Birth Order of Serena and Sansa Stark

[All-Seeing Aye]

TWOIAF's Stark family tree shows that Serena and Sansa Stark were married to their half-uncles Edric and Jonnel Stark, respectively; Serena also was married to Jon Umber at some point, though it's unclear which marriage came first.

These marriages seem to be a way of circumventing Serena and Sansa's own claims to Winterfell after the death of their father Rickon Stark and Cregan Stark's remarriages.  Jonnel Stark was Cregan's new male heir; however, if there was dynastic intramarriage to bring together divergent lines why would Jonnel marry the younger half-niece (Sansa) instead of the elder (Serena)?  Surely if the goal was to neatly weave the lines together they would have matched Jonnel with Serena and Edric with Sansa (regardless would probably be less awkward than a normal avuncular marriage since they were all probably around the same age).

Also, I know it isn't canon per se but the MUSH family tree for House Stark (http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Stark/) shows a reversed birth order where Sansa is the elder, which would make much more sense.  Not sure how much of the material from the MUSH was used in the creation of TWOIAF, if at all, but since there were a lot of initial mistakes in the first printing (pointed out in the main errors thread) perhaps their current birth order is a mistake as well?

[direpupy]

probably more along the lines of serena being married to jon umber and thus being unavalible at the time, and when she became a widow she married her younger uncle.

[All-Seeing Aye]

5 hours ago, direpupy said:

probably more along the lines of serena being married to jon umber and thus being unavalible at the time, and when she became a widow she married her younger uncle.

But the central question is left as to why she wasn't married off to Jonnel in the first place.  As the elder of two Stark women who have claims that need to be controlled/brought back into the male line, marrying the eldest son of the Lord of Winterfell seems like a no-brainer.  Marrying Serena to Edric strengthens his own claim, and those of his children, against that of his elder brother.

If the birth order was reversed the situation would make a lot more sense; the elder, Sansa, marries her half-uncle, the male heir to Winterfell, while her younger sister first (probably) marries the next half-uncle and then at a later point is married to an Umber as a strategic move (possibly to get support for her own claim, possibly not). 

[direpupy]

5 hours ago, All-Seeing Aye said:

But the central question is left as to why she wasn't married off to Jonnel in the first place.  As the elder of two Stark women who have claims that need to be controlled/brought back into the male line, marrying the eldest son of the Lord of Winterfell seems like a no-brainer.  Marrying Serena to Edric strengthens his own claim, and those of his children, against that of his elder brother.

If the birth order was reversed the situation would make a lot more sense; the elder, Sansa, marries her half-uncle, the male heir to Winterfell, while her younger sister first (probably) marries the next half-uncle and then at a later point is married to an Umber as a strategic move (possibly to get support for her own claim, possibly not). 

Actually if Serena was betrohed to Jon umber before her fathers dead then it makes sence, since you can't just break a marriage agreement.

I really think that the birth order is correct, and also it is said that the dead of there father is much lamented because the rule of his half-brothers is rife with trouble. This may factor in to that.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Yeah it's hard to say what the case is exactly & we probably won't find out until "She-Wolves". My headcanon is that (after choosing Black Aly himself instead of Baela & Rickon being much older than Aegon's daughters) Cregan intended to fulfil the Pact of Ice & Fire with Jonnel for one of Baelor's sisters. Baelor would obviously refuse, especially once imprisoning them. To settle the matter, Viserys arranges a holy (non-fatal) trial by combat to appease religious Baelor & martial Cregan, with Aemon as the Crown's champion to ensure they win. This is when the Dragonknight crosses swords with Cregan, but calls him the best swordsman he ever faces. High praise of course from Aemon & he was 30 years younger - Cregan must have been some fighter! Anyway with Aemon winning the trial, the Pact is dissolved (the marriage alliance any) & Cregan marries Jonnel to Sansa.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 9-12-2016 at 7:01 AM, All-Seeing Aye said:

TWOIAF's Stark family tree shows that Serena and Sansa Stark were married to their half-uncles Edric and Jonnel Stark, respectively; Serena also was married to Jon Umber at some point, though it's unclear which marriage came first.

These marriages seem to be a way of circumventing Serena and Sansa's own claims to Winterfell after the death of their father Rickon Stark and Cregan Stark's remarriages.  Jonnel Stark was Cregan's new male heir; however, if there was dynastic intramarriage to bring together divergent lines why would Jonnel marry the younger half-niece (Sansa) instead of the elder (Serena)?  Surely if the goal was to neatly weave the lines together they would have matched Jonnel with Serena and Edric with Sansa (regardless would probably be less awkward than a normal avuncular marriage since they were all probably around the same age).

Perhaps Serena had been married to Jon Umber before Rickon's death. In that case, Rickon could still have been expecting to have a son, before his own death during the Conquest of Dorne.

[Orphalesion]

Sorry if that doesn't quite fit, but I'm more confused as to why Ned chose to name his oldest daughter after the older Sansa Stark, a childless and seemingly unimportant relative many times removed. At least Arya was (probably) named after a maternal grandmother, but Sansa.

It totally baffles me.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

8 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Sorry if that doesn't quite fit, but I'm more confused as to why Ned chose to name his oldest daughter after the older Sansa Stark, a childless and seemingly unimportant relative many times removed. At least Arya was (probably) named after a maternal grandmother, but Sansa.

It totally baffles me.

Meta: Sansa, daughter of Ned & Cat, was created by GRRM c.1991. Sansa, daughter of Rickon & Jeyne, perhaps wasn't until after The Mystery Knight was published in 2010.

In-universe: Perhaps our Sansa was named for a more prominent historical Stark lady (& so Sansa, Serena's sister, presumably too). Mayhaps Sansa was a name that had been used by more than just Winterfell & its region - say in the Riverlands, say a Tully, & Cat liked it & it was a nice connection between to the two Houses ...

[Orphalesion]

14 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Meta: Sansa, daughter of Ned & Cat, was created by GRRM c.1991. Sansa, daughter of Rickon & Jeyne, perhaps wasn't until after The Mystery Knight was published in 2010.

In-universe: Perhaps our Sansa was named for a more prominent historical Stark lady (& so Sansa, Serena's sister, presumably too). Mayhaps Sansa was a name that had been used by more than just Winterfell & its region - say in the Riverlands, say a Tully, & Cat liked it & it was a nice connection between to the two Houses ...

Yeah the meta aspect is clear to me (though it, in some ways.confuses me even more because GRRM could have easily named Lyarra or Marna Locke Sansa instead. I understand why Ned might want to avoid naming his daughter after the beloved sister that was taken from the family in such tragic events (and with Jon around), but his mother or paternal grandmother? Makes you really wonder what Ned's relationship to his mother was like or if he avoided her name due to the similarity to Lyanna.

I like the theory that there was an even older, more prominent Sansa Stark or a Sansa Tully.

Maybe we'll learn more in She-Wolves...

[a black swan]

56 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Yeah the meta aspect is clear to me (though it, in some ways.confuses me even more because GRRM could have easily named Lyarra or Marna Locke Sansa instead. I understand why Ned might want to avoid naming his daughter after the beloved sister that was taken from the family in such tragic events (and with Jon around), but his mother or paternal grandmother? Makes you really wonder what Ned's relationship to his mother was like or if he avoided her name due to the similarity to Lyanna.

I like the theory that there was an even older, more prominent Sansa Stark or a Sansa Tully.

Maybe we'll learn more in She-Wolves...

Didn't GRRM just want a different sounding name to Arya? Something soft to contrast Arya's name, a character he already had on paper before Sansa came along to be her foil. 

Also, why does her name have to trace back to someone prominent? It's cool anyway. 

Plus, doesn't "Sansa" have meaning anyway related to her story? 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Yeah I'm guessing Lyarra was too similar to Lyanna (who was presumably named for her mother &/or Cregan's 3rd wife, Lynara). Marna ... good point ... The only possibility maybe was he chose traditional Stark names for his children after Robb to emphasis such (particularly with how disastrous Rickard's matches for his children were - save the love of Ned & Cat's marriage & that it continued the main Stark line - & how many interregional or within House Stark marriages there had been for Winterfell since the Dance, & particularly the last few gens - the likes of the Ryswells had come to not be especially happy about) ... Or perhaps just a factor of Ned's isolationism within Winterfell & the North for the most part after the Bobellion ...

Yeah a Tully one would be especially interesting but more like GRRM would have Janices, Abbys, Ms. Piggys, etc for the women of Riverrun!

EDIT: On the Stark names - Arya - there's an Arsa Stark & an Arrana Stark - the latter being a descendant of Arra Norrey (& so perhaps named for her) & the former could possibly be a mother of Arya Flint.

[Orphalesion]

4 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Didn't GRRM just want a different sounding name to Arya? Something soft to contrast Arya's name, a character he already had on paper before Sansa came along to be her foil. 

Also, why does her name have to trace back to someone prominent? It's cool anyway. 

Plus, doesn't "Sansa" have meaning anyway related to her story? 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your first point, the question is not why Sansa is named Sansa but why GRRM hasn't tied the name to the Stark family tree in a more obvious matter when he created said family tree for WoIaF.

Because all the other Stark children are named after people in Ned's immediate family or people that practically were family to him (or have been retconned into being so, in Arya's case) Robb: Robert Baratheon (basically Ned's brother), Jon: Jon Arryn (basically Ned's second father), Bran: Ned's late brother, Rickon: Ned's biological father, Arya: Ned's maternal grandmother (as revealed in WoIaF) Sansa:...... some (as far as we know) unimportant,  distant relation, generations in the past. Seems a bit odd that Sansa would be the only one with a name that has little/no significance except for that one distant relation.   

No the name Sansa (in the context of the world of Westeros) is made up and unlike Tolkien where almost every name can be interprated, GRRM has not really given meanings to the names he has invented (or whether English/almost English sounding names have different meanings in Westeros, of course if you look long enough into the hundreds of languages and thousands of names that have existed throughout history, you'll probably find something, but that doesn't mean GRRM knew about it or had it in mind)

You are probably thinking of the theory that Sansa and Joffrey draw inspiration from Sancha of Aragon and Gioffre Brogia, a noble couple from the Italian Renaisance. Though the inspiration doesn't go further than the names, since Sancha and Gioffre were more akin to Margaery and Tommen than Sansa an Joffrey.