Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven - The Dreamer. Novella content.

[Macgregor of the North]

@GloubieBoulga First, thanks! I missed this on my research for the thread.

To return to what you said about said about the long white worm like fish that appears in The Sworn Sword as Dunk is in mortal danger, I reread that passage and I must admit I sway toward the idea of Bloodravens presence. 

Here is the quote:

THE SWORN SWORD:

"Dunk shoved away and floated. His chest was on fire. A fish flashed past his face, long and white and slender. What's that? he wondered. What's that? What's that?"

This to me just reminds me of Bloodraven being close by when Dunk was in danger in TMK while BR was glamored as Maynard Plumm.

How does the riddle go also? Bloodraven has a thousand eyes and one. I think BR is keeping tabs on our big Lunk Dunk. Why? Hmmm, did my theory just grow some legs? We will see. 

There are other similarities to BR to take from this. His long white hair, his long Weirwood bow and arrows, his Weirwood tree connection, the white fish in his cave, and this quote below.

THE MYSTERY KNIGHT:

"Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm."

Except he is not gnawing at the heart of the realm. I think he is watching Dunk closely, and acting with the good of the realm in mind.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I have for a while thought that green dreams are essentially the same as the Targaryen dreams, and the Red God’s prophecies as well. By “the same” I mean that they come from the same source. I’ve gone back and forth on what that source is.

[GloubieBoulga]

31 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@GloubieBoulga First, thanks! I missed this on my research for the thread.

To return to what you said about said about the long white worm like fish that appears in The Sworn Sword as Dunk is in mortal danger, I reread that passage and I must admit I sway toward the idea of Bloodravens presence. 

Here is the quote:

THE SWORN SWORD:

"Dunk shoved away and floated. His chest was on fire. A fish flashed past his face, long and white and slender. What's that? he wondered. What's that? What's that?"

This to me just reminds me of Bloodraven being close by when Dunk was in danger in TMK while BR was glamored as Maynard Plumm.

How does the riddle go also? Bloodraven has a thousand eyes and one. I think BR is keeping tabs on our big Lunk Dunk. Why? Hmmm, did my theory just grow some legs? We will see. 

There are other similarities to BR to take from this. His long white hair, his long Weirwood bow and arrows, his Weirwood tree connection, the white fish in his cave, and this quote below.

THE MYSTERY KNIGHT:

"Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm."

Except he is not gnawing at the heart of the realm. I think he is watching Dunk closely, and acting with the good of the realm in mind.

Thanks for reminding the exact text and the exact words ! 

My "Bran's theory" is a little intuitive, and BR stay for me the other possibility. "Slender" is also used to describe the young weirwood with Bran's face who appear in Jon/Ghost's dream in ACOK, while they are looking for Wildlings with Qhorin Halfhand.

 

The text remind me also another interesting detail, which could have its own thread : the fish flashes past the face (and not the legs as I wrote it before!) = there is systematic connection with the mouth and what go out or go in, in the case of characters who die (or supposely die, or very near death-experience) and "resurrect" :

-  Tyrion both times : after the Nera, he dreams and thinks he has no more mouth, as if he was prevent to speak; in the Sorrow, as he is drowning, he drinks all the river ^^. The both have also rationnal and logical explainations, and if there was only for Tyrion, it would be no discussions

- Same "drink" with Davos drowning himself in the Nera

- Beric Dondarrion and the R'hllor's kiss

- Brienne who is dreaming after she was seriously wounded by Biter (AFFC): she cuts her tongue, would want to speak but can only spit blood and tongue (and in the reallity, she never bited her tongue)

- Sandor Clegane, in the quiet Island = that is indeed very symbollic, and for the moment, we have absolutely no idea how he felt with his "resurrection", or what happened (but we can consider the location of his death) 

- Gregor Clegane : he also is mute, but we don't even now if he has all his head

- Patchface, who has no more his own language (the language before he was drowned)

- Thistle cut and spit her tongue just when Varamyr is trying to warg her. 

I don't developpe here all the idea. It was just to show that "flashed spat his face" was probably not innocent.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

21 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Thanks for reminding the exact text and the exact words ! 

My "Bran's theory" is a little intuitive, and BR stay for me the other possibility. "Slender" is also used to describe the young weirwood with Bran's face who appear in Jon/Ghost's dream in ACOK, while they are looking for Wildlings with Qhorin Halfhand.

 

The text remind me also another interesting detail, which could have its own thread : the fish flashes past the face (and not the legs as I wrote it before!) = there is systematic connection with the mouth and what go out or go in, in the case of characters who die (or supposely die, or very near death-experience) and "resurrect" :

-  Tyrion both times : after the Nera, he dreams and thinks he has no more mouth, as if he was prevent to speak; in the Sorrow, as he is drowning, he drinks all the river ^^. The both have also rationnal and logical explainations, and if there was only for Tyrion, it would be no discussions

- Same "drink" with Davos drowning himself in the Nera

- Beric Dondarrion and the R'hllor's kiss

- Brienne who is dreaming after she was seriously wounded by Biter (AFFC): she cuts her tongue, would want to speak but can only spit blood and tongue (and in the reallity, she never bited her tongue)

- Sandor Clegane, in the quiet Island = that is indeed very symbollic, and for the moment, we have absolutely no idea how he felt with his "resurrection", or what happened (but we can consider the location of his death) 

- Gregor Clegane : he also is mute, but we don't even now if he has all his head

- Patchface, who has no more his own language (the language before he was drowned)

- Thistle cut and spit her tongue just when Varamyr is trying to warg her. 

I don't developpe here all the idea. It was just to show that "flashed spat his face" was probably not innocent.

 

Thing is with the Bran idea. And don't get me wrong, I have discussed Bran so much on here and he could be my all time favourite discussion topic in regards to his storyline and his capabilities.

But are you implying that he has actually reached back and slipped the skin of this worm like fish to flash past Dunks face?

I do not think that will be possible for Bran in the story to do as he pleases or at will if you like. It seems too much if I'm honest, and not something GRRM will use a lot. If he does do something like that it will maybe be something by mistake with harsh consequences, (I hate to say this as I'm all books and only watch the show for the sake of it as it's there) but this kind of thing may be similar to the show.

But I just don't feel that we will read instances of Bran Skinchanging beings in the past often and at will. That is quite 'deus ex machina' is it not? 

And if he could do that, and if he was present to 'protect' Dunk, then why let the fight get that far to the point Dunk nearly drowns? Why not just skinchange the Knight he is fighting before he starts drowning Dunk and smashing a boulder off him? You know what I mean? 

The fish I believe now is there to show us a presence for sure, but not Bran, more likely BR in my eyes. That would be a present time Skinchanging instance, one of BR's thousand eyes showing its presence. 

The fact that BR does not skinchange the Knight beating Dunk in the water is that BR likely doesn't have that level of power that Bran does. I'm not sure if it will ever come out that he does. But while Bran can slip Hodors skin in the present, I dont think he will be able to slip the skin of beings, or men, at will and often from "the past". That's a stretch to believe in my eyes.

And my take on the reason it flashes past his face is simply so he actually sees it and feels compelled to think on it and ponder what it was, three times! Drawing our attention to it.

[Slowpoke Martin]

My biggest issue with Bloodraven being the 3EC is that even though GRRM developed the 3EC before creating Bloodraven, he still went ahead and gave Bloodraven vast amounts of raven symbolism contrary to the crow symbolism already introduced.

I know everyone around here hates the show, but I firmly believe that they just simplified Bloodraven to be somewhat a mentor to Bran instead of fleshing him out as the potential villain I expect him to be in the books.

Also, the books have yet to confirm that Bloodraven is the 3EC. When Bran asks him if he is the 3 eyed crow, Bloodraven is surprised to be called that and answers "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." That does not sound like confirmation of being the 3 eyed crow, that sounds like he WAS a member of the Nights Watch but is not anymore. This guy has villain written all over him and it just so happens that the Others become active after Bloodraven abandons the Nights Watch and joins up with the children of the forest.

[GloubieBoulga]

Quote

But are you implying that he has actually reached back and slipped the skin of this worm like fish to flash past Dunks face?

Yes, it is the idea, and I have thought about difficulties you note ^^

 

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

But I just don't feel that we will read instances of Bran Skinchanging beings in the past often and at will. That is quite 'deus ex machina' is it not? 

Yes it is, and in the same time it is not completely, because :

 

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And if he could do that, and if he was present to 'protect' Dunk, then why let the fight get that far to the point Dunk nearly drowns? Why not just skinchange the Knight he is fighting before he starts drowning Dunk and smashing a boulder off him? You know what I mean? 

I think it is very hard to skinchange with a man perfectly living, and strong, I mean with strong mind/spirit (very hard for a strong greenseer/skinchanger, and impossible for a "weak" skinchanger), as we have seen with Hodor and Thistle. And above all, in my hypothesis, Bran don't want Dunk as his puppet, he just want to dream his life. I think also isn't "evil" as Euron can be, for example (as I evoques Euron, my intuition is that he will steal Victarion's body, after he has stolen his wife, his victories, his men). Perhaps what Bran did with Hodor, he will never do it again, with other characters. 

A person near the death or dead could be warged easier than a perfectly living person. 

So when Bran intervenes (if it is the case), he stays always hidden. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

14 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

My biggest issue with Bloodraven being the 3EC is that even though GRRM developed the 3EC before creating Bloodraven, he still went ahead and gave Bloodraven vast amounts of raven symbolism contrary to the crow symbolism already introduced.

I know everyone around here hates the show, but I firmly believe that they just simplified Bloodraven to be somewhat a mentor to Bran instead of fleshing him out as the potential villain I expect him to be in the books.

Also, the books have yet to confirm that Bloodraven is the 3EC. When Bran asks him if he is the 3 eyed crow, Bloodraven is surprised to be called that and answers "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." That does not sound like confirmation of being the 3 eyed crow, that sounds like he WAS a member of the Nights Watch but is not anymore. This guy has villain written all over him and it just so happens that the Others become active after Bloodraven abandons the Nights Watch and joins up with the children of the forest.

Let's not make this "another" thread about this Lol.

Watch the interview with Ran and Linda from around 1hr 22mins onwards and then tell me what you think. 

If you already have watched it, like my old friend on this topic @LiveFirstDieLater, but still debate this, then take it over to his thread as you guys wil have awesome conversations over there mate. 

Id prefer not to derail this thread with mass discussions about that.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, it is the idea, and I have thought about difficulties you note ^^

 

Yes it is, and in the same time it is not completely, because :

 

I think it is very hard to skinchange with a man perfectly living, and strong (very hard for a strong greenseer/skinchanger, and impossible for a "weak" skinchanger), as we have seen with Hodor and Thistle. And above all, in my hypothesis, Bran don't want Dunk as his puppet, he just want to dream his life. I think also isn't "evil" as Euron can be, for example (as I evoques Euron, my intuition is that he will steal Victarion's body, after he has stolen his wife, his victories, his men). Perhaps what Bran did with Hodor, he will never do it again, with other characters. 

A person near the death or dead could be warged easier than a perfectly living person. 

So when Bran intervenes (if it is the case), he stays always hidden. 

 

If Bran just wants to dream Dunks life why did he slip the skin of a white Long worm like fish when Dunk was in mortal danger nearly a hundred years ago and just swim past his face? 

And that is still assuming that he can do that at will with beings in the past.

I'm trying Gloubie but if I'm honest I do find it hard to grasp your idea about Bran and Dunk. I know you said it was Brans 'secret garden' and all that but if there is a Bran - Dunk connection then GRRM would have left something in the text, like even one mention of Bran having thought about Dunk, who is quite a famed Knight really. GRRM can be vague but not that vague, the connections are usually clear enough to see after a reread or two.

I think the connection is there for BR with the imagery etc and how it's heavily implied that BR can slip the skin of animals in the present time. Also the fact that Maynard/Bloodraven was hovering around again in the next Novella when Dunk was in mortal danger. Put two and two together and it begins to paint a picture I believe.

Its clear we are supposed to take note of it, GRRM writes "what's that" Three times. But not because Bran is in the skin of the fish. I just can't see that sorry. 

And you said "warged" aaaahhhhh I hate that word. Lol, never mind me that's just a personal pet hate of mine.

 

 

 

[GloubieBoulga]

Don't be sorry, the hypothesis BR is for the moment stronger than the "Bran's hypothesis", and narratively coherent, I must admit . By the way, I have NO doubt about the fact this is a greenseer's story !

Sorry, I stop to scrive "warg". I'm doing an awfull mix of french and english (in french, we have token the word "warg" to form "warger", which is totally neutral and has lost his original signification) ! 

 

Edit : I forgot a word, and all the signification change !

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

54 minutes ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

it just so happens that the Others become active after Bloodraven abandons the Nights Watch and joins up with the children of the forest.

Is there evidence for this?

[Macgregor of the North]

13 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Don't be sorry, the hypothesis BR is for the moment stronger than the "Bran's hypothesis", and narratively coherent, I must admit . By the way, I have NO doubt about the fact this is a greenseer's story !

Sorry, I stop to scrive "warg". I'm doing an awfull mix of french and english (in french, we have token the word "warg" to form "warger", which is totally neutral and has lost his original signification) ! 

 

Edit : I forgot a word, and all the signification change !

I enjoy your observations Gloubie, pretty deep stuff. And the books are deep for sure. 

With BR and Bran though, I try to stop myself from running away with my ideas that Bran is responsible for nearly everything. That is something I used to do personally a lot. 

But while thinking on the fact that GRRM has BR be an important part of the Novella era, and also the era we read of in the main books, I can't bring myself to play down his involvement anymore in present time actions. 

BR is a massive "present time" instigator. While Bran will show that he can indeed effect things in the past (I'll explain!) I try not to attribute things to Bran that I can find a more sensible explanation for that may involve BR, such as a "present time" manipulation. Like the white fish scenario.

On Bran. In "effect" the past, I do believe that Bran will show that he may well effect things in the past with his actions but it will come to light that he is not changing something that happened already, he always was the cause of it. 

You know like a stable timeloop. He always did cause Ned to turn round at the Heart tree type of thing, that only ever happened once, and he was the cause. 

On the warging thing, that's just me sorry haha, it annoys me more than it should the whole warging concept. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

My biggest issue with Bloodraven being the 3EC is that even though GRRM developed the 3EC before creating Bloodraven, he still went ahead and gave Bloodraven vast amounts of raven symbolism contrary to the crow symbolism already introduced.

I know everyone around here hates the show, but I firmly believe that they just simplified Bloodraven to be somewhat a mentor to Bran instead of fleshing him out as the potential villain I expect him to be in the books.

Also, the books have yet to confirm that Bloodraven is the 3EC. When Bran asks him if he is the 3 eyed crow, Bloodraven is surprised to be called that and answers "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." That does not sound like confirmation of being the 3 eyed crow, that sounds like he WAS a member of the Nights Watch but is not anymore. This guy has villain written all over him and it just so happens that the Others become active after Bloodraven abandons the Nights Watch and joins up with the children of the forest.

Couldn't agree more, in case you or others are interested I tried to explain:

But I won't harp on this thread, we'll let them keep on ignoring the difference between crows and ravens...

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But I won't harp on this thread

Damn straight you wont lol, take your new believer over to your thread and completely and utterly discard the obvious truth that Ran stated twice in his interview that 1. the 3EC is tied to the Tragaryens, and then 2. he is a Targaryen.

You baffle me with your inability to take this because it goes against your own massive theory. You really must accept this mate, but if you wont, then yes, you will not be harping on about it on here haha..

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Ran

I have never saw fit to bother you on here as I know you are a very busy man but is there any chance you could take the time to say a word on this topic? (See last couple posts).

Sorry again truly, for any hassle. As you can see though we are in a situation here which may benefit from a word or two from yourself as my own defence relies heavily on your own views from an interview. 

[Ran]

Not too much to add beyond saying that I stand by what GRRM said in the interview, namely that he had known from back when writing AGoT that the three-eyed crow was connected in some fashion to the Targaryens, but he didn't start sorting that out until he hit upon Bloodraven and the other Great Bastards.

[Macgregor of the North]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Not too much to add beyond saying that I stand by what GRRM said in the interview, namely that he had known from back when writing AGoT that the three-eyed crow was connected in some fashion to the Targaryens, but he didn't start sorting that out until he hit upon Bloodraven and the other Great Bastards.

Thanks for taking the time to post Ran. Appreciate that.

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Ran since we have you (haha I'm being a chancer here now) any thoughts on why the 3EC had to be connected/tied to or actually be a Targaryen? 

Anything to do with the Targaryen gift of dreaming of things to come that some are blessed with??

[GloubieBoulga]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Ran since we have you (haha I'm being a chancer here now) any thoughts on why the 3EC had to be connected/tied to or actually be a Targaryen? 

Anything to do with the Targaryen gift of dreaming of things to come that some are blessed with??

Oh yes yes ! I just have had an idea about that. In fact, it's not properly about to be a Targaryen, but directly linked to BR's acting. 

In other threads, I have evoked that I believed to an "original crime" - a kin(g)slaying - committed by a "raven/crow character", who had hidden this crime by accusing another : the saga is full of kin(g)slaying and false guilty, except Jaime who assumed his acts... and BR who was also hated for Daemon and his son's death, his brother and nephews. A death really anti-chevalry. But BR never lied about that, and never looked for hide what he did. 

That's could be why he was the one who must teach the last Stark greenseer : perhaps help to discover and assuming an old kin(g)slaying. A truly raven who teach his cousin the liar crow ^^

 

It is just an idea, but @Macgregor of the North, I'm not sure it can be discussed in your thread. 

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Oh yes yes ! I just have had an idea about that. In fact, it's not properly about to be a Targaryen, but directly linked to BR's acting. 

In other threads, I have evoked that I believed to an "original crime" - a kin(g)slaying - committed by a "raven/crow character", who had hidden this crime by accusing another : the saga is full of kin(g)slaying and false guilty, except Jaime who assumed his acts... and BR who was also hated for Daemon and his son's death, his brother and nephews. A death really anti-chevalry. But BR never lied about that, and never looked for hide what he did. 

That's could be why he was the one who must teach the last Stark greenseer : perhaps help to discover and assuming an old kin(g)slaying. A truly raven who teach his cousin the liar crow ^^

 

It is just an idea, but @Macgregor of the North, I'm not sure it can be discussed in your thread. 

Gloubie fire away and discuss Bloodraven on my thread if ya like, I'm not on much at the weekends but I'll pop by briefly, mainly to see if Ran has answered 

[Ran]

My guess is that George just liked the symmetry of it. You know, ice and fire and all that.