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The Importance of Numbers


Reine

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I'm looking into the importance of numbers in ASOIAF. Especially the numbers 3, 7 and 12. In our world we have a christian god with three aspects (Father/ Son/ Holy Spririt), in ASOIAF we have a god with seven aspects (Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone) or the seven members of the Kingsguard but three is important with Dany (dragon heads, prophecies, etc.), Patchface and others. Seven in our world is loaded with mythological, legendary, religious and even historical meaning. And twelve is similarily important (twelve olympic gods, months, knights of the round table, highest number you can count with one hand, etc.) but I haven't found anything equally meaningful in ASOIAF (besides years/ ages of a person, which isn't that great). Has anyone found anything interesting? Or do you find other numbers important?

3: Three Heads of the Dragon, Patchface's mumblings, Dany's prophecies

7: Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone, Kingsguard

12: ???

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4 minutes ago, Reine said:

I'm looking into the importance of numbers in ASOIAF. Especially the numbers 3, 7 and 12. In our world we have a christian god with three aspects (Father/ Son/ Holy Spririt), in ASOIAF we have a god with seven aspects (Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone) or the seven members of the Kingsguard but three is important with Dany (dragon heads, prophecies, etc.), Patchface and others. Seven in our world is loaded with mythological, legendary, religious and even historical meaning. And twelve is similarily important (twelve olympic gods, months, knights of the round table, highest number you can count with one hand, etc.) but I haven't found anything equally meaningful in ASOIAF (besides years/ ages of a person, which isn't that great). Has anyone found anything interesting? Or do you find other numbers important?

3: Three Heads of the Dragon, Patchface's mumblings, Dany's prophecies

7: Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone, Kingsguard

12: ???

The Last Hero has a dozen companions.

 

Edit: Also Welcome to the Forum!

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Hi @Reine and welcome!  :)

The number 9, which to the best of my knowledge no-one has 'solved' yet -- although it's a sacred number in the tradition of  Norse mythology upon which GRRM is basing much of his archetypal backbone -- is frequently reiterated in a number of contexts, of which I'll touch on a few.  It's also a multiple of the sacred number three: thus 3 times 3 = 9.

Your or anyone else's thoughts on these quotes, particularly on why GRRM is relating the crown of the King(s) of Winter to the circle of weirwoods in the Haunted Forest, would be appreciated.  Notice how the bronze circle and black iron spikes recapitulate the tree circle.  Bronze is the maester's link for astronomy (which may be significant in light of prevailing speculations that the human greenseers may have orchestrated the explosion of a moon triggering a cataclysmic meteor shower ushering in the last Long Night).  Black iron is the link for ravenry (again with implications for the greenseers, Children of the forest, 'old gods' forces).  Regular iron would be the link for warcraft.  The runes inscribed on the circle indicate some magical spells are woven into the crown, and by analogy the weirwood circle representing the council or coterie of greenseers.  

Above all, circles are associated with GRRM's meditations on the nature of time, inevitability, and where that leaves us in terms of possible windows of redemption.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran hated being crippled then. "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he'd hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

"It is time," Lord Brynden said.

Nine is also undoubtedly a nod to one of GRRM's favorite authors JRRT (Tolkien) and arguable literary 'father-figure' in terms of being one of the all-time greats preceding him in the fantasy genre:

The Ring of Power, from which I invite you to draw your conclusions:

Quote

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

This reads like an invocation, a binding and summoning spell, with interesting implications in terms of the weirwood and crown dynamic.

Compare:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

with:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

Perhaps it was all in the knowing. They had ridden past the end of the world; somehow that changed everything. Every shadow seemed darker, every sound more ominous. The trees pressed close and shut out the light of the setting sun. A thin crust of snow cracked beneath the hooves of their horses, with a sound like breaking bones. When the wind set the leaves to rustling, it was like a chilly finger tracing a path up Jon's spine. The Wall was at their backs, and only the gods knew what lay ahead.

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

When they entered the grove, Samwell Tarly turned slowly looking at each face in turn. No two were quite alike. "They're watching us," he whispered. "The old gods."

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

His body had played the part eagerly enough. His lips on hers, his hand sliding under her doeskin shirt to find a breast, his manhood stiffening when she rubbed her mound against it through their clothes. My vows, he'd thought, remembering the weirwood grove where he had said them, the nine great white trees in a circle, the carved red faces watching, listening. But her fingers were undoing his laces and her tongue was in his mouth and her hand slipped inside his smallclothes and brought him out, and he could not see the weirwoods anymore, only her.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Ahead he glimpsed a pale white trunk that could only be a weirwood, crowned with a head of dark red leaves. Jon Snow reached back and pulled Longclaw from his sheath. He looked to right and left, gave Satin and Horse a nod, watched them pass it on to the men beyond. They rushed the grove together, kicking through drifts of old snow with no sound but their breathing. Ghost ran with them, a white shadow at Jon's side.

The weirwoods rose in a circle around the edges of the clearing. There were nine, all roughly of the same age and size. Each one had a face carved into it, and no two faces were alike. Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him. In the deepening glow their eyes looked black, but in daylight they would be blood-red, Jon knew. Eyes like Ghost's.

The fire in the center of the grove was a small sad thing, ashes and embers and a few broken branches burning slow and smoky. Even then, it had more life than the wildlings huddled near it. Only one of them reacted when Jon stepped from the brush. That was the child, who began to wail, clutching at his mother's ragged cloak. The woman raised her eyes and gasped. By then the grove was ringed by rangers, sliding past the bone-white trees, steel glinting in black-gloved hands, poised for slaughter.

Note the ambiguity in the last sentence whereby the 'steel glinting in black-gloved hands, poised for slaughter' might be taken to qualify the immediately preceding phrase instead of the one before that, i.e. referring to the 'trees' as warriors just as much as the 'rangers.'  There is a definite parallel drawn between the rangers with their upraised steel swords, the trees, the greenseers, and the iron spikes representing the Kings of Winter.  What are we to make of this?

Finally, note several unsettling allusions to human sacrifice -- the moon as a sickle (bronze sickles were used to sacrifice people to trees), the iron spikes evoking disembodied heads of beheaded enemies impaled on spikes like scarecrows, and in the last passage the child in the middle of the sacred circle.  I believe the word 'ragged' is not used here willy-nilly, but represents a deeper 'code' if you like underlying GRRM's mechanism whereby he constructs the narrative.  Tracing the word 'ragged' we may see it has a connection to human sacrifice, e.g. the deserter beheaded in the opening execution in AGOT preceding the gift of the direwolves is described as 'ragged.'  'Ragged' is also an anagram of 'dagger,' in addition to being rooted etymologically in the word 'rag' meaning 'wolf' from which the word 'Ragnarok' is derived, as @Blue Tiger has recently drawn to my attention.  So, we have multiple allusions to some kind of upcoming cataclysmic world-ending event together with human sacrifice.  Why is that connected specifically to the number 9, I can't yet say!

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9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Note the ambiguity in the last sentence whereby the 'steel glinting in black-gloved hands, poised for slaughter' might be taken to qualify the immediately preceding phrase instead of the one before that, i.e. referring to the 'trees' as warriors just as much as the 'rangers.'  There is a definite parallel drawn between the rangers with their upraised steel swords, the trees, the greenseers, and the iron spikes representing the Kings of Winter.  What are we to make of this?

 

I think I've cracked the 'trees as warriors' mystery here.

Regarding the number nine stuff though, I am surprised you did not mention The Old Mother, Samarro Saan, Xhobar Qhoqua, Liomond Lashare, Spotted Tom the Butcher, Ser Derrick Fossoway, Nine Eyes, Alequo Adarys, and Maelys Blackfyre.

... aka, the "Band of Nine." 

Against those Nine Copper Kings rose a young hero that would extinguish black fire, and become armored in white ice

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2 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

I think I've cracked the 'trees as warriors' mystery here.

Regarding the number nine stuff though, I am surprised you did not mention The Old Mother, Samarro Saan, Xhobar Qhoqua, Liomond Lashare, Spotted Tom the Butcher, Ser Derrick Fossoway, Nine Eyes, Alequo Adarys, and Maelys Blackfyre.

... aka, the "Band of Nine." 

Against those Nine Copper Kings rose a young hero that would extinguish black fire, and become armored in white ice

Sorry, I'm not as well versed in these historical details as the rest of you.  Can you elaborate on the identity of the hero?

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Just now, ravenous reader said:

Sorry, I'm not as well versed in these historical details as the rest of you.  Can you elaborate on the identity of the hero?

 

Twas a youth by the name of Barristan. :) 

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2 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Twas a youth by the name of Barristan. :) 

Nice.  So, the black fire = Blackfyre and the white ice = Kingsguard plate armor?  That makes Barristan one of the trees:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran's spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.

But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling. Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry. All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they huddled on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind. "They are here."

The ranger drew his longsword.

 

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11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Nice.  So, the black fire = Blackfyre and the white ice = Kingsguard plate armor?  That makes Barristan one of the trees:

 

 

Just so. :cheers:

These Blackfyre supporters were the Ninepenny kings. And Barristan is not only tree-like, but sun-like, reflective, and snow-like, in my opinion anyway... but I'm not alone:

A Game of Thrones - Bran II 

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I 

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.

A Game of Thrones - Bran III 

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

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@Voice Ah, knew there were better quotes:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

When the last light had faded in the west, behind the sails of the prowling ships on Slaver's Bay, Ser Barristan went back inside, summoned a pair of serving men, and told them to heat some water for a bath. Sparring with his squires in the afternoon heat had left him feeling soiled and sweaty.

The water, when it came, was only lukewarm, but Selmy lingered in the bath until it had grown cold and scrubbed his skin till it was raw. Clean as he had ever been, he rose, dried himself, and clad himself in whites. Stockings, smallclothes, silken tunic, padded jerkin, all fresh-washed and bleached. Over that he donned the armor that the queen had given him as a token of her esteem. The mail was gilded, finely wrought, the links as supple as good leather, the plate enameled, hard as ice and bright as new-fallen snow. His dagger went on one hip, his longsword on the other, hung from a white leather belt with golden buckles. Last of all he took down his long white cloak and fastened it about his shoulders.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Fear drove him to his feet, reeling. Holding his side to staunch the seep of blood from his wound, Varamyr lurched to the door and swept aside the ragged skin that covered it to face a wall of white. Snow. No wonder it had grown so dark and smoky inside. The falling snow had buried the hut.

When Varamyr pushed at it, the snow crumbled and gave way, still soft and wet. Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice. To the south and west the hills were a vast white wilderness where nothing moved except the blowing snow. "Thistle," Varamyr called feebly, wondering how far she could have gone. "Thistle. Woman. Where are you?"

It's lovely exchanging quotes, but what's the connection to the number 9?  There are 7 in the kingsguard!

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

It's lovely exchanging quotes, but what's the connection to the number 9?  There are 7 in the kingsguard!

LOL!

Little and less. :) 

Kidding. No, the connection is not so much to the KG itself as it is to the rise of a hero that cast down the Ninepenny Kings (the "Band of Nine" mentioned above). Nine Copper Kings.

Barristan Selmy rose to fame when he slew Maelys Blackfyre. In doing so, he exterminated House Blackfyre. Pretty cool stuff. Earned Barry his promotion, and, made him the stuff of songs for three-eyed-boys in the ninth year of summer...

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21 minutes ago, Voice said:

LOL!

Little and less. :) 

Kidding. No, the connection is not so much to the KG itself as it is to the rise of a hero that cast down the Ninepenny Kings (the "Band of Nine" mentioned above). Nine Copper Kings.

Barristan Selmy rose to fame when he slew Maelys Blackfyre. In doing so, he exterminated House Blackfyre. Pretty cool stuff. Earned Barry his promotion, and, made him the stuff of songs for three-eyed-boys in the ninth year of summer...

Indeed; that's why he's a 'giant' among the weirwoods!

Perhaps the hero should be understood as the tenth figure, the one who comes along to 'turn the wheel' as it were.  Nine-tenths of something is not 100%, after all, and somehow represents a dynamic 'longing' for completion or impetus tending towards fulfilment.

 I think it was mentioned the Bloodstone Emperor was the 9th and last ruler of the Empire of the Dawn, meaning that the Dawn is concluded and/or is brought in by the action of the 10th figure who overthrows him, ushering in the beginning of a new age.  'So it ends -- so it begins'-- the number 10 effects the change.

For example, Joffrey the corrupt-soon-to-be-overthrown ruler is described as being insufficient to the task 9 tenths of the time, which doesn't bode well for him:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI

Sandor Clegane would have laughed at that, Sansa knew. Other men might have cursed her, warned her to keep silent, even begged for her forgiveness. Ser Meryn Trant did none of these. Ser Meryn Trant simply did not care.

The balcony was deserted save for Sansa. She stood with her head bowed, fighting to hold back her tears, while below Joffrey sat on his Iron Throne and dispensed what it pleased him to call justice. Nine cases out of ten seemed to bore him; those he allowed his council to handle, squirming restlessly while Lord Baelish, Grand Maester Pycelle, or Queen Cersei resolved the matter. When he did choose to make a ruling, though, not even his queen mother could sway him.

This classic by Jaime:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime VII

The Tully garrison departed the next morning, stripped of all their arms and armor. Each man was allowed three days' food and the clothing on his back, after he swore a solemn oath never to take up arms against Lord Emmon or House Lannister. "If you're fortunate, one man in ten may keep that vow," Lady Genna said.

"Good. I'd sooner face nine men than ten. The tenth might have been the one who would have killed me."

"The other nine will kill you just as quick."

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

Whatever its true extent, the southern continent is an unhealthy place, its very air full of foul humors and miasmas. We have already seen how Nymeria fared on its shores, when she attempted to settle her people there. Blood boils, green fever, sweetrot, bronze pate, the Red Death, greyscale, brownleg, wormbone, sailor's bane, pus-eye, and yellowgum are only a few of the diseases found here, many so virulent that they have been known to wipe out whole settlements. Archmaester Ebrose's study of centuries of travelers' accounts suggests that nine of every ten men visiting Sothoryos from Westeros will suffer one or more of these afflictions, and that almost half will die.

If nine of ten suffer afflictions, the implication is the tenth will be the lucky one in terms of vanquishing those afflictions.

Could you briefly remark on the interpretation of this one:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."

"So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy. Be that as it may, our Aemon lacked the Dragonknight's martial nature. He likes to say he had a slow sword but quick wits. Small wonder his grandfather packed him off to the Citadel. He was nine or ten, I believe . . . and ninth or tenth in the line of succession as well."

Was he 9 or 10, 9th or 10th in the succession -- that would appear to be significant!

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19 hours ago, Reine said:

I'm looking into the importance of numbers in ASOIAF. Especially the numbers 3, 7 and 12. In our world we have a christian god with three aspects (Father/ Son/ Holy Spririt), in ASOIAF we have a god with seven aspects (Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone) or the seven members of the Kingsguard but three is important with Dany (dragon heads, prophecies, etc.), Patchface and others. Seven in our world is loaded with mythological, legendary, religious and even historical meaning. And twelve is similarily important (twelve olympic gods, months, knights of the round table, highest number you can count with one hand, etc.) but I haven't found anything equally meaningful in ASOIAF (besides years/ ages of a person, which isn't that great). Has anyone found anything interesting? Or do you find other numbers important?

3: Three Heads of the Dragon, Patchface's mumblings, Dany's prophecies

7: Father/ Warrior/ Smith/ Stranger/ Maid/ Mother/ Crone, Kingsguard

12: ???

Re: 12 

GRRM uses "a dozen" at times to sneak in a "13th" something, 13 being associated with the Night's King.  For example, when Joffrey receives a Valyrian sword as a wedding gift, he asks his wedding guests what he should name the sword.  He hears "a dozen" before he hears one he liked: Widow's Wail.

Other than a dozen + 1, GRRM will also give a long list of things/people.  When Sansa notes the captives swearing fealty to Joffrey after the BotB, Aurane Waters is the thirteenth. 

 By the time all the new knights had been given their sers the hall was growing restive, and none more so than Joffrey. Some of those in the gallery had begun to slip quietly away, but the notables on the floor were trapped, unable to depart without the king's leave. Judging by the way he was fidgeting atop the Iron Throne, Joff would willingly have granted it, but the day's work was far from done. For now the coin was turned over, and the captives were ushered in.

There were great lords and noble knights in that company too: sour old Lord Celtigar, the Red Crab; Ser Bonifer the Good; Lord Estermont, more ancient even than Celtigar; Lord Varner, who hobbled the length of the hall on a shattered knee, but would accept no help; Ser Mark Mullendore, grey-faced, his left arm gone to the elbow; fierce Red Ronnet of Griffin Roost; Ser Dermot of the Rainwood; Lord Willum and his sons Josua and Elyas; Ser Jon Fossoway; Ser Timon the Scrapesword; Aurane, the bastard of Driftmark; Lord Staedmon, called Pennylover; hundreds of others.

 

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Indeed; that's why he's a 'giant' among the weirwoods!

Perhaps the hero should be understood as the tenth figure, the one who comes along to 'turn the wheel' as it were.  Nine-tenths of something is not 100%, after all, and somehow represents a dynamic 'longing' for completion or impetus tending towards fulfilment.

 I think it was mentioned the Bloodstone Emperor was the 9th and last ruler of the Empire of the Dawn, meaning that the Dawn is concluded and/or is brought in by the action of the 10th figure who overthrows him, ushering in the beginning of a new age.  'So it ends -- so it begins'-- the number 10 effects the change.

For example, Joffrey the corrupt-soon-to-be-overthrown ruler is described as being insufficient to the task 9 tenths of the time, which doesn't bode well for him:

This classic by Jaime:

If nine of ten suffer afflictions, the implication is the tenth will be the lucky one in terms of vanquishing those afflictions.

Could you briefly remark on the interpretation of this one:

Was he 9 or 10, 9th or 10th in the succession -- that would appear to be significant!

Very interesting!  I never noticed that. 

Another "10" in the story are the combatants at the Tower of Joy.  Seven vs three.  Also, 9 out of the 10 of these people are now dead, the eight who died that day and Ned. 

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22 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi @Reine and welcome!  :)

The number 9, which to the best of my knowledge no-one has 'solved' yet -- although it's a sacred number in the tradition of  Norse mythology upon which GRRM is basing much of his archetypal backbone -- is frequently reiterated in a number of contexts, of which I'll touch on a few.  It's also a multiple of the sacred number three: thus 3 times 3 = 9.

Your or anyone else's thoughts on these quotes, particularly on why GRRM is relating the crown of the King(s) of Winter to the circle of weirwoods in the Haunted Forest, would be appreciated.  Notice how the bronze circle and black iron spikes recapitulate the tree circle.  Bronze is the maester's link for astronomy (which may be significant in light of prevailing speculations that the human greenseers may have orchestrated the explosion of a moon triggering a cataclysmic meteor shower ushering in the last Long Night).  Black iron is the link for ravenry (again with implications for the greenseers, Children of the forest, 'old gods' forces).  Regular iron would be the link for warcraft.  The runes inscribed on the circle indicate some magical spells are woven into the crown, and by analogy the weirwood circle representing the council or coterie of greenseers.  

Above all, circles are associated with GRRM's meditations on the nature of time, inevitability, and where that leaves us in terms of possible windows of redemption.

Nine is also undoubtedly a nod to one of GRRM's favorite authors JRRT (Tolkien) and arguable literary 'father-figure' in terms of being one of the all-time greats preceding him in the fantasy genre:

The Ring of Power, from which I invite you to draw your conclusions:

This reads like an invocation, a binding and summoning spell, with interesting implications in terms of the weirwood and crown dynamic.

Compare:

with:

Note the ambiguity in the last sentence whereby the 'steel glinting in black-gloved hands, poised for slaughter' might be taken to qualify the immediately preceding phrase instead of the one before that, i.e. referring to the 'trees' as warriors just as much as the 'rangers.'  There is a definite parallel drawn between the rangers with their upraised steel swords, the trees, the greenseers, and the iron spikes representing the Kings of Winter.  What are we to make of this?

Finally, note several unsettling allusions to human sacrifice -- the moon as a sickle (bronze sickles were used to sacrifice people to trees), the iron spikes evoking disembodied heads of beheaded enemies impaled on spikes like scarecrows, and in the last passage the child in the middle of the sacred circle.  I believe the word 'ragged' is not used here willy-nilly, but represents a deeper 'code' if you like underlying GRRM's mechanism whereby he constructs the narrative.  Tracing the word 'ragged' we may see it has a connection to human sacrifice, e.g. the deserter beheaded in the opening execution in AGOT preceding the gift of the direwolves is described as 'ragged.'  'Ragged' is also an anagram of 'dagger,' in addition to being rooted etymologically in the word 'rag' meaning 'wolf' from which the word 'Ragnarok' is derived, as @Blue Tiger has recently drawn to my attention.  So, we have multiple allusions to some kind of upcoming cataclysmic world-ending event together with human sacrifice.  Why is that connected specifically to the number 9, I can't yet say!

I like this. I never had made the link between the iron/bronze crown and the weirwood's grove, but associated with the reference to Tolkien, I wonder about the grove : for example, could we speculate that only 9 'kings' (or members of clans, or families, aso...) received the gift from the children of the forrest, and that they had their greenseer's face here ? something else ? (I have some ideas - this forum is terrific for creativity :D - but they are too speculative for the moment to elaborate a theory or a valuable hypothesis)

The head's metaphore reminds me the golden heads of the golden Compagny. Their return is very interesting (even for the symbolism), consedering the ancient inimity between Bittersteel and Bloodraven (themselves playing a very old inimity between Bracken and Blackwood). I suspect something like that in the very old Stark story (probably at the origin of the Stark, the Wall, and perhaps the Others ?)

 

5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

GRRM uses "a dozen" at times to sneak in a "13th" something, 13 being associated with the Night's King.  For example, when Joffrey receives a Valyrian sword as a wedding gift, he asks his wedding guests what he should name the sword.  He hears "a dozen" before he hears one he liked: Widow's Wail.

Other than a dozen + 1, GRRM will also give a long list of things/people.  When Sansa notes the captives swearing fealty to Joffrey after the BotB, Aurane Waters is the thirteenth. 

I don't know if all mentions of "dozen" are significant in the series, but a dozen survivors came back to the Wall after the Mormont's expedition. A dozen + Sam, or a dozen + Jon, it depends from the point of view ^^ (I prefer Sam's choice in this case, because he was with the Watch at the Fist, and after at Craster's house)

There is also : 

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Magister Illyrio had warned Dany about this too. "A Dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is deemed a dull affair," he had said. Her wedding must have been especially blessed; before the day was over, a dozen men had died. (Daenerys II, AGOT)

Kind of bloody sacrifice. 

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7 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Re: 12 

GRRM uses "a dozen" at times to sneak in a "13th" something, 13 being associated with the Night's King.  For example, when Joffrey receives a Valyrian sword as a wedding gift, he asks his wedding guests what he should name the sword.  He hears "a dozen" before he heard one he liked: Widow's Wail.

I agree that 13 symbolizes death.  At the 'Last Supper' there were 13 people, following which Christ was betrayed by Judas and died.  Applying 'numerological manipulation,' 1+3=4 which is considered with superstition in many Asian cultures -- it's called 'tetraphobia' -- since for example the Chinese character for 'death' is a homonym of that for 'four.'  It's basically a fear of puns (ha ha ;)).

I've found a similar example to your 'Widow's Wail' one, where Cressen himself completes the 'baker's dozen' of seeds -- i.e. he represents the 13th seed or crystal.  His death also accompanies a 'wail' of sorts, with the reedy whistling he emits as he's being suffocated by the effects of the Strangler.  

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

His chambers seemed dim and gloomy after the brightness of the morning. With fumbling hands, the old man lit a candle and carried it to the workroom beneath the rookery stair, where his ointments, potions, and medicines stood neatly on their shelves. On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger. It rattled when he shook it. Cressen blew away a layer of dust and carried it back to his table. Collapsing into his chair, he pulled the stopper and spilled out the vial's contents. A dozen crystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he'd been reading. They shone like jewels in the candlelight, so purple that the maester found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before.

There is a correspondence between the purple color of the crystals and the ensuing color spreading over the face of the victim who has been poisoned by them.  In fact, the death 'growing' from the crystal seed is compared to a plant blooming.  Additionally, there is an echo between the 'rattle' the crystals make and Cressen's death 'rattle' -- GRRM repeats the word 'rattle' twice in this passage, and Cressen's 'death rattle' completes the trio ('thrice-damned').

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 All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

And this very night Lord Stannis would feast his bannermen, his lady wife . . . and the red woman, Melisandre of Asshai.

Symbolically, the occasion is to be Cressen's 'Last Supper'.  

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Very interesting!  I never noticed that. 

Another "10" in the story are the combatants at the Tower of Joy.  Seven vs three.  Also, 9 out of the 10 of these people are now dead, the eight who died that day and Ned. 

Then, applying a little numerological manipulation, we can say the individual digits making up the number 10 can be broken down into 1+0=1.  The 'tenth' is often 'the One' in the sense of either being the saviour hero who unites the shattered kingdom, or the villain who shakes things up. Consider Tolkien's ring of power which I mentioned above -- one ring which governs 9 realms of men, to make up 'ten.'  Analogously, the 9 disparate black iron spikes on the crown of the King of Winter are united by the one bronze 'ring' -- the circlet which fits the head. Summed, the crown represents 9 spikes+1 ring= 10, in other words made into one crown by 'One ring...'

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One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,

You could view the ring or zero as a sign of eternity or immortality; the nine a sign of mortality.  In Shakespeare's Macbeth for example the weird sisters (or wayward sisters, the three witches) curse Macbeth using the power of thrice three, i.e. 9:

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ALL

(dancing together in a circle) 

The weird sisters, hand in hand,

Posters of the sea and land,

Thus do go about, about,

Thrice to thine and thrice to mine

And thrice again, to make up nine.

Peace! The charm’s wound up.

Note, the witches dance in a circle to wind up the charm -- i.e. a ring!

2 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I like this. I never had made the link between the iron/bronze crown and the weirwood's grove, but associated with the reference to Tolkien, I wonder about the grove : for example, could we speculate that only 9 'kings' (or members of clans, or families, aso...) received the gift from the children of the forrest, and that they had their greenseer's face here ? something else ? (I have some ideas - this forum is terrific for creativity :D - but they are too speculative for the moment to elaborate a theory or a valuable hypothesis)

The head's metaphore reminds me the golden heads of the golden Compagny. Their return is very interesting (even for the symbolism), consedering the ancient inimity between Bittersteel and Bloodraven (themselves playing a very old inimity between Bracken and Blackwood). I suspect something like that in the very old Stark story (probably at the origin of the Stark, the Wall, and perhaps the Others ?)

Tell me more about 'the golden heads'?  I'm not familiar with that.

Regarding the weirwood grove, assuming 9 families or 9 greenseers are involved, who would you speculate they are?

P.S.  By the way, I enjoy your creativity and nuance.  You see things others don't.  Looking forward to reading more...

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The number 44 seems to have a sacred connotation. A septry in the Riverlands maintained 44 brothers before the War of the Five Kings. Arya VII, Storm 39. The Eldest Brother counted 44 namedays. Brienne VI, Feast 31. Hugor of the Hill was given 44 sons with the girl brought forth by the Maid. Tyrion II, Dance 5. And Nagga had four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rising from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The Drowned Man, Feast 19. 

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On 9.12.2016 at 10:17 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

The Last Hero has a dozen companions.

 

Edit: Also Welcome to the Forum!

Thank you, so we have a great hero (Last Hero/ Athur), twelve companions/ knights, and even a Excalibur just from another prophecy...

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14 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Tell me more about 'the golden heads'?  I'm not familiar with that.

Traditionnally, when the chief of the Golden Company is dead, his skull is goldened, put upon a spear, and exposed at the door of the chief's tent. A manner to recall all the men the history of the Company and to claim inheritance; and in a more mystic way, to keep the blessing of the "great ancestors" ^^. 

There is a long paragraph about these heads in the first Jon Connington's chapter (ADWD) (where we can also find a clue about the probability that Aegon is a Blackfyre), about death, life and spirits of the dead

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