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Victarion is underrated


John Doe

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52 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Do you think so? I would disagree with that dichotomy, as a general rule. However, if I've been indeed underrating Victarion's intellectual capabilities, then he simply has to, on reexamination, show up to be "surprisingly smart". That's pretty much axiomatic.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

It was clear that you made no effort to go throught the arguments or re evaluate what you had already read, so I treated your comment as a troll comment. 

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Thank you, I appreciate that.

No problem, me too.

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the people who are saying that he came up with the great plan to burn the lannister fleet at anchor.... that was Euron.

 

Victarion is just a grunt follower, he is just a slower version of balon

 

Vic is an idiot he thinks with the horn he is going to steal the dragon and dany for himself. Thinking he is clever, meanwhile Euron is 20 steps ahead knowing he will try and do exactly that

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11 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

the people who are saying that he came up with the great plan to burn the lannister fleet at anchor.... that was Euron.

 

Victarion is just a grunt follower, he is just a slower version of balon

 

Vic is an idiot he thinks with the horn he is going to steal the dragon and dany for himself. Thinking he is clever, meanwhile Euron is 20 steps ahead knowing he will try and do exactly that

If Victarion was an idiot, he would not be a great commander and captain. He is not the cleverest of the people, but he is not dumb.

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- Dunk is "dumb" in martin's world, and look at his kg records (not even mentioning pre-kg ones)

- losing to stannis with no luck factor is as normal as being cold at the wall

- a warrior his size could defeat even agot's jaime just by grabing him or striking him with an axe

- like you said, only one more in many outsmarted by euron, and more "smart" folks will make the list

In a recent q&a he responded to the question "did bob knew the lannister kids were not his?" by saying bob wasn't an intelectual giant, but who was? only jon and stannis... not even tywin or maesters... not being an intellectual giant does not equal dumb because bob has a military IQ i'm yet to see surpassed... so imo "martin smarts" are littlefinger smarts you know? maquiavelian stuff

So yeah, vic is supreme crap as a person but in marshal terms he is underrated sometimes

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11 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

the people who are saying that he came up with the great plan to burn the lannister fleet at anchor.... that was Euron.

 

Victarion is just a grunt follower, he is just a slower version of balon

 

Vic is an idiot he thinks with the horn he is going to steal the dragon and dany for himself. Thinking he is clever, meanwhile Euron is 20 steps ahead knowing he will try and do exactly that

You're talking about Euron, though. He's one of the most evil and clever guys of the books. 

Vic has no way of knowing for sure how the horn really work. We're talking about magical stuff that was kinda asleep for a thousand years of more.

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Isn´t it more that Victarion is...limited. That he has a hard time thinking outside the box? That he has very little creativity and skills in problem solving? That he simply has a hard time understanding things not taught to him and can´t work outside his skillset at all? He is not Forest Gump, but he is clearly at the lower half intelligence-wise.

Because not only do the man think that R'hllor and the Drowned god would like his sacrifice (which most likely is blasphemy), he has a completely own version of "fighting slavery" and, as the biggest piece of evidence fail to understand Ashas offer and the realities behind it. That she want to pool resources and are willing to make him No 1 in return of becoming No 2 to stop Euron from winning. Not only do he say no to this offer, but has no strategy on how to win votes at all apart from showing up, beeing a badass and Balons brother (which is not enough, despite many tv-series saying it is).

He wanted to become king and stop Euron. He would have, if he had been able to cut a deal with Asha (and you even wonder when you read the short dialogue between them - did he really understood what she was saying and offering?) his arse would be on the seastone chair. Yet he didn´t and now Euron is king and he doesn´t seem to realize that it could have been prevented.

This is not the action of a smart man. It is not even the actions of a man of average intelligence. This is the low-grade intelligence at work, refusing to see anything beyond a very limited viewpoint and unable to deal with a situation on the fly. He is only good at doing things everyone else is doing and is seen as the norm and when he get frustrated, he get violent (just look at his reaction when he is mocked for the Dothraki sea). Hell, if he was going to start calling things stupid or being judgmental without feeling any need to fact check or consider opposing POV's he would been a perfect Alt-right member.

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16 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Isn´t it more that Victarion is...limited. That he has a hard time thinking outside the box? That he has very little creativity and skills in problem solving? That he simply has a hard time understanding things not taught to him and can´t work outside his skillset at all? He is not Forest Gump, but he is clearly at the lower half intelligence-wise.

Because not only do the man think that R'hllor and the Drowned god would like his sacrifice (which most likely is blasphemy), he has a completely own version of "fighting slavery" and, as the biggest piece of evidence fail to understand Ashas offer and the realities behind it. That she want to pool resources and are willing to make him No 1 in return of becoming No 2 to stop Euron from winning. Not only do he say no to this offer, but has no strategy on how to win votes at all apart from showing up, beeing a badass and Balons brother (which is not enough, despite many tv-series saying it is).

He wanted to become king and stop Euron. He would have, if he had been able to cut a deal with Asha (and you even wonder when you read the short dialogue between them - did he really understood what she was saying and offering?) his arse would be on the seastone chair. Yet he didn´t and now Euron is king and he doesn´t seem to realize that it could have been prevented.

This is not the action of a smart man. It is not even the actions of a man of average intelligence. This is the low-grade intelligence at work, refusing to see anything beyond a very limited viewpoint and unable to deal with a situation on the fly. He is only good at doing things everyone else is doing and is seen as the norm and when he get frustrated, he get violent (just look at his reaction when he is mocked for the Dothraki sea). Hell, if he was going to start calling things stupid or being judgmental without feeling any need to fact check or consider opposing POV's he would been a perfect Alt-right member.

Vic is a traditionalist. He is a religious man and follows the Old Way. That is why he can't think outside the box. It's like with the real world-traditionalists and conservatives that have a hard time doing that too. They are just fixed on following the path that is already been cleared. Euron is not a traditionalist and therefore thinks new and creative, exploring new possibilities and paths. Victarion just wasn't made for that, he just isn't the type. And he is a man of action, rather than man of thoughts and words. But he still isn't stupid. Just limited, as you say.

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44 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

If Victarion was an idiot, he would not be a great commander and captain. He is not the cleverest of the people, but he is not dumb.

 

what has he ever done where he is some great commander? storming castles while the real men are out at war, fighting woman and children, winning maybe just a couple battles

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46 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Vic is a traditionalist. He is a religious man and follows the Old Way. That is why he can't think outside the box. It's like with the real world-traditionalists and conservatives that have a hard time doing that too. They are just fixed on following the path that is already been cleared. Euron is not a traditionalist and therefore thinks new and creative, exploring new possibilities and paths. Victarion just wasn't made for that, he just isn't the type. And he is a man of action, rather than man of thoughts and words. But he still isn't stupid. Just limited, as you say.

Problem is that being limited is a sign of low intelligence. And how smart or stupid someone is tends to be compared with the population average.

There is indeed (controversial) studies that shows that Right-wingers are less intelligent than Left-wingers. That people with low intelligence simply gravitate towards right-wing views because they make them feel safe. And Victarion does seem to be a case of this.

But he is no Forest Gump.

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1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Because not only do the man think that R'hllor and the Drowned god would like his sacrifice (which most likely is blasphemy), he has a completely own version of "fighting slavery" and, as the biggest piece of evidence fail to understand Ashas offer and the realities behind it. That she want to pool resources and are willing to make him No 1 in return of becoming No 2 to stop Euron from winning. Not only do he say no to this offer, but has no strategy on how to win votes at all apart from showing up, beeing a badass and Balons brother (which is not enough, despite many tv-series saying it is).

Making a sacrifice to R'hollor and one do the Drowned God isn't stupid at all, it's just a different view on religion. Historically, it has been the prevalent one in polytheistic societies. The romans even had a tradition where they would make sacrificies to the gods of their enemies and build temples for them to gain their favor. If you accept that sacrifices give you power, it is not so strange to assume that sacrifices to two gods would give you the favor of two gods. 

What own version of fighting slavery?

The thing with Asha.. well, I'm not sure if the Ironborn would accept a hand of the king anyway, it's a greenlandish  custom. They would probably see it as weakness on Vic's part. 

His strategy on how to win votes wasn't too bad. He knows he isn't a talker, and many Ironborn don't like talkers anyway. It's a very laconic point of view, but that's probably not so uncommon for a warrior culture like the Ironborn. He would have lost to Euron and his horn no matter what he had said at the kingsmoot. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Problem is that being limited is a sign of low intelligence. And how smart or stupid someone is tends to be compared with the population average.

There is indeed (controversial) studies that shows that Right-wingers are less intelligent than Left-wingers. That people with low intelligence simply gravitate towards right-wing views because they make them feel safe. And Victarion does seem to be a case of this.

But he is no Forest Gump.

Ofc not, then he'd never be put in charge of the Iron Fleet in the first place. ;) Obviously, Balon was not a dumb man and his judgement was that Vic was capable of leading their main and only military force, ergo he didn't think his brother was dumb. That he lacks the political cleverness and the ability to see through Euron's games and plots, that may be true and most likely is. But again, that is because he doesn't wanna play that game and is a straightforward, honorable guy who trusts his strong arm and axe and the men that fight under him. That's what he bases his life on, that's his creed. Euron is a deceitful schemer whose only goal is to conquer more land and get more subjects he can tyrannize. He is also connected with the spiritual and magical world, that's his only "good" side if you wanna call it, his power card. Victarion is like your typical "workingman" guy who enjoys doing his job and is happiest when he's left out of such schemes.

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12 hours ago, John Doe said:

Making a sacrifice to R'hollor and one do the Drowned God isn't stupid at all, it's just a different view on religion. Historically, it has been the prevalent one in polytheistic societies. The romans even had a tradition where they would make sacrificies to the gods of their enemies and build temples for them to gain their favor. If you accept that sacrifices give you power, it is not so strange to assume that sacrifices to two gods would give you the favor of two gods. 

What own version of fighting slavery?

The thing with Asha.. well, I'm not sure if the Ironborn would accept a hand of the king anyway, it's a greenlandish  custom. They would probably see it as weakness on Vic's part. 

His strategy on how to win votes wasn't too bad. He knows he isn't a talker, and many Ironborn don't like talkers anyway. It's a very laconic point of view, but that's probably not so uncommon for a warrior culture like the Ironborn. He would have lost to Euron and his horn no matter what he had said at the kingsmoot.

Yet, that approach to the gods doesn´t seem to be socially accepted on Iron Islands. It seems like they insist on only honouring the Drowned god and especially loathes the seven. There is no reason to believe that Damphair would accept it and Victarion should know that - but he is again refusing to see anything beyond a very limited viewpoint.

The comically inept form of freeing them so they can row for him and freeing the females slaves, yet they are still there to serve men. His concept of freeing people from slavery makes no sense and a man with a minimum of logic and analytical ability had realized that. The Lyseni would have made whores of you,” he told them, “but we have saved you. Now you need only serve one man instead of many.

As for Asha - well, she is telling him that A. She has been courting captains for four days and nights and only has her own men, the Harlaws, Tristifer, and a few others to show for it. B - She proposes that Victarion become king with her as his Hand in return for her support. C -  In addition, apart from becoming no 2, she wants to end the war and believes the Northmen will cede Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore (A scenario not that impossible, but slightly unlikely).

Now, Victarion doesn´t like this deal. I get that. And indeed having Asha as Hand might be seen as strange, but you could call the title something else. And he clearly gets the better part of the deal - Ashas influence is similiar to his, maybe somewhat weaker and she only get a No 2 position and the ending of a war. Victarion get basically everything else. But the main problem here is that Victarion need to choose and he need to understand that or he is stupid. Either he accept Ashas deal, let Euron win or figure out a plan to recruit more votes (which he clearly is unable to do - look of his treatment of Baelor Blacktyde. If he had acted like a politician and promised some minor support on the idea of ending the war he might have gotten that vote). He wrongly think his persona will be enough to win, he wrongly think the Harlaws will vote with him and he wrongly think everyone should see Eurons gifts as poisonous (at least Euron understand the need to actually GIVE gifts).

This is where his stupidity shines through the brightest. He clearly loathes having Euron as king (clearly his worst-case scenario), but is unable to do anything about it despite having several options and is unwilling to work with anyone not thinking exactly like him (again - no skill in problem solving). Euron was not unbeatable (and that you think he would have won anyway do make me wonder if you too, like Victarion, are unable to see outside of your box. Euron have several flaws - like being seen as scum and having visions unlikely to work out). He needs Asha or he need a great plan, but the man hasn´t even a strategy on how to win. What do you think would have happen if instead of "Shouts of Asha and Victarion surged back and forth, and it seemed as through some savage storm was about to engulf them all" all of those people had shouted Victarions name together? I´ll tell you what would have happen - Victarion would have been king. And that he doesn´t get that, and doesn´t make a critical analysis of the situation later does make him limited = low intelligence.

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6 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Yet, that approach to the gods doesn´t seem to be socially accepted on Iron Islands. It seems like they insist on only honouring the Drowned god and especially loathes the seven. There is no reason to believe that Damphair would accept it and Victarion should know that - but he is again refusing to see anything beyond a very limited viewpoint.

The comically inept form of freeing them so they can row for him and freeing the females slaves, yet they are still there to serve men. His concept of freeing people from slavery makes no sense and a man with a minimum of logic and analytical ability had realized that. The Lyseni would have made whores of you,” he told them, “but we have saved you. Now you need only serve one man instead of many.

As for Asha - well, she is telling him that A. She has been courting captains for four days and nights and only has her own men, the Harlaws, Tristifer, and a few others to show for it. B - She proposes that Victarion become king with her as his Hand in return for her support. C -  In addition, apart from becoming no 2, she wants to end the war and believes the Northmen will cede Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore (A scenario not that impossible, but slightly unlikely).

Now, Victarion doesn´t like this deal. I get that. And indeed having Asha as Hand might be seen as strange, but you could call the title something else. And he clearly gets the better part of the deal - Ashas influence is similiar to his, maybe somewhat weaker and she only get a No 2 position and the ending of a war. Victarion get basically everything else. But the main problem here is that Victarion need to choose and he need to understand that or he is stupid. Either he accept Ashas deal, let Euron win or figure out a plan to recruit more votes (which he clearly is unable to do - look of his treatment of Baelor Blacktyde. If he had acted like a politician and promised some minor support on the idea of ending the war he might have gotten that vote). He wrongly think his persona will be enough to win, he wrongly think the Harlaws will vote with him and he wrongly think everyone should see Eurons gifts as poisonous (at least Euron understand the need to actually GIVE gifts).

This is where his stupidity shines through the brightest. He clearly loathes having Euron as king (clearly his worst-case scenario), but is unable to do anything about it despite having several options and is unwilling to work with anyone not thinking exactly like him (again - no skill in problem solving). Euron was not unbeatable (and that you think he would have won anyway do make me wonder if you too, like Victarion, are unable to see outside of your box. Euron have several flaws - like being seen as scum and having visions unlikely to work out). He needs Asha or he need a great plan, but the man hasn´t even a strategy on how to win. What do you think would have happen if instead of "Shouts of Asha and Victarion surged back and forth, and it seemed as through some savage storm was about to engulf them all" all of those people had shouted Victarions name together? I´ll tell you what would have happen - Victarion would have been king. And that he doesn´t get that, and doesn´t make a critical analysis of the situation later does make him limited = low intelligence.

I don't think a scripture like the bible exists for the Drowned God, and Damphair is a hardliner, so it's hard to say whether his opinion reflects the majority in this regard. They do have a stormgod (admittedly as antagonist), so the Drowned God doesn't seem to be 100% monotheistic, or rather, I'm not sure if there's a rule excluding sacrifices to other gods completely as long as you honor the Drowned God as well. The Seven do exclude prayers to the Drowned God, so that could be a difference.  

 

To be fair, Euron's win wasn't really something everyone saw coming. He had been banished for years and Asha herself thinks that the Ironborn would only vote for someone they knew. Without the horn, he might not have won. So, from Victarion's point of view, chances were he would win without granting Asha a greenlander title at his side. 
 

So you see Euron's visions as a flaw? Why then did they elect him, if not because he promised them the whole of westeros, dragons, and a return to the Old Way? What could Vic possibly have promised them to beat Euron and his magical horn? Or his impressive amount of exotic treasury?

Sure, he's seen as scum. Didn't stop him from being elected. The Ironborn are used to scum I'm afraid. The question I have for you is, what could Vic have done to stop those who elected Euron from electing him? 

Your assumption is flawed. A lot of those people who shouted "Asha" or "Victarion" shouted "Euron" in the end of the day because Euron made a strong case. What would have stopped them from changing their minds?

 

And as I said, he doesn't act against Euron so quickly because the kingsmoot just elected him. It would be dangerous for him to act against Euron in this situation and for most Ironborn, it would also be morally wrong. 

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21 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Isn´t it more that Victarion is...limited. That he has a hard time thinking outside the box? That he has very little creativity and skills in problem solving? That he simply has a hard time understanding things not taught to him and can´t work outside his skillset at all? He is not Forest Gump, but he is clearly at the lower half intelligence-wise.

Because not only do the man think that R'hllor and the Drowned god would like his sacrifice (which most likely is blasphemy), he has a completely own version of "fighting slavery" and, as the biggest piece of evidence fail to understand Ashas offer and the realities behind it. That she want to pool resources and are willing to make him No 1 in return of becoming No 2 to stop Euron from winning. Not only do he say no to this offer, but has no strategy on how to win votes at all apart from showing up, beeing a badass and Balons brother (which is not enough, despite many tv-series saying it is).

He wanted to become king and stop Euron. He would have, if he had been able to cut a deal with Asha (and you even wonder when you read the short dialogue between them - did he really understood what she was saying and offering?) his arse would be on the seastone chair. Yet he didn´t and now Euron is king and he doesn´t seem to realize that it could have been prevented.

This is not the action of a smart man. It is not even the actions of a man of average intelligence. This is the low-grade intelligence at work, refusing to see anything beyond a very limited viewpoint and unable to deal with a situation on the fly. He is only good at doing things everyone else is doing and is seen as the norm and when he get frustrated, he get violent (just look at his reaction when he is mocked for the Dothraki sea). Hell, if he was going to start calling things stupid or being judgmental without feeling any need to fact check or consider opposing POV's he would been a perfect Alt-right member.

I see Victarion also more on the side of being of limited intelligence. He is brutal and ruthless as Balon and Euron, the only leader among the Ironborn showing a bit of empathy with their victims being Asha.

Protagoras summarized Victarions lack of cunning well. I do not have the quote at hand, but free from memory, Moqorro tells Victarion he would be a puppet on the strings with Euron (the Kraken) being the puppet-master. Surprisingly for me Victarion does not cut Moqorro's tongue out but just replies he would not be dancing for anyone.

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Protagoras summarized Victarions lack of cunning well. I do not have the quote at hand, but free from memory, Moqorro tells Victarion he would be a puppet on the strings with Euron (the Kraken) being the puppet-master. Surprisingly for me Victarion does not cut Moqorro's tongue out but just replies he would not be dancing for anyone.

Not really, he displays cunning several times in the series. 

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15 hours ago, John Doe said:

Your assumption is flawed. A lot of those people who shouted "Asha" or "Victarion" shouted "Euron" in the end of the day because Euron made a strong case. What would have stopped them from changing their minds?

There will be no time for them to change their minds. Such an overbearing majority would have ended Eurons chances by settling it before he could make a claim. That is the risk of "going last". Everyone will remember you, but if unlucky, people might already have decided what to vote for. Those people switching their vote did so because their first favored candidate were unable to win directly, forcing them to find another solution and thats why Eurons horn "worked". And you don´t want to be first either since people wait until they get some meat - in fact, Victarions choice when to present his claim was pretty good. People had heard "shit"claims and was getting tired of the process.

You can basically check many competitions to see this mid-game effect. In general you want to start in the middle. This is the only example I can find stats for but notice that between 8 and 20 (with 16 as the number out) we see a strong trend with more victories than the intervalls 1-7 and 21-27.

http://eschome.net/databaseoutput117.php

But again, my point is - Victarion was not screwed and Asha did offer him a way out. He might not have won anyway, you say? Ok, but it was still a better plan than the plan he had (no plan). Because, lets face it - Victarion was unable to beat "even" Asha at that Kingsmoot.

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16 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I see Victarion also more on the side of being of limited intelligence. He is brutal and ruthless as Balon and Euron, the only leader among the Ironborn showing a bit of empathy with their victims being Asha.

Protagoras summarized Victarions lack of cunning well. I do not have the quote at hand, but free from memory, Moqorro tells Victarion he would be a puppet on the strings with Euron (the Kraken) being the puppet-master. Surprisingly for me Victarion does not cut Moqorro's tongue out but just replies he would not be dancing for anyone.

Were you expecting him to pull his entrails out and make a flag out of 'em? That would have been cunning huh.

Irony aside, Vic is a very proud man and is very cautious on keeping a strong image. I was actually surprised he didn't at least kick him in the nuts and told him to go cook dinner for all the crew for 2 or 3 days because of his insolence. What you point out is not a sign of his lack of cunning, but of a man who keeps his head clear and overcome his recurrent violent and brutish ironborn ways and replies like a relatively civilized guy. Yeah, he can be a stump head and is one in a handful of occasions, just on that one.

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9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

There will be no time for them to change their minds. Such an overbearing majority would have ended Eurons chances by settling it before he could make a claim. That is the risk of "going last". Everyone will remember you, but if unlucky, people might already have decided what to vote for. Those people switching their vote did so because their first favored candidate were unable to win directly, forcing them to find another solution and thats why Eurons horn "worked". And you don´t want to be first either since people wait until they get some meat - in fact, Victarions choice when to present his claim was pretty good. People had heard "shit"claims and was getting tired of the process.

You can basically check many competitions to see this mid-game effect. In general you want to start in the middle. This is the only example I can find stats for but notice that between 8 and 20 (with 16 as the number out) we see a strong trend with more victories than the intervalls 1-7 and 21-27.

http://eschome.net/databaseoutput117.php

But again, my point is - Victarion was not screwed and Asha did offer him a way out. He might not have won anyway, you say? Ok, but it was still a better plan than the plan he had (no plan). Because, lets face it - Victarion was unable to beat "even" Asha at that Kingsmoot.

In most elections though, one candidate doesn't have a magical horn and tons of gold to bribe the voters. He was also the most charismatic and promised the Ironborn exactly what they wanted, a return to their old reaving ways, but not in the North. Euron just made the strongest case by far. I buy that candidates in the middle have on average better chances, but I don't think it outweighs all other fators. And I'd like to add that Victarion going in the middle shows he isn't so stupid.

Allying with Asha might have been better, sure, but then again there are also the reasons I stated that make it understandable why he didn't. 

Asha was unable to beat him as well, so it's hard to say who would have won without Euron's interference. 

 

8 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Were you expecting him to pull his entrails out and make a flag out of 'em? That would have been cunning huh.

Irony aside, Vic is a very proud man and is very cautious on keeping a strong image. I was actually surprised he didn't at least kick him in the nuts and told him to go cook dinner for all the crew for 2 or 3 days because of his insolence. What you point out is not a sign of his lack of cunning, but of a man who keeps his head clear and overcome his recurrent violent and brutish ironborn ways and replies like a relatively civilized guy. Yeah, he can be a stump head and is one in a handful of occasions, just on that one.

 

Spoiler

And then there's also him blocking the Shakazadhan (or however that river is spelled) with a fireship and using trade ships to take the Slavers by surprise. Victarion isn't without cunning at all. 

 

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