Why Rhaegar might be the Prince that was Promised

[The North Forgot]

First off, I believe like many others that The Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai are related or is the same person, and this is my take on how that is.

When Rhaegar was young, both he and Maester Aemon thought he was TPTWP, but later in life after reading a scroll, Rhaegar said "I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." according the Ser Barristan.

The prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn:

Quote

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

The last part of the legend of how Lightbringer was forged:

Quote

The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.

According to Melisandre, the prophecy of TPTWP is 5000 years old (Storm of Swords, Davos VI), and I'd think the prophecy has changed quite a bit over the years.

I think this might tie together like this:

Rhaegar believed for a long time he was TPTWP, read the scroll I mentioned above and said he should be a warrior. In the legend of Azor Ahai, "A warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword". The burning sword is, according to Melisandre, Lightbringer. What if instead of the literal forging of Lightbringer, it is the birth of a Lightbringer, the Sword or warrior, that will fight the darkness.

If we say Rhaegar was indeed the TPTWP, is it too far of a strech to say that he was the prince promised to "reforge" Lightbringer/Azor Ahai in the sense that Azor Ahai would be his child, whether that child is Aegon or Jon?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Nope. AAR & TPTWP are the same person. GRRM practically said so himself in that DVD commentary from years ago. 

Besides which fAegon ain't no son of Rhaegar! 

[The North Forgot]

35 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Nope. AAR & TPTWP are the same person. GRRM practically said so himself in that DVD commentary from years ago. 

Besides which fAegon ain't no son of Rhaegar! 

Him saying they are practically the same and him saying 100% they are the same are two different things though. Also, if that is correct and AAR/TPTWP are the same person, that might still mean that Rhaegar was the one.

If you interpret 

Quote

This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer

the same way I do, that it is a 5000 year old prophecy, which originally said TPTWP (and AAR if we go by your logic), would forge or make Lightbringer, not literally as a sword, but as a child, and the words have been either simply changed through the years or some of it is lost in translation.

And to the second part where you say "Besides which fAegon ain't no son of Rhaegar!", you might of course be right on this, but why would Varys give that speech to Kevan before he dies if Aegon is fake? Considering he has his "little birds" kill Pycelle and later Kevan, it's not likely IMO that he suspects he's being watched as he would make sure noone else would be close by.

In addition, Tyrion, who is known to pay attention to detail, makes the conclusion that Young Griff is Aegon. There has to be a reason for him to do that, considering everyone "knows" Aegon was killed during the sack of King's Landing.

[Amris]

38 minutes ago, The North Forgot said:

First off, I believe like many others that The Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai are related or is the same person, and this is my take on how that is.

When Rhaegar was young, both he and Maester Aemon thought he was TPTWP, but later in life after reading a scroll, Rhaegar said "I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." according the Ser Barristan.

The prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn:

The last part of the legend of how Lightbringer was forged:

According to Melisandre, the prophecy of TPTWP is 5000 years old (Storm of Swords, Davos VI), and I'd think the prophecy has changed quite a bit over the years.

I think this might tie together like this:

Rhaegar believed for a long time he was TPTWP, read the scroll I mentioned above and said he should be a warrior. In the legend of Azor Ahai, "A warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword". The burning sword is, according to Melisandre, Lightbringer. What if instead of the literal forging of Lightbringer, it is the birth of a Lightbringer, the Sword or warrior, that will fight the darkness.

If we say Rhaegar was indeed the TPTWP, is it too far of a strech to say that he was the prince promised to "reforge" Lightbringer/Azor Ahai in the sense that Azor Ahai would be his child, whether that child is Aegon or Jon?

I have played with a similar idea but ran against two problems which finally let me give the Jon being 'the Lightbringer' - theory up:

1) When Melisandre asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai in her flames she keep seeing Jon. To me that indicates pretty clearly Jon is Azor Ahai - the wielder of Lightbringer - not Lightbringer it/him/herself.

2) according to the legends three tries were needed to forge Lightbringer. So if we play with the idea that the sword is a metaphor and Lightbringer is a person than it stands to reason that the Lightbringer person would be the third of three children (the older two being the failed tries). Now before Jon came Rhaenys and Aegon, so one might think about seeing those as the two failed tries. Also Lyanna died shortly after Jon's birth so in this scenario Lyanna might be the Nissa Nissa sacrifice. So far so good, ...

BUT

In the legend the first sword is supposed to break when thrust in water. I failed to find anything even remotely tying Rhaenys' death to water. She was stabbed half a hundred times by Amory Lorch, not drowned. And I did not find an Amory Lorch connection to water either.

The legend has the second attempt at forging failing when the sword is plunged into the heart of a captured lion. I also did not manage to come up with a satisfying idea of how to tie Aegon to a lion. The only thing I can come up with is that Tywin - a Lion - ordered Aegon's execution. But where is the 'piercing the Lion's heart' with the sword part? To me the jigsaw puzzle piece does not quite fit. It half-fits. but it seems like I have to force it in.

***

Playing with the above ideas I instead ran into something else:

What if not Jon but Dany is the Lightbringer?

Hm.

1) We get no problem with Jon being glimpsed as Azor Ahai by Melisandre. In fact Jon as Azor Ahai might metaphorically 'wield' Dany. That seems like it might propel the story forward and make sense.

2) Dany also has two older siblings who could be the 'failed tries'. Rhaegar and Viserys.

According to legend the first forging took 30 days and nights, the second forging 50 days and nights, the third forging a whooping 100 days and nights. After Rhaegar's birth it got progressively harder for Aerys and Rhaella to produce more kids (that survived long that is). So maybe there is a similarity here. Although picturing making kids as Azor Ahai's 'labor' is rather ironic.

The first 'try' - Rhaegar - actually died in water (in the shallows of the Ruby Ford).

Then Viserys, the second try, also failed. (Though like with Aegon I admit I find it hard to connect Viserys' death to being plunged into a Lion's heart.) The only  thing I can come up with is that during the time of Viserys' conception and birth Aerys seemed to have had an affair with Joanna (Lion pierced through the heart?) and was alround being nasty towards Tywin.

Finally we have Dany - the third try - who as we know not only survives but actually thrives and is closely linked to fire AND her mother Rhaella died during Dany's birth (Nissa Nissa sacrifice). 

Of course all of this would give us the Mad King Aerys as a Azor Ahai precursor and as the person who forged Lightbringer. That would be supremely ironic (did I mention that already?). Also it would make it necessary for us to assume that the Azor Ahai who forges the 'sword' and the Azor Ahai who wields the 'sword' aren't necessarily the same person.

Whether I am onto something here I have no idea. But I find the idea fun to speculate about so I am throwing it out here.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

30 minutes ago, The North Forgot said:

Him saying they are practically the same and him saying 100% they are the same are two different things though. Also, if that is correct and AAR/TPTWP are the same person, that might still mean that Rhaegar was the one.

If you interpret 

the same way I do, that it is a 5000 year old prophecy, which originally said TPTWP (and AAR if we go by your logic), would forge or make Lightbringer, not literally as a sword, but as a child, and the words have been either simply changed through the years or some of it is lost in translation.

And to the second part where you say "Besides which fAegon ain't no son of Rhaegar!", you might of course be right on this, but why would Varys give that speech to Kevan before he dies if Aegon is fake? Considering he has his "little birds" kill Pycelle and later Kevan, it's not likely IMO that he suspects he's being watched as he would make sure noone else would be close by.

In addition, Tyrion, who is known to pay attention to detail, makes the conclusion that Young Griff is Aegon. There has to be a reason for him to do that, considering everyone "knows" Aegon was killed during the sack of King's Landing.

No he doesn't, review the chapter if you want, his internal thoughts on the matter are never shown.  He knows who the boy is claiming to be, but makes no personal judgement on the matter as far as we know.

[The North Forgot]

9 minutes ago, Amris said:

...

I have to agree that Dany maybe fits better considering what you wrote here. I've also read somewhere that Lightbringer might actually be the Wall, or by extension the Night's Watch. Any thoughts on that?

11 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

No he doesn't, review the chapter if you want, his internal thoughts on the matter are never shown.  He knows who the boy is claiming to be, but makes no personal judgement on the matter as far as we know.

This is from ADWD Tyrion V:

Quote

"Leave off," Griff commanded, "or you will wish you had."

The dwarf ignored him. "The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good. And the tale of how you color it in honor of your dead Tyroshi mother was so touching it almost made me cry. Still, a curious man might wonder why some sellsword's whelp would need a soiled septa to instruct him in the Faith, or a chainless maester to tutor him in history and tongues. And a clever man might question why your father would engage a hedge knight to train you in arms instead of simply sending you off to apprentice with one of the free companies. It is almost as if someone wanted to keep you hidden whilst still preparing you for … what? Now, there's a puzzlement, but I'm sure that in time it will come to me. I must admit, you have noble features for a dead boy."

The boy flushed. "I am not dead."

Yes he claims to be Aegon, but as far as I can tell from this quote noone on the Shy Maid has told that to Tyrion. This combined with Varys' speech to Kevan is why it seems to me that Aegon is the real Aegon.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

59 minutes ago, The North Forgot said:

Him saying they are practically the same and him saying 100% they are the same are two different things though. Also, if that is correct and AAR/TPTWP are the same person, that might still mean that Rhaegar was the one.

If you interpret 

the same way I do, that it is a 5000 year old prophecy, which originally said TPTWP (and AAR if we go by your logic), would forge or make Lightbringer, not literally as a sword, but as a child, and the words have been either simply changed through the years or some of it is lost in translation.

And to the second part where you say "Besides which fAegon ain't no son of Rhaegar!", you might of course be right on this, but why would Varys give that speech to Kevan before he dies if Aegon is fake? Considering he has his "little birds" kill Pycelle and later Kevan, it's not likely IMO that he suspects he's being watched as he would make sure noone else would be close by.

In addition, Tyrion, who is known to pay attention to detail, makes the conclusion that Young Griff is Aegon. There has to be a reason for him to do that, considering everyone "knows" Aegon was killed during the sack of King's Landing.

I take it you have never watched the commentary then? because you just misinterpreted what I said pretty badly. 

watch it from 7 minutes on. 

And yeah Young Griff is Aegon son of Rhaegar and Elia, hahahahah, nope. 

Varys telling Kevan that he is means Jack Shit. It's all psychological, and IIRC he doesn't actually claim him as Rhaegars Aegon? he just leaves it to Kevan to assume. fAegon is undoubtedly not the child of Rhaegar and Elia.  He has Targaryen blood for sure. But he ain't Rhaegars. 

[The North Forgot]

29 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I take it you have never watched the commentary then? because you just misinterpreted what I said pretty badly. 

watch it from 7 minutes on. 

And yeah Young Griff is Aegon son of Rhaegar and Elia, hahahahah, nope. 

Varys telling Kevan that he is means Jack Shit. It's all psychological, and IIRC he doesn't actually claim him as Rhaegars Aegon? he just leaves it to Kevan to assume. fAegon is undoubtedly not the child of Rhaegar and Elia.  He has Targaryen blood for sure. But he ain't Rhaegars. 

He never even mentions AAR in this video, what he say is that "He (Stannis) is given a token of his role as TPTWP by ancient prophecy, and that's the sword Lightbringer"

This is easily contradicted by the fact that yes, the sword is named Lightbringer, but in reality it's a cheap trick, which in backed by Maester Aemon in AFFC - Sam IV: 

Quote

"The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam."

Also, in ADWD - Jon III we have this:

Quote

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

This is another contradiction when we have this from ASOS - Davos IV:

Quote

Davos knelt, and Stannis drew his longsword. Lightbringer, Melisandre had named it; the red sword of heroes, drawn from the fires where the seven gods were consumed. The room seemed to grow brighter as the blade slid from its scabbard. The steel had a glow to it; now orange, now yellow, now red. The air shimmered around it, and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly. But when Stannis touched it to Davos's shoulder, it felt no different than any other longsword. "Ser Davos of House Seaworth," the king said, "are you my true and honest liege man, now and forever?"

"I am, Your Grace."

In conclusion, unless you have another video where GRRM even implies AAR=TPTWP, they might or they might not be. Also the quotes above makes me believe Stannis' sword is not the real Lightbringer.

And to the part about Aegon, you say he's not the son of Rhaegar and Elia, please provide some evidence of this and don't just say he isn't without backing up your claim.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, The North Forgot said:

I have to agree that Dany maybe fits better considering what you wrote here. I've also read somewhere that Lightbringer might actually be the Wall, or by extension the Night's Watch. Any thoughts on that?

This is from ADWD Tyrion V:

Yes he claims to be Aegon, but as far as I can tell from this quote noone on the Shy Maid has told that to Tyrion. This combined with Varys' speech to Kevan is why it seems to me that Aegon is the real Aegon.

The quote you posted is exactly what I described, Tyrion figures out who the boy is claiming to be, but the author seemingly deliberately does not include Tyrions inner thoughts on this matter, only his statement to Faegon.

And Haldon Halfmaester does tell Tyrion, that's what Tyrion wins in the Cyvasse game.

If you want a discussion on Faegon your thread is fine but if you want to discuss Rhaegar you should just remove him from the OP.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, The North Forgot said:

He never even mentions AAR in this video, what he say is that "He (Stannis) is given a token of his role as TPTWP by ancient prophecy, and that's the sword Lightbringer"

This is easily contradicted by the fact that yes, the sword is named Lightbringer, but in reality it's a cheap trick, which in backed by Maester Aemon in AFFC - Sam IV: 

Also, in ADWD - Jon III we have this:

This is another contradiction when we have this from ASOS - Davos IV:

In conclusion, unless you have another video where GRRM even implies AAR=TPTWP, they might or they might not be. Also the quotes above makes me believe Stannis' sword is not the real Lightbringer.

And to the part about Aegon, you say he's not the son of Rhaegar and Elia, please provide some evidence of this and don't just say he isn't without backing up your claim.

Yes and all of the above also implies that they are the same person. Lightbringer is the name of the sword Azor Ahai is said to weild. Mellisandre fakes Stannis a sword to help with his image as Azor Ahai, GRRM refers to "His role as The Prince that was promised, and that token is his sword Lightbringer." So the sword Lightbringer we know belonged to Azor Ahai, it is named in the legend refrenced above. So if GRRM is saying that Stannis receives Lightbringer (No it isn't the real one) from Mel as a token in his (Stannis's) role as The Prince that was Promised, that rather implies that TPtwP and AAR are the same person.  You don't have to be a genius to work this out.

Not to mention that everything that is discussed about the two prophesies especially at the wall in ADWD implies they are the same, Mel uses both names. Maester Aemon, speaks in a manor which implies they are the same. Interchanging one for the other when in discussion.

Non of your quotes contradict that. They simply tell us that the  sword mellisandre gave Stannis is not the real Lightbringer. The truth of the two figures being in fact the same prophesy, is in how it is discussed. 

The fact that the author also uses the name TPtwP when discussing Stannis receiving the sword of Azor Ahai, basically reinforces what the astute reader already figured out during ADWD.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Do you really want to turn this into an fAegon V's Aegon thread? 

Cos if you push this, I can guarantee it will do. Once you open that can of worms it is hard to put them back in. 

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The reason Rhaegar is NOT the prince who was promised is because he's dead and this story is not about him.

[Impbread]

7 hours ago, The North Forgot said:

He never even mentions AAR in this video, what he say is that "He (Stannis) is given a token of his role as TPTWP by ancient prophecy, and that's the sword Lightbringer"

This is easily contradicted by the fact that yes, the sword is named Lightbringer, but in reality it's a cheap trick, which in backed by Maester Aemon in AFFC - Sam IV: 

Also, in ADWD - Jon III we have this:

This is another contradiction when we have this from ASOS - Davos IV:

In conclusion, unless you have another video where GRRM even implies AAR=TPTWP, they might or they might not be. Also the quotes above makes me believe Stannis' sword is not the real Lightbringer.

And to the part about Aegon, you say he's not the son of Rhaegar and Elia, please provide some evidence of this and don't just say he isn't without backing up your claim.

The proof would be all the witnesses who saw the dead prince. Such as Tywin and Ned and Bobby B. If Aegon is really Rhaegars son who is Ilryio talking about when he says red or black a dragon is a dragon when arya is listening to him talk to Varys in GOT? The only character that could be a blackfyre that we have been introduced to is Faegon imo.

[Impbread]

2 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

The reason Rhaegar is NOT the prince who was promised is because he's dead and this story is not about him.

Pretty accurate.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

13 hours ago, Amris said:

I have played with a similar idea but ran against two problems which finally let me give the Jon being 'the Lightbringer' - theory up:

1) When Melisandre asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai in her flames she keep seeing Jon. To me that indicates pretty clearly Jon is Azor Ahai - the wielder of Lightbringer - not Lightbringer it/him/herself.

2) according to the legends three tries were needed to forge Lightbringer. So if we play with the idea that the sword is a metaphor and Lightbringer is a person than it stands to reason that the Lightbringer person would be the third of three children (the older two being the failed tries). Now before Jon came Rhaenys and Aegon, so one might think about seeing those as the two failed tries. Also Lyanna died shortly after Jon's birth so in this scenario Lyanna might be the Nissa Nissa sacrifice. So far so good, ...

BUT

In the legend the first sword is supposed to break when thrust in water. I failed to find anything even remotely tying Rhaenys' death to water. She was stabbed half a hundred times by Amory Lorch, not drowned. And I did not find an Amory Lorch connection to water either.

The legend has the second attempt at forging failing when the sword is plunged into the heart of a captured lion. I also did not manage to come up with a satisfying idea of how to tie Aegon to a lion. The only thing I can come up with is that Tywin - a Lion - ordered Aegon's execution. But where is the 'piercing the Lion's heart' with the sword part? To me the jigsaw puzzle piece does not quite fit. It half-fits. but it seems like I have to force it in.

***

Playing with the above ideas I instead ran into something else:

What if not Jon but Dany is the Lightbringer?

Hm.

1) We get no problem with Jon being glimpsed as Azor Ahai by Melisandre. In fact Jon as Azor Ahai might metaphorically 'wield' Dany. That seems like it might propel the story forward and make sense.

2) Dany also has two older siblings who could be the 'failed tries'. Rhaegar and Viserys.

According to legend the first forging took 30 days and nights, the second forging 50 days and nights, the third forging a whooping 100 days and nights. After Rhaegar's birth it got progressively harder for Aerys and Rhaella to produce more kids (that survived long that is). So maybe there is a similarity here. Although picturing making kids as Azor Ahai's 'labor' is rather ironic.

The first 'try' - Rhaegar - actually died in water (in the shallows of the Ruby Ford).

Then Viserys, the second try, also failed. (Though like with Aegon I admit I find it hard to connect Viserys' death to being plunged into a Lion's heart.) The only  thing I can come up with is that during the time of Viserys' conception and birth Aerys seemed to have had an affair with Joanna (Lion pierced through the heart?) and was alround being nasty towards Tywin.

Finally we have Dany - the third try - who as we know not only survives but actually thrives and is closely linked to fire AND her mother Rhaella died during Dany's birth (Nissa Nissa sacrifice). 

Of course all of this would give us the Mad King Aerys as a Azor Ahai precursor and as the person who forged Lightbringer. That would be supremely ironic (did I mention that already?). Also it would make it necessary for us to assume that the Azor Ahai who forges the 'sword' and the Azor Ahai who wields the 'sword' aren't necessarily the same person.

Whether I am onto something here I have no idea. But I find the idea fun to speculate about so I am throwing it out here.

 

I like it. As a person who believes all 3 prophecies are different people this works well for me. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Do you really want to turn this into an fAegon V's Aegon thread? 

Cos if you push this, I can guarantee it will do. Once you open that can of worms it is hard to put them back in. 

 

Anyone can push I'll never change my mind he's fake. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

11 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The quote you posted is exactly what I described, Tyrion figures out who the boy is claiming to be, but the author seemingly deliberately does not include Tyrions inner thoughts on this matter, only his statement to Faegon.

And Haldon Halfmaester does tell Tyrion, that's what Tyrion wins in the Cyvasse game.<<<<<<<

If you want a discussion on Faegon your thread is fine but if you want to discuss Rhaegar you should just remove him from the OP.

Agreededdededed!

[cgrav]

The Prince who Was Promised... as in, "Promise me, Ned". 

But generally my opinion is that Azor Ahai is pure myth, representing a kind of person rather than a literal person in Planetos history, and therefore the role can be filled by multiple people. 

And when you think about it, isn't it pretty circular if the "promise" refers only to the prophecy itself? The "promise" has to refer to something other than its own prediction, or else it's nonsense.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

The reason Rhaegar is NOT the prince who was promised is because he's dead and this story is not about him.

This is succinct and to the point, and I utterly agree. 

5 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Anyone can push I'll never change my mind he's fake. 

Yup, I'm yet to hear a single convincing argument that fAegon is real, the boy is a fake. And there isn't a scrap of evidence to the contrary. Varys telling Kevan he is Aegon is ambiguous at best. He has his own agenda, and narrativley he has no reason to have "saved" Rhaegar's son. All clues which can be assessed as unbiased point to him being a Blackfyre. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is succinct and to the point, and I utterly agree. 

 

 

17 hours ago, Impbread said:

Pretty accurate.

Thanks:)

Sometimes these theories are the result of not taking a step back and looking at it in terms of the rules of literature.  There is no reason for an author to make the prophesized prince (the Aragorn) someone who died before the story began.