J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.163

398 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Goes with the black suit. I've played this mummers game myself.

I suppose it makes him more dashing for the camera considering his natural hair color is dark brown.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's right. The wiki says Jon has dark brown hair and points to Bran I in Got.  In that chapter, he's only described by Bran as 'dark' compared to Robb and having Stark facial features by Tyrion and Arya. Sansa describes Arya as looking like Jon and that Arya also has the Stark's brown hair.  The wording is ambiguous; however, Sansa is griping about Arya, so in that context, she is specifically talking about Arya's features and coloring.  Ned says Arya looks like Lyanna.  So that might imply that Jon also looks like Lyanna. A specific description of Jon's hair color is missing in the text.  So it's curious that Kit Harrington came to his audition with a black wig and was later asked to dye his hair black.

The quote aside, if a person is described as a spitting image of someone whose hair is brown, then the person's hair is brown, as well, or else such a crucial difference in appearance would have been mentioned.

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The quote aside, if a person is described as a spitting image of someone whose hair is brown, then the person's hair is brown, as well, or else such a crucial difference in appearance would have been mentioned.

I looked for a description of his hair and found it odd that there didn't seem to be one until Schmendrick provided the text. I'm still not convinced that Jon is the son Rhaeger considering the lack of silver hair and purple eyes if that's the benchmark.  Unless we are arguing that genetics does play a role.  I assume it does.  That the gold gives way to black is a comment about light haired women doesn't necessarily point to the same outcome with the Stark bloodline.  Unless there is a record of that same comparison for Baratheon and Stark.  I'm not sure there is one.  The only thing I'm convinced of is that Lyanna is Jon's mother.

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I looked for a description of his hair and found it odd that there didn't seem to be one until Schmendrick provided the text. I'm still not convinced that Jon is the son Rhaeger considering the lack of silver hair and purple eyes if that's the benchmark.  Unless we are arguing that genetics does play a role.  I assume it does.  That the gold gives way to black is a comment about light haired women doesn't necessarily point to the same outcome with the Stark bloodline.  Unless there is a record of that same comparison for Baratheon and Stark.  I'm not sure there is one.  The only thing I'm convinced of is that Lyanna is Jon's mother.

It isn't given the numerous examples we have of known Targs lacking those features.

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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I looked for a description of his hair and found it odd that there didn't seem to be one until Schmendrick provided the text. I'm still not convinced that Jon is the son Rhaeger considering the lack of silver hair and purple eyes if that's the benchmark.  Unless we are arguing that genetics does play a role.  I assume it does.  That the gold gives way to black is a comment about light haired women doesn't necessarily point to the same outcome with the Stark bloodline.  Unless there is a record of that same comparison for Baratheon and Stark.  I'm not sure there is one.  The only thing I'm convinced of is that Lyanna is Jon's mother.

Ninjaed by Consigliere. Besides, Rhaegar's own daughter had the Dornish colouring, so I don't see why the guy who has already sired one non-Targ looking kid shouldn't sire another. 

The record most likely doesn't exist but it doesn't really matter. It's not just the hair, though it is most obvious, but Robert's children also have his blue eyes and generally look like him. It has been mentioned many times throughout the books and it has been made a plot point. It is inconceivable that we should get another secret Robert baby without any of those looks or any other additional traits that could be traced to Robert.

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13 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It isn't given the numerous examples we have of known Targs lacking those features.

We still have no comparison between Baratheon and Stark or do we?  Regardless, it's still a genetics dice roll.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

We still have no comparison between Baratheon and Stark or do we?  Regardless, it's still a genetics dice roll.

We have a record of Stark brown yielding to Tully auburn four times out of five, and auburn is the colour which yield to Baratheon black.

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Ninjaed by Consigliere. Besides, Rhaegar's own daughter had the Dornish colouring, so I don't see why the guy who has already sired one non-Targ looking kid shouldn't sire another. 

The record most likely doesn't exist but it doesn't really matter. It's not just the hair, though it is most obvious, but Robert's children also have his blue eyes and generally look like him. It has been mentioned many times throughout the books and it has been made a plot point. It is inconceivable that we should get another secret Robert baby without any of those looks or any other additional traits that could be traced to Robert.

I'm not buying it.  There are seven known Baratheon bastards and Varys knows of one other who is unnamed.  Martin gives the readers the ultimate clue when Sansa tells Ned she will produce golden haired sons . Even though Sansa doesn't realize it; lightening strikes and Ned says it's his kids who give us the answers about heritage.  Arya does the same thing when she overhears Illyrio and Varys talking about Ned having one bastard and the book.  Arya gives us the answer.  The Bastard is Jon.  Martin smothers it in the same way by having Ned too distracted to hear Arya and with a conversation between Varys and Illyrio out of context.  

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28 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/

Apologies if this has been already posted, but grrm called Rhae Rhae a "love struck prince" ;)

 

apprarently he can not say "a prophecy driven prince who wanted to get three dragon heads to save the world from ice-zombies", therefore he gave an answer already in the book which was given by many people like Barristsn, Dany and Viserys and even Cersei and Kevan "Rhaegar loved lyanna and thousands died for it". 

Edited by purple-eyes

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54 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/

Apologies if this has been already posted, but grrm called Rhae Rhae a "love struck prince" ;)

 

Ahh, another SSM that's hinting stronger of Rhaegar married for duty (Elia) as well as married for love (Lyanna), is ringing ever true.

He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Jon pledged his vows before the old gods in front of a weirwood, just like his Father.

**Remember that Ned married Cat in a double pledging of vows with Jon and Lysa before a Septon in Riverrun.

**GRRM correlates Jon's pledge not of his "Father", Ned, but his true Father, Rhaegar, who mostlikely pledged before a weirwood.  Although, he could very well may have add a certain wandering septon near by.

Edited by IceFire125

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In the real world you would be absolutely correct, but this is GRRM's world and the Baratheon "black of hair" business is such a major plot device that there is no way GRRM can turn around and say "except..." 

 

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Besides, it would go even against fantasy genetics: Baratheon black trumps all the light colours (not sure what honey hair looks like, some kinds of honey are pretty dark), but it somehow gets trumped by Stark brown, which itself gets easily trumped by Tully auburn, i.e. light colour? Doesn't make any sense.

Plus, as said above, if a theory requires extensive adjustments, such as characters not being who they are or a different age and the like, there's something obviously wrong with it.

 

7 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Baratheon black always wins out over Lannister golden, but that doesn't say anything about any hair colours. However, AGOT also establishes that all of Robert's children (that Eddard knows of) are black of hair (Gendry, Mya, Barra, etc.), and ACOK and ASOS further indicate this (Edric, Bella). So while the "Bartheon black wins out over Lannister golden" says nothing about any potential result from a Baratheon-Stark union, Robert's bastard children, and them all being black of hair, is an important clue as to why Joffrey and his siblings are not black-haired. The fact that a Baratheon-Lannister union should, based on previous marriages, have resulted in a black-haired child, further backs it up. 

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

It would be strange, however, to draw the same conclusion if Eddard had been aware of a bastard child of Robert without the black hair. Because if Robert can have one child who does not posses the black hair, why couldn't he have more?

See, I asked for more information and I quickly got three very, very good responses. I don't disagree with any of it. It is a strong clue against this theory and it's something any proponent has to answer. My only point is in order for this alone to be proof the theory doesn't work we need some examples of Stark Baratheon unions and the descriptions of their children. I don't think there are any. Given the reaction of the Starks to the Targaryens trying to force a Arryn marriage between the two houses and the Stark family tree we do have, I think it very, very unlikely that such a marriage took place. That doesn't mean all the above isn't true. I think it is.

But this isn't the only thing working against this theory. There are major timeline issues. There is evidence that Lyanna did not want the marriage to Robert. There is the very big problem of why would Ned not simply tell Robert that Jon is his son? Add this observation about the coloring of Robert's children that we know of, and what one has is a huge, huge amount of obstacles to overcome even without the absurd rewrite of the history we do know, based on nothing, but that the author insists on incorporating into the basic theory (Rhaegar not kidnapping Lyanna, Rhaella not going to Dragaonstone, Dany not being Dany, etc. etc.) and what you have is a total unbelievable mess.

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I have a question for those who spent more time in the heresy threads than I have (I have spent only a little time there but have picked up a certain amount of the arguments over time in other places as well).  My question is this: how does Robert as Jon's father serve the plot? I think it is pretty clear how Rhaegar as Jon's father could affect the plot (I can go into detail if anyone desires, but I suspect anyone spending time in this thread knows the list), but I don't think I have a clear idea how Robert as Jon's father would work regarding the plot.

The point of Jon as Robert's son is unclear to me. He would be a bastard, so not really in line for Baratheon throne -- and Gendry is older in any respect.  Maybe if Joffrey has lived, it could have resulted in a confrontation of bastard real son vs. "legit" but not real son -- but such a confrontation with Tommen (who is about 10, I think) is more or less pointless.

So the "big secret" of who are Jon's parents leads to what? What is the theory?

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1 hour ago, Moondancer said:

https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/

Apologies if this has been already posted, but grrm called Rhae Rhae a "love struck prince" ;)

 

GRRM could have said "reckless prince" but he chose "love struck" instead. At a minimum, I think it strongly suggests that Rhaegar went into hiding with Lyanna as a result of his love for her. I am not sure it means he originally "kidnapped" her (or "saved her" from arrest -- or whatever really happened) out of love. But staying away for so long, it seems quite likely -- as apparently confirmed by GRRM's choice of words -- to have been out of love.

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I was genuinely surprised at his choice of words - you know he's tight-lipped about anything regarding those two. Maybe we should thank the tequila for it? :)

 

In your face,prophecy truthers!:) 

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In addition to the Baratheon hair color thing we have evidence of at least one Baratheon-Targaryen descendant, Princess Rhaenys, the granddaughter of the Old King, who had silver-gold hair and purple eyes (and two children and two granddaughters with prototypical Valyrian features) despite the fact that her mother was Jocelyn Baratheon.

That suggests that a dose of Valyrian genes can survive and resurface within the Baratheon line despite the fact that the Durrandon legacy is very strong there (Jocelyn Baratheon herself had a Targaryen descendant as mother, Alyssa Velaryon).

And we should also keep in mind that we have no idea how Robert's grandmother Princess Rhaelle looked like. Came she after her father like Jaehaerys II, Daeron, and possibly Shaera, or was she dark-haired and black-eyed as Prince Duncan and her mother Betha were? If she came after the latter it makes sense that no children of Lord Steffon look like Targaryens.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We still have no comparison between Baratheon and Stark or do we?  Regardless, it's still a genetics dice roll.

It isn't a dice roll though. The genetics are whatever Martin says they are and ASOIAF genetics have no basis in reality. This is why I consider any theory trying to figure stuff out using real world genetics to be an exercise in futility. At the end of the day, Martin has provided certain information i.e. all recorded Baratheon/Lannister unions resulted in black-haired offspring and Robert Baratheon's known kids had black hair+blue eyes. I firmly believe that this information serves a literary purpose only and the technicalities of genetics never came into it. SFDanny has already highlighted the myriad of other issues with RB+L. In order for this theory to work it requires far too much mental gymnastics and rewriting of the text for my liking.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's right. The wiki says Jon has dark brown hair and points to Bran I in Got.  In that chapter, he's only described by Bran as 'dark' compared to Robb and having Stark facial features by Tyrion and Arya. Sansa describes Arya as looking like Jon and that Arya also has the Stark's brown hair.  The wording is ambiguous; however, Sansa is griping about Arya, so in that context, she is specifically talking about Arya's features and coloring.  Ned says Arya looks like Lyanna.  So that might imply that Jon also looks like Lyanna. A specific description of Jon's hair color is missing in the text.  So it's curious that Kit Harrington came to his audition with a black wig and was later asked to dye his hair black.

To the bolded we do get Jon's hair color in ASOS in Jon IX. 

Here is the sentence. "A gust of wind sent icy trendrils wending through his long brown hair"

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55 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

I was genuinely surprised at his choice of words - you know he's tight-lipped about anything regarding those two. Maybe we should thank the tequila for it? :)

Well, if you write "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", no reason to be tight-lipped about it any longer :-)

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36 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It isn't a dice roll though. The genetics are whatever Martin says they are and ASOIAF genetics have no basis in reality. This is why I consider any theory trying to figure stuff out using real world genetics to be an exercise in futility. At the end of the day, Martin has provided certain information i.e. all recorded Baratheon/Lannister unions resulted in black-haired offspring and Robert Baratheon's known kids had black hair+blue eyes. I firmly believe that this information serves a literary purpose only and the technicalities of genetics never came into it. SFDanny has already highlighted the myriad of other issues with RB+L. In order for this theory to work it requires far too much mental gymnastics and rewriting of the text for my liking.

Yeah, I think it's an exercise in futility and designed that way.  Martin throws spanners in everywhere.  If you want a story; you have make it up.   Why he thought giving Lyanna a crown of roses would end up in anything but war makes me think he's a dingbat.  It doesn't speak well of his judgement as the next king.  Love can't change a man's nature after all.  Lyanna probably ran away from both of them  and never had a kid at all.   If Ned can produce one kid who looks like Lyanna; he can produce another.

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