J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.163

398 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yeah, I think it's an exercise in futility and designed that way.  Martin throws spanners in everywhere.  If you want a story; you have make it up.   Why he thought giving Lyanna a crown of roses would end up in anything but war makes me think he's a dingbat.  It doesn't speak well of his judgement as the next king.  Love can't change a man's nature after all.  Lyanna probably ran away from both of them  and never had a kid at all.   If Ned can produce one kid who looks like Lyanna; he can produce another.

The bolded is exactly how I feel about RB+L. It is just a giant pile of fan fiction.

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2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

The bolded is exactly how I feel about RB+L. It is just a giant pile of fan fiction.

It's ALL fan fiction including RLJ.

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Just now, LynnS said:

It's ALL fan fiction including RLJ.

If you say so. At least R+L=J has basis in the text whereas RB+L makes up alot of stuff that is nowhere to be found in the text, not even hinted at, and in many cases contradicted by the text.

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17 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

If you say so. At least R+L=J has basis in the text whereas RB+L makes up alot of stuff that is nowhere to be found in the text, not even hinted at, and in many cases contradicted by the text.

Oh baloney.  It can be shoe horned to come out whatever way you want.

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YEAH!! stop shoehorning, you RLJers!! How dare you not giving equal weight of beliefs to "alternatives". LOL!

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5 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

YEAH!! stop shoehorning, you RLJers!! How dare you not giving equal weight of beliefs to "alternatives". LOL!

Sarcasm will get you everywhere.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh baloney.  It can be shoe horned to come out whatever way you want.

And the fact that GRRM talks about a love-struck prince is a mere coincidence, undoubtedly.

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Hello All,

This is my first post and I apologize in advance for perhaps the trivial nature of it but...in this link https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/, posted earlier in this thread, I saw the following quote from GRRM  "So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." 

My question, simply, is what was the sneeze?  Assuming everything is listed in chronological order, it may have happened before Aerys II took the throne. 

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8 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Hello All,

This is my first post and I apologize in advance for perhaps the trivial nature of it but...in this link https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/, posted earlier in this thread, I saw the following quote from GRRM  "So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." 

My question, simply, is what was the sneeze?  Assuming everything is listed in chronological order, it may have happened before Aerys II took the throne. 

Jaehaerys II was sickly maybe after catching simple cold that led to sneezing, leading to him heavy with illness and shortness of breath and died.

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51 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Hello All,

This is my first post and I apologize in advance for perhaps the trivial nature of it but...in this link https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/, posted earlier in this thread, I saw the following quote from GRRM  "So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." 

My question, simply, is what was the sneeze?  Assuming everything is listed in chronological order, it may have happened before Aerys II took the throne. 

I think that is referencing Dr. Suess right?

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2 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Hello All,

This is my first post and I apologize in advance for perhaps the trivial nature of it but...in this link https://m.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/, posted earlier in this thread, I saw the following quote from GRRM  "So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." 

My question, simply, is what was the sneeze?  Assuming everything is listed in chronological order, it may have happened before Aerys II took the throne. 

The Great Spring Sickness would be my guess.

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@Ygrain

I consider this to be a meta comment; a reference for a modern reader. Notice how Aerys is megalomaniac and how Bobby is dissolute. This is grrm discussing his work, giving pithy insight. 

Barristan's words are his and his alone.  Same goes for Bran, Cersei, Kevan, Dany, etc. "love struck prince" is a big deal. Made me end my sabbatical from this wretched mobile themed that killed the joy in posting. 

 

As for the "sneeze"  - The Summerhall fires

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43 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

@Ygrain

I consider this to be a meta comment; a reference for a modern reader. Notice how Aerys is megalomaniac and how Bobby is dissolute. This is grrm discussing his work, giving pithy insight. 

Barristan's words are his and his alone.  Same goes for Bran, Cersei, Kevan, Dany, etc. "love struck prince" is a big deal. Made me end my sabbatical from this wretched mobile themed that killed the joy in posting. 

 

As for the "sneeze"  - The Summerhall fires

You think "sneeze" is more likely to describe a fire than a plague?

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4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Jaehaerys II was sickly maybe after catching simple cold that led to sneezing, leading to him heavy with illness and shortness of breath and died.

 

1 hour ago, Moondancer said:

 

As for the "sneeze"  - The Summerhall fires

I assumed IceFire was right here. Moondancer, can you explain why Summerhall?

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I don't think a plague fits a "sneeze".  The Jaehaerys reference, maybe, I see the sickness element, but that just sounds so mundane.. I'd love to hear the Summerhill theory.  When I first saw the word "sneeze" an image came to mind of a dragon sneezing, but I don't think that could be it.

 

.

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6 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

I don't think a plague fits a "sneeze".  The Jaehaerys reference, maybe, I see the sickness element, but that just sounds so mundane.. I'd love to hear the Summerhill theory.  When I first saw the word "sneeze" an image came to mind of a dragon sneezing, but I don't think that could be it.

 

.

Sneeze = sickness. The Great Spring Sickness killed Daeron II, one of the best Targaryen kings, as well as two of his heirs. It was a disaster for the Targaryens.

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2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sneeze = sickness. The Great Spring Sickness killed Daeron II, one of the best Targaryen kings, as well as two of his heirs. It was a disaster for the Targaryens.

You're right that plague could mean sneeze...

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4 hours ago, Moondancer said:

@Ygrain

I consider this to be a meta comment; a reference for a modern reader. Notice how Aerys is megalomaniac and how Bobby is dissolute. This is grrm discussing his work, giving pithy insight. 

Barristan's words are his and his alone.  Same goes for Bran, Cersei, Kevan, Dany, etc. "love struck prince" is a big deal. Made me end my sabbatical from this wretched mobile themed that killed the joy in posting. 

One interesting thing is the impact on theories surrounding the 'abduction'. This certainly suggests that the Prophecy camp is wrong, but it doesn't address what I've always considered the unstated emotional appeal of the Prophecy argument, which is, "why would two people I'm supposed to like do something that had such horrible consequences for so many people"? For many readers, this makes Rhaegar look like - what was it - a 'dingbat' - and Lyanna either a foolish hothead or a naive and manipulated girl.

I've always been inclined to think they loved each other, at least by the end, but one of the helpful reasons for "why run away" is the arrest / intrigue scenario, in which some combination of Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Aerys' / Varys' men meet, either at once or in some sequence, with Rhaegar and Lyanna fleeing for safety to Rhaegar's political stronghold in the South. The Rickard + Brandon response can be explained by miscommunication: if Rhaegar sent a message to Rickard, Brandon, in the Riverlands, might not have known, and acted impulsively on the growing rumors that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna.

The "Love Struck Prince" quote is just as damaging to my own view, I think. In the 'rescue' scenario, they can still fall in love - but as the natural result of close proximity in times of danger. Here we have a quote that seems to imply that Rhaegar shirked his duty at some point because of his feelings, which could definitely strengthen the classic 'abduction' story, even if it gives Rhaegar's character a rather darker twist.

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1 hour ago, velo-knight said:

One interesting thing is the impact on theories surrounding the 'abduction'. This certainly suggests that the Prophecy camp is wrong, but it doesn't address what I've always considered the unstated emotional appeal of the Prophecy argument, which is, "why would two people I'm supposed to like do something that had such horrible consequences for so many people"? For many readers, this makes Rhaegar look like - what was it - a 'dingbat' - and Lyanna either a foolish hothead or a naive and manipulated girl.

I've always been inclined to think they loved each other, at least by the end, but one of the helpful reasons for "why run away" is the arrest / intrigue scenario, in which some combination of Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Aerys' / Varys' men meet, either at once or in some sequence, with Rhaegar and Lyanna fleeing for safety to Rhaegar's political stronghold in the South. The Rickard + Brandon response can be explained by miscommunication: if Rhaegar sent a message to Rickard, Brandon, in the Riverlands, might not have known, and acted impulsively on the growing rumors that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna.

The "Love Struck Prince" quote is just as damaging to my own view, I think. In the 'rescue' scenario, they can still fall in love - but as the natural result of close proximity in times of danger. Here we have a quote that seems to imply that Rhaegar shirked his duty at some point because of his feelings, which could definitely strengthen the classic 'abduction' story, even if it gives Rhaegar's character a rather darker twist.

I don't think there was a contradiction at all.  There's reason for Rhaegar to feel for Lyanna.  He may have first hand knowledge from his Father to capture and kill the tKotLT on sight.  The king declared for all to hear (those that have power and ability to carry out commands) that the knight was the king's enemy.  This goes against the very action he did, crowning her as the QoLaB (for reasons of virtue and valor that befits a knight).  Therefore, Rhaegar, if he didn't harbor love already, would jump as the person to help her and protect her, especially if she was in a desperate state and ask the prince for that very plea (similar to the situation when Alys pleaded with Jon) to provide her protection and an escape.

The prophecy may indeed already took hold the moment Rhaegar took Lyanna into his protection, however, I don't think he was on the onset, raining Lyanna with "prophecy" talks at all.

Lets look what Jon thought when he was contemplating his and Ygritte's situation, to which I believe was the process of thoughts that went through Rhaegar's mind.

And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him assuming she would go, which was far from certain well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. - ASOS Jon VI.

**Rhaegar had to take/steal/abduct Lyanna.

**If he abandoned Lyanna to return to his duty (back to Elia; obeying the kings command to bring/or kill the Knight of the Laughing Tree would lead to Lyanna's death).

**GRRM used TWO ELIPSES (...); this is the part where Rhaegar may have brought up the idea of marriage to Lyanna (knowing the history that King Aegon V couldn't do anything to Duncan with Jenny and Jaehaerys II and Shaera).  The second elipse (...) may indicate that Lyanna probably didn't agree at first.  However, ultimately, the two pledged their vows in front of a weirwood tree.  Marriage would put Lyanna under Rhaegar's protection (this would tie up the 3KGs to acknowledge that Lyanna is "royalty", thus any child she carries with Rhaegar is legitimate).

**Rhaegar knew that he and Lyanna are marked.  He must find a way to resolve this, but it cannot be where Lyanna is sent back to Winterfell or him going back to the Red Keep where questions will be asked about Lyanna.  He decided to go into hiding.  

 

Edited by IceFire125

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2 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

You're right that plague could mean sneeze...

Atishoo - atishoo, we all fall down

Last line of a well-known English nursery rhyme supposedly [but probably apocryphally] referencing the Black Death plague

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