Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven - The Dreamer. Novella content.

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bran is also a dreamer, wizard, etc right?

 

But I won't go to far down that road (BR isn't the 3eC) because we've done that before, and this is your thread...

 

Instead, I wanted to focus on how you pointed out the old interview seemed to indicate that GRRM always knew that Blood Raven would be related to the Targaryans...

 

You seem to indicate that this is important because of the prophetic dreams of Targs...

 

But Green dreams are prophetic too, we see the ghost of high heart and Jojen both having dreams filled with imagery seemingly predicting future events... Similar to the "dragon dreams" you mentioned where the dragon's represented Targs, be it white walls or dunk's trial.

 

So do you think there is another reason why it is important for Blood Raven to have Targ Blood?

 

(I'm inclined to believe that he's responsible for the return of the Others and his mix of Fire and Ice blood, like Jon, makes him special, but somehow I doubt you will agree haha)

Hey LFDL , you have come, though the hour is late lol.

I knew you would pop by and say hello. 

Honestly though, have you watched the interview at the designated time I said?Ran clearly states that the 3EC would be tied to the Targaryens. 

Please listen again. Then we can discuss it all again if you like but first you must hear Ran correctly. 

Listen from around 1h 22 until the end. 

He says it twice. 

I'll do a separate reply to your other comments.

[Macgregor of the North]

@LiveFirstDieLater

I had also thought on the prophetic dreams that Jojen and the GOHH have. 

After much inner debating though I swayed toward BR having the prophetic Targ version of dreams in his youth.

Jojen is a crannogman, the GOHH is very Cotf like. I think in their case what we hear of in their dreams is the "greensight".

Now because BR is a Greenseer, I do not think it automatically means he dreams the same dreams as them where all people seem symbolic. It might do? I'm not quite sure. 

I think personally though that BR had the type of prophetic vision in his youth where people appeared as they were. Like Daeron and Daemons dreams, Dunk is a real man but the Targaryen people are actual Dragons. 

But in Jojen and the GOHH's dreams, all people seem to be the symbolic type, or most at least. 

Theres small differences with the Targ dreams and Greensight in that respect. 

My lightbulb lit up in my head when Ran said GRRM told him that the 3EC was always gonna be tied to the Targaryens, and I was like well wait a minute! That fits with my old theory a bit. 

And here we are!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hey LFDL , you have come, though the hour is late lol.

I knew you would pop by and say hello. 

Honestly though, have you watched the interview at the designated time I said?Ran clearly states that the 3EC would be tied to the Targaryens. 

Please listen again. Then we can discuss it all again if you like but first you must hear Ran correctly. 

Listen from around 1h 22 until the end. 

He says it twice. 

I'll do a separate reply to your other comments.

Hello again, been away dreaming... Glad I popped back around!

I hear what he says, I'm just not sure how much stock I can put in the second hand account of a 90s interview...

Anyway, my theories aside, I'm interested to know what role you think that Targ connection will play as far as BR and/or the 3eC. 

[Macgregor of the North]

20 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Oh, that would be awesome, I am looking forward to see what else he is going to see via weirdwood network, sadly not many things from the south though, as many weirwoods were cut down by the Andals

Still quite a few though. Many Godswoods have them still. The Isle of faces has loads that could tell a tale or two I think.

But if Bran can simply just "see" an event, whether it be in front of a tree or not, this will fill in crazy gaps for us. 

The tricky part though will be Bran managing to explain any important things to people that he finds out or sees.

In the end we the readers may find things out but characters in story may never find them out. There is a potential hint of sadness there depending on the topic at hand.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LiveFirstDieLater

I had also thought on the prophetic dreams that Jojen and the GOHH have. 

After much inner debating though I swayed toward BR having the prophetic Targ version of dreams in his youth.

Jojen is a crannogman, the GOHH is very Cotf like. I think in their case what we hear of in their dreams is the "greensight".

Now because BR is a Greenseer, I do not think it automatically means he dreams the same dreams as them where all people seem symbolic. It might do? I'm not quite sure. 

I think personally though that BR had the type of prophetic vision in his youth where people appeared as they were. Like Daeron and Daemons dreams, Dunk is a real man but the Targaryen people are actual Dragons. 

But in Jojen and the GOHH's dreams, all people seem to be the symbolic type, or most at least. 

Theres small differences with the Targ dreams and Greensight in that respect. 

My lightbulb lit up in my head when Ran said GRRM told him that the 3EC was always gonna be tied to the Targaryens, and I was like well wait a minute! That fits with my old theory a bit. 

And here we are!

I can't remember, do we have any evidence that Blood Raven had prophetic dreams when he was still south of the Wall?

Also, do you think there is a difference between the Targ dreams and he green dreams?

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Still quite a few though. Many Godswoods have them still. The Isle of faces has loads that could tell a tale or two I think.

But if Bran can simply just "see" an event, whether it be in front of a tree or not, this will fill in crazy gaps for us. 

The tricky part though will be Bran managing to explain any important things to people that he finds out or sees.

In the end we the readers may find things out but characters in story may never find them out. There is a potential hint of sadness there depending on the topic at hand.

 

Yes, that will be a hard thing to do, to make the people believe him. I think he will suffer the same prejudice Bloodraven suffered, a smiliar fate (although he won't be connected to the weirwood).

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hello again, been away dreaming... Glad I popped back around!

I hear what he says, I'm just not sure how much stock I can put in the second hand account of a 90s interview...

Anyway, my theories aside, I'm interested to know what role you think that Targ connection will play as far as BR and/or the 3eC. 

Come on you! It's definitely stated twice GRRM said the 3EC would be tied to the Targaryens, and the second time he says "a Targaryen".

We can drop that though as neither of us is likely to budge like last time lol. 

My theory on the connection is as I stated in my OP. 

I theorise if it's possible that this man GRRM had pencilled in to become the Three Eyed Crow, who he knew would be Targaryen (even though he hadn't created BR yet, 94' era), would have a dream/vision in his youth that would shape his whole destiny. 

And at that point in time, GRRM had already decided that Targaryens in his story would have this "gift" of dreaming of things to come, so therefore his 3EC would always be tied to the Targaryens, when he finally fleshed him out. 

You see where I'm coming from?

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I can't remember, do we have any evidence that Blood Raven had prophetic dreams when he was still south of the Wall?

Also, do you think there is a difference between the Targ dreams and he green dreams?

Nope nothing solid. It is something I am just proposing at the moment with this theory mate. I am watching though to see if it comes to light in the Novellas. Or the main books?.

There is certainly some sort of difference between the two dreams isn't there. 

Jojen and the GOHH see almost everything symbolically don't they, like Wolves, the Sea, man without a face etc etc.

But Daenys the dreamer saw the doom happen clearly, Daeron saw Dunk clearly. Daemon even saw him in a white cloak. They see Dunk clearly as a man.

The GOHH though is slightly different than Jojen. She actually knows things like she is told them, like the PTWP coming from Aerys and Rhaellas line. And that "there's to be a wedding". Things like that. It's strange, but all the prophetic dreams have their differences it seems. 

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't believe it was ever stated he had dreams south of the wall, but it is most likely he had, maybe at first he didn't understand them, just like Bran was puzzled by his wolf dreams, Jojen had to explain that to him. Bloodraven probably though at first they were just dreams.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Yes, it seems quite correct that Bloodraven was looking for a Bran, he even states that to Bran in the cave, that he waited for a long time to see Bran, he probably saw a few Brans who were not the Bran he was waiting for.

Yup, it's really interesting, I wonder if this begun before the cave, like I theorise, or later. 

If he begun knowing of the importance of and seeking to keep tabs on a Bran Stark around the time Lord Willams son that Nan Nurses is around, then my theory gets a thumbs up!

It may turn out he learns the importance of a "Bran" later though. Time shall tell.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Nope nothing solid. It is something I am just proposing at the moment with this theory mate. I am watching though to see if it comes to light in the Novellas. Or the main books?.

There is certainly some sort of difference between the two dreams isn't there. 

Jojen and the GOHH see almost everything symbolically don't they, like Wolves, the Sea, man without a face etc etc.

But Daenys the dreamer saw the doom happen clearly, Daeron saw Dunk clearly. Daemon even saw him in a white cloak. They see Dunk clearly as a man.

The GOHH though is slightly different than Jojen. She actually knows things like she is told them, like the PTWP coming from Aerys and Rhaellas line. And that "there's to be a wedding". Things like that. It's strange, but all the prophetic dreams have their differences it seems. 

I think Jojen sees faces pretty clearly in the Winterfell drowning dream... He knows who will die.

It seems to me that both Targ dreams and Green dreams seem to function much the same way in that they both have metaphors and at times recognizable faces.

But the reason I ask, is that it seems the Green Dreams appear they are sent from someone/something... Is there any reason to believe that the Targ dreams may also be coming from someone/something?

Mel always claims that her visions in the fire are sent to her as well... 

She assumes from her God, though I would bet that there won't be real divine intervention at the end of the day, but of course I can't know that for sure...

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

I don't believe it was ever stated he had dreams south of the wall, but it is most likely he had, maybe at first he didn't understand them, just like Bran was puzzled by his wolf dreams, Jojen had to explain that to him. Bloodraven probably though at first they were just dreams.

In the interview link I left, Linda shares my speculative idea that BR had prophetic dreams in his youth actually. I see that as a sign of hope, but we could both be wrong of course. 

She mentions it when talking of his earlier powers he shows such as glamors and sorcery. 

If im honest, it's the pattern the Novellas are seeming to take us in that has tweaked my interest also.

They (the Novellas) are doing a good job of showing us that there are Targs who have dreams of things to come. 

They can be interpreted wrong but have some truths. 

They involve Dunk. 

Bloodraven is heavily involved in the era of the Novellas, and is a Targaryen. He is also someone who has huge bearing on the story as a whole.

I genuinely do see something like this happening, but at the same time, understand that it just may not also. 

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In the interview link I left, Linda shares my speculative idea that BR had prophetic dreams in his youth actually. I see that as a sign of hope, but we could both be wrong of course. 

She mentions it when talking of his earlier powers he shows such as glamors and sorcery. 

If im honest, it's the pattern the Novellas are seeming to take us in that has tweaked my interest also.

They (the Novellas) are doing a good job of showing us that there are Targs who have dreams of things to come. 

They can be interpreted wrong but have some truths. 

They involve Dunk. 

Bloodraven is heavily involved in the era of the Novellas, and is a Targaryen. He is also someone who has huge bearing on the story as a whole.

I genuinely do see something like this happening, but at the same time, understand that it just may not also. 

Not only a Targaryen, but also has the blood of the First Men, who also have a history with magic. I agree with you, we might be wrong, but he certainly experienced a few things in his youth, things that he couldn't understand, dreams included.

I am also hooked up by the novellas, I hope we can read it through the very end.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think Jojen sees faces pretty clearly in the Winterfell drowning dream... He knows who will die.

It seems to me that both Targ dreams and Green dreams seem to function much the same way in that they both have metaphors and at times recognizable faces.

But the reason I ask, is that it seems the Green Dreams appear they are sent from someone/something... Is there any reason to believe that the Targ dreams may also be coming from someone/something?

Mel always claims that her visions in the fire are sent to her as well... 

She assumes from her God, though I would bet that there won't be real divine intervention at the end of the day, but of course I can't know that for sure...

 

You are correct about Jojen. Well remembered.

I see where your heading with the whole "dreams are sent from someone" thing. The GOHH does indeed say the Old gods won't let her sleep as in it seems her dreams are sent by them. 

Can it be though! That Bran is sending all these people dreams from the future as some powerful "Old God"??. 

I have thought of that too mate believe me  but In the end I thought it seemed to controlling of Bran and not how GRRM would write it. 

Interesting turn this thread has taken. 

The more I think though, I can't see some massive higher power guiding the story by purposely sending dreams, but I can't rule it out completely. 

Meditate on this i will. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

People! I have reached the time I call "family time" lol. 

I'm off for now. Cheers for all posts so far! 

Be back later. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You are correct about Jojen. Well remembered.

I see where your heading with the whole "dreams are sent from someone" thing. The GOHH does indeed say the Old gods won't let her sleep as in it seems her dreams are sent by them. 

Can it be though! That Bran is sending all these people dreams from the future as some powerful "Old God"??. 

I have thought of that too mate believe me  but In the end I thought it seemed to controlling of Bran and not how GRRM would write it. 

Interesting turn this thread has taken. 

The more I think though, I can't see some massive higher power guiding the story by purposely sending dreams, but I can't rule it out completely. 

Meditate on this i will. 

 

Haha funny I wasn't going to suggest Bran behind them all! Some maybe, but I don't think he will be behind it all, like you said it seems like it wouldn't be that satisfying... Also, I don't see a reason to limit the power of sending visions only to him, just cause he can doesn't mean others can't.

In fact we know he House of the Undying provided Dany with visions...

I guess what I was asking is if you thought those Targ Dragon dreams worked in a similar way to these other prophetic dreams... Or if they were different, I go back and forth... In fact the thing that makes me hunk they are different is the Stark Crypt dreams... These seem to me to be a different parallel, dreams based on blood (family) rather than messages from the Weirnet, flames, gods, crows, greenpeoples, etc.

just speculating of course

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha funny I wasn't going to suggest Bran behind them all! Some maybe, but I don't think he will be behind it all, like you said it seems like it wouldn't be that satisfying... Also, I don't see a reason to limit the power of sending visions only to him, just cause he can doesn't mean others can't.

In fact we know he House of the Undying provided Dany with visions...

I guess what I was asking is if you thought those Targ Dragon dreams worked in a similar way to these other prophetic dreams... Or if they were different, I go back and forth... In fact the thing that makes me hunk they are different is the Stark Crypt dreams... These seem to me to be a different parallel, dreams based on blood (family) rather than messages from the Weirnet, flames, gods, crows, greenpeoples, etc.

just speculating of course

This really is my last post for now haha but I'll drop this wee gem as it's on topic with what we're discussing.

I'll be back on tomorrow am uk time. 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V 

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?" 

"We would have no more need of ravens."

[Cagey Bee]

Just going to throw something in here..

What if Bloodraven set up being sent to the Wall? The circumstances around Daemon II and Aenys Blackfyre were different, to be sure. The timing of Aenys' claim was very dangerous, while Daemon II was probably still too close to the rebellion (war fatigue and all). Daemon II also made himself look somewhat foolish while Aenys' attempt was very mature in his approach. That explains why his actions towards them were so different.

But what if that's not why he had Aenys executed? I'm not saying Bloodraven saw everything way ahead of time, but perhaps he had seen enough to know which path to take. I always figured Bloodraven was "called" to the north, in the same way Bran was. I just find it hard to believe that Bloodraven was so scared of Aenys.. who put forth his claim to Bloodraven himself, in a peaceful fashion.

When Bloodraven went north, a lot of people went with him. Most of his Raven's Teeth, Ser Duncan to escort, and.. Aemon. How convenient is that? Aemon wanted no part of the crown, so his decision is understandable.. but the whole event (Aenys' execution, Aemon's claim being dismissed, and Aegon V ascending the throne) happened SO fast, that Bloodraven went with Aemon to the Night's Watch. It never says how much time passed before Aemon went to the wall, but seeing as how he was discussed as a possible claimant, I'm willing to bet it happened pretty quickly.

It's almost like.. Bloodraven had to go? Again, I don't propose that saw his whole future at that point, but he went to the Wall pretty quick. He was the Hand of the King one day and then headed up to the Wall very soon after. That's a pretty quick turn-a-round. Add to that how deceitful he was.. He was not above using tricks to achieve his ends, even dirty tricks (such as using magic on an arrow to kill two boys in front of their father, and then kill their father). He would use disguises, and employ thieves. He had honor, for sure, but it wasn't the same kind of honor as everyone else. Why would he not have had Aenys asassinated quiety? It's the big show of "sacrificing his honor" that makes me think it was all a set up. He basically set up a situation where he got to go to the Wall, and for bonus points, got a bunch of (awesome.. Raven's Teeth AND Aemon) to go with him. Then, he had Ser Duncan as an escort. Why would Aegon send Ser Duncan, if he didn't mean it as a show of respect? Bloodraven sacrificed his "honor", he couldn't run even if he wanted to. Was Aegon V glad that Bloodraven eliminated his biggest threat? Probably, but I think it was more complex than just that. I do think Aegon V had dragon dreams. I also think Bloodraven did too. I'm willing to bet having this in common made them closer, later on. Not saying Aegon knew of the contents of Bloodraven's dreams, but Aegon likely knew him well enough to know when he is being guided.

 

TLDR: Bloodraven piggy backed Aemon's going to the Night's Watch for his own purposes, and that the sacrificing of his honor was all just for show.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Cagey Bee

interesting idea and one I've speculated on a few times myself. It's possible sure, but I haven't pursued it as much as the rest of my theory. Can't rule it out.

The link to my other thread on this topic from page one covers things in some more detail like why Dunk went too etc. All wild speculation of course. 

The part where you say that Bloodraven couldn't even run if he wanted too, now this is where it gets interesting I believe.

Aegor/Bittersteel actually managed to have his escort intercepted on the way to the wall earlier and so escaped that fate.

Bloodraven with all his powers of deception and sorcery and what not could have easily conjured up a plot to get out of that fate but he never.

And this is where we agree bang on the money, BR knew he had to go to the Wall, that was his purpose I believe, the next stage of his destiny, so he went very very willingly. 

You know what I think are absolutely amazing thoughts. Just picture a younger Aemon and Bloodraven at the Wall, and their conversations and what it was like with them there with Ravens teeth as Rangers also. Great images!.

And when BR became Lord Commander I can just picture him making a trip to Winterfell to see how things are going with the current crop of Starks at the time to see how things are going, if they are birthing plenty sons, a Brandon perhaps. 

There actually was a Brandon at the time of BR being LC but he was a bit older by then, Artos' the Implacable's twin boy.

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Is there any reason to believe that the Targ dreams may also be coming from someone/something?

I have been having a think on this. If the Old Gods are possibly sending prophetic green dreams to Jojen and the GOHH, are certain Targaryens such as Daenys the Dreamer, Daeron, Daemon II and possibly Bloodraven also being sent their dreams by some high power?. That is genuinely a good question.

Im not sure if im honest. If they were sent, then did Daenys only recieve warning of the doom while no other Valyrian Dragonlords did because someone/something only wanted House Targaryen to survive? Then look at Daeron and Daemon, Daeron was a weakling drunkard, and Daemon II was a weak pretender. If they were chosen to recieve prophetic dreams then they were poorly chosen i think.

I mentioned the Glass candles as a useful tool for one to send dreams to another, but did somebody really use one to send those dreams to Daeron or Daemon II, im not so sure. Im not so sure if Glass candles were even burning then, or when Bloodraven was young either. I dont doubt that they can be used for that purpose but i dont think somebody sent dreams to Daeron or Daemon II using one.

If i lean one way, id say the one higher power that is sending Targaryen prophetic dreams to people then it may just be GRRM. Maybe its just a flip of the coin like the madness thing if GRRM was to ever try an explanantion, as in some get them, some dont.

Interesting topic for certain.