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What if Mel sacrifices Shireen to revive Jon, thinking Stannis dead, while he actually lives (and conquers Winterfell)


The Snow Bear

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27 minutes ago, Ser Daegon said:

His rebirth in the fire wouldn't make them aware that he's the son of Rhaegar. They have no idea that Dany hatched dragons in a similar fashion. There's no way for them to correlate that connection. They would likely believe it to be some miracle orchestrated by Mel, however accidental it is, and knowing that Jon is undoubted of Stark blood they'll believe he is some sort of hailed god, the Last Hero come again.

Sorry, I meant reveal to the reader that he is in a fact a Targaryen.  Its not time for that yet at the beginning of WoW.

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Maybe they will pack him in ice to preserve the meat with winter and all those mouths to feed...

Seriously, the s@$! is going to hit the fan at Castle Black. 

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

So, I think Tormund will decide what to do with Jon's body. 

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Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Sorry, I meant reveal to the reader that he is in a fact a Targaryen.  Its not time for that yet at the beginning of WoW.

Hmm... I don't think it would reveal with 100% certainty, but I think it would function as another huge clue that he is Targaryen. Until someone comes right out and shows, or says that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, the readers can't know for a certain fact.

 

Actually, I also don't think that Jon's true parentage will ever revealed but to a small few people at most. I think the significance of Jon's true parentage is important for us readers to know, but the realm will never know that he is, technically, their king. Just a feeling I have.

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Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe they will pack him in ice to preserve the meat with winter and all those mouths to feed...

Seriously, the s@$! is going to hit the fan at Castle Black. 

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

So, I think Tormund will decide what to do with Jon's body. 

Not only this, but in the story we have Jon mention how a Queen's Man guard (?) was slashed in the neck, but it only would have been lethal if it was a little further to the right. I am paraphrasing slightly because I am still searching for the actual quote.

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21 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe they will pack him in ice to preserve the meat with winter and all those mouths to feed...

Seriously, the s@$! is going to hit the fan at Castle Black. 

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

So, I think Tormund will decide what to do with Jon's body. 

Love GRRM, he takes Cesar's killing then turns it into, 'but what if a few days later Cesar stands up and walks out of the senate'.......maybe itll even be as Tormund is readying to kill Brutus aka Bowen Marsh.   But what do you think about Jon being burned on a pyre, and walking out of the fire? I think that would be overkill and very much less-special because Dany already did it.

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14 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Love GRRM, he takes Cesar's killing then turns it into, 'but what if a few days later Cesar stands up and walks out of the senate'.......maybe itll even be as Tormund is readying to kill Brutus aka Bowen Marsh.   But what do you think about Jon being burned on a pyre, and walking out of the fire? I think that would be overkill and very much less-special because Dany already did it.

You already said it, GRRM called that a 1 time event, it's not going to happen to Jon.  Not only that but Dany was not reborn, she just survived.  You don't really have to prove anything as the pyre idea is pretty much baseless.

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

You already said it, GRRM called that a 1 time event, it's not going to happen to Jon.  Not only that but Dany was not reborn, she just survived.  You don't really have to prove anything as the pyre idea is pretty much baseless.

yeah.  this is not the first time I've heard it said though.  I think a lot of people feel this will happen, but the more I think about it, the less likely it seems. It just doesnt fit with anything that happening at the Wall right now except the fact that Mel is there occasionally burning someone alive.

 

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46 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

You already said it, GRRM called that a 1 time event, it's not going to happen to Jon.  Not only that but Dany was not reborn, she just survived.  You don't really have to prove anything as the pyre idea is pretty much baseless.

GRRM said that in context to Dany being "fireproof". Basically meaning that Dany walking into the flames and not being burned was a one time thing for her and the next time she touches fire she will (and does) get burned.

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Quote

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

Daenerys V, Game 46

I think the theory has merit. Maybe we'll get a super freaky deaky chapter like Bran III in Game, with Jon waking in his own pyre...

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2 hours ago, Ser Daegon said:

The significance is that Shireen has Kingsblood through her father's line. Stannis' body(As Melisandre will presume him dead outside of Winterfell) will not be anywhere around. She'll probably believe that she has to act fast if she has any chance of reviving Stannis. Remember, at this point Mel truly believes that Stannis is AAR, so her greatest concern will likely be a resurrection attempt by burning Shireen atop Jon's funeral pyre. She's got two different people, with two different lines of Kingsblood, so she should have two times the power. Or so she'll believe.

Thing is, there is no irony in that, no tragedy, and it's a completely underwhelming end to both Shireen and Stannis' storylines.

Stannis is a man who would do anything to get the Throne and to save the world, there is no fulfilled arc if control is taken out of his hands and his daughter is sacrificed against his will. He's a tragic character, not a classic hero, his hubris and tragic flaw will be his downfall, and not the witch he has no control over. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Daegon said:

GRRM said that in context to Dany being "fireproof". Basically meaning that Dany walking into the flames and not being burned was a one time thing for her and the next time she touches fire she will (and does) get burned.

 

Quote

With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her.

- Daenerys IX, aDwD

Quote

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit.

- Daenerys X, aDwD

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They burn the dead at the Wall, for precaution. The wildlings also burn their dead. Jon burned Ygritte's body.

But there may not be a funeral burning for Jon, there's a hell lot to deal with at the aftermath of his stabbing, so it's 50/50 how this will play out.

Shireen, however... she dreamt that the dragons were coming to eat her, and I think this could be a foreshadowing. It's very possible IMO that she is used as a sacrifice for Jon's life. But I don't think Stannis will live long enough to punish Melisandre, or respond to it at all. It's more about how Jon will feel about that after his resurrection.(Btw: what if fArya arrives on time just to feed Melisandre's flames? How will Jon respond to that, believing that his sister's life paid for his?)

I think that everyone present there will be overwhelmed by the miracle and affraid of Melisandre's powers to do anything (for a few critical days, at least; but for sure -as we saw eith "Mance"'s burning- almost everyone hates her practices, so if they somehow get her it's going to be ugly).

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18 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

 

- Daenerys IX, aDwD

- Daenerys X, aDwD

Yeah, she has never been burned by fire, even after the Pyre.  It's noted several times, including the HOTU. Not saying she's fireproof, but she's never been burned.  When she's on Dragonstone with Drogon she gets 'burns and scrapes' from climbing up and down the rocks to get to his cave, but was never burned by fire.

23 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

They burn the dead at the Wall, for precaution. The wildlings also burn their dead. Jon burned Ygritte's body.

But there may not be a funeral burning for Jon, there's a hell lot to deal with at the aftermath of his stabbing, so it's 50/50 how this will play out.

Shireen, however... she dreamt that the dragons were coming to eat her, and I think this could be a foreshadowing. It's very possible IMO that she is used as a sacrifice for Jon's life. But I don't think Stannis will live long enough to punish Melisandre, or respond to it at all. It's more about how Jon will feel about that after his resurrection.(Btw: what if fArya arrives on time just to feed Melisandre's flames? How will Jon respond to that, believing that his sister's life paid for his?)

I think that everyone present there will be overwhelmed by the miracle and affraid of Melisandre's powers to do anything (for a few critical days, at least; but for sure -as we saw eith "Mance"'s burning- almost everyone hates her practices, so if they somehow get her it's going to be ugly).

Yes Shireen is set for Death for sure, and I do believe it will be at Mel's hands, there's too much foreshadowing to think otherwise.  I'm not sure Arya has it in her head to go to Wall yet does she?

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21 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes Shireen is set for Death for sure, and I do believe it will be at Mel's hands, there's too much foreshadowing to think otherwise.  I'm not sure Arya has it in her head to go to Wall yet does she?

No, not Arya. But poor Jeyne is on her way to the Wall, posing as Arya...

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22 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

He doesnt have the fire magic that Dany does

Just a question and please correct me if I am wrong, wasn't Dany's *fireproof* one time thing? Because from what I recall she had been burned her hands at ADWD. So in the past Jon didn't had the fire proof that Dany had also in the past. I am not saying that Jon is or might be fireproof I am just asking.

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6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Question me and please correct me if I am wrong, wasn't Dany's *fireproof* onetime thing? Because from what I recall she had been burned her hands at ADWD. So in the past Jon didn't had the fire proof that Dany had also in the past. I am not saying that Jon is or might be fireproof I am just asking.

What did she burn her hands on?  There is one sentence in the last chapter of DwD, where she says her burns and scrapes from climbing up rocks to Dragonstone are healing.  But that is proven to be like rug-burns, not like 'she burned her hand on the fire'.  Since she specifically says that she did not get burned from Drogon's fire 'it burned off my hair and nothing else, just as before'.  Jon has shown none of the 'higher tolerance to heat' (SSM) that Dany or Egg have shown.

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11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Question me and please correct me if I am wrong, wasn't Dany's *fireproof* onetime thing? Because from what I recall she had been burned her hands at ADWD. So in the past Jon didn't had the fire proof that Dany had also in the past. I am not saying that Jon is or might be fireproof I am just asking.

 

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

What did she burn her hands on?  There is one sentence in the last chapter of DwD, where she says her burns and scrapes from climbing up rocks to Dragonstone are healing.  But that is proven to be like rug-burns, not like 'she burned her hand on the fire'.  Since she specifically says that she did not get burned from Drogon's fire 'it burned off my hair and nothing else, just as before'.  Jon has shown none of the 'higher tolerance to heat' (SSM) that Dany or Egg have shown.

When she jumps into the fighting pits and pulls the spear out of drogons neck, the spear head was partially melted by his blood.  She burned her hands on the hot metal.

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12 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

What did she burn her hands on?  There is one sentence in the last chapter of DwD, where she says her burns and scrapes from climbing up rocks to Dragonstone are healing.  But that is proven to be like rug-burns, not like 'she burned her hand on the fire'.  Since she specifically says that she did not get burned from Drogon's fire 'it burned off my hair and nothing else, just as before'.  

Quote

"With a hisssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging her whip and shouting, "No, no, no, Get DOWN!"

[...]

Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing.

So she moved away from the fire and her hands were burned.

12 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Jon has shown none of the 'higher tolerance to heat' (SSM) that Dany or Egg have shown.

23 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

. I am not saying that Jon is or might be fireproof I am just asking.

I don't believe that Jon will be healed by fire magic, I believe that he will be healed by the Old Gods' magic.

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23 hours ago, Ser Daegon said:

I definitely subscribe to the theory that Melisandre will believe that the Pink Letter is true. There was enough "secret" information in the letter to likely convince Mel that, indeed, Stannis is dead. But I believe that she won't attempt to revive Jon, she will instead use Jon's funeral pyre as a chance to burn two people with King's Blood, and she will have Shireen(Baratheon/Targaryen Blood) tied to the pyre with Jon(KitN Blood). However, this will accidently result in Jon's re-birth(effectively a parallel to Dany's hatching of her dragons as she burned One Alive and One Dead). Melisandre will see this and realize that she misinterpreted the Flames. Jon, I believe, will be re-born as a hardened leader, and when Stannis demands her death Jon will tell the "King" no, basically overruling him In a similar manner in which he did with Davos in the GoT Show . Only the significance of Jon overruling Stannis will be symbolic for the tone of Jon's march south. In the show he rides south to take back Winterfell and save his sister, but in the book I believe he rides south instead to not enlist but command the Lords to march north with him. He will do so with the same tone he uses to bring Stannis under his command.

This is just what I believe will happen, so Stannis will come back north to Castle Black as a King, but will march south behind Jon as one of Jon's advisors. Jon may end up leaving Melisandre at Castle Black as he rides south to rally the realm.

And he will be laughed out of every castle by these Lords.

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