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R+L=J v.163


J. Stargaryen

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On December 30, 2016 at 9:50 PM, maudisdottir said:

Well no, actually, not to the extent you seem to think it's important.  If we were supposed to associate him with blue roses, why not make him wear an actual blue rose?  Or even a rose emblem, something indicating blue roses.  Instead, one of the bitchiest, most cynical POV characters thinks - she doesn't even say it aloud - that he washed his hair in rosewater "from blue roses, no doubt".  This is a very tenuous link for the readers to associate Blue Bard = blue roses = treachery.

Okay--but we don't get the Blue Bard until Feast. After we've met Bael-ish and seen Ned's memories and dreams of blue roses in Game. And then heard the Bael Tale in Clash. And been reminded of it in Storm with Mance--and with Bael-ish's taking Sansa (who's called a roadside rose while wearing blue by a singer--a singer who's then used by Bael-ish as a fall guy in his own plot). 

After all of that--we get the Blue Bard--name capitalized and no real name until the poor guy gets tortured. He's barely a person--he's a singing, scented, colored symbol. Singing for the very girl who others tried to use as a substitute Lyanna in Game. 

Of all the people Martin could have put in for Cersei to use as leverage against Rose Maid Marg, he gives us a blue rose scented singing man--a Bard. And only 4 singers are called "bard" in the books: Bael, Mance when he's Abel (obvious anagram of Bael), the Blue Bard, and that guy on the Windblown. 

One way or another, the Blue Bard is clearly someone we're supposed to notice. I agree that he alone is not enough to support that the roses mean treachery. But he fits with the context from the three previous books: Bael-ish, Bael, Mance, and Ned's memories and dreams.

On December 30, 2016 at 9:50 PM, maudisdottir said:

And yes, Bael deceived the Lord of Winterfell, and used the blue rose as a kind of "fuck you" to Lord Stark.  But even so, Lord Stark's daughter loved Bael (even 30 years later)

Actually, the only part of the Bael Tale Ygritte puts a caveat on is the idea that "the maid loved Bael so dearly:"

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The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me." Clash, Jon VI

So, Ygritte puts a caveat on the idea that the maid loved Bael--the ONLY part of the story she calls into question. Seems worth noting.

And we have no idea if Baelette killed herself for love. Seems more likely it was because her refusal to tell her son who his father was resulted in that son becoming a kinslayer: 

 
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"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.
"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." Clash, Jon VI

 

 
In fact, the whole story gets told in response to Jon's asking if the men who have died are Ygritte's kin. Her insistence that Jon is kin to those north of the Wall. It's a warning tale about kinslaying--not about love.
We don't know how the Bael Maid actually felt, but horror over her son's kinslaying--a kinslaying she promoted by not telling the truth--that would fit the context really, really well.
On December 30, 2016 at 9:50 PM, maudisdottir said:

and Lyanna may have loved Rhaegar.  She certainly hung onto that blue rose crown for a long time, considering they were such a symbol of treachery.

She may have loved him, but literally nothing in the text says the roses the was holding were from that crown. 

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On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:49 AM, Ygrain said:

Since Mel is dead wrong and Stannis' red sword is a fake, claiming that the burning sword in Jon's dream symbolizes those two is a huge stretch.

Especially when the sword burning in Jon's hand is named, "Long Claw", specifically in the dream. 

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On January 2, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, the Blue Bard is clearly someone we're supposed to notice. I agree that he alone is not enough to support that the roses mean treachery. But he fits with the context from the three previous books: Bael-ish, Bael, Mance, and Ned's memories and dreams.

 

Sorry Sly Wren, the blue roses as 'treachery' does not fit with the context from the previous three books...

It fits the context of every story GRRM has ever written.  :cheers:

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On 1/2/2017 at 7:37 PM, Sly Wren said:

Okay--but we don't get the Blue Bard until Feast. After we've met Bael-ish and seen Ned's memories and dreams of blue roses in Game. And then heard the Bael Tale in Clash. And been reminded of it in Storm with Mance--and with Bael-ish's taking Sansa (who's called a roadside rose while wearing blue by a singer--a singer who's then used by Bael-ish as a fall guy in his own plot). 

After all of that--we get the Blue Bard--name capitalized and no real name until the poor guy gets tortured. He's barely a person--he's a singing, scented, colored symbol. Singing for the very girl who others tried to use as a substitute Lyanna in Game. 

Of all the people Martin could have put in for Cersei to use as leverage against Rose Maid Marg, he gives us a blue rose scented singing man--a Bard. And only 4 singers are called "bard" in the books: Bael, Mance when he's Abel (obvious anagram of Bael), the Blue Bard, and that guy on the Windblown. 

One way or another, the Blue Bard is clearly someone we're supposed to notice. I agree that he alone is not enough to support that the roses mean treachery. But he fits with the context from the three previous books: Bael-ish, Bael, Mance, and Ned's memories and dreams.

Actually, the only part of the Bael Tale Ygritte puts a caveat on is the idea that "the maid loved Bael so dearly:"

So, Ygritte puts a caveat on the idea that the maid loved Bael--the ONLY part of the story she calls into question. Seems worth noting.

And we have no idea if Baelette killed herself for love. Seems more likely it was because her refusal to tell her son who his father was resulted in that son becoming a kinslayer: 

 
 
In fact, the whole story gets told in response to Jon's asking if the men who have died are Ygritte's kin. Her insistence that Jon is kin to those north of the Wall. It's a warning tale about kinslaying--not about love.
We don't know how the Bael Maid actually felt, but horror over her son's kinslaying--a kinslaying she promoted by not telling the truth--that would fit the context really, really well.

She may have loved him, but literally nothing in the text says the roses the was holding were from that crown. 

Hmmm Blue rose = treachery. So Beal not symbolized by a rose, betrays a host and either runs away with or kidnaps a Blue rose symbolized by the blue rose he left in exchange for her and is thus treacherous?

The Blue Bard who is black mailed and tortured is not actually symbolized by a rose but a bard much like Beal, and Marg is pretty clearly symbolic of a rose is being framed and thus the two of them symbolize treachery, not Cersei the person doing it? Cause Marg and the Bard are actually innocent here.

LF nice catch, is also pretty clearly the manipulator around the Winterfell rose which is Sansa. The Bard is a scum bag but not guilty of what he is framed for. That was  "Beal"ish as you put it. The Bard was once again blackmailed and he is not symbolic of blue rose and neither is LF.

So, so far in two of these cases the Roses are innocent, so are the bards.

Loras the Blue rose at the tourney, gave a rose to Sansa, he was guilty of sort of cheating in a Joust, there is actually no rule against what he did, so.

Jeyne Poole, sort of rose of Winterfell, she is marked by Blue, her house colors. Mance well his big color was really Red or Red and black. Jeyne a victim of Blackmail, torture, rape and countless abuse is symbolic of Blue rose treachery? And Mance Bard is also part of that treachery to rescue her? So the tretchery is not placed on the Lannisters or the Boltons, but on the victim and the person or persons who try and rescue her? Maybe from a Cersei or Bolton perspective but I think most people would say Jeyne is very much innocent.

Like if someone like Cersei had blue rose symbolism that might be a good way of saying it symbolizes treachery. But a constant case of at least 6 examples being innocent, blackmailed, abused and framed seems to indicate that treachery should probably be placed on the ones causing the problem. Not to mention while their are a few examples of blue rose symbolism, there is a shit ton of treachery and the blue roses are not always to be found. In fact it's rare. 

You could have someone holding a blue rose be very bad and manipulative, and someone symbolized by it be innocent, and you can have a whole lot of bad going on and no blue rose to be found, which probably suggest that the symbolism may not be what you think it is. Interesting idea though. It's tougher when you don't actually have the whole story. Generally it's just the use of the unity of opposition as related to cyclical nature. You know that saying, "History does not repeat but it often rhymes?" Kind of like that. You know you can dip your toe in the same spot of a river, on the same day at the same time every year, but you will never step in the same water again. Parallels? Yes. Similarities? Yes. But also flow and change.

Personally I would say the symbolism is to inconstant in terms of a literary device to identify it as treachery. While there is treachery in these sort of rhyming situations there are also other consistent patterns as well. I would say the treachery is being placed in the wrong spot. Or at least at times it is. Each one of those stories had similar themes, but they are also all different as well. Probably tells you something about the past and foreshadows something yet to happen.

Jeyne is a good example she might be blue but she is not exactly a winter rose. And her story is not the same as Marg, Lyanna, Sansa, some similarities but it's not all same. Similarities also help you identify what is different. 

  

 

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I added @Kingmonkey's essay to the OP. It's near the top with the other essays and the Radio Westeros podcast. There was some discussion of an accompanying description, but I wasn't sure if that had been decided upon or not, so I just left it bare bones for now.

---

As for GRRM always associating blue roses and treachery, RLJ already allows for that in multiple ways, not to mention secrecy, bitterness, heartbreak, forbidden love, etc. For example, Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is certainly a breach of trust since she was betrothed to Robert.

To be clear, this entire angle of @Sly Wren's exists as a way to explain Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses, but Arthur fathering her baby. That is, this isn't a natural conclusion. This is the fruit of someone who went looking for an alternative explanation to fit with a preconceived idea. But I just don't know how we can work around the fact that GRRM connects roses with Lyanna's birthing bed.

I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was… fond of flowers. - Eddard I

So, "blood and roses" equals bed of blood/bloody bed and blue winter roses. Though the roses here aren't blue, they don't need to be, as no other colored roses are connected to Lyanna. That, and the fact that Ned's ToJ dream includes Lyanna and blue rose petals.

Interestingly, the "blood and roses" Ned describes here are the colors red and black, Targaryen colors. IMO, if you know the text well enough, the phrase "blood and roses" is enough to tell you who Jon's parents are. Because it means that Lyanna gave birth, and points to a specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. Because only Rhaegar gave her roses.

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I think it's pretty clear that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

And if I'm following the current conversation correctly as I haven't been on in awhile, I take it there is some new information regarding this particular symbolism around the blue rose?

In terms of blue roses as a sign of "treachery," I think it's more along the lines that the blue roses signify or symbolizes certain things outside the norm, and it has more to do with flying in the face of the social norms of that particular society, violation of guest rights, (a BIG no no in medieval society), as might be applied to Bael the Bard, and loosely, applied to Rhaegar defying the existing norms of the tourney, as well as what the North seems to exemplify to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

Though it was the largest kingdom pre-Aegon, to the rest of the kingdoms, they are as mysterious and "foreign," as Dorne. Dangerous with the forests full of "wolves."

"The blue rose does not occur in nature, at least not the absolute blue rose. Blue roses were at first created by dyeing white roses. Some people mistake lavender roses for blue ones. So, the closest we can get to blue roses are the lilac to almost black category. Roses lack the pigment that produces blue color. The blue rose has been painstakingly created and imbued with a special meaning.

Much like its mysterious origin, the blue rose means mystery. An appreciation for the enigmatic, the inexplicable is expressed by the blue rose. A tantalizing vision that cannot be totally pinned down, a mystery that cannot be fully unraveled is the blue rose. A person who receives the blue rose is the subject of much speculation and thought. A complex personality that does not allow easy interpretation is what the blue rose indicates.

Another meaning of the blue rose is that it symbolizes the impossible, or the unattainable. Since the blue rose itself is a rarity in nature, it stands for something that is hardly within one's grasp, an object that seems too difficult to be achieved. Thus the blue rose is admired and revered as an unachievable dream.

The blue rose being in itself something very extraordinary expresses that very same feeling. "You are extraordinarily wonderful", the blue rose exclaims. A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like is what the blue rose says about the receiver. A flight of fancy, an irrepressible imagination is what the blue rose is all about.

Blue and its deeper shade purple have for long symbolized mystery and ambiguity. Again, the fact that the blue rose is a flower that has been fabricated increases this sense of surrealism. The meaning of the blue rose in this sense is an appreciation for something that cannot be grasped in full measure.

The lighter shade of the blue rose, which is almost akin to lilac, expresses the first flush of love. Enchantment, a feeling of being completely bowled over in the very first instance is another delightful meaning of the blue rose. Lavender and lilac have both been associated with romance since time immemorial.

The blue rose is also used as a symbol of caution. It expresses a need to be discrete. Again, there is a whiff of secrecy and mystery as expressed by the blue color.

New opportunities and new possibilities are also some other meanings of the blue rose. The blue rose denotes the excitement and the possibilities that new ventures bring. The mysterious beginnings of new things and the excitement therein are very nicely expressed by this flower.

The blue rose is a flower that seeks to convey a message of mystery, enchantment and a sense of the impossible. One should never forget that as a flower that is not found freely in nature, the blue rose has a certain charm and unique mystery that does not reveal itself freely.

Fantasy and impossibility. Hoping for a miracle and new possibilities. Many people have a quest or a fascination for blue roses. I have a book by Ibn al Awam, which was written in the twelfth century, translated into French by J. J. Clement entitled Le livre de l'agriculture. the book speaks of azure blue roses that were known to the orient. These blue roses were attained by placing a blue die into the bark of the roots. This process is explained in the book and has been proven to work by Joret, a very knowledgeable french scientist.

The unattainable, the impossible."

 

 

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8 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I added @Kingmonkey's essay to the OP. It's near the top with the other essays and the Radio Westeros podcast. There was some discussion of an accompanying description, but I wasn't sure if that had been decided upon or not, so I just left it bare bones for now.

---

As for GRRM always associating blue roses and treachery, RLJ already allows for that in multiple ways, not to mention secrecy, bitterness, heartbreak, forbidden love, etc. For example, Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is certainly a breach of trust since she was betrothed to Robert.

To be clear, this entire angle of @Sly Wren's exists as a way to explain Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses, but Arthur fathering her baby. That is, this isn't a natural conclusion. This is the fruit of someone who went looking for an alternative explanation to fit with a preconceived idea. But I just don't know how we can work around the fact that GRRM connects roses with Lyanna's birthing bed.

I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was… fond of flowers. - Eddard I

So, "blood and roses" equals bed of blood/bloody bed and blue winter roses. Though the roses here aren't blue, they don't need to be, as no other colored roses are connected to Lyanna. That, and the fact that Ned's ToJ dream includes Lyanna and blue rose petals.

Interestingly, the "blood and roses" Ned describes here are the colors red and black, Targaryen colors. IMO, if you know the text well enough, the phrase "blood and roses" is enough to tell you who Jon's parents are. Because it means that Lyanna gave birth, and points to a specific man, Rhaegar Targaryen. Because only Rhaegar gave her roses.

I see, well I don't find it to compelling either way.

You gotta a rose which is sometimes blue but not always in the examples, and you got bards in the examples so music/story/song also can be associated with the rose? Along with the use of a trinity, 3 parts?

Bards? Music? Rose? Sounds like a possible association to a song. Must be 1979 Bette Middler Song called the Rose, and everyone knows it. You can get the full Lyrics anywhere really. But a sample of roses associated with Songs. It's actually a pretty good match but maybe the song is associated to something else in the series. Just a guess.

When the night has been too lonely and the road has been too long
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong
Just remember in the winter, far beneath the bitter snow
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love in the spring becomes the rose.

Anyway it's good to see some of the old regulars, hope you all are doing well, happy new year to the Scoobs. No blues in the song, but lots of duality.

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On January 6, 2017 at 1:58 AM, Voice said:

Sorry Sly Wren, the blue roses as 'treachery' does not fit with the context from the previous three books...

It fits the context of every story GRRM has ever written.  :cheers:

:cheers:

On January 9, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Alia of the knife said:

In terms of blue roses as a sign of "treachery," I think it's more along the lines that the blue roses signify or symbolizes certain things outside the norm, and it has more to do with flying in the face of the social norms of that particular society, violation of guest rights, (a BIG no no in medieval society), as might be applied to Bael the Bard, and loosely, applied to Rhaegar defying the existing norms of the tourney, as well as what the North seems to exemplify to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

I agree that it points to things outside the norm.

But in the context of the novels--Bael did not leave that rose for any reason other than a massive insult and sign of his treachery/trickery.

Bael-ish is not acting out of love in taking Sansa (dressed in blue when she's called a Roadside Rose by Singer Marillion). And Cersei's far from cuddly when using the Blue Bard (all blue and rose scented) against Marg--the Rose Maid first introduced to us when Renly's thinking of using  her as a counterfeit Lyanna--a counterfeit Stark Maid.

So far in the context of the novels, the blue roses in light of the stolen Stark Maids are not good. Which fits with Ned's seeing the blue roses full of thorns and the petals "blue as the eyes of death" when he's fighting.

On January 7, 2017 at 0:28 PM, Ser Creighton said:

So, so far in two of these cases the Roses are innocent, so are the bards.

But the intent of the plotter using the roses and the singers is nowhere near innocent--in Bael-ish, in Cersei, even in Mance. Yet another reason I think Rhaegar was working with someone (Tywin and maybe Jon Arryn) but then got double crossed/used for the plotter to gain power.

On January 7, 2017 at 0:28 PM, Ser Creighton said:

Personally I would say the symbolism is to inconstant in terms of a literary device to identify it as treachery. While there is treachery in these sort of rhyming situations there are also other consistent patterns as well. I would say the treachery is being placed in the wrong spot. Or at least at times it is. Each one of those stories had similar themes, but they are also all different as well. Probably tells you something about the past and foreshadows something yet to happen.

Inconsistent variants in the Bael Tale? A stolen Stark maid, taken from her (or his--in Jon's case) family and "deflowered" or "Defamed" in some way, used for a vengeance or political purpose, with the roses as part of the plot?

Yes, there are variants, but so far we've got multiple variations of that story--in Mance, Bael-ish, and Cersei.

On January 9, 2017 at 10:49 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

As for GRRM always associating blue roses and treachery, RLJ already allows for that in multiple ways, not to mention secrecy, bitterness, heartbreak, forbidden love, etc. For example, Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is certainly a breach of trust since she was betrothed to Robert.

Yes--if Rhaegar took Lyanna as part of "teaching an enemy a lesson" or for a political/vengeance plot. And then either raped her or seduced her--it would fit the Bael Tale and the variants we have of it in every novel so far.

Quote

To be clear, this entire angle of @Sly Wren's exists as a way to explain Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses, but Arthur fathering her baby. That is, this isn't a natural conclusion. This is the fruit of someone who went looking for an alternative explanation to fit with a preconceived idea. But I just don't know how we can work around the fact that GRRM connects roses with Lyanna's birthing bed.

Actually, no--I was trying to figure out how the roses worked. At the time, I was waffling a lot re: Arthur. 

And I can still see a path to Rhaegar--just one that would require some messy stuff in the writing.

As for "the fruit of someone who went looking"--we all go looking for things. Sometimes we find stuff that changes our minds. Sometimes we find stuff that confirms theories. 

But no one reads without bias--we're people, not computers.

ETA: As for the birthing bed: one way or another, Lyanna ended up in that bed because she was "stolen"--probably for political/vengeance reasons (like Baelette, Sansa, and even Arya with the Brotherhood). Whether Rhaegar got her pregnant or not, her pregnancy would be tied to that "stealing."

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6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

:cheers:

I agree that it points to things outside the norm.

But in the context of the novels--Bael did not leave that rose for any reason other than a massive insult and sign of his treachery/trickery.

Bael-ish is not acting out of love in taking Sansa (dressed in blue when she's called a Roadside Rose by Singer Marillion). And Cersei's far from cuddly when using the Blue Bard (all blue and rose scented) against Marg--the Rose Maid first introduced to us when Renly's thinking of using  her as a counterfeit Lyanna--a counterfeit Stark Maid.

So far in the context of the novels, the blue roses in light of the stolen Stark Maids are not good. Which fits with Ned's seeing the blue roses full of thorns and the petals "blue as the eyes of death" when he's fighting.

But the intent of the plotter using the roses and the singers is nowhere near innocent--in Bael-ish, in Cersei, even in Mance. Yet another reason I think Rhaegar was working with someone (Tywin and maybe Jon Arryn) but then got double crossed/used for the plotter to gain power.

Inconsistent variants in the Bael Tale? A stolen Stark maid, taken from her (or his--in Jon's case) family and "deflowered" or "Defamed" in some way, used for a vengeance or political purpose, with the roses as part of the plot?

Yes, there are variants, but so far we've got multiple variations of that story--in Mance, Bael-ish, and Cersei.

Yes--if Rhaegar took Lyanna as part of "teaching an enemy a lesson" or for a political/vengeance plot. And then either raped her or seduced her--it would fit the Bael Tale and the variants we have of it in every novel so far.

Actually, no--I was trying to figure out how the roses worked. At the time, I was waffling a lot re: Arthur. 

And I can still see a path to Rhaegar--just one that would require some messy stuff in the writing.

As for "the fruit of someone who went looking"--we all go looking for things. Sometimes we find stuff that changes our minds. Sometimes we find stuff that confirms theories. 

But no one reads without bias--we're people, not computers.

ETA: As for the birthing bed: one way or another, Lyanna ended up in that bed because she was "stolen"--probably for political/vengeance reasons (like Baelette, Sansa, and even Arya with the Brotherhood). Whether Rhaegar got her pregnant or not, her pregnancy would be tied to that "stealing."

It is also worth considering that Ned describes the crown of blue roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna as a crown for the "queen of beauty."  This is different from every other description of the token given to a lady by the winner of a tournament, which is a token for the "Queen of Love and Beauty."  Indeed, the only person other than Ned to use the term "queen of beauty" -- omitting "Love" -- is none other than Petyr Baelish.  In AGOT, he tells Sansa that Catelyn was once his "queen of beauty."  Because we know that Baelish's obsession for Cat was an unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession, this may be a clue that Rhaegar had a similar unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession for Lyanna.  

See this thread for more details:

 

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12 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is also worth considering that Ned describes the crown of blue roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna as a crown for the "queen of beauty."  This is different from every other description of the token given to a lady by the winner of a tournament, which is a token for the "Queen of Love and Beauty."  Indeed, the only person other than Ned to use the term "queen of beauty" -- omitting "Love" -- is none other than Petyr Baelish.  In AGOT, he tells Sansa that Catelyn was once his "queen of beauty."  Because we know that Baelish's obsession for Cat was an unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession, this may be a clue that Rhaegar had a similar unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession for Lyanna.  

Okay--very interesting!

Especially since that's Bael-ish's take--and it leads him to take another Stark entirely partly in vengeance against those who got in the way of his love. And partly as a power play.

So, maybe Rhaegar had an unhealthy obsession.

Or maybe an unhealthy obsession with something else entirely resulted in the taking of Stark maid Lyanna--as it led to Bael-ish's taking of Sansa. And, arguably, the Brotherhood and even the Hound's taking Arya.

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For me, one of the biggest evidence that Rhaegar is not Jons father is still that Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar for years in a Game of Thrones. That doesn't makes sense if R+L=J would be true. How can a men raise the son of another man and not thinking about him? Especially if he's a Targaryen, if Ned has to watch if he shows any signs for the madness of Aerys. 

 

I'm 100% sure that Jon is the Son of Ashara and Ned. They both married under a heart tree, which adds a good reason why Hoster Tully would probably demand that the Winterfell has to take the faith of the seven, to make this marriage less legitimate.

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51 minutes ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

 How can a men raise the son of another man and not thinking about him? Especially if he's a Targaryen, if Ned has to watch if he shows any signs for the madness of Aerys. 

Because he is merely a character in a book and author does not want to give away the most major plot point of the whole series 

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57 minutes ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

For me, one of the biggest evidence that Rhaegar is not Jons father is still that Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar for years in a Game of Thrones. That doesn't makes sense if R+L=J would be true. How can a men raise the son of another man and not thinking about him? Especially if he's a Targaryen, if Ned has to watch if he shows any signs for the madness of Aerys.

Ned talks and thinks about Rhaegar in a number of his chapters before the one where it says something along the lines of Ned found himself remembering Rhaegar for the first time in years. It certainly doesn't mean that Ned doesn't think about Rhaegar. The previous chapters clearly show that he does.

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"Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever." - Eddard VIII

"There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." - Eddard IX

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7 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

For me, one of the biggest evidence that Rhaegar is not Jons father is still that Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar for years in a Game of Thrones. That doesn't makes sense if R+L=J would be true. How can a men raise the son of another man and not thinking about him? Especially if he's a Targaryen, if Ned has to watch if he shows any signs for the madness of Aerys. 

As you can see from the quotes, it's not that Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar but that he hasn't remembered him. Like, my ex is my son's father, so it's impossible not to think about him every now and then, but as the time passes, I spend less and less time pondering about him. In that post-brothel chapter, when Ned is disillusioned with Robert and remembers Lyanna's misgivings about him, the first time in years he resorts to what he knows about Rhaegar to make an assessment about him.

7 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I'm 100% sure that Jon is the Son of Ashara and Ned. They both married under a heart tree, which adds a good reason why Hoster Tully would probably demand that the Winterfell has to take the faith of the seven, to make this marriage less legitimate.

Marriage is either valid or not. There is not a single hint in the books, ever, that southerners considered the northern rite invalid, and vice versa. Hence Ned would be either a bigamist, or he would father a bastard. If he ever had sex with Ashara, which I don't believe.

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On 15-1-2017 at 4:19 AM, The Twinslayer said:

It is also worth considering that Ned describes the crown of blue roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna as a crown for the "queen of beauty."  This is different from every other description of the token given to a lady by the winner of a tournament, which is a token for the "Queen of Love and Beauty."  Indeed, the only person other than Ned to use the term "queen of beauty" -- omitting "Love" -- is none other than Petyr Baelish.  In AGOT, he tells Sansa that Catelyn was once his "queen of beauty."  Because we know that Baelish's obsession for Cat was an unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession, this may be a clue that Rhaegar had a similar unhealthy and unreciprocated obsession for Lyanna.  

See this thread for more details:

 

Interesting observation!

 

9 hours ago, Queen Historia I Reiss said:

I'm 100% sure that Jon is the Son of Ashara and Ned. They both married under a heart tree, which adds a good reason why Hoster Tully would probably demand that the Winterfell has to take the faith of the seven, to make this marriage less legitimate.

But he didn't demand this.. House Stark still follows the old gods. Eddard had a small sept build for Catelyn, sure, and allows his children to worship the Seven as well, but as far as I recall, the only child who frequently does so is Sansa. 

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On 1/14/2017 at 2:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

Yes--if Rhaegar took Lyanna as part of "teaching an enemy a lesson" or for a political/vengeance plot. And then either raped her or seduced her--it would fit the Bael Tale and the variants we have of it in every novel so far.

This is only required to fit into your interpretation of events. For example, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to suppose that Rhaegar arranged Lyanna's post-tourney stay at HH, and work from there. That kind of deception would account for treachery. But still, that's assuming we even need to account for that, which isn't a certainty. Just one of your parameters.

On 1/14/2017 at 2:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

Actually, no--I was trying to figure out how the roses worked. At the time, I was waffling a lot re: Arthur. 

Except that RLJ already provides a pretty good explanation for how they work. Are you saying it's a coincidence that you went looking for something extra, when that "something extra" is a requirement of AD+L=J?

On 1/14/2017 at 2:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

And I can still see a path to Rhaegar--just one that would require some messy stuff in the writing.

Lol.

On 1/14/2017 at 2:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

As for "the fruit of someone who went looking"--we all go looking for things. Sometimes we find stuff that changes our minds. Sometimes we find stuff that confirms theories.

But no one reads without bias--we're people, not computers.

Fine. But the point I was making was, yours was not a natural conclusion. You had to go looking for it in order to "find" it. So, you had a conclusion in mind, which required a certain type of explanation— one that de-emphasized the connection between Rhaegar and the blue roses. Lo and behold, "treachery."

On 1/14/2017 at 2:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

ETA: As for the birthing bed: one way or another, Lyanna ended up in that bed because she was "stolen"--probably for political/vengeance reasons (like Baelette, Sansa, and even Arya with the Brotherhood). Whether Rhaegar got her pregnant or not, her pregnancy would be tied to that "stealing."

This right here. How is this cleaner than the RLJ explanation I provided?

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