrected as fire zombies, some were stuck in trees and escaped to become others. I have been saying in general way that the Others are greenseer mage turned to ice, while the blood of the dragon people are greenseer magic turned to fire - now I think we are closing in on the specifics.

 

[Bluetiger]

15 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Blue Tiger, I want to tip my cap to you on the Greenfield finds. I think the idea of "Garth trapped in the weirwood" is outside the purview of this third green zombie episode, as it goes better with the idea of the Old Ones and wight trees. But when I get to that essay - sometime in this weirwood compendium series i will go back to after zombies p.3 - we can collaborate a bit more and flesh out these idea. Really great work my friend.  

Thanks... Shame I was away from the forums for so long. But I'm glad to be back.

And, I must say that once again I enjoy Westeros.org - so many great discussions going on now... 

Btw, I was wondering if you know Preston Jacobs' theories about Long Night, survival of humans during it etc.

If so, what do you think about them - some of his views are outright ridiculous - for example black oily stone = advenced silicon circuits, but some fit Mythical Astronomy.

 

Edit: There is still much to reasearch on wickermen in ASOIAF (Rattleshirt burned in weirwood cage), horned lords like Mance, Ramsay as Norse God and Hunter etc - I hope I'll have time for all of that in the week before Christmas and during break.

But I must say, with every passing day I admire GRRM's skill and effort even more - especially since I've started dealing with symbolism in my own writing.

Edit 2: I've became even more blue-ish tiger now.

[LmL]

@sweetsunray, @Pain killer Jane, @cgrav, can I get your eyes on the above couple of comments?

 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

can I get your eyes on the above couple of comments?

yup. I have a few. 

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I want to tip my cap to you on the Greenfield finds.

You know green can be a byname for field as in a "village green" so it can be green green or field field. 

more to come. 

[Pain killer Jane]

16 hours ago, LmL said:

Icy beard connection, I like it.   I have noticed their white hoods as well - is george talking about the Klan here? Ha, I doubt it. Remember, those heads are Black Jack Bulwer (descendent of Garth, lunar bull symbolism), Garth Greyfeather (the last of the three garth, the loyal one), and "Hairy Hall," who just sounds like a "Widman of the Woods" type. So those are some potent sacrifices right there, you know? They are on spears of ash, and Yggy was an ash of course, so I would say they are likely meant as trees.

extremely and Hairy Hall leads to Harrenhal and Huzhor Amai wearing the skin of the King of the Hairy Men. And not to go on a random tangent of Black Jack Bulwer the obviousness of the game 21 (where 21 is 3 clusters of 7) but steer's head on House Bulwer's sigil reminds me of Styr, former magnar of the Thenn with his bronze armor and weirwood spear. 

16 hours ago, LmL said:

So what does that tell us? Deal Garth people went int giving the trees faces, right? They are garth-woods after all. Here's the weird part - they are also symbolizing those moon meteors, the bloody tears or eyes of the moon, trailing ash behind them as they weep black blood. And this is what I have been trying to close in on - what is the connection between there wierwoods and the meteors? I get that greenseers were involved in bringing down the moon or steering the comet or something like that, but the meteors themselves caused a change to weirwoodnet, I am am sure of it. They lightning bolt set the tree on fire, after all. The burning tree which transmits the fire of the gods to man was crated when a moon meteor fell. 

The wight trees can also be viewed as living petrified trees which are trees that have been buried by volcanic ash which are transformed from wood to stone trees. I wonder if the meteor with the trail of ash is what made the weirwood trees white and the black blood would have done the same to the trees that became the black shade of the evening trees?

[Pain killer Jane]

16 hours ago, LmL said:

One idea is that the God's Eye is a crater lake, and the Isle of Face sis the splash back island which sometimes forms in the center of such lakes. Watch this awesome video about the God's Eye being a crater lake by youtuber "AnAmericanThinks." If this is the case, we have an island of weirwoods growing overtop a black meteor deposit. I suspect tis might the case, white honestly. The weirwood might be transmuting the poison effects somehow, at cost to themselves. 

Intriguing idea. It reminds me of the force sensitive tree that grew in the garden of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and underground the tree and the temple was another temple which was Sith in origin which rested on top of a force spot. But that is another one of my random thoughts rattling around in my brain. I really liked the video. 

[Pain killer Jane]

16 hours ago, LmL said:

Are the hoods just kind of general "lord of death" / psychopomp symbols?

it would seem so. You know Santa often is depicted with a hood. 

And total side note there was a Roman emperor call Caracalla, which a caracalla is a German hood and the emperor while he was on the frontier lines in Germania would run around in one while fight the Gaulish tribes.  

[Pain killer Jane]

17 hours ago, LmL said:

Snow covered trees = Others, so "the Other shave Ned's bones"? Something like that?

That would be true if it wasn't for sweetsunray's essay Lovely Bones and the High Sparrow's intervention. 

edit: on a side note, I kept wondering about the snow bears running around, and now I remembered that polar bears in the warm climates turn green doing to algae flourishing. So even if they are white in the North, they would be green in the South. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Intriguing idea. It reminds me of the force sensitive tree that grew in the garden of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and underground the tree and the temple was another temple which was Sith in origin which rested on top of a force spot. But that is another one of my random thoughts rattling around in my brain. I really liked the video. 

Yeah great video huh? He had never heard of my theories at all either, so he came to the conclusion without any LmL influence. 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

extremely and Hairy Hall leads to Harrenhal and Huzhor Amai wearing the skin of the King of the Hairy Men. And not to go on a random tangent of Black Jack Bulwer the obviousness of the game 21 (where 21 is 3 clusters of 7) but steer's head on House Bulwer's sigil reminds me of Styr, former magnar of the Thenn with his bronze armor and weirwood spear. 

The wight trees can also be viewed as living petrified trees which are trees that have been buried by volcanic ash which are transformed from wood to stone trees. I wonder if the meteor with the trail of ash is what made the weirwood trees white and the black blood would have done the same to the trees that became the black shade of the evening trees?

Living petrified trees, yes, something like that. That's interesting to connect that to Harren-hal, pretty nice, and also Huzhor's hair man pelt... what specifically is being suggested here? Who is skinhcanging who? AA skinchanged a green man, like body snatched him? There are bodysnatching allusions when Garlan Tyrell wears Renly's armor to become fiery resurrected horned god Renly. Also when Bran skinchanges Hodor in the middle of Lightbringer forging scenes like at the Tower with the lighting and climbing Bloodraven's hill. 

Specifically, I was wondering what you think of this trail of thought of garth (horned people) being trapped in the weirwoods, and their subsequent reemergence as Others. 

It's a mirroring of all the times fire- or dragon-associated people when into the white sword tower and came out white shadow knights in snowy, moon-pale armor. They do have that splendid white weirwood table after all. 

But right in the middle of that white pearl, there is a black chair for the Lord Commander to sit in - and from under that black chair, Jaime pulls Oathkeeper, a black dragon sword, and gives it to Breinne. It's another great example of the black meteor symbol embedded in an ice moon symbol. 

[Pain killer Jane]

17 hours ago, LmL said:

I think one of the major things the Whispers scene does is to tie in the head of Bran to the weirwood mythology, don't you?

So it makes sense that we should consider Bran to be a whispering head on a spike,another type of scarecrow. 

And since Shagwell is the fool version of AA hiding in the tree than could we liken him to Maester Cressen the clever grey bird in between the hellhound and the wyvern.? "clever bird, clever man, clever fool". 

Btw, the woods witch bringing the heads to life always reminded me of the legend of Scaith, the shadow/the great taker of heads, female warlord who trained Cú Chulainn, the Hound of Ulster. 

18 hours ago, LmL said:

And Brienne feeds the weirwood with a corpse too, after watering the ground extensively with blood. I mean, they bury Nimble Dick right under the weir. There is also extensive morningstar symbolism, talk of lucifer and magic swords - all mixed in with the weirwood symbolism. In fact, Shagwell drops out of the tree with a triple morningstar. There's your fool version of AA, throwing out the three heads of the dragon.  He then becomes a gravedigger, like Sandor the burned hellhound. Interesting. Brienne is playing the ice moon here, in a similar setup to the story of Berwyn of the Mirror shield, where Berwyn is the ice moon (like Brienne) and the eye of the dragon Urrax represents the God's eye / sun-moon conjunction. This version of the  monomyth depicts the ice moon as wielding the comet instead of the sun, which is fine, because it's all a matter of interpreting one major event which was seen in the sky, and people can describe it in different ways. So in this arrangement, Shagwell is AA reborn as a fool with three dragon heads. Who summoned him? Was it Brienne who drew him out? Or was it Dick? I need to re-read that scene now.

I love that his name is dick so he is a man descended from a green man and is the physical embodiment of a phallic fertility deity and then murdered by the sinister fool version of AA. Is Nimble Dick the fire moon? And his name Dick is one of the nicknames for Richard or the name we know it as, Rickard (the lion heart).

[Pain killer Jane]

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

That's interesting to connect that to Harren-hal, pretty nice, and also Huzhor's hair man pelt... what specifically is being suggested here? Who is skinhcanging who? AA skinchanged a green man, like body snatched him? There are bodysnatching allusions when Garlan Tyrell wears Renly's armor to become fiery resurrected horned god Renly. Also when Bran skinchanges Hodor in the middle of Lightbringer forging scenes like at the Tower with the lighting and climbing Bloodraven's hill. 

I think a green man skinned changed a dragon person. Renly is a Baratheon whose paternity is both a dragon and maternity is green stag man. And Garlan while being a green crawling/strangling vine person, one of his unfortunate nickname would have been Garlan the gargoyle, a stone dragon. So Garlan skin changing dead Renly is a weed growing inside of Renly and mimics Orelle's consciousness going from Orelle to the Eagle and then into Varamyr, slowing changing Varamyr. 

[LmL]

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So it makes sense that we should consider Bran to be a whispering head on a spike,another type of scarecrow. 

I mean, yeah, you have to figure Martin is going to use the most memorable part of the Bran myth since he named Bran Bran, and Brynden as a variant of Brandon. That's why I say it's one of the main things the Whispers are doing. The thing is, bran's head is buried under the tower of London, which would correspond to the heads underground, such as at the Whispers or in BR's cave. 

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And since Shagwell is the fool version of AA hiding in the tree than could we liken him to Maester Cressen the clever grey bird in between the hellhound and the wyvern.? "clever bird, clever man, clever fool". 

I've been trying to figure out the symbolism of the maesters for forever... grey rats, most often. Not sure what they are symbolizing. 

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Btw, the woods witch bringing the heads to life always reminded me of the legend of Scaith, the shadow/the great taker of heads, female warlord who trained Cú Chulainn, the Hound of Ulster. 

And of cours it's the moon goddess who resurrects the horned god, and the morningstar goddess Ishtar who resurrects Baal, perhaps the oldest corn king. 

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I love that his name is dick so he is a man descended from a green man and is the physical embodiment of a phallic fertility deity and then murdered by the sinister fool version of AA. Is Nimble Dick the fire moon? And his name Dick is one of the nicknames for Richard or the name we know it as, Rickard (the lion heart).

That's really interesting, I like both of those correlation for Dick. Nice work!