Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 That's what this article proposes:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-december-19th-electoral-college-vote-must-be-postponed_us_584d8789e4b01713310511d5 However, what does that do to the whole process. Can it be delayed? Does a Court have that authority? Can the Elector's refuse to act unless the issue of foreign interference is addressed? Would the House of Representatives then have the power to vote on the Presidency? If no one has been elected President by 1/20/2017 who is then the Chief Executive of the US, Paul Ryan? Curiouser and curiouser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Seems more like a theoretical law school discussion than a practical reality, but why not sprinkle in a Constitutional crisis to make 2016 all the more messed up? Question: Has anyone ever seen Trump laugh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squab Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 How far removed from reality does one have to be to not accept reality when it arrives? Denial - #notmypresident and Russia Anger - Riots Bargaining - Recount and electoral college hilarity Depression Acceptance I understand some people need to move through each stage but why regress back to denial. Does false hope actually help people grieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Vox continues to put out excellent pieces worthy of the best journalism long forms out there. Sarah Kliff has been the healthcare rep, and she's done a long talk to Kentucky residents about the future of Obamacare. It's sad, enlightening and crushing. One example of how it's been bad for people: Quote The deductible left Atkins exasperated. “I am totally afraid to be sick,” she says. “I don’t have [that money] to pay upfront if I go to the hospital tomorrow.” Atkins’s plan offers free preventive care, an Obamacare mandate. But she skips mammograms and colonoscopies because she doesn’t think she’d have the money to pay for any follow-up care if the doctors did detect something. Atkins says she only buys insurance as financial protection — “to keep from losing my house if something major happened,” she says. “But I’m not using it to go to the doctor. I’ve not used anything.” And another from those who it's helped: Quote Her enrollment process wasn’t seamless; there were calls back and forth to different insurance companies and hospitals to make sure certain providers were in network. But she ultimately finished the process pretty happy, selecting a more robust plan for 2017 with a $280 monthly premium for herself, her husband, and her son. As Mills waited to fill out the enrollment paperwork, we began to talk about her vote for Donald Trump one month earlier. “We were wanting change,” she said. “We’re in an area with a lot of coal. When people aren’t in the coal mines, they’re not spending and buying in our area.” She said she thought Trump, a successful businessman, would have a better shot at fixing all that. I asked her if she had followed the campaign and heard the candidates talk about repealing Obamacare. “I did, yeah,” she said. “That was the only thing I did not like about him.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I just have to say. I disagree strongly with the author here. I loathe Donald Trump. And I, obviously, don't have much kind to say about the Republican Party or conservatives either. That said, I think the maintenance of democratic norms is enormously important, along with peaceful and smooth transitions of power. I do not think that Trump's ascension to the presidency should be delayed, unless there is a smoking gun that he colluded with the Russians. Also, I'll just say, that for years I've watched conservatives become hysterical, irrational, and delusional. I have no desire to see the left or liberals go down the same road. There is plenty of facts and logic to criticize Trump, Republicans, and conservatives. Hysteria and irrationality are not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I also do not see how anything we have learned supports a huge breach of constitutional norms (a la delaying the electoral college vote). If there is something directly tying Trump to the Russians (which I doubt), then we have a system to deal with that - impeachment. Attempting to change our electoral process because some people feel nervous about not having the facts is a fantastically bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I just have to say. I disagree strongly with the author here. I loathe Donald Trump. And I, obviously, don't have much kind to say about the Republican Party or conservatives either. That said, I think the maintenance of democratic norms is enormously important, along with peaceful and smooth transitions of power. I do not think that Trump's ascension to the presidency should be delayed, unless there is a smoking gun that he colluded with the Russians. Also, I'll just say, that for years I've watched conservatives become hysterical, irrational, and delusional. I have no desire to see the left or liberals go down the same road. There is plenty of facts and logic to criticize Trump, Republicans, and conservatives. Hysteria and irrationality are not needed. I have some fairly intelligent friends on the Left of the spectrum who are backing this idea. They point out that hacking and other cyberwar related actions were (obviously) not contemplated when the order of events leading to the inauguration was created. That inaugurating someone who used fraudulent means to gain the office is worse than the disruption of the peaceful transfer of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Even if it's revealed that Russia hacked the shit out of everything in order to influence the election, the EC vote shouldn't be delayed. People voted, this is the result. Unless the investigation shows that Russia actually hacked voting machines, or took the last three years of flu shots designated for use in the US and were actually splicing in a "pull the Trump lever" gene, this is just stupid. There are many problems with elections in this country but I can't see what delaying this would even do. We should have mandatory recounts, rethink the EC, EC representation, House size, first past the post, etc. Say it turns out that Russia somehow influenced the election. What do we do? Revote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I have some fairly intelligent friends on the Left of the spectrum who are backing this idea. They point out that hacking and other cyberwar related actions were (obviously) not contemplated when the order of events leading to the inauguration were created. That inaugurating someone who used fraudulent means to gain the office is worse than the disruption of the peaceful transfer of power. Do you think that? Because we can't exactly argue with your "fairly intelligent friends" who aren't here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 Maithanet, No, I don't. If constitutional norms are chucked people will fell free to act "extra-Constitutionally". That is a danger unto itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 55 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: That's what this article proposes:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-december-19th-electoral-college-vote-must-be-postponed_us_584d8789e4b01713310511d5 However, what does that do to the whole process. Can it be delayed? Does a Court have that authority? Can the Elector's refuse to act unless the issue of foreign interference is addressed? Would the House of Representatives then have the power to vote on the Presidency? If no one has been elected President by 1/20/2017 who is then the Chief Executive of the US, Paul Ryan? Curiouser and curiouser. Tales of the 'acceptance of the election result' from the left. It almost requires it's own thread at this point. It's complete nonsense of course. I mean, what would be the result here? a whole new election? No one in their right mind should even be entertaining something like this as reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I have some fairly intelligent friends on the Left of the spectrum who are backing this idea. They point out that hacking and other cyberwar related actions were (obviously) not contemplated when the order of events leading to the inauguration was created. That inaugurating someone who used fraudulent means to gain the office is worse than the disruption of the peaceful transfer of power. But, there is no solid evidence, yet, that Trump did that, in the sense of colluding with the Russians. I'd like my side to base its arguments on facts, unlike some other sides I could mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: Even if it's revealed that Russia hacked the shit out of everything in order to influence the election, the EC vote shouldn't be delayed. People voted, this is the result. Unless the investigation shows that Russia actually hacked voting machines, or took the last three years of flu shots designated for use in the US and were actually splicing in a "pull the Trump lever" gene, this is just stupid. There are many problems with elections in this country but I can't see what delaying this would even do. We should have mandatory recounts, rethink the EC, EC representation, House size, first past the post, etc. Say it turns out that Russia somehow influenced the election. What do we do? Revote? Exactly. This is essentially 'delay the EC vote, because... Propaganda.' Uh... Wut? 4 minutes ago, Maithanet said: quote feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: But, there is no solid evidence, yet, that Trump did that, in the sense of colluding with the Russians. I'd like my side to base its arguments on facts, unlike some other sides I could mention. Yeah, isn't wishing people would stay off your side fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Yeah, isn't wishing people would stay off your side fun? LOL. But, you know, I don't want to see a left wing version of the Tea Party. When nuttiness starts to rear it's ugly head, I feel its my duty as a good liberal to stamp it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 18 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: Even if it's revealed that Russia hacked the shit out of everything in order to influence the election, the EC vote shouldn't be delayed. People voted, this is the result. Unless the investigation shows that Russia actually hacked voting machines, or took the last three years of flu shots designated for use in the US and were actually splicing in a "pull the Trump lever" gene, this is just stupid. There are many problems with elections in this country but I can't see what delaying this would even do. We should have mandatory recounts, rethink the EC, EC representation, House size, first past the post, etc. Say it turns out that Russia somehow influenced the election. What do we do? Revote? Even if you were able to prove that the Russians directly hacked the voting system to make Trump win, you'd still probably have to show that Trump was actively in cahoots with them to invalidate his victory. And in that case you wouldn't revote, you probably just have to impeach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Even if you were able to prove that the Russians directly hacked the voting system to make Trump win, you'd still probably have to show that Trump was actively in cahoots with them to invalidate his victory. And in that case you wouldn't revote, you probably just have to impeach him. And then put him in jail. Hell, you might have a case for hanging if that were to turn out to be proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Swordfish said: And then put him in jail. Yup. Then the tricky part is what would you do with Pence, especially if it could be proven that he took no part in anything? I've got no answer there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Yup. Then the tricky part is what would you do with Pence, especially if it could be proven that he took no part in anything? I've got no answer there. Yeah. I assume that Pence would get in and pardons would flow like cheap champagne, but who knows really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 52 minutes ago, Squab said: How far removed from reality does one have to be to not accept reality when it arrives? Denial - #notmypresident and Russia Anger - Riots Bargaining - Recount and electoral college hilarity Depression Acceptance I understand some people need to move through each stage but why regress back to denial. Does false hope actually help people grieve? The Democrats are as accepting the E.C as Trump is accepting that he lost the popular vote, bigly, and has a mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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