Victarion is underrated

[John Doe]

Almost everytime I read anything about Victarion on these forums, people complain about his stupidity, with many of them quoting GRRM's "dumb as a stump" line. However, I do think this is too harsh in comparison to what we actually see from him in the books. 

 

1. He's a capable naval commander and fighter, and I'm pretty sure the former does require some intelligence. He's clearly respected among his men, with most of them being seasoned sea travellers themselves. I don't think you can manage to get a hundred ships mostly safely from the Iron Islands to Slaver's Bay being "as dumb as a stump", it's a quite impressive journey. And while some may say that's all because his men are capable, remember that they do respect him as their leader, and we do see Victarion taking action himself.

2. Let's look at what he actually thinks of Euron. People complain all the time about him being Euron's toy, and not thinking enough for himself. But that criticism isn't completely  true. When Euron gave his newly conquered islands away, Victarion immediately realizde that he did that to steal his men. He constantly reminds himself that Euron's gifts are poisoned as well, and it almost prevented him from taking the dusky woman with him. Granted, he did in the end take her, which was a dumb move, but he only did it out of pity.

Another thing people need to realize is that Victarion was raised as a third son. In Westeros, that generally means that you have to either make a career on your own (for example as an accomplished fighter, in the Night's Watch, or as a  Maester) or at the side of your lord. We see this dynamic a lot in the series, for example with Tywin's younger brothers, the two younger Royce siblings, Loras Tyrell, or Ned Stark (who was not raised as a ruler originally). He was raised to serve his brother and his son after him, he even himself reflects on that, so it's not surprising he doesn't act quite as politically savy and with as much self-initiative as he should. 

Lastly, show me one character who isn't outwitted by Euron at this point. 

3. Yes, he was defeated by Stannis at the Battle of Great Wyk. However, Stannis is one of the better commanders of the series (I won't say best because I don't wanna start a discussion about him in this thread, but I do think the consensus it that he is quite capable). Still, he does not seem to be a dumb commander imo, as we see Victarion using smart tactics elsewhere in the books. I won't quote anything here, as most of it is from preview chapters, but he did lead the attack on Lannisport, for example.

4. Another complaint is his appearent ignorance when he thought the Dothraki Sea to be an actual sea. But lack of education does not equal lack of intelligence. Ironborn culture and education does not seem to value non-martial skills too highly, and it's not like the Dothraki are relevant for the Iron Islanders in any way. There's a continent and two seas between them and they don't even live in a coastal region. Sure, I find the line funny too, but its importance gets completely overblown. 

5. Some of his appearent stupidity seems to come from his own, ironborn sense of honour, or, better, he is deeply influenced by ironborn culture and the "Old Way", just as his brothers. He killed his wife because of that, and he doesn't act against Euron because he is his older brother and king, elected by the sacred kingsmoot (mostly also because he has a lot of support). I wouldn't call him stupid because of that just as I wouldn't call Ned Stark stupid because he didn't play the game like he should have. 

 

I hope I'm not alone in thinking that Martin exaggerated when he called Victarion "dumb as a stump". He is obviously not the smartest character, but more than a bit underrated imo. There are of course stilll some dumb moments, like when he trusts the dusky woman, but most of his appearent lack of intelligence I think can be explained by reasons other than stupidity, and he does have his smart moments as well. I too like his character mostly because of his "Vic smash" attitude, but that does not mean he is all brawn and no brains.

[Jon Fossoway]

Vic is certainly an intelligent dude. In his POV you can access his inner doubts, any normal human being has them, but he manages to put them aside and lead. I haven't read the GRRM full interview about him, but I think he means that other characters see him as dumb or thick. I remember a chapter I read recently, concerning his arrival in Essos after the travel through the Stepstones. Some captain approach him and states that half the fleet arrived and poses some doubts about the mission. Victarion is completely aware of this and how bad it's for the mission, but instead of showing any shadow of doubt he smacks the dude in the face, threatens him to keep his mouth shut, and commands that the fleet to move on. This shows he's an able naval commander, a guy who doesn't let his doubts slip into his men and keep a strong image that can keep things together. This repeats itself a lot.

I'm inclined to think that Victarion keeps a steady bull-like determination until a clear chance arises. So far, has any real chance of getting his revenge on Euron come up? I doubt it. We're yet to see when he meets with Dany.

[Lord Vance II]

I agree, but I think it's more that he is underappreciated. 

He's definitely smarter than people give him credit for, and I think his potential for making noise in the story is underrated. He's got Dragonbinder, he's got the worlds fiercest marines under his command and he has a goal to go for. I think he will fall short of marrying Dany, but will earn her trust and use her to defeat Euron. Really, I don't care how he does it, but someone has to stop Euron, and it would just be the most poetic for Vic to take him down. 

And like someone already said, if you have to have one big loss against you, being beat by Stannis (the greatest commander in Westeros, I ain't afraid to say it) isn't too bad. 

Too many want to write him off as a big dumb brute, and as the OP has shown, he's clearly much more. 

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

We must understand that the Ironborn has different views of the world, they are even different from the first men from the North, they have their own culture and valors, also the sense of honor, as you have mentioned.

 

Victarion does HAVE to respect his brother, because as you said, Euron is the king and his older brother, something that the First Men culture in general seem to respect, different from the Andal culture that seems to be a bit more ruthless and ambitious.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Except that Martin himself described Victarrion as "Dumb as a stump"

[aryagonnakill#2]

I believe he shows some good smarts in the sample chapter.

Spoiler

The way he tricks the 3 guys into blowing the horn by telling them that the guy who died at the Kingsmoot blew it 3 times and they would each blow it once is pretty clever. 

 

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Ah, and it is imporant to remember that the ones with the blood of the Andal (most of them, not all of them) seem to think they are the best civilization in Westeros, they are really self-centered and the First Men and Rhoynar always suffered some prejudice, as they are considered a bit savages, especially the Northners and the Ironborn.

[DigUpHerBones]

the way it is setting up, people will be all over his d*ck after his first chapter in Winds.

well, the chapter where he anchors and crashes the shore.

gut feeling this scene will be by far the bloodiest moment of the series, and i can see Vic cutting his way through literally everyone until he reaches Dany.

his showdown with Selmy will be legendary.

 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Vicatrion is a dumb brute who knows only warfare.

[theblackdragonI]

Kind of off topic but he's also the only sane son of Quellon. Balon was straight up a prideful idiot, Euron's insane and Aerons a fanatic. I always got the vibe off Victarion that he was like an honourable sort of Viking. He's not particularly cruel, he just values strength above all else. He's very loyal also, despite not liking his brother. He'd definitely fit in well in the North, he's similar enough to the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark hard men and loyal. 

I definitely agree that he's smarter than let on. It seems hes learned from his defeat at Fair Isle (no shame in losing ton Stannis) and he recognises the futility in trying to hold the North. I don't think he'll have the biggest impact on the story, hopefully he'll kill Euron but I don't think GRRM would give the readers that satisfaction if he called him "dumb as a stump"..

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

6 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Kind of off topic but he's also the only sane son of Quellon. Balon was straight up a prideful idiot, Euron's insane and Aerons a fanatic. I always got the vibe off Victarion that he was like an honourable sort of Viking. He's not particularly cruel, he just values strength above all else. He's very loyal also, despite not liking his brother. He'd definitely fit in well in the North, he's similar enough to the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark hard men and loyal. 

I definitely agree that he's smarter than let on. It seems hes learned from his defeat at Fair Isle (no shame in losing ton Stannis) and he recognises the futility in trying to hold the North. I don't think he'll have the biggest impact on the story, hopefully he'll kill Euron but I don't think GRRM would give the readers that satisfaction if he called him "dumb as a stump"..

I think people misunderstood what Martin said, as it was mentioned in the topic before, I think Martin said other characters see him as dumb.

[The Hammer of Justice]

you forgot the most important thing... HE HAS A FREAKING COOL BURNED SUPER ARM!! He is hellboy xD

And although he is a fervorous worshipper of the Drowned God, he is open-minded enough to also respect and worship the Lord of Light

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

OK, on the next reread I'll brace myself for the overwhelming impression of surprisingly smart Victarion. A brand new impression, naturally.

I don't anticipate that it come, but I'll be looking out with vigilance.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Except that Martin himself described Victarrion as "Dumb as a stump"

Except that has already been adressed multiple times. 

9 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

OK, on the next reread I'll brace myself for the overwhelming impression of surprisingly smart Victarion. A brand new impression, naturally.

I don't anticipate that it come, but I'll be looking out with vigilance.

Yes, because there are only "dumb as a stump" and "surprisingly smart". 

 

Nice contribution there.

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I believe he shows some good smarts in the sample chapter.

  Reveal hidden contents

The way he tricks the 3 guys into blowing the horn by telling them that the guy who died at the Kingsmoot blew it 3 times and they would each blow it once is pretty clever. 

 

Agreed. There's also these moments:

Spoiler

Quote

"The ships are landing men," screamed the Yunkish lordling. "They've blocked the mouth of the Skahazadhan with a fireship, and every moment you stand here talking another hundred swords come splashing through the shallows.

Quote

"The slavers may shiver when they spy your sails rising from the sea," he told him. "but once they see you plain they will laugh at their fears. Traders and fishers, that's all you are. Any man can see that. Let them get close as they like, but keep your men hidden belowdecks until you are ready. Then close, and board them. Free the slaves and feed the slavers to the sea, but take the ships. We will have need of every hull to carry us back home."

 

A mere dumb brute wouldn't be so cunning.

[rotting sea cow]

Well, I kind of agree that Victarion is underrated. Compared to his brothers is probably the most sane, but he's not an example for anyone.

Victarion is dumb (and brutal), no questions there. However, I consider Jon not to be so far ahead in perspicacity.

IMHO, it is intelligence that is overrated, there are more important things.

I had always the hope the Victarion is made for more important things and will command Dany's fleet at some point and help to bring down Euron. It is very unlikely that I will get my wish.

[John Doe]

2 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Victarion is dumb (and brutal), no questions there. However, I consider Jon not to be so far ahead in perspicacity.

I would even say that the average Stark is not far ahead of Victarion.

[Quellon]

6 hours ago, John Doe said:

Almost everytime I read anything about Victarion on these forums, people complain about his stupidity, with many of them quoting GRRM's "dumb as a stump" line. However, I do think this is too harsh in comparison to what we actually see from him in the books. 

 

1. He's a capable naval commander and fighter, and I'm pretty sure the former does require some intelligence. He's clearly respected among his men, with most of them being seasoned sea travellers themselves. I don't think you can manage to get a hundred ships mostly safely from the Iron Islands to Slaver's Bay being "as dumb as a stump", it's a quite impressive journey. And while some may say that's all because his men are capable, remember that they do respect him as their leader, and we do see Victarion taking action himself.

2. Let's look at what he actually thinks of Euron. People complain all the time about him being Euron's toy, and not thinking enough for himself. But that criticism isn't completely  true. When Euron gave his newly conquered islands away, Victarion immediately realizde that he did that to steal his men. He constantly reminds himself that Euron's gifts are poisoned as well, and it almost prevented him from taking the dusky woman with him. Granted, he did in the end take her, which was a dumb move, but he only did it out of pity.

Another thing people need to realize is that Victarion was raised as a third son. In Westeros, that generally means that you have to either make a career on your own (for example as an accomplished fighter, in the Night's Watch, or as a  Maester) or at the side of your lord. We see this dynamic a lot in the series, for example with Tywin's younger brothers, the two younger Royce siblings, Loras Tyrell, or Ned Stark (who was not raised as a ruler originally). He was raised to serve his brother and his son after him, he even himself reflects on that, so it's not surprising he doesn't act quite as politically savy and with as much self-initiative as he should. 

Lastly, show me one character who isn't outwitted by Euron at this point. 

3. Yes, he was defeated by Stannis at the Battle of Great Wyk. However, Stannis is one of the better commanders of the series (I won't say best because I don't wanna start a discussion about him in this thread, but I do think the consensus it that he is quite capable). Still, he does not seem to be a dumb commander imo, as we see Victarion using smart tactics elsewhere in the books. I won't quote anything here, as most of it is from preview chapters, but he did lead the attack on Lannisport, for example.

4. Another complaint is his appearent ignorance when he thought the Dothraki Sea to be an actual sea. But lack of education does not equal lack of intelligence. Ironborn culture and education does not seem to value non-martial skills too highly, and it's not like the Dothraki are relevant for the Iron Islanders in any way. There's a continent and two seas between them and they don't even live in a coastal region. Sure, I find the line funny too, but its importance gets completely overblown. 

5. Some of his appearent stupidity seems to come from his own, ironborn sense of honour, or, better, he is deeply influenced by ironborn culture and the "Old Way", just as his brothers. He killed his wife because of that, and he doesn't act against Euron because he is his older brother and king, elected by the sacred kingsmoot (mostly also because he has a lot of support). I wouldn't call him stupid because of that just as I wouldn't call Ned Stark stupid because he didn't play the game like he should have. 

 

I hope I'm not alone in thinking that Martin exaggerated when he called Victarion "dumb as a stump". He is obviously not the smartest character, but more than a bit underrated imo. There are of course stilll some dumb moments, like when he trusts the dusky woman, but most of his appearent lack of intelligence I think can be explained by reasons other than stupidity, and he does have his smart moments as well. I too like his character mostly because of his "Vic smash" attitude, but that does not mean he is all brawn and no brains.

I agree 100%! I may be biased because Vic is one of my 5 favorite characters but still, I never got why he was being considered so stupid, since nothing he says or does has been stupid so far. He is a respected commander and capable as you said and though Euron stole his men away, it was bound to happen anyway-Euron IS the king or ruler of the Iron Islands. I think Martin simply doesn't like Vic (damn you George!) since he obviously is more inclined towards guys who use their wit instead of their strength, like Tyrion. I think Victarion is more naive than really stupid or lacking intelligence, in that he believes people too much and thinks better of them than he should sometimes. He definitely can be brutal but hey-these are the IRONBORN we are talking about. You don't get around by playing nice in this realm. Victarion was farsighted enough to see that Moqorro could be of use. He respects his fallen foes who fought bravely, which is something neither Balon (I believe) and especially not Euron do or did. He deserves more respect than he has gotten from both Martin and the average reader.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Yes, because there are only "dumb as a stump" and "surprisingly smart". 

Do you think so? I would disagree with that dichotomy, as a general rule. However, if I've been indeed underrating Victarion's intellectual capabilities, then he simply has to, on reexamination, show up to be "surprisingly smart". That's pretty much axiomatic.

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

Nice contribution there.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

[Trigger Warning]

Not going to argue about his intelligence in general but it's pretty amusing that everyone always shits on him about that Dothraki Sea comment. 

He doesn't know his Essosi geography, what a fuckin' moron.