R+L=J v.163

[SFDanny]

9 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

I will reevaluate the theory itself, it seems like everyone here definately thinks R+L=J beyond a doubt, can you point me on the right direction for the Ned and Ashara child theory you speak of? is there a better explanation as to how it would be possible?

Not everyone buys into the R+L=J theory, but most do. Don't let that pressure you from expressing a different theory. Just be prepared to back it up. 

Ned and Ashara as Jon's parents has the advantage of actually being believed by some of the characters in books. We know Catelyn suspects this is the case. No one in the books has expressed even a hint that they think Jon might be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. So, in terms of explicit textual support Ned and Ashara would seem, on the surface, to be the more likely candidates. I won't hide from you that I think a deeper look supports Rhaegar and Lyanna.

One of the objections to Ned and Ashara has long been concerning the timeline. Jon is conceived about three or four months into the rebellion and that raises the question of how Ned and Ashara would have been together at that time. Ned is busy being a rebel commander and fighting such battles as the Battle of the Bells during this period. It would seem unlikely that a loyalist with strong ties to Rhaegar could walk into Ned's army and stay for a romantic weekend with Lord Stark. But Martin has made it clear that Ashara was not "nailed to the floor in Dorne" so her sneaking into camp, or meeting Ned in some remote location away from prying eyes, cannot be ruled out. And that is where the opening for N+A=J finds life.

Is it a strong possibility? No, I think not, but Martin has gone to great lengths to keep the possibility alive, so one cannot rule it out. However one has to also answer lots of other objections to the idea. Such as why did Ned keep the identity of Jon's mother such a secret for all these years. Why did he lie to Robert about who was Jon's mother? And on and on it goes.

Suffice it to say, I think the case has grown weaker for this to be true. The revelation of Ashara being dishonored and having a stillborn daughter, I think, points to Brandon more than it does to Ned. Others here will disagree with that assessment, and I think that is where you will find the arguments in support of N+A=J.

[Kingmonkey]

On 07/04/2017 at 8:57 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Huh? How so? Incest between Ned and Lyanna would come completely out of left field and have no support leading up to it.

It wouldn't be out of left field at all. There are three big families in the series; Stark, Lannister and Targaryen. Two of these have the brother/sister incest theme going on, why would it be so out of left field for the third one to turn out to as well? We've been told that brother/sister incest produces exemplars of family traits, hence the Targ enthusiasm for it. We see the same thing happening in the case of Joff, who personifies all that is bad in the Lannisters. We have a Stark who's repeatedly described in terms that place him as a Stark exemplar, yet has mystery parentage. 

As I say, I'm an RLJ believer, but if you put on a neutral hat and look into the Starkcest idea, it's actually thematically at least, rather strong. If there is still room for anything other than RLJ, Starkcest is a strong contender.  I wrote a devil's advocate argument for it here:

The point about working thematically can be summed up rather succinctly thus (from the essay linked above):

Quote

Three main characters: Jon, Tyrion, Dany.

Dany: Mother died giving birth to her. Both parents were Targaryens.

Tyrion: Mother died giving birth to him. Both parents were Lannisters.

Jon: Mother died giving him. Both parents were... wait, what?

 

[Shmedricko]

14 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Three main characters: Jon, Tyrion, Dany.

Dany: Mother died giving birth to her. Both parents were Targaryens.

Tyrion: Mother died giving birth to him. Both parents were Lannisters.

Jon: Mother died giving him. Both parents were... wait, what?

I think this symmetry is more likely:

Three main families: Targaryen, Lannister, Stark.

Three main characters: Dany, Tyrion, Jon.

Dany: Targaryen mother died giving birth to her. Father was a Targaryen.

Tyrion: Lannister mother died giving birth to him. Father was a Targaryen. (A+J=T)

Jon: Stark mother died giving birth to him. Father was a Targaryen. (R+L=J)

Three heads of the dragon.

[maudisdottir]

It would be completely out of left field. There is nothing in any of Ned's thoughts to indicate he was OK with incest, let alone indulged in it himself and had been living with the secret. It's clear that the Targaryens are a special case, and the Lannisters are a huge scandal and an abomination.

There's no thread of incest linking the three families, not in the books I've read anyway. To concede it's not impossible is a long way from claiming it's thematically strong.

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

It wouldn't be out of left field at all. There are three big families in the series; Stark, Lannister and Targaryen. Two of these have the brother/sister incest theme going on, why would it be so out of left field for the third one to turn out to as well? We've been told that brother/sister incest produces exemplars of family traits, hence the Targ enthusiasm for it. We see the same thing happening in the case of Joff, who personifies all that is bad in the Lannisters. We have a Stark who's repeatedly described in terms that place him as a Stark exemplar, yet has mystery parentage. 

As I say, I'm an RLJ believer, but if you put on a neutral hat and look into the Starkcest idea, it's actually thematically at least, rather strong. If there is still room for anything other than RLJ, Starkcest is a strong contender.  I wrote a devil's advocate argument for it here:

The point about working thematically can be summed up rather succinctly thus (from the essay linked above):

 

Incest between Ned and Lyanna would come out of nowhere. There is no hint of it, no groundwork laid for it, no case for it. The incest which does exist in the books does not translate to support for incest between Ned and Lyanna, anymore than it translates to support for incest between Edmure and Cat, or any other siblings who just happen to exist in a world where incest is or was practiced by Valyrians, Targaryens, Craster, and the current Lannisters. The supposed theme of Dany, Tyrion, and Jon being born of incest falls apart immediately, as Tyrion was not born of incest, and both his parents being Lannisters can't be spun as incest, nor as indicating that the third main character, Jon, was born of incest. I say all this with my neutral hat on. 

[JNR]

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Incest between Ned and Lyanna would come out of nowhere.

I would be quite surprised too, but this is not really Kingmonkey's theory.  He suggests as possible candidates:

Quote

1. Benjen. Closest ties to Lyanna, unknown whereabouts at the time, mysteriously sent to the wall. 72.1%
2. Eddard. Would explain his guilt, but a narrow window of opportunity. 24.3%
3. Brandon. Most sexually active as far as we know, but somewhat dead at the time. 3.6%

 

[maudisdottir]

Benjen, who was no more than 12 or so when Lyanna disappeared? Sorry, but the Wolf Maid was not doing it with her adolescent little brother. Where is the evidence, or even a hint?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 1/26/2017 at 3:09 PM, HaeSuse said:

All I'm saying is.... Aegon killed a Qhorin with Blackfyre. Jon killed a Qhorin with Longclaw. Blackfyre went on to be the symbol of a NEW HOUSE, eventually, the Blackfyres. Why can't Longclaw go on to be the symbol of yet ANOTHER new house? Someone drew a parallel between Aegon/Blackfyre and Jon/Longclaw. I extended that parallel to go past the Qhorin/valyrian comparison, to ask the question (which I thought the parallel blatantly begged):

 

"If a Valyrian Steel sword which killed a Qhorin went on to be the namesake and symbol of a House (Aegon/Blackfyre).... then why can't a Valyrian Steel sword which killed a Qhorin (Jon/Longclaw) go on to form some other House?"

 

Well, Jon was sorta halfhanded with his burnt hand when he killed the Halfhand. And he did so with his bastard sword a.k.a. a hand and a half sword. Half a hand. And Tyrion gave him some good advice and became Jon's friend. Tyrion was a half-Hand. Get it? And Jon's "father" was the Hand who got beheaded, so.... another half-Hand?

Anyway, while I'm not into RLJ the Blackfyre bastard status thing could be interesting if Jon created the new House, "Snowfyre"

[Kingmonkey]

13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

It would be completely out of left field. There is nothing in any of Ned's thoughts to indicate he was OK with incest, let alone indulged in it himself and had been living with the secret. It's clear that the Targaryens are a special case, and the Lannisters are a huge scandal and an abomination.

 

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Incest between Ned and Lyanna would come out of nowhere. There is no hint of it, no groundwork laid for it, no case for it. The incest which does exist in the books does not translate to support for incest between Ned and Lyanna, anymore than it translates to support for incest between Edmure and Cat, or any other siblings who just happen to exist in a world where incest is or was practiced by Valyrians, Targaryens, Craster, and the current Lannisters. The supposed theme of Dany, Tyrion, and Jon being born of incest falls apart immediately, as Tyrion was not born of incest, and both his parents being Lannisters can't be spun as incest, nor as indicating that the third main character, Jon, was born of incest. I say all this with my neutral hat on. 

Guys, read the linked essay. 

There's nothing in any of Ned's thoughts to indicate that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna either. If you think there aren't things being hidden from us in Ned's thoughts, you can't believe in RLJ either. What we have is Ned's actions. How does Ned react on learning the huge scandal and abomination by his hated foes? With sympathy and mercy. This is addressed in the essay.

Edmure and Cat are Tullys. We're being told a story about the Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens. The other families are background. Incest is a part of the pattern with two out of those three houses, why not the third? This is addressed in the essay too.

As for Tyrion not being born of incest, right. His parents were cousins -- he's like Ned & Lyanna in that, not like Dany and Joffrey -- and if Starkcest is true, Jon. Yes, it's Joff who's the Lannister exemplar. Which given the nature of that house, turns out to be a problem. The self-defeating collapse of House Lannister is part of the story we're being told, it's why this isn't A Song of Ice and Fire and Lions. The Lannister half-man is only half-exemplar. The true Lannister Kwisatz Haderach (cf. Dune)  is out of the picture already. And yep, it's in the essay.

I'm not expecting you to be swayed by this theory. After all, I'm not. However it does make sense, and follows from observation. There are lots of fairly central things in the books that could, with hindsight, be seen to point towards Starkcest. And that's what it takes to pass that "duh" test. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We're being told a story about the Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens. The other families are background. Incest is a part of the pattern with two out of those three houses, why not the third? This is addressed in the essay too.

Why indeed. The Targs and the Lannisters are famously blonde, so why couldn't the Starks be, too? No reason, really. They could be. Are they? Instead of theorizing about possibilities, you should just go and find a bunch of blonde Starks.

The Targs have practiced brotherfucking openly and proudly since always. The Lannisters do not, Jaime and Cersei's twincest is an abomination and a fiercely guarded secret. And the Starks? You talk about patterns. Well, to have that, you need to find and show us a bunch of incest-practicing Starks. "I know of none, but if we assume without proof that there's one case, then there'll be this one case" does not constitute what most people call a "pattern".

[Ygrain]

Couldn't agree more. The twincest is an exception, not a pattern, and one house out of three is not a pattern, either.

[maudisdottir]

But we don't only hear of Rhaegar and Lyanna in Ned's thoughts. Various other people refer to them, enough to make it apparent that they were associated somehow at the beginning of the war. If we never eavesdropped on Ned having Lyanna flashbacks, we would still hear about R+L from Barristan and Cersei and Bran etc.

How would we know of Ned's incestuous leanings, or even suspicions about his other siblings, if not from his own thoughts?

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

 

Guys, read the linked essay. 

There's nothing in any of Ned's thoughts to indicate that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna either. If you think there aren't things being hidden from us in Ned's thoughts, you can't believe in RLJ either. What we have is Ned's actions. How does Ned react on learning the huge scandal and abomination by his hated foes? With sympathy and mercy. This is addressed in the essay.

Edmure and Cat are Tullys. We're being told a story about the Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens. The other families are background. Incest is a part of the pattern with two out of those three houses, why not the third? This is addressed in the essay too.

As for Tyrion not being born of incest, right. His parents were cousins -- he's like Ned & Lyanna in that, not like Dany and Joffrey -- and if Starkcest is true, Jon. Yes, it's Joff who's the Lannister exemplar. Which given the nature of that house, turns out to be a problem. The self-defeating collapse of House Lannister is part of the story we're being told, it's why this isn't A Song of Ice and Fire and Lions. The Lannister half-man is only half-exemplar. The true Lannister Kwisatz Haderach (cf. Dune)  is out of the picture already. And yep, it's in the essay.

I'm not expecting you to be swayed by this theory. After all, I'm not. However it does make sense, and follows from observation. There are lots of fairly central things in the books that could, with hindsight, be seen to point towards Starkcest. And that's what it takes to pass that "duh" test. 

We don't require Ned's thoughts to indicate that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna. We have Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark explicitly stating that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. We may have reason to question that portrayal of their relationship, but the point is that the author explicitly introduces and reiterates the idea that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna in the very first book of the series.

And though they do not explicitly speak of sex, the way that Barristan, Dany, and Viserys go on about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna only presents a different portrayal of the nature of the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but does nothing to dispel the idea that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna.

Edmure and Cat, like Lyanna and her brother(s), are siblings who merely exist in a world where Targaryens and Valyrians regularly practiced incest over centuries and millennia, and where a single pair of Lannister twins practice incest. The existence of incest elsewhere in the story does not make up for the total absence of hints of incest between Stark siblings.

The "pattern" of being born to incestuous parents falls apart immediately. Dany's parents and grandparents were incestuous. Tyrion's parents are cousins, and only his twin siblings are incestuous. Pattern dead. If Jon turns out to be Rhaegar's son, then his paternal grandparents and great-grandparents, ancestors he would share with Daenerys, were incestuous. But, like Tyrion, not his parents.

[SFDanny]

13 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Guys, read the linked essay. 

Kingmonkey, I'm not going to bore you with repeating my thoughts on this essay, but I did want to say something about one part of which is quoted previously by JNR.

Quote

1. Benjen. Closest ties to Lyanna, unknown whereabouts at the time, mysteriously sent to the wall. 72.1%
2. Eddard. Would explain his guilt, but a narrow window of opportunity. 24.3%
3. Brandon. Most sexually active as far as we know, but somewhat dead at the time. 3.6%

You know I appreciate your approach to these discussions, but I don't know if I've told you how much in awe I am of the precision in which you calculate the odds for each Stark. Although, Rickard is left out here. Is that because his odds are so close to zero as to be indistinguishable from nothing? Or are you just rounding to the nearest tenth of one percent? Could I hope that you calculated Rickard to less than .01% probability? 

[wolfmaid7]

6 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But we don't only hear of Rhaegar and Lyanna in Ned's thoughts. Various other people refer to them, enough to make it apparent that they were associated somehow at the beginning of the war. If we never eavesdropped on Ned having Lyanna flashbacks, we would still hear about R+L from Barristan and Cersei and Bran etc.

How would we know of Ned's incestuous leanings, or even suspicions about his other siblings, if not from his own thoughts?

But again these people have no first hand knowledge.These are thoughts floating around with no one being able to give anything other than shallow musings.

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

We don't require Ned's thoughts to indicate that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna. We have Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark explicitly stating that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. We may have reason to question that portrayal of their relationship, but the point is that the author explicitly introduces and reiterates the idea that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna in the very first book of the series.

And though they do not explicitly speak of sex, the way that Barristan, Dany, and Viserys go on about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna only presents a different portrayal of the nature of the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but does nothing to dispel the idea that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna.

Edmure and Cat, like Lyanna and her brother(s), are siblings who merely exist in a world where Targaryens and Valyrians regularly practiced incest over centuries and millennia, and where a single pair of Lannister twins practice incest. The existence of incest elsewhere in the story does not make up for the total absence of hints of incest between Stark siblings.

The "pattern" of being born to incestuous parents falls apart immediately. Dany's parents and grandparents were incestuous. Tyrion's parents are cousins, and only his twin siblings are incestuous. Pattern dead. If Jon turns out to be Rhaegar's son, then his paternal grandparents and great-grandparents, ancestors he would share with Daenerys, were incestuous. But, like Tyrion, not his parents.

Absent forensic evidence what Robert and Bran said can't be taken as proof of sex via rape.If we look at Robert's statement to Ned it isn't what he "knows as fact".Anyone would think if a man kidnaps another's betrothed what else would he think but the intent is rape?Surely,Robert wouldn't be thinking the intent is to play Chess.

Its the same reason some underline thought is Rhaegar ran off with her because he loved her.For why else would any man do that?

No one is thinking romance may have nothing at all to do with entire thing.

 

[Ygrain]

A slight reminder, from GRRM himself, speaking about how the realm plunged into chaos:

 

Without dragons, it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos.

 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

A slight reminder, from GRRM himself, speaking about how the realm plunged into chaos:

 

Without dragons, it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos.

 

 

GRRM isn't canon! 

[wolfmaid7]

4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GRRM isn't canon! 

Doesn't negate what i said.His statement is true to what the realm believes.

[JNR]

Quote

King Aerys had named him Hand and given him an army, and he meant to prove himself worthy of that trust, of Rhaegar's love.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Absent forensic evidence what Robert and Bran said can't be taken as proof of sex via rape.If we look at Robert's statement to Ned it isn't what he "knows as fact".Anyone would think if a man kidnaps another's betrothed what else would he think but the intent is rape?Surely,Robert wouldn't be thinking the intent is to play Chess.

Its the same reason some underline thought is Rhaegar ran off with her because he loved her.For why else would any man do that?

No one is thinking romance may have nothing at all to do with entire thing.

 

You missed the point.

The idea that that there was sexual intercourse between Rhaegar and Lyanna is explicitly introduced by the author in the very first book via the belief of Robert and Bran that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

I don't believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna, and I certainly don't believe Robert's and Bran's belief proves that he did. The point is that the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sexual intercourse is something we know characters in the books believe.

The idea that Lyanna had sex with any of her siblings is not only never introduced via any characters, it is never even hinted at in any way. To compare this idea, which is neither stated nor hinted at, to the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex, which characters in the books state and believe, is absurd.