Pycelles rookie error?

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

He wasn't a brilliant commander. 

Funny that people think then that Robb's remarkable military successes  had something to do with Ned's influence.

[velo-knight]

Just because we don't see Ned in action much doesn't mean he wasn't a brilliant commander. The way JonCon speaks of Ned when reflecting on the Battle of the Bells makes me think most Westerosi consider Lord Eddard at least a dangerous general.

I do think Gray Wind's influence is underestimated when evaluating Robb's prowess as a tactician, but we know Robb was an excellent field commander that inspired loyalty and respect, and he had to get that from somewhere.

[JLE]

Also. In Jaime and Cersei's first overheard conversation - the one where Bran is thrown out of the window - Cersei, a veteran of decades of court intrigue, *fears* Eddard Stark, despite the fact that the latter has been outside of court. Ned is by no means as dumb as it suits Littlefinger to slander him as: given that Cersei does not trust Littlefinger either (in the same conversation).

In the end, in what they saw as desperation, *both* Ned and Cersei gambled unwillingly on Littlefinger - which Littlefinger even drew attention to, "when the queen declares one king and the Hand another, who do the goldcloaks follow? The man who pays them"... and he chose Cersei. Whether this is because of his personal enmity against the Stark family, or because he feared Stannis taking an interest in his financial dealings and finding out *how* Littlefinger was bankrupting the realm, is not clear.)

Littlefinger himself, in talking to Sansa later on, slanders Ned as a "hopeless player", but Cersei worse as "a piece who thinks she is a player". Of course he has plenty of interest in slandering Ned as well - in trying to teach what he believes to be Ned Stark's last living descendant, namely Sansa, to despise every value and principle that Ned had ever held dear, not content with destroying the man he must destroy his reputation, and do so in the eyes of his daughter too. However, the fact that Littlefinger is a master player, largely because few people even know he is playing at all, and *nobody* knows what stakes he might be playing for, doesn't change the fact that Ned had definitely gained an advantage over Cersei and she knew it. He's a good deal better than he's given credit for, but didn't realise that Littlefinger was playing *at all*, let alone for how high the stakes.

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Funny that people think then that Robb's remarkable military successes  had something to do with Ned's influence.

Who are those people? Those same Stark fans who view Ned as a brilliant swordsman? Show me prove from the books, if you have any.

Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind, if anything. We know Whispering Wood was Blackfish's idea, we know he continued to be Robb's close advisor and we actually hear about his reputation as a military commander. And Greywind spotted the way to the Westerlands which made their whole strategy possible. Apart from that, Robb gave Roose command over half his army, which he could indeed have from Ned (the was he guy who trust Littlefinger after all).

[Walda]

14 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Cersei was always treating him poorly, she was never fond of him, we don't see them interact in book 1,

We don't see Cersei treating Maester Pycelle poorly, or saying scathing things about him, or thinking about him at all, until Feast for Crows. While she didn't have a PoV  to think with until Feast For Crows, she thinks things then that make it clear that she used to think of Pycelle with respect, before Tyrion shaved his beard.

Quote

Pycelle had been old as far back as Cersei could remember, but there was a time when he had also been magnificent: richly clad, dignified, exquisitely courteous. His immense white beard had given him an air of wisdom. Tyrion had shaved his beard off, though, and what had grown back was pitiful, a few patchy tufts of thin, brittle hair that did little to hide the loose pink flesh beneath his sagging chin. This is no man, she thought, only the ruins of one. The black cells robbed him of whatever strength he had. That, and the Imp’s razor.(AFfC, Ch.36 Cersei VIII)

And remember, it was Cersei that wrote the royal writ that Lancel carried to Tyrion, ordering him to release Pycelle. We don't know when she started thinking contemptuously about him, but until Tywin's death, Cersei treats Pycelle as an advisor she respects and can trust.

There is no interaction between Cersei and Pycelle in the first half of Game of Thrones, but why would there be? Robert is King, she is his wife, Pycelle is his advisor. Neither she nor her children have any illness that requires his treatment (well, maybe Joffrey has the wound Nymeria gave him inspected and treated by Pycelle off-stage, when he arrives at King's Landing).

When Eddard's broken leg entails frequent visits with Pycelle, he begins to suspect Cersei and Pycelle are in closer communication than they appear:

Quote

I thought you had best know, indeed … as if Cersei had not instructed him to pass along her father’s threats. He hoped his response rattled those perfect teeth of hers (AGoT, Ch.45 Eddard XII)

Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day(AGoT, Ch.45 Eddard XII)

And when Robert dies, Cersei and Pycelle collaborate openly, a perfectly appropriate thing for fellow members of the small council to do.

Quote

Grand Maester Pycelle was seated alone at the council table,...[Varys and Baelish moin him. Joffrey climbs the throne]...while his mother was seated with the council.

...[Joffrey bids Pycelle read 'his' decrees]...

“In the place of the traitor Stannis Baratheon, it is the wish of His Grace that his lady mother, the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister, who has ever been his staunchest support, be seated upon his small council, that she may help him rule wisely and with justice. So the king has decreed. The small council consents.”(AGoT, Ch.57 Sansa V)

From then until the end of Game of Thrones we see them interacting together every time Sansa visits the small council:

Quote

The queen patted her hand. “We will tell you what to write, child. The important thing is that you urge Lady Catelyn and your brother to keep the king’s peace.”
“It will go hard for them if they don’t,” said Grand Maester Pycelle. “By the love you bear them, you must urge them to walk the path of wisdom.”(AGoT, Ch.51 Sansa IV)

“Lord Eddard has not been harmed,” the queen said.
“But … what’s to become of him?”
“That is a matter for the king to decide,” Grand Maester Pycelle announced ponderously.(AGoT, Ch.51 Sansa IV)

The queen sighed. “Sansa, you disappoint me. What did I tell you about traitor’s blood?”
“Your father has committed grave and terrible crimes, my lady,” Grand Maester Pycelle intoned.(AGoT, Ch.57 Sansa V)

Of course, seeing from Sansa's view, we miss the sausage-making side of the Council meeting and see them only when they are acting in concert. And of course, we only see them from Sansa's point of view, as the only other point of view in King's Landing is Eddard, in the black cells.

The only book where we see Cersei and Pycelle positively have each other's backs, is Clash of Kings, but they have interacted before then, and although we don't have any indication of what Cersei thinks of Pycelle from the time he leaves the black cells, until the time Tyrion leaves the black cells, (interestingly, we don't know what Cersei thinks of Pycelle at the Purple wedding - when her boy died before he had even got his potions together) But we see how, during that time, Cersei treats Pycelle with respect. It is only when she learns that Pycelle has seen Tywin's corpse and left before she was woken that she turns on him.

*

13 hours ago, John Doe said:

He wasn't a brilliant commander. 

Where is your evidence for this?

Eddard seems to have been a very successful commander in Robert's Rebellion. I suppose the credit for raising all the banners of the North, while every other force (except the Lannisters) had to deal with divided loyalties, really belongs to his father, his older brother, and the Stark name, rather than his own abilities, but nearly the same could be said for Robb, and once Eddard had rallied his forces he made a decisive difference at the Trident, and got to King's Landing in time to bring Tywin to submission and take the throne in Robert's name.

At that point in time, Pycelle, and a number of Tywin's bannermen, had supposed Tywin would be the King on the Iron Throne, and Eddard would be the one to kneel before him. That is a decisive difference, and from a man who had not been bred for glory in battle (that was his brother Brandon's thing), and was still in his teens, against a seasoned commander like Tywin, well, Tywin must have seen something that persuaded him submission was the better option, not just for the short term.

Then he survived the Tower of Joy, hand to hand combat against the legends of the Kings Guard. I'd say he did pretty well, having himself and one other of his men survive, and none of the Kings Guard.

In putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion, he seemed to have got and kept the upper hand in a sea battle against the Ironborn. In fact, he seems to have demolished Pyke. That's not a bad record. In fact, I don't think we have yet heard of Eddard losing a battle.

While I agree that his son's victories are his own, Catelyn sees a strong resemblance to Ned in the way he goes about planning them:

Quote

She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map...
he’s still his father’s son, and Ned taught him well...
Again like his father; Ned would always take the more dangerous task himself...(AGoT, Ch.55 Catelyn VIII)

One thing I find interesting - Robb's battle style is wily and underhand, guerilla attacks, raids in the darkness, cunning feints...very little of the noble rules of chivalry, or of open warfare on display here. And yet Catelyn is constantly comparing it to Eddard's style - Eddard the battle Commander was not the Warden of the North who prized honour above all else.  Although, when Robb saw the Lannister squires killed in their beds, and (more dubiously) despoiled the Westerling maid in hers, he also prized honour above all else.

ETA: The decision to have Roose Bolton command the army at the Green Fork was made by Robb, after listening to counsel from Catelyn

Quote

“The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I’d give him the honor.”
It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? ...
“Your father is not fearless,” Catelyn pointed out. “He is brave, but that is very different.”
Her son considered that for a moment. “The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell,” he said thoughtfully. “Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don’t want someone fearless, do I?”
“No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage.”
“Roose Bolton,” Robb said at once. “That man scares me.”
“Then let us pray he will scare Tywin Lannister as well.” (AGoT, Ch.55 Catelyn VIII)

That Catelyn played the Eddard card to persuade him to her plan, I don't deny, but it seems a little harsh to blame Eddard for her plan, and her sons, when his plan was to keep Robb at Winterfell and:

Quote

“Once you [Catelyn] are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.” (AGoT, Ch.20 Eddard IV)

The decision for Robb to call his banners and march to Moat Cailin, and thence to war, was made by Robb, against all counsel.

Quote

Maester Luwin counseled Robb to remain at Winterfell, and Bran pleaded with him too, for his own sake as much as Rickon’s, but his brother only shook his head stubbornly and said, “I don’t want to go. I have to.”
It was only half a lie. Someone had to go, to hold the Neck and help the Tullys against the Lannisters, Bran could understand that, but it did not have to be Robb.(AGoT, Ch.53 Bran VI)

Once he was at Moat Cailin, the refinement of his concept of where to march 'to war' and how, was informed by Roose Bolton and Galbart Glover, with some blatent idiocy from the Greatjon, and a passing mention of Rickard Karstark. He felt a pressured agreement that, now the Manderleys had arrived from Whiteharbour, they had better all go marching down the neck...to what or where being the only matters left to decide upon.

That Robb had to command them, admitted no doubt, for the strategic reason that:

Quote

“They are not Starks,”(AGoT, Ch.55 Catelyn VIII)

Once he arrived at Moat Calin his ideas were formed by his bannermen, and only  Sansa's letters and the hope of the Vale's knights and Tyrion as hostage stayed him:

Quote

If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way, but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees. He’ll stay close to the Trident, they believe, taking the castles of the river lords one by one, until Riverrun stands alone. We need to march south to meet him.”

...She was hearing the lords bannermen speaking with her son’s voice, she realized.(AGoT, Ch.55 Catelyn VIII)

No kidding. Not that Catelyn's plans were much better - abduct Tyrion, hold him at the Eyrie to give Lord Tywin a reason to harass the Riverlands, then let Lysa set him free, so he can join his father at the Inn she abducted him from, no thanks to the protection or mercy of the Tully sisters. Then accompany the Manderleys from Whiteharbour to Moat Cailin, where she meets Theon. While he wasn't the one she would prefer to command the troops, she would prefer he led the host into the Riverlands than Robb. Hers was a Tully plan, focused on assisting the Lords of the Riverlands and Riverrun. Nevermind White Harbor, and nevermind Winterfell, Ser Rodrik will be sufficient protection for Winterfell.

Winterfell was not in the thoughts of either Catelyn or Robb. Robb perceived it as so safe, his men so trusty, that he could leave the portcullis up and the drawbridge down for a fortnight while all the strangers came and went. But he couldn't let Bran go to Winter Town, his mother would skin him for a pelt if he did, after Bolton's man had knifed Cewyn's one. "Don't play the boy with me, Bran" (AGoT, Ch.53 Bran VI). There are lots of little hints that Robb is not quite in control of his troops, from the start. He seems to me to have had some supernatural good luck.

That Catelyn uses Eddard to persuade Robb from his bannerman's plan, to her own, is not the same as persuading him to command the way Eddard would. Far from it.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, John Doe said:

Who are those people? Those same Stark fans who view Ned as a brilliant swordsman? Show me prove from the books, if you have any.

Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind, if anything. We know Whispering Wood was Blackfish's idea, we know he continued to be Robb's close advisor and we actually hear about his reputation as a military commander. And Greywind spotted the way to the Westerlands which made their whole strategy possible. Apart from that, Robb gave Roose command over half his army, which he could indeed have from Ned (the was he guy who trust Littlefinger after all).

 

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Where is your evidence for this?

Eddard seems to have been a very successful commander in Robert's Rebellion. I suppose the credit for raising all the banners of the North, while every other force (except the Lannisters) had to deal with divided loyalties, really belongs to his father, his older brother, and the Stark name, rather than his own abilities, but nearly the same could be said for Robb, and once Eddard had rallied his forces he made a decisive difference at the Trident, and got to King's Landing in time to bring Tywin to submission and take the throne in Robert's name.

At that point in time, Pycelle, and a number of Tywin's bannermen, had supposed Tywin would be the King on the Iron Throne, and Eddard would be the one to kneel before him. That is a decisive difference, and from a man who had not been bred for glory in battle (that was his brother Brandon's thing), and was still in his teens, against a seasoned commander like Tywin, well, Tywin must have seen something that persuaded him submission was the better option, not just for the short term.

Then he survived the Tower of Joy, hand to hand combat against the legends of the Kings Guard. I'd say he did pretty well, having himself and one other of his men survive, and none of the Kings Guard.

In putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion, he seemed to have got and kept the upper hand in a sea battle against the Ironborn. In fact, he seems to have demolished Pyke. That's not a bad record. In fact, I don't think we have yet heard of Eddard losing a battle.

While I agree that his son's victories are his own, Catelyn sees a strong resemblance to Ned in the way he goes about planning them:

One thing I find interesting - Robb's battle style is wily and underhand, guerilla attacks, raids in the darkness, cunning feints...very little of the noble rules of chivalry, or of open warfare on display here. And yet Catelyn is constantly comparing it to Eddard's style - Eddard the battle Commander was not the Warden of the North who prized honour above all else.  Although, when Robb saw the Lannister squires killed in their beds, and (more dubiously) despoiled the Westerling maid in hers, he also prized honour above all else.

What she said.

[John Doe]

11 hours ago, Walda said:

Where is your evidence for this?

Eddard seems to have been a very successful commander in Robert's Rebellion. I suppose the credit for raising all the banners of the North, while every other force (except the Lannisters) had to deal with divided loyalties, really belongs to his father, his older brother, and the Stark name, rather than his own abilities, but nearly the same could be said for Robb, and once Eddard had rallied his forces he made a decisive difference at the Trident, and got to King's Landing in time to bring Tywin to submission and take the throne in Robert's name.

At that point in time, Pycelle, and a number of Tywin's bannermen, had supposed Tywin would be the King on the Iron Throne, and Eddard would be the one to kneel before him. That is a decisive difference, and from a man who had not been bred for glory in battle (that was his brother Brandon's thing), and was still in his teens, against a seasoned commander like Tywin, well, Tywin must have seen something that persuaded him submission was the better option, not just for the short term.

Then he survived the Tower of Joy, hand to hand combat against the legends of the Kings Guard. I'd say he did pretty well, having himself and one other of his men survive, and none of the Kings Guard.

In putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion, he seemed to have got and kept the upper hand in a sea battle against the Ironborn. In fact, he seems to have demolished Pyke. That's not a bad record. In fact, I don't think we have yet heard of Eddard losing a battle.

While I agree that his son's victories are his own, Catelyn sees a strong resemblance to Ned in the way he goes about planning them:

One thing I find interesting - Robb's battle style is wily and underhand, guerilla attacks, raids in the darkness, cunning feints...very little of the noble rules of chivalry, or of open warfare on display here. And yet Catelyn is constantly comparing it to Eddard's style - Eddard the battle Commander was not the Warden of the North who prized honour above all else.  Although, when Robb saw the Lannister squires killed in their beds, and (more dubiously) despoiled the Westerling maid in hers, he also prized honour above all else.

ETA: The decision to have Roose Bolton command the army at the Green Fork was made by Robb, after listening to counsel from Catelyn

If you say he was a brilliant commander, you have to offer the evidence, otherwise I could call Hotpie a brilliant commander and you would have to role with it unless you find actual evidence saying the contrary. 

 

Sure, he made a difference at the Trident, along with Robert, Jon, and Hoster. Does it say anywhere that Ned was especially good commander in this battle? The only commander who repeatedly gets credit is Robert, not Ned. 

He got to King's Landing because Robert had to stay behind due to his injuries. It was not due to some brilliant strategy by Ned, it was just a march. 

You think Tywin submitted the throne because of Ned's ability as a commander? From Tywin we hear that he wanted to betray the Targs to gain the favor of Robert, who saw himself as too honorable to kill children. He makes no mention of Ned Stark. 

The Tower of Joy was not brilliant command either, he was a decent swordsman. Remember though that he would have died there if not for Howland Reed. No mention of his brilliant commanding abilites here by anyone in the books. 

Stannis smashed the Iron Fleet, not Ned. We never hear about Ned commanding a fleet, and the North doesn't really seem to have one, even less so on the west coast. The attack on Pyke was presumably commanded by Robert first and foremost. He is the one we actually hear characters praising his abilites in battle, and he has the higher rank. Sure, Ned presumably commanded his own northern forces, but nothing we hear indicates he did anything extraordinary here. The rebellion was mainly put down by a Baratheon, not by a Stark.

Where is Cat "constantly" comparing his sly battle tactics to Ned? Could you give me a quote? I remember only once she did it. Most of his tactics are influenced by the Blackfish rather than Ned for all we know. Blackfish, again in contrary to Ned, has a special reputation for warfare and has constantly been part of his councils. 

And for the record, I'm not saying Ned was a bad commander, just that there's nothing indicating that he was "brilliant", especially not if you compare him to the likes of Robert, Stannis, the Blackfish, Randyll and even his son. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 hours ago, John Doe said:

And for the record, I'm not saying Ned was a bad commander, just that there's nothing indicating that he was "brilliant", especially not if you compare him to the likes of Robert, Stannis, the Blackfish, Randyll and even his son. 

Well. We simply don’t have enough to go on to say that he was “brilliant”, which is a rather vague term anyway. We do get indications he was a very good commander though. Catelyn often compares Robb to Ned, and makes it clear Ned taught Robb a lot of the stuff he uses. Robb is generally acknowledged as a great commander by followers and enemies. That’s at least an indication that Ned was a good commander.

Robert Baratheon credits Ned with the victory of the Battle of the Bells. One victory, sure, but that’s still to his credit. Funny that other commanders are considered "brilliant" with as little evidence as there is for Ned being so. Stannis has one or two important victories, and one fucking catastrophy of a defeat. Robert has quite a few victories, though only one major one. Tarly seems to have a couple of victories notched up, but his reputation seems to rest solely on Ashford really, we don't hear about any other victories until Duskendale. Robb Stark and the Blackfish have a whole raft of them to be fair. I'd argue, with the evidence we have, they were the greatest commanders. 

Mostly, we base our judgement of characters based on the reputations they have with others. Since Ned was highly regarded (it appears) by Robert Baratheon and most if not all lords in the North, I think we can take that to mean he was at least well above average. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 11/12/2016 at 11:58 PM, John Doe said:

Who are those people? Those same Stark fans who view Ned as a brilliant swordsman? Show me prove from the books, if you have any.

Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind, if anything. We know Whispering Wood was Blackfish's idea, we know he continued to be Robb's close advisor and we actually hear about his reputation as a military commander. And Greywind spotted the way to the Westerlands which made their whole strategy possible. Apart from that, Robb gave Roose command over half his army, which he could indeed have from Ned (the was he guy who trust Littlefinger after all).

To be fair, the main advocate of this is Catelyn. On more than one occasion she thinks something along the lines of "Aww, just like Ned" when Robb does something, and constantly thinks about how Ned had trained him for what he's doing. That might just be a woman viewing her son and recently dead husband through rose-tinted goggles, granted, but she seems to weigh Robb's pros and cons relatively astutely. She does also give the proper due to Blackfish in fairness. 

I don't think anyone denies BFs influence over Robb's victories, but we don't know for definite he was (along with Grey Wind) entirely responsible for them. We aren't privy to the war councils so we don't know to what extent it was a joint or one-person effort. What we do know for *certain* is that the original strategy, which led to Robb hood-winking Tywin of all people, and stealing a march on Riverrun, was devised before BF arrived in Robb's army. Subsequent victories that stemmed from it such as Whispering Wood in particular were very much influenced by BF of course. 

[The hairy bear]

Regarding the OT, the easy explanation is that Pycelle just made a rookie mistake. In fact, the conversation goes:

Ned: What can you tell me of his final illness?”
Pycelle: He came to me one day asking after a certain book, as hale and healthy as ever, though it did seem to me that something was troubling him deeply. The next morning he was twisted over in pain... (....)

During the rest of the conversation, Pycell tries to put the blame on Varys. Finally, when Ned is leaving:

Ned: One thing, I should be curious to examine the book that you lent Jon the day before he fell ill.”
Pycelle: I fear you would find it of little interest. It was a ponderous tome by Grand Maester Malleon on the lineages of the great houses.
Ned:  Still, I should like to see it.

So it seems that Pycelle let slip an offhand mention of the book, and when Eddard asked for it he wasn't quick enough to think of a safe lie.

That said, I suspect that when George wrote this dialogue he thought that Pycelle would not know about Cersei and Jaime, and when writing ACOK he forgot about it. IMHO, the murder mystery investigation in AGOT is one of the weakest subplots in the whole series. We have Pycelle giving the book to Eddard (although he wants to protect Cersei and the Lannisters), we have Petyr claiming that the knife was Tyrion's (a lie that could easily be discovered), we have Varys showing the bastards to Eddard (although he was worried that Starks and Lannisters went to war "before they were ready"),... Combining this with two red herrings (the death of Jon Arryn's squire and the identity of Robert Arryn's ward) makes the whole story unnecessarily complicated and confusing, in a bad way.

I would have made much more sense if it had been Littlefinger who pointed out about the book. He is the one who wants

On 12/12/2016 at 6:33 AM, Walda said:

Not that Catelyn's plans were much better - abduct Tyrion, hold him at the Eyrie to give Lord Tywin a reason to harass the Riverlands, then let Lysa set him free, so he can join his father at the Inn she abducted him from, no thanks to the protection or mercy of the Tully sisters. Then accompany the Manderleys from Whiteharbour to Moat Cailin, where she meets Theon. While he wasn't the one she would prefer to command the troops, she would prefer he led the host into the Riverlands than Robb. Hers was a Tully plan, focused on assisting the Lords of the Riverlands and Riverrun. Nevermind White Harbor, and nevermind Winterfell, Ser Rodrik will be sufficient protection for Winterfell.

You are cheating a little bit here, since you have the benefit of having lots of information that Catelyn didn't have. Catelyn took her decision counting that Robert would not die and that her sister had not gone mad, and those were two safe assumptions at the time. With Robert in power, Tywin would not have dared to openly attack the Riverlands (while he was alive he only sent the banerless Clegane and Lorch, for some small raids). And if Lysa had only kept Tyrion in a sky cell, the Lannisters would have fared much worse in the war (no alliance with the mountain clans, no wildfire or chain in the Blackwater, Joffrey and Cersei ruling unchecked in KL,...

Presuming that a seasoned commander or at least an adult like Theon could lead an army better than a sixteen years old was, again, a sensible consideration. The fact that Robb turned out to be a great leader and tactician was not something easily foreseeable. And regarding Theon, remind that she was against sending him home was a bad idea, so it doesn't seem fair to blame her for the fall of Winterfell when it would have been avoided if Robb had followed her counsil.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

25 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Varys showing the bastards to Eddard (although he was worried that Starks and Lannisters went to war "before they were ready")

I thought it was Littlefinger who pointed Eddard in the direction of the bastards?

[The hairy bear]

22 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I thought it was Littlefinger who pointed Eddard in the direction of the bastards?

My bad, Varys had nothing to do with it. Just checked it, and Eddard finds about the bastards by interviewing Jon's stableboy. I misremembered.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, The hairy bear said:

My bad, Varys had nothing to do with it. Just checked it, and Eddard finds about the bastards by interviewing Jon's stableboy. I misremembered.

Yeah, and LF takes him to the brothel to meet one of them after Jory spent ages looking for her.

[Walda]

18 hours ago, John Doe said:

you have to offer the evidence

No, you have to offer evidence to back your claims: to clarify the degree of luminosity you grant Ned as a commander, to show how  "Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind", to show where "we actually hear about his [Blackfishes] reputation as a military commander", and  to explain the role Ned played in Robb's selection of Bolton as commander for the battle of the Green Fork, if you can.

Or you can use the bit of my previous post where I show that he didn't, and (unless you have an interesting angle I have missed) wouldn't have selected Bolton (or anyone else) to engage the North in a war with Lord Tywin, as a template for how to offer evidence to back up your assertions, rather than rely on ad hominem exclamations like "Who are these people?" (answer: Catelyn, as I have given evidence for, see above for how to do it.)

I only have to offer evidence to back up my own assertions, not the ones you create for me then demand I find quotes for. I wondered how much Robb's sly battle tactics resembled Ned's. I never claimed Catelyn did. Catelyn has too high an opinion of her own family's honour to use that word on them. She is not Lord Bolton, or Tyrion Lannister. The only people she calls sly are Petyr Baelish (AGoT, Ch.18 Catelyn IV) and Theon Greyjoy.(ACoK, Ch.07 Catelyn I)

Both Jon and Robb seem to have been influenced by Eddard's notions of what a commander should be:

Quote

“It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard,” Lord Eddard told his sons, so Robb and he used to climb the towers of Winterfell to shout at each other across the yard.(ASoS, Ch.55 Jon VII)

Quote

“Kill him, Robb,” Theon Greyjoy urged. “Take his head off.”
“No,” her son answered, peeling off his bloody glove. “He’s more use alive than dead. And my lord father never condoned the murder of prisoners after a battle.”
“A wise man,” Jaime Lannister said, “and honorable.”(AGoT, Ch.63 Catelyn X)

 And we are not given a lot of direct evidence about Eddard's battle commands, except that he held them, so I wonder if his style was more like Robb's, or more like Jon's.

Which brings me to a third point about evidence: it isn't equally distributed. On Robert's command and stratgies, the size of his armies, his legendary warhammer, we get a lot. On Rhaegar, Jon Arryn, Eddard, very little, and most of that is about the battles they shared with Robert.

We know that the rebellion started with the King calling for Eddard's head (ADwD, Ch.09 Davos I), and Jon Arryn raising banners in defiance, but then having to quell the Targaryen loyalists at Gulltown that had risen at his defiance (or closed the town? it seems to have been more like a siege than a rising). Eddard snuck through the Mountains of the Moon, across the Bite to the Sisters, and thence to 'the North' where he was able to raise his banners. What they planned to do, what they ended up doing, how they did it, how large their forces, what impediments or opposition they encountered, we know very little. Lyn Corbray was a Gulltown rebel, and slew Prince Lewyn on the Trident,(AFfC, Ch.23 Alayne I) so we know at least that Jon Arryn got one treacherous paedophile rebel knight over to his side.

Lord Godric of Sweetsister says Robert gained the wall at Gulltown, and slew Marq Grafton, so maybe Jon had Robert to thank for his success. Eddard was caught in a storm in the Bite, and persuaded the Old Lord Borrell against his maester's advice, that 'only winter is certain' and left with his head on his shoulders and Lord Borrell's proviso 'if you lose, you were never here'. (ADwD, Ch.09 Davos I).

If Jon Arryn didn't rejoin Robert at the Battle of the Bells, Eddard and Denys Arryn did,(ASoS, Ch.29 Arya V) After the Battle of the Bells, Jon joined Eddard at Riverrun, where they married the Tully girls, and got Hoster's bannerlords, and the Blackfish joining Arryn's forces. (ASoS, Ch.02 Catelyn I)

We don't know of any battles or difficulties Eddard encountered in raising his Northern host and taking it south. We don't know if Howland Reed accompanied him from the Tourney at Harrenhal, or rejoined him when the Northern host came down the neck. We don't know the size of the host Eddard took to Stoney Sept, the Trident, Kings Landing, Storms End. Maybe the Storm's End host didn't need to be large, as Mace might suppose the Targaryen cause was lost after the King died, and might want to cut a good deal while he could (I guess, going on the size and prosperity of Highgarden, and the number of his banner-lords, fifteen years later.)

We do know his host was down to seven, on horseback, by the time Eddard reached the Tower of Joy. (AGoT, Ch.39 Eddard X)

We don't know how he got there. Down the Boneway, or up the Prince's pass, or some other way through or around  the Red Mountains (that are as slippery as the Serpentine steps of the Red Keep, when it comes to to where they do and don't lead to). We don't know exactly how big the Northen host Eddard had at his back was. Maybe a lot of them stayed in Kings Landing, or at Storm's end, or returned to their homes. Maybe they perished in the Dornish sun. We know he had a host, and it probably numbered more than seven (no commander could be that brilliant).
Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn’s bones,(but not those of Elia, Rhanarys, or Aegon) and parleyed with Prince Doran (ASoS, Ch.53 Tyrion VI), so maybe Eddard & host of six went part of the way with him, or maybe his much larger host had an unfortunate encounter with Oberyn in the high passes. Eddard, Howland, and the horses still had enough strength between them to pull down the Tower of Joy and build eight cairns.(AGoT, Ch.39 Eddard X) And they took Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell, and Lord Dustin's horse back to Barrowton. (ADwD, Ch.41 The Turncloak)

Apart from the natural narrative need to keep Lyanna's death shrouded in mystery, it seems unnatural that we know so little about the battle at the Tower of Joy. Ser Barristan Selmy should know about it - it was up to him to finish the pages of Ser Oswell, Ser Gerold, and Ser Arthur in the White Book. Singers should have cobbled some song together out of whatever rumours they had heard, of the deaths of these legendary knights. 

Because so much of Eddard's command is obscured for the sake of the plot, I can't really rate his brilliance, compared to Stannis or Robert, Jon Arryn or Tywin, or Rhaegar or JonCon or Mace. Better than Aerys, at a guess. Because Aerys was mad and bad.

But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We know Eddard fought these battles, we know he won. We know that he did what it took to get the job done. That alone would make him a good commander. From the strategic commands that Catelyn and Robb ignored, the loyalty he inspires, his knowledge of his guards and his bannermen, his diligence in ensuring his kids get proper training in the martial arts (even Arya), and a thorough knowledge of military history,  and other hints and inferences, I'd say, he was at least above average, and very likely to have been a brilliant commander. And I suspect he had at least one crushing defeat we haven't been told about, in the Dornish Marshes.

 

18 hours ago, John Doe said:

Randyll and even his son. 

Oh, please. Sam has shown himself to be a lucky survivor, and braver than he knows, but who has he commanded? Daeron? Gilly? It is all he can do to follow the commands he is given semi-competently.

Or did you mean Dickon? Between snitching to dad on Ser Hyle and the boys at Highgarden, and getting married to Mooten's girl at the age of twelve, I don't recall him taking a command role.

As for Randyll - well, it is true that he thinks highly of himself, and Kevan Lannister thinks highly of him. However, it seems to me that he has been blessed with excellent commanders who sent him to battles that could be won by fierce front-on fighting, and he has fallen down as a commander wherever a notion of strategy would have made a difference. For example, in the battle of Stoney Sept, if his object had been to force Robert's levies to retreat back to Storms End,  or at least, not slip into the Riverlands, where they were clearly bound anyway, people would have had a much higher estimation of Mace's skill as a commander.

But Randyll is a one-trick pony, and his trick is to capture the local lord's castle and bully the unarmed populace when they surrender. His most strategic move was to use Heartsbane to chop off the head of Lord Cafferen and send it to Aerys, so the king would credit him with killing traitors, and blame Mace for letting Robert escape Storm's End. Great strategy to boost his career - or would have been if someone hadn't let  Robert take the Riverlands, and thence the Iron Throne. Randyll's other sharp tactical move was getting his army down to Kings Landing when Margaery was arrested. And that was 'just a march', over pacified territory that was already his, to a capital that was not armed against him. If a brilliant commander is one who knows what side his bread is buttered on, Randyll is your man. If you are interested in winning wars, you give Randyll a commander that thinks about what wins wars.

However, I have already ranted about his mediocrity at length in this thread, and here as well, and as you said at the time

On 17/05/2016 at 1:23 AM, John Doe said:

Randyll is seriously over-hyped as a general. He's good in comarison to the bad ones, but every outstanding general in the series is better than him. 

I feel no need to re-rant it all here. You can tell us if your opinion of Randyll has radically improved in the last few months, or why you rate him above Eddard if you do, and you choose. I think the little we know of Eddard's campaign history is enough to know that he is not one of 'the bad ones', and simply the number of battles he has held a command in, and not lost, is enough to earn him more command-lumens than all the Tarlys together (so far, and so far as we know). Although that is faint praise. It is possible to be a more brilliant commander than all the Tarlys together without absolutely coruscating.  

[John Doe]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

No, you have to offer evidence to back your claims: to clarify the degree of luminosity you grant Ned as a commander, to show how  "Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind", to show where "we actually hear about his [Blackfishes] reputation as a military commander", and  to explain the role Ned played in Robb's selection of Bolton as commander for the battle of the Green Fork, if you can.

Or you can use the bit of my previous post where I show that he didn't, and (unless you have an interesting angle I have missed) wouldn't have selected Bolton (or anyone else) to engage the North in a war with Lord Tywin, as a template for how to offer evidence to back up your assertions, rather than rely on ad hominem exclamations like "Who are these people?" (answer: Catelyn, as I have given evidence for, see above for how to do it.)

I only have to offer evidence to back up my own assertions, not the ones you create for me then demand I find quotes for. I wondered how much Robb's sly battle tactics resembled Ned's. I never claimed Catelyn did. Catelyn has too high an opinion of her own family's honour to use that word on them. She is not Lord Bolton, or Tyrion Lannister. The only people she calls sly are Petyr Baelish (AGoT, Ch.18 Catelyn IV) and Theon Greyjoy.(ACoK, Ch.07 Catelyn I)

Both Jon and Robb seem to have been influenced by Eddard's notions of what a commander should be:

 And we are not given a lot of direct evidence about Eddard's battle commands, except that he held them, so I wonder if his style was more like Robb's, or more like Jon's.

Which brings me to a third point about evidence: it isn't equally distributed. On Robert's command and stratgies, the size of his armies, his legendary warhammer, we get a lot. On Rhaegar, Jon Arryn, Eddard, very little, and most of that is about the battles they shared with Robert.

We know that the rebellion started with the King calling for Eddard's head (ADwD, Ch.09 Davos I), and Jon Arryn raising banners in defiance, but then having to quell the Targaryen loyalists at Gulltown that had risen at his defiance (or closed the town? it seems to have been more like a siege than a rising). Eddard snuck through the Mountains of the Moon, across the Bite to the Sisters, and thence to 'the North' where he was able to raise his banners. What they planned to do, what they ended up doing, how they did it, how large their forces, what impediments or opposition they encountered, we know very little. Lyn Corbray was a Gulltown rebel, and slew Prince Lewyn on the Trident,(AFfC, Ch.23 Alayne I) so we know at least that Jon Arryn got one treacherous paedophile rebel knight over to his side.

Lord Godric of Sweetsister says Robert gained the wall at Gulltown, and slew Marq Grafton, so maybe Jon had Robert to thank for his success. Eddard was caught in a storm in the Bite, and persuaded the Old Lord Borrell against his maester's advice, that 'only winter is certain' and left with his head on his shoulders and Lord Borrell's proviso 'if you lose, you were never here'. (ADwD, Ch.09 Davos I).

If Jon Arryn didn't rejoin Robert at the Battle of the Bells, Eddard and Denys Arryn did,(ASoS, Ch.29 Arya V) After the Battle of the Bells, Jon joined Eddard at Riverrun, where they married the Tully girls, and got Hoster's bannerlords, and the Blackfish joining Arryn's forces. (ASoS, Ch.02 Catelyn I)

We don't know of any battles or difficulties Eddard encountered in raising his Northern host and taking it south. We don't know if Howland Reed accompanied him from the Tourney at Harrenhal, or rejoined him when the Northern host came down the neck. We don't know the size of the host Eddard took to Stoney Sept, the Trident, Kings Landing, Storms End. Maybe the Storm's End host didn't need to be large, as Mace might suppose the Targaryen cause was lost after the King died, and might want to cut a good deal while he could (I guess, going on the size and prosperity of Highgarden, and the number of his banner-lords, fifteen years later.)

We do know his host was down to seven, on horseback, by the time Eddard reached the Tower of Joy. (AGoT, Ch.39 Eddard X)

We don't know how he got there. Down the Boneway, or up the Prince's pass, or some other way through or around  the Red Mountains (that are as slippery as the Serpentine steps of the Red Keep, when it comes to to where they do and don't lead to). We don't know exactly how big the Northen host Eddard had at his back was. Maybe a lot of them stayed in Kings Landing, or at Storm's end, or returned to their homes. Maybe they perished in the Dornish sun. We know he had a host, and it probably numbered more than seven (no commander could be that brilliant).
Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn’s bones,(but not those of Elia, Rhanarys, or Aegon) and parleyed with Prince Doran (ASoS, Ch.53 Tyrion VI), so maybe Eddard & host of six went part of the way with him, or maybe his much larger host had an unfortunate encounter with Oberyn in the high passes. Eddard, Howland, and the horses still had enough strength between them to pull down the Tower of Joy and build eight cairns.(AGoT, Ch.39 Eddard X) And they took Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell, and Lord Dustin's horse back to Barrowton. (ADwD, Ch.41 The Turncloak)

Apart from the natural narrative need to keep Lyanna's death shrouded in mystery, it seems unnatural that we know so little about the battle at the Tower of Joy. Ser Barristan Selmy should know about it - it was up to him to finish the pages of Ser Oswell, Ser Gerold, and Ser Arthur in the White Book. Singers should have cobbled some song together out of whatever rumours they had heard, of the deaths of these legendary knights. 

Because so much of Eddard's command is obscured for the sake of the plot, I can't really rate his brilliance, compared to Stannis or Robert, Jon Arryn or Tywin, or Rhaegar or JonCon or Mace. Better than Aerys, at a guess. Because Aerys was mad and bad.

But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We know Eddard fought these battles, we know he won. We know that he did what it took to get the job done. That alone would make him a good commander. From the strategic commands that Catelyn and Robb ignored, the loyalty he inspires, his knowledge of his guards and his bannermen, his diligence in ensuring his kids get proper training in the martial arts (even Arya), and a thorough knowledge of military history,  and other hints and inferences, I'd say, he was at least above average, and very likely to have been a brilliant commander. And I suspect he had at least one crushing defeat we haven't been told about, in the Dornish Marshes.

 

Oh, please. Sam has shown himself to be a lucky survivor, and braver than he knows, but who has he commanded? Daeron? Gilly? It is all he can do to follow the commands he is given semi-competently.

Or did you mean Dickon? Between snitching to dad on Ser Hyle and the boys at Highgarden, and getting married to Mooten's girl at the age of twelve, I don't recall him taking a command role.

As for Randyll - well, it is true that he thinks highly of himself, and Kevan Lannister thinks highly of him. However, it seems to me that he has been blessed with excellent commanders who sent him to battles that could be won by fierce front-on fighting, and he has fallen down as a commander wherever a notion of strategy would have made a difference. For example, in the battle of Stoney Sept, if his object had been to force Robert's levies to retreat back to Storms End,  or at least, not slip into the Riverlands, where they were clearly bound anyway, people would have had a much higher estimation of Mace's skill as a commander.

But Randyll is a one-trick pony, and his trick is to capture the local lord's castle and bully the unarmed populace when they surrender. His most strategic move was to use Heartsbane to chop off the head of Lord Cafferen and send it to Aerys, so the king would credit him with killing traitors, and blame Mace for letting Robert escape Storm's End. Great strategy to boost his career - or would have been if someone hadn't let  Robert take the Riverlands, and thence the Iron Throne. Randyll's other sharp tactical move was getting his army down to Kings Landing when Margaery was arrested. And that was 'just a march', over pacified territory that was already his, to a capital that was not armed against him. If a brilliant commander is one who knows what side his bread is buttered on, Randyll is your man. If you are interested in winning wars, you give Randyll a commander that thinks about what wins wars.

However, I have already ranted about his mediocrity at length in this thread, and here as well, and as you said at the time

I feel no need to re-rant it all here. You can tell us if your opinion of Randyll has radically improved in the last few months, or why you rate him above Eddard if you do, and you choose. I think the little we know of Eddard's campaign history is enough to know that he is not one of 'the bad ones', and simply the number of battles he has held a command in, and not lost, is enough to earn him more command-lumens than all the Tarlys together (so far, and so far as we know). Although that is faint praise. It is possible to be a more brilliant commander than all the Tarlys together without absolutely coruscating.  

My claim wasn't the original one, so you're wrong. My argument is that the evidence to say that he is brilliant isn't there, and you've done nothing to prove me wrong in this regard.

If you don't read my back-up I can't do anything for you really. As I already said, Blackfish is Robb's chief advisor, he has the best reputation among Robb's followers, so it is indeed likely that if anyone can be credited for Robb's victories aside of he himself, it's the Blackfish. And Greywind made the attack on the Westerlands possible, so at least his wolf did more to help Robb than Ned did. 

Exactly, we do not know so much about Ned's actions during the rebellion. Nothing we do know backs up your claim that he was brilliant. What we know backs up that he was at least average, most likely above average. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,so saying that he was great, brilliant, or anything of that sort requires brilliant actions on his part. Like Stannis tricking the Iron Fleet, Robb ambushing the Westerlanders twice, Robert winning three battles in a day, and so on. You're essentially saying "there's nothing saying he wasn't brilliant, so he was brilliant". That kind of logic would also justify saying things like Hotpie has a brilliant strategic mind because there's no evidence proving the contrary. Let's face it, in pretty much every battle credited in favor of Ned, he wasn't the only commander.

With "his son" I meant Robb, I should have worded it better. 

I stand by my assestment of Randyll. But please, show me what makes Eddard an outstanding general. There is no evidence for it. Did he win the Battle of the Bells? Sure, because he brought the fresh reinforcements. Did he defeat Mace at Storm's End? Mace yieled before any battle happened. Did he take King's Landing? Yes,  but Tywin didn't put up a fight and didn't plan to, for all we know. Without the details you could also say Mace is a brilliant commander, as he won every one of his battles. Did he help Robert win the rebellion? Indeed he did, but so did every other commander who was part of the rebellion.  Do we have evidence that Ned was better than his counterparts? No. So spare me your personal attacks and focus on finding textual evidence. 

But I don't even think we are in a disagreement. You say yourself that there's only evidence saying that he is average, or maybe above average. Which is exactly my opinion of Ned as a general, until evidence proving his brilliance as a battle commander comes to light. 

[Neds Secret]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:40 AM, John Doe said:

He wasn't a brilliant commander. 

He was better than his foes!

[Walda]

We are not going to find the words 'Ned is a brilliant commander' anywhere in the books. But that is a point in his favour, when we look at what GRRM means when he associates brilliance with commanders. 

The only place where the words 'brilliant' and 'commander' appear together is:

Quote

Astapor’s brave defenders are so much chaff, it’s true. Old names and fat purses who dress up as Ghiscari scourges to pretend they still rule a vast empire. Every one is a high officer. On feastdays they fight mock wars in the pits to demonstrate what brilliant commanders they are, but it’s the eunuchs who do the dying. (ASoS, Ch.23 Daenerys II)

In GRRM's lexicon 'brilliant' never implies greatness. "Brilliant" is most often associated with pageantry, a showy exterior for a hollow or mediocre thing, for a meaningless victory, a knight shining with untested potential, a walking corpse, who will litter a real battleground with his troops pretty much as soon as he becomes a battleground commander.

Sansa uses the word the most; she who is easily distracted by shiny things. At least she means it sincerely. Cersei uses it to butter up Ser Balman (AFfC, Ch.24 Cersei V), complimenting the tourney skills she has not even noticed he possesses, so he will go kill Bronn for her.

Half of the dozen times it refers to the performance or armour of knights at tourney. Jaime, who loses his right hand immediately before taking up his command of the Kings Guard, rides brilliantly(AGoT, Ch.29 Sansa II). Brienne and Loras have brilliant armour (ACoK, Ch.22 Catelyn II) at the Tourney of Bitterbridge, where Brienne earnt her place in Renly's kingsguard. Then at Storms End, she fails to protect her King from his assassin, and the Lord Commander of the Rainbow guard started slaying the men under his command for no particular reason 'in his grief'. Which does not auger well for those under Loras's command at Dragonstone. Rhaegar is another - brilliant at the Tourney at Storms End (ASoS, Ch.42 Daenerys IV), champion at the tourney of Harrenhal, killed when he commanded the battle on the Trident.

The first use of the word 'brilliant' is Sansa's observation of Lord Commander Barristan Selmy's armour (AGoT, Ch.15 Sansa I), before Joffrey strips him of his command for letting Robert die, and being too old. He seems to have escaped the curse of his brilliant armour, by becoming a squire, and rising to a new command in a Queensguard. Although his queen has gone missing, and he has imprisoned her king, and appointed himself Hand of the Queen's council. A war council. I suppose we shall have to see how that turns out.

There is only one time where the battle commander outshines the tourney commander, sort of. Jorah's contemptuous mention of Astapor's 'brilliant commanders' is bookended by King Cleon commanding at the battle of Astapor: 

Quote

The big man pointed out the Butcher King to him, sitting stiff and tall upon an armored horse in a suit of copper scale that flashed brilliantly in the morning sun.(ADwD, Ch.25 The Windblown, Quentyn at the fall of Astapor)

 Not a good sign for Stannis and his magical sword, or for Davos as Lord of Rainwood, Admiral of the Narrow Sea, or Hand of the King.

Quote

The air shimmered around it, and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly.(ASoS, Ch.36 Davos IV, when Davos is dubbed a Lord by Lightbringer, at Dragonstone)

The fleet he was admiral of went down in flames, but he still has his Lordship and his Hand (most of it).

When Eddard uses the word, he rates the importance of a command being heard over the brilliance of the man that delivers it.(ASoS, Ch.55 Jon VII). Almost an insult, in context.

There are two other times the word is used: Once to describe the Wall, immediately before Jon sees Jarl and his team plummet to their death. Don't like Grigg's chances of seeing the green men on the isle of faces, either - he was in the glare of it, while Errok's team was in the shadow. The dead were burning when his team reached the top, and no longer emitting light by the time Errok's team made it up.(ASoS, Ch.30 Jon IV)

The other time, it refers to the blue sky above the impregnable Eyrie, wrapped in an icy mantle, viewed by Alayne from SweetRobin's bedroom window, as she comes to coax him down to the Gates of the Moon (ADwD, Ch.41 Alayne II). I'm not sure if SweetRobin, Lothar Brune, Mya, Petyr, Alayne, or even an escaped and stowed-away Marrillion is the commander of the Eyrie in this instance. Or perhaps this is the only time the word is used simply to mean 'shining bright', and does not foreshadow the blue calling the next commander of the Eyrie.

TL;DR Brilliant, not brilliant.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On December 11, 2016 at 6:58 PM, John Doe said:

Who are those people? Those same Stark fans who view Ned as a brilliant swordsman? Show me prove from the books, if you have any.

Robb's victories can be attributed to the influences of the Blackfish and Greywind, if anything. We know Whispering Wood was Blackfish's idea, we know he continued to be Robb's close advisor and we actually hear about his reputation as a military commander. And Greywind spotted the way to the Westerlands which made their whole strategy possible. Apart from that, Robb gave Roose command over half his army, which he could indeed have from Ned (the was he guy who trust Littlefinger after all).

When Jon hears of this he is surprised because he remembers Ned specifically not trusting Roose Bolton.  That 1 is Catlyns influence not Neds.

[John Doe]

3 hours ago, Walda said:

We are not going to find the words 'Ned is a brilliant commander' anywhere in the books. But that is a point in his favour, when we look at what GRRM means when he associates brilliance with commanders. 

The only place where the words 'brilliant' and 'commander' appear together is:

In GRRM's lexicon 'brilliant' never implies greatness. "Brilliant" is most often associated with pageantry, a showy exterior for a hollow or mediocre thing, for a meaningless victory, a knight shining with untested potential, a walking corpse, who will litter a real battleground with his troops pretty much as soon as he becomes a battleground commander.

Sansa uses the word the most; she who is easily distracted by shiny things. At least she means it sincerely. Cersei uses it to butter up Ser Balman (AFfC, Ch.24 Cersei V), complimenting the tourney skills she has not even noticed he possesses, so he will go kill Bronn for her.

Half of the dozen times it refers to the performance or armour of knights at tourney. Jaime, who loses his right hand immediately before taking up his command of the Kings Guard, rides brilliantly(AGoT, Ch.29 Sansa II). Brienne and Loras have brilliant armour (ACoK, Ch.22 Catelyn II) at the Tourney of Bitterbridge, where Brienne earnt her place in Renly's kingsguard. Then at Storms End, she fails to protect her King from his assassin, and the Lord Commander of the Rainbow guard started slaying the men under his command for no particular reason 'in his grief'. Which does not auger well for those under Loras's command at Dragonstone. Rhaegar is another - brilliant at the Tourney at Storms End (ASoS, Ch.42 Daenerys IV), champion at the tourney of Harrenhal, killed when he commanded the battle on the Trident.

The first use of the word 'brilliant' is Sansa's observation of Lord Commander Barristan Selmy's armour (AGoT, Ch.15 Sansa I), before Joffrey strips him of his command for letting Robert die, and being too old. He seems to have escaped the curse of his brilliant armour, by becoming a squire, and rising to a new command in a Queensguard. Although his queen has gone missing, and he has imprisoned her king, and appointed himself Hand of the Queen's council. A war council. I suppose we shall have to see how that turns out.

There is only one time where the battle commander outshines the tourney commander, sort of. Jeor's contemptuous mention of Astapor's 'brilliant commanders' is bookended by King Cleon commanding at the battle of Astapor: 

 Not a good sign for Stannis and his magical sword, or for Davos as Lord of Rainwood, Admiral of the Narrow Sea, or Hand of the King.

The fleet he was admiral of went down in flames, but he still has his Lordship and his Hand (most of it).

When Eddard uses the word, he rates the importance of a command being heard over the brilliance of the man that delivers it.(ASoS, Ch.55 Jon VII). Almost an insult, in context.

There are two other times the word is used: Once to describe the Wall, immediately before Jon sees Jarl and his team plummet to their death. Don't like Grigg's chances of seeing the green men on the isle of faces, either - he was in the glare of it, while Errok's team was in the shadow. The dead were burning when his team reached the top, and no longer emitting light by the time Errok's team made it up.(ASoS, Ch.30 Jon IV)

The other time, it refers to the blue sky above the impregnable Eyrie, wrapped in an icy mantle, viewed by Alayne from SweetRobin's bedroom window, as she comes to coax him down to the Gates of the Moon (ADwD, Ch.41 Alayne II). I'm not sure if SweetRobin, Lothar Brune, Mya, Petyr, Alayne, or even an escaped and stowed-away Marrillion is the commander of the Eyrie in this instance. Or perhaps this is the only time the word is used simply to mean 'shining bright', and does not foreshadow the blue calling the next commander of the Eyrie.

TL;DR Brilliant, not brilliant.

I'm not looking for this specific wording, I'm looking for something that implies the meaning. And the evidence isn't there. 

 

5 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

He was better than his foes!

As was Mace.