The Blackfyre v2.0

Lost Melnibonean · December 14, 2016

In the older thread...

...I laid out an argument for how the George had begun laying the foundation for the Blackfyre as early as Game, and then went on to discuss all things Blackfyre related, but the thread was closed for length.

I will start this thread by stating that Daemon Blackfyre had nine kids, the twins Aegon and Aemon, Calla, another daughter, Daemon, Haegon, Aenys, another boy, and another boy, in that order.

Before Rohanne was widowed, she and Daemon were wed for 12 years, and they had 7 sons, the first 2 of which were twins, and 2 daughters.

Although the number of daughters has not been specified, the plural is used so we should assume that there were more than one. (The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings, Daeron II.) And in the absence of additional twins, we should assume that there were only 2 daughters since 8 births in 12 years would have required Rohanne to have given birth every 1.5 years. Notably, Baelor Breakspear was wed to Jena Dondarrion, and they had two sons, both of which died relatively young and without surviving issue. At the time of the rebellion, they would have been of an approximate age with Daemon Blackfyre’s sons. The remainder of Daeron’s grandchildren were born around the time of or after the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Here is the money quote...

Quote

"I dreamed it. This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg, I dreamed it all, just as I once dreamed of my brothers lying dead. They were twelve and I was only seven, so they laughed at me, and died. I am two-and-twenty now, and I trust my dreams."

The Mystery Knight

So, Daemon and Rohanne were married in 184, shortly after Aegon IV died, and Aegon and Aemon were born that same year. Daemon’s third son, wee Daemon, was five years younger, so he was born in 189. We know that Daemon had four more sons in the seven years before he died. Unless some of them were twins, we should assume that Rohanne was popping out a boy every 1.75 years after wee Daemon was born, leaving no time for the two daughters. That suggests that Calla and her sister were born in the four years between the twins and wee Daemon.

There is a little more support for the proposition that Calla and her sister were older than wee Daemon in that Daemon I betrothed Calla to Aegor before the rebellion. (The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings, Daeron II.) Assuming Calla was older than wee Daemon, she would have been betrothed at about 10 years of age, which would be young but not too young. Of course, The Hayford-Lannister marriage shows that a gal is never too young to wed, but the chiding Tyrek took, and Eddard’s reaction to Robert’s wish to betroth Sansa to Joffrey, when she was 11, at least suggested that girls younger than 10 were not often betrothed.

(My conclusion assumes that the only twins born to Daemon Blackfyre were Aegon and Aemon.)

ETA

Here is what we know, what we can discern quite reasonably, and some wild, but not crackpot, speculation...

Daeron II was born in 153.

Maekar I was born c. 176. Daemon I was born in 170.

Aegon V was born in 200. Haegon was born c. 193.

Jaehaerys II was born in 225.

Aerys II was born in 244.

Adjusting for the fact that Daemon I, who was half-brother to Daeron II, was closer in age to Daeron’s son Maekar I, we can say that Daemon I and Maekar I were of the same generation, and the Blackfyre was about six years older than the Targaryen. In the next generation, we see that Haegon I Blackfyre was about seven years older than Aegon V Targaryen.

We know that Haegon was born between 190 and 196, and that he was killed during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion in 219, making him about 26, give or take a couple of years. And we know that Daemon III was killed during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion in 236. If Daemon III died at about the same age as his father and his grandfather, then Daemon III would have been born about 210, when Haegon I was about 17, which makes sense, give or take a year or two, since Daemon III was Haegon’s eldest son. While it is likely that Daemon III could have been born even earlier, it is more likely that he was born a bit later.

Now, we can discern quite reasonably that Calla was older than Haegon, and that she was likely born between the birth of Daemon’s twins Aegon and Aemon in 184, and the birth of Daemon II in 189. I think 186 is most likely since Daemon I was wed to Rohanne in 184. So, she would have been 10, or a year or two younger, when she fled to Tyrosh with her betrothed Bittersteel in 196. As well as his betrothed, Bittersteel fled to Tyrosh with Daemons’ wife Rohanne, at least one more of their daughters, and their five surviving sons, including Daemon II, who was seven, Haegon I, who was likely three to six, Aenys, who was likely about 3, and the youngest, unnamed boys, who were likely three or younger, possibly even still buns in the oven. Bittersteel also retreated with the symbol of the Blackfyre cause, the Valyrian steel longsword called Blackfyre. Presumably, Bittersteel and other Blackfyre veterans left Rohanne and Calla and the young boys with their kin in Tyrosh, nursing on resentment, as they went off to serve in various free companies of Essos.

The next date we have is 211, 15 years later, when Dunk and Egg chance upon Daemon II and the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Daemon II was 22. Great attention was paid to the facts that Bittersteel did not accompany Daemon II, and that Daemon II was not wielding Blackfyre. Daemon’s principal supporter was Gormon Peake, Lord of Starpike, who had lost two other castles for supporting Daemon I in the First Blackfyre Rebellion. I think it is safe to assume that Gormon hoped to have Daemon II usurp the throne of Aerys I, and thereby regain his castles and to become hand of the king. I think we can also assume that Gormon’s move represented a power struggle for leadership of the Blackfyre cause, since he was apparently at odds with Bittersteel over Daemon II, and we are told that Bittersteel was plotting in Tyrosh, while Gormon appeared to be trying to rally Blackfyre supporters in Westeros at the Whitewalls tourney. After a few victories, Gormon expected Bittersteel and the other Blackfyre exiles to cross the Narrow Sea. But Bloodraven foiled the plot at Whitewalls, Gormon lost his head, and Daemon II was imprisoned in the Red Keep. He was held hostage against Bittersteel and Haegon I until his death within a few years. Daemon II would have been near 26, nearly the same age as his father when he died during the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

In 212, the year after the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, Bittersteel formed the Golden Company, calling on Westeros’s exiles and Blackfyre sympathizers. It is likely that Calla would have been about 26, or a year or two younger, Haegon I would have been about 19 to 22, Aenys would have been about 19, and their two younger brothers would have been about 16 to 19. Presumably, Haegon I and his younger brothers would have been knighted by then, and serving in the Golden Company. I have my doubts about Aenys. I get the impression that he was more bookish, and we can assume that he operated a bit outside of Bittersteel's influence given the later actions that led to his death.

Seven years later, in 219, Bittersteel had crowned Haegon I, and together, they launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion with the support of the Golden Company. They lost, fighting against Bloodraven, Maekar I, Aerion Brightflame, and Aegon V. Haegon I was slain, and Bittersteel was imprisoned in the Red Keep. King Aerys sentenced Bittersteel to the Night’s Watch, but Bittersteel was rescued on the way to Eastwatch and returned to the remnants of the Golden Company. He crowned Daemon III that year, who was probably around 9, give or take a few years. Calla would have been about 33, Aenys would have been about 26, and their two younger brothers would have been in their early to mid-twenties, if they had survived the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

We have to fast forward 14 years, to 233. Daemon III would have been around 23. Calla would have been about 47, perhaps succeeding Rohanne as the matriarch of House Blackfyre. Aenys would have been about 40, and their two younger brothers, if still alive, would have been in their late 30s. So, it is very possible that new Blackfyre grandchildren were being born. It is also very possible that new Blackfyre great-grandchildren were being born at this time. If we assume that Calla began giving Bittersteel children at 15, the oldest would likely be just over 30, and the youngest could be the age of a page. On the other hand, we have every reason to assume that Daemon II did not have any children since there was no indication that he was married, and since he was not interested in the process of making them. Likewise, there is no suggestion that Aenys was married or had any children. We can only guess as to whether Calla’s younger sister or sisters, and her two youngest brothers survived and had any children. But I think we can assume that at least some Blackfyre children and grandchildren were being wed to notable families in the Golden Company and the Free Cities. To put it into perspective, the children of the youngest Blackfyre children and the oldest Blackfyre grandchildren would have been born around the same time as Jeor Mormont, Stevron Frey, Hoster and Brynden Tully, Barristan Selmy, Wyman Manderly, Aerys Targaryen, Tywin and Kevan Lannister, and Doran Martell. So, these men were about the same age as the younger grandchildren and older great-grandchildren of Daemon I. And those younger Blackfyre grandchildren and older Blackfyre great grandchildren born in in the 230s and 240s presumably included Maelys and his cousin Daemon.

In 233, Maekar I died with the succession in doubt, so his hand Bloodraven called a great council to select the new monarch. As the council debated the merits of Vaella, Maegor, Aemon, and Aegon, Aenys Blackfyre put forth his own claim, which was especially curious since Bittersteel had already crowned the son of Aenys’s older brother. In any event, Bloodraven had him promptly executed as a warning to any Blackfyre sympathezers. Aegon V was crowned, and he sentenced Bloodraven to the Night’s Watch for the murder.

Three years later, in 236, Daemon III, who was now about 26, backed by Bittersteel, who was now 64, and the Golden Company, crossed the Narrow Sea again, but Aegon V and his three sons put a quick end to the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion as Duncan the Tall slew Daemon III, and Bittersteel retreated for the last time. Bittersteel suffered a fatal wound in battle in the Disputed Lands five years later in 241.

We are told that after Bittersteel, Daemon Blackfyre’s descendants commanded the Golden Company until the death of Maelys the Monstrous during the War the of the Ninepenny Kings in 260, 19 years after the death of Bittersteel. All we know of those 19 years is that at some point Maelys Blackfyre fought his cousin Daemon Blackfyre for control of the Golden Company. We can reasonably assume that one or two more senior Blackfyre sons or grandsons preceeded Maelys and his cousin Daemon, and that Maelys and his cousin Daemon were either younger grandchildren or older great-grandchildren of Daemon I. They would not have known Daemon I or Haegon I or even Daemon III, of course, but they would have squired for, and been knighted by Bittersteel or maybe even one of Daemon's youngest sons or older grandchildren. And they would have grown up among the sons and grandsons of men who had given their lives fighting Bloodraven and the Targaryens for the Blackfyre cause. By 258, though, when Maelys joined the Band of Nine, he was the last remaining Blackfyre along the male line of descent. However, we have to recall those Blackfyre daughters and grandchildren that were likely wed to notable families in the Golden Company and the Free Cities in the 220s and 230s, and the other children they had in the 230s, 240s, and 250s.

The following generation, including perhaps an orphan in Lys and/or a young bravo in Pentos, would have been born in the 250s, 260s, and 270s, like Mace Tyrell, Rhaegar Targaryen, Robert and Stannis Baratheon, Brandon and Eddard Stark, Merrett Frey, Cersei, Jaime and even Tyrion Lannister, Petyr Baelish, and even Ronnet Connington.

Lord Corlys Velaryon · December 15, 2016

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In the older thread...

Oh cool, I'll have to dig through this over the w/e. But I think GRRM had Aegon waiting in the wings by the time AGoT was published (smashed head allows possibility & I think as early as after ACoK was published he only confirmed that Rhaenys had been killed out of the two) & certainly ACoK (mummer's dragon in HotU). And by ASoS publication had moved to the Blackfyre Aegon instead, with AFfC & ADwD (intended to be one book, something many people forget) building on it.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I will start this thread by stating that Daemon Blackfyre had nine kids, the twins Aegon and Aemon, Calla, another daughter, Daemon, Haegon, Aenys, another boy, and another boy, in that order.

Very likely. Particularly with the 5 years between the twins & Daemon the Younger, though as I said in the Small Questions thread that I wonder if they may have had a 3rd daughter & there's the possibility that the last two sons &/or a daughter & a son were twins.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Although Daena had the best absolute primogeniture claim to her brother’s crown, she had little support, and her uncle, Viserys II, took the throne.

This certainly is the case for normal lordly succession, but I think the First Men royal dynasties practiced succession akin to that which the Targs came to adopt & that the Andal royal dynasties that replaced/integrated with them followed the same for continuity of tradition. And indeed, this was one of the main reasons for Jaehaerys not only passing over Rhaenys in favour of Baelon (& then so Viserys over Laenor), but also (to a lesser degree) how he came to the throne himself over his niece, Aerea. Also, that the Great Houses generally maintained it for themselves (particularly the more FM associated Starks & Greyjoys - hell, it seems to be practiced by all of the Ironborn Houses) to secure their rule over their vassals. I really don't like this so pro-patriarchal succession model especially, however I think it's been long entrenched in Westerosi society & the Great Houses & Targaryens continued it for "stability". And Viserys had ruled as the greatest Hand (& thereafter) since Barth for almost 30 years, so Daena (particularly after Baelor imprisoned her, Rhaena & Elaena) was always going to lose that one (even if she had Rhaena or Elaena's personality instead).

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aegon and Naerys had one son, Daeron II, who was born in 153, and who was rumored to have been fathered by Aemon in truth

Disagree here. Daeron was Aegon's, not Aemon's.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Around this time, Aegon fathered the last of his so-called great bastards, Shiera Seastar, on Sweet Serenei of Lys.

Yeah, I'm guessing she was born c.181AC. As an aside, I think Serenei was the last Rogare descendant (of the male-line &/or directly from Lys, anyway).

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daemon Blackfyre, now 14, Aegor called Bittersteel, now 12, and Brynden called Bloodraven, now 9, were no longer bastards in the eyes of the law, but potential rivals to the sons of Daeron II.

All the more interesting because they all grew up together. TWoIaF obviously mentions the (though likely "friendly" to a degree, at least for a time) rivalry between Baelor & Daemon, & it's very likely that Brynden & Maekar's (perhaps less friendly) developed from their childhood at the Red Keep together, particularly as they were probably about the same age as B&D were.

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He wed Daemon Blackfyre to Rohanne, the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, as had been arranged by Aegon IV, and he granted a tract of land near the Blackwater to Daemon.

Particularly if Rohanne carried the twins full-term (there's nothing besides perhaps the tight timing to suggest she may not have), this was sorted very quickly. Indeed I wonder if the Archon, Rohanne, &/or a representative of theirs was/were in KL itself at/just after Aegon's death ...

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

However, Daemon had developed a passion for Daenerys, who some said, returned the affection. Some also said Daemon even wished to take Daenerys as a second wife.

I think Daenerys did at least to some degree - they were close in age, but Daemon older, & obviously also grew up together where she would've seen him grow into the young man he became. And I think he did, but obviously Daeron's refusal was not enough of a problem for years later (if at all, especially once Rohanne more than proved her own fertility & Daenerys had her own children & assimilated so well into Sunspear).

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As Dorne found favor in Daeron’s court, the marcher knights and lords of the Reach and the Stormlands began to favor Daemon Blackfyre.

Which is why I subscribe to the thought that Daeron was at least as focused on blood (specifically, retaining Valyrian features & reintroducing in at least Baelor) for his sons' wives (at least Jena, confirmed cousin Aelinor, & GEotD-descended Dyanna) as he was on politics (admittedly, the blood purity also was political against Daemon & his Valyrian-featured children. Anyway, because he completely neglected the Reach in the royal marriages he made (also Elaena married to Ronnel Penrose - & so seemingly sharing the same Targaryen ancestry as Aelinor), if not essentially from his court (certainly the likes of Gormy anyway).

Lord Varys · December 15, 2016

@Lost Melnibonean

Did you also consider the possibility of a posthumous birth? Daemon impregnating Rohanne again shortly before the Redgrass Field? That way the birth of his last child could easily have been only in 197 AC, long after Daemon's death (as it was with Daenerys Stormborn).

In addition, if Rohanne's children were handed to the care of wet-nurses as soon as they were born she could have been pregnant every year. A nine months pregnancy allows for a three month break each year, after all. That could greatly increase the number of her daughters.

I'm with you that Calla and at least one other daughter would have been born between the twins and Daemon the Younger yet we have no way to determine the number of daughters born in those four years (aside from that an absolute number would have been three pregnancies if we assume Daemon the Younger was born early on in 289 AC.

And I'm actually liking the idea of another set of twins, perhaps even two, to actually reduce the number of pregnancies this poor woman had to live through. I don't think it is very likely that Calla had a twin-sister but the next daughters born after her could have been twins, and there could have been another set of non-identical twins later down. For instance, Aenys Blackfyre could have had a twin-sister whom he also married. None of the younger sons of Daemon I we know - Daemon the Younger, Haegon, and Aenys seem to have had twin-brothers. But the last two sons easily enough could have been another set of identical twins.

And if Rohanne had many more pregnancies she could easily enough have had up to 4-5 daughters in total, not just two.

Thinking about the possible marriages of the Blackfyre children I've long entertained the idea that if we assume Bittersteel went through with his marriage to Calla (which I think he did in exile to strengthen his hold over the Blackfyre children and cement his role as their guardian and champion) then I think Haegon Blackfyre eventually married one of his older sisters as well, with the younger remaining sisters - if they were any - marrying either other brothers or into Tyrosh nobility.

In fact, there is a weird chance that Kiera of Tyrosh was actually not only a close relation of Rohanne of Tyrosh (which has been suggested before) but also a Blackfyre descendant through the female line (assuming one of the Blackfyre daughters married into a Tyroshi noble family, eventually giving birth to Kiera).

I further entertained the notion that Daemon III Blackfyre was married to one of Bittersteel's daughters by Calla, again in an attempt ensure his control of the next Blackfyre pretender of his own choosing. Aenys Blackfyre's idea to claim the Iron Throne himself could come from the fact that he was married to one of his sisters, too (or not).

I think the Blackfyres would have very much stuck to the Targaryen practice of incestuous marriages in a way to show that they were the 'true royal dynasty' in comparison to the line of Daeron Falseborn where incest was not possible because Daeron II had no daughters and chose to marry his sister to the Prince of Dorne rather than to one of his own sons (or Daemon Blackfyre). In addition, there is the fact that the Blackfyres would also have been very interested in preserving their Valyrian looks. A Blackfyre looking as Valyrian as Baelor Breakspear would have had difficulties rallying followers to his cause and I'm pretty sure Bittersteel and the Blackfyres themselves realized that.

This brings up the question of Rohanne of Tyrosh's looks. Was she of ancient Valyrian ancestry? If not, how many of her children inherited her looks? How many Blackfyre sons actually resembled their father? If Rohanne has Valyrian ancestors, is she perhaps distantly related to the Targaryens (perhaps through a Velaryon marriage in the past or one of the daughters of Rhaena and Garmund?)?

Shuvuuia · December 15, 2016

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, there is a weird chance that Kiera of Tyrosh was actually not only a close relation of Rohanne of Tyrosh (which has been suggested before) but also a Blackfyre descendant through the female line (assuming one of the Blackfyre daughters married into a Tyroshi noble family, eventually giving birth to Kiera).

Would that work? Assuming a BFyre daughter is younger than the twins, she should be married and give birth and her daughter-(Kiera) then should reach childbearing age and give birth at least once, all between the Rebellion and the Great Spring Sickness.

(Poor Rohanne)

Lost Melnibonean · December 15, 2016

Oops

Vaedys Targaryen · December 15, 2016

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This brings up the question of Rohanne of Tyrosh's looks. Was she of ancient Valyrian ancestry? If not, how many of her children inherited her looks? How many Blackfyre sons actually resembled their father? If Rohanne has Valyrian ancestors, is she perhaps distantly related to the Targaryens (perhaps through a Velaryon marriage in the past or one of the daughters of Rhaena and Garmund?)?

In Volantis, there is the Old Blood inside the Black Walls and in Lys the blood of Old Valyria runs so thick that even some of the common people display the Valyrian looks.

The Free Cities, with the exception of Braavos, were run by individuals chosen by the Freehold and we know that when the Doom happened, some of the common people and nobles rose in rebellion against them and killed them, but it would not surprise me if there are still quite a few families with ties to Old Valyria and, thusly have the the Valyrian looks, in positions of power.

Lost Melnibonean · December 15, 2016

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Lost Melnibonean

Did you also consider the possibility of a posthumous birth? Daemon impregnating Rohanne again shortly before the Redgrass Field? That way the birth of his last child could easily have been only in 197 AC, long after Daemon's death (as it was with Daenerys Stormborn).

In addition, if Rohanne's children were handed to the care of wet-nurses as soon as they were born she could have been pregnant every year. A nine months pregnancy allows for a three month break each year, after all. That could greatly increase the number of her daughters.

I'm with you that Calla and at least one other daughter would have been born between the twins and Daemon the Younger yet we have no way to determine the number of daughters born in those four years (aside from that an absolute number would have been three pregnancies if we assume Daemon the Younger was born early on in 289 AC.

And I'm actually liking the idea of another set of twins, perhaps even two, to actually reduce the number of pregnancies this poor woman had to live through. I don't think it is very likely that Calla had a twin-sister but the next daughters born after her could have been twins, and there could have been another set of non-identical twins later down. For instance, Aenys Blackfyre could have had a twin-sister whom he also married. None of the younger sons of Daemon I we know - Daemon the Younger, Haegon, and Aenys seem to have had twin-brothers. But the last two sons easily enough could have been another set of identical twins.

And if Rohanne had many more pregnancies she could easily enough have had up to 4-5 daughters in total, not just two.

Thinking about the possible marriages of the Blackfyre children I've long entertained the idea that if we assume Bittersteel went through with his marriage to Calla (which I think he did in exile to strengthen his hold over the Blackfyre children and cement his role as their guardian and champion) then I think Haegon Blackfyre eventually married one of his older sisters as well, with the younger remaining sisters - if they were any - marrying either other brothers or into Tyrosh nobility.

In fact, there is a weird chance that Kiera of Tyrosh was actually not only a close relation of Rohanne of Tyrosh (which has been suggested before) but also a Blackfyre descendant through the female line (assuming one of the Blackfyre daughters married into a Tyroshi noble family, eventually giving birth to Kiera).

I further entertained the notion that Daemon III Blackfyre was married to one of Bittersteel's daughters by Calla, again in an attempt ensure his control of the next Blackfyre pretender of his own choosing. Aenys Blackfyre's idea to claim the Iron Throne himself could come from the fact that he was married to one of his sisters, too (or not).

I think the Blackfyres would have very much stuck to the Targaryen practice of incestuous marriages in a way to show that they were the 'true royal dynasty' in comparison to the line of Daeron Falseborn where incest was not possible because Daeron II had no daughters and chose to marry his sister to the Prince of Dorne rather than to one of his own sons (or Daemon Blackfyre). In addition, there is the fact that the Blackfyres would also have been very interested in preserving their Valyrian looks. A Blackfyre looking as Valyrian as Baelor Breakspear would have had difficulties rallying followers to his cause and I'm pretty sure Bittersteel and the Blackfyres themselves realized that.

This brings up the question of Rohanne of Tyrosh's looks. Was she of ancient Valyrian ancestry? If not, how many of her children inherited her looks? How many Blackfyre sons actually resembled their father? If Rohanne has Valyrian ancestors, is she perhaps distantly related to the Targaryens (perhaps through a Velaryon marriage in the past or one of the daughters of Rhaena and Garmund?)?

I had not considered a posthumous birth. And yes, I suppose she could have given birth at a higher rate, but is that really plausible? And aren't even more risky during childbirth? I think limiting the number of descendants to nine makes more sense, and the storyteller can still do a lot with just that and not stretching the plausibility.

But I agree, there could have been more daughters. Even if we give her another half-year to give birth, another set of twins, and even more frequent conceptions, given the prevailing mortality rate, it might not have mattered, when considering who sutvives to procreate little black dragonlets.

Lord Varys · December 15, 2016

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I had not considered a posthumous birth. And yes, I suppose she could have given birth at a higher rate, but is that really plausible?

Is it really plausible that Daemon Blackfyre has seven sons and at least two daughters if we compare him to the number of children the Targaryens had on average? In general married women tend to get pregnant a lot of times in the middle ages thus I find little reason to believe Rohanne is an exception in regards to the number of pregnancies she went through. Queen Alysanne had nine thirteen children and nine of them lived to adulthood but we have no idea if she was pregnant only thirteen times nor whether she had any miscarriages or stillbirths which are not counted among her thirteen children. We also don't know whether she had those thirteen children over, say 20-25 years or only in 13-15 years. The fact that her portrait with Jaehaerys I and her eldest surviving son Prince Aemon depicts her as a pregnant woman suggests she had quite a few children in quick succession.

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And aren't even more risky during childbirth? I think limiting the number of descendants to nine makes more sense, and the storyteller can still do a lot with just that and not stretching the plausibility.

Sure, but it depends on the storyteller's intention, doesn't it? We don't know what those are yet. If George intends to have several incestuous marriages among the Blackfyre sons, for instance, then he might want Daemon to have more than just two daughters (if we go with the assumption that Bittersteel eventually married Calla Blackfyre).

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But I agree, there could have been more daughters. Even if we give her another half-year to give birth, another set of twins, and even more frequent conceptions, given the prevailing mortality rate, it might not have mattered, when considering who sutvives to procreate little black dragonlets.

There is not necessarily a reason to assume that any of Rohanne's children died. Alyssa Velaryon gave Aenys I five healthy children. Only little Vaella died in the cradle and she apparently had neither miscarriages nor stillbirths. The same goes for Catelyn and many other mothers in the story.

Well, all bets are off trying to determine the number of Daemon Blackfyre's grandchildren. I and others have speculated a lot about that topic in the past but all you can say is that there were four sons of Daemon Blackfyre's who lived to have children of their own, that Haegon Blackfyre had at least two sons (one of which was Daemon III Blackfyre) and that at least two of the others must have had sons as well. Daemon (IV) Blackfyre cannot have been a brother of Daemon III due to his name thus he must have been either a son of Aenys or of one of the other unknown sons. The same goes for Maelys Blackfyre, who was the cousin (likely a first cousin) of Daemon (IV).

But this is only true if Daemon (IV) and Maelys actually are grandsons of Daemon I. If they are great-grandsons then things might be different. Daemon (IV) could then be son of Daemon III and Maelys could be a descendant of the younger brother of Daemon III. Or the line of Haegon was completely destroyed at the Wendwater Bridge with Daemon (IV) and Maelys being grandsons of Aenys or the two younger sons.

We just don't know.

On the basis of Maelys' portrait in TWoIaF I prefer the assumption that that both he and Daemon (IV) actually are grandsons of Daemon I. Maelys doesn't young very young. He could easily be already in his forties or so, and there is no reason not to believe one of the younger sons might have had children later in life, or at least (a) son(s) later in life.

The vibe I get is that Daemon III wasn't exactly all that old (certainly not yet a man grown) when Bittersteel crowned him 'king'. That could make it not unlikely that most grandchildren of Daemon I were born in 210s or early 220s.

Calla's children by Bittersteel might have been older but if they had any sons I expect them to have died without issue, perhaps in the Third Rebellion or during one of the many campaigns in the Disputed Lands and elsewhere in Essos.

We should not forget that being a sellsword is a dangerous lifestyle. Many Blackfyres we don't know anything about might have met ignominious ends during some silly campaign in Essos. It could even be that not all four sons who technically could have had issue actually had issue.

2 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

In Volantis, there is the Old Blood inside the Black Walls and in Lys the blood of Old Valyria runs so thick that even some of the common people display the Valyrian looks.

Sure, but we are talking about the family of the Archon of Tyrosh in the 280s AC. We have know idea whether that particular family has a Valyrian ancestry. Could be but that's not a given.

4 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

Would that work? Assuming a BFyre daughter is younger than the twins, she should be married and give birth and her daughter-(Kiera) then should reach childbearing age and give birth at least once, all between the Rebellion and the Great Spring Sickness.

(Poor Rohanne)

Occasionally there are children marrying way beneath the usual marriage age. Valarr-Kiera clearly is an arranged marriage, and we don't know when it was arranged nor when it happened. Valarr could easily enough have only married after the Ashford tourney very shortly before the Great Spring Sickness (or shortly before the tourney). Let's say Kiera was only 12-13 in 209 when Valarr died it could have worked. Her Blackfyre mother would then only have been roughly the same age when she gave birth to her.

I don't think that's very likely, though. But Kiera could still be cousin of the Blackfyres on their mother's side if she is a sister or cousin of Rohanne's.

Rhaenys_Targaryen · December 16, 2016

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to Daemon Blackfyre's familial relations, there is a thread here...

The Blackfyre v2.0

I just can't follow multiple conversations.

Then I'll reply here

22 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Thinking out loud here... Are we sure Valarr was wed to Kiera after the rebellion? Baelor was the same age as Daemon, and Daemon had 12-year-old twins. Yes, it seems much more likely that Valarr would have been wed soon after war.

It is surprising that the heir to the crown prince would be wed to the daughter of the head of state harboring rebels. Didn't Bittersteel serve with the Second Sons for a bit? Perhaps during this time, the Archon agreed to keep Rohanne and his grandchildren safe, and out of mischief, and perhaps the deal was sealed by wedding Valarr to Kiera? Or perhaps Kiera was from a rival Tyroshi family, and perhaps Daeron intervened in Tyroshi politics?

That is the most likely timing, IMO. Daemon married young (at the age of thirteen, he would turn fourteen later that year), and had children immediately, but even these children were only eleven at the start of the war (and twelve at the time of their deaths). Even if Baelor married that young as well, and Valarr was born about nine months after his wedding, the chance that Valarr would have been married to Kiera at the age of eleven/twelve is not that high.

At the time of her marriage, Rohanne was the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh. However, the man who had been the Archon in 184 AC does not have to have been the Archon by 196 AC anymore. If Rohanne's father had died, a new Archon would have been elected in his place.

I think that it is likely that Rohanne and her children were staying with Rohanne's family after the rebellion. But that doesn't have to have been a problem for a wedding between Valarr and the daughter of the new Archon, if Kiera was indeed the Archon's daughter. In fact, such a wedding would prevent the Archon from ever considering giving support to Rohanne's children and Aegor.

On 15-12-2016 at 4:09 PM, Lord Varys said:

In fact, there is a weird chance that Kiera of Tyrosh was actually not only a close relation of Rohanne of Tyrosh (which has been suggested before) but also a Blackfyre descendant through the female line (assuming one of the Blackfyre daughters married into a Tyroshi noble family, eventually giving birth to Kiera).

&

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Occasionally there are children marrying way beneath the usual marriage age. Valarr-Kiera clearly is an arranged marriage, and we don't know when it was arranged nor when it happened. Valarr could easily enough have only married after the Ashford tourney very shortly before the Great Spring Sickness (or shortly before the tourney). Let's say Kiera was only 12-13 in 209 when Valarr died it could have worked. Her Blackfyre mother would then only have been roughly the same age when she gave birth to her.

Only 13 years passed between the end of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the deaths of Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys. Calla would have been 11 years old at most when the First Blackfyre Rebellion ended. Even if she had given birth at such a young age, the idea that Daeron II would have been willing to marry the heir of his heir to Aegor's daughter is very, very small. Any other daughters of Daemon would have been even younger than Calla.

Kiera had given birth to at least two children by Valarr, and even if one of them had been stillborn only after Valarr's own death, it practically rules out her being the child of a daughter of Daemon and whoever that daughter might have married.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that her portrait with Jaehaerys I and her eldest surviving son Prince Aemon depicts her as a pregnant woman suggests she had quite a few children in quick succession.

The fact that her portrait displays her pregnant tells us that she was pregnant at the time when the portrait was being made. Aemon is depicted on the portrait too, if I'm recalling it correctly, and while Alyssa is absent (perhaps they only wanted to depict the royal couple with their heir?), the only thing that this suggests is that Aemon and Baelon likely were born rather quickly after one another (considering Aemon's youth in the image).

It says nothing about the children who came before, or after, however.

Lost Melnibonean · December 17, 2016

10 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Only 13 years passed between the end of the Blackfyre Rebellion and the deaths of Daeron II, Valarr, and Matarys. Calla would have been 11 years old at most when the First Blackfyre Rebellion ended. Even if she had given birth at such a young age, the idea that Daeron II would have been willing to marry the heir of his heir to Aegor's daughter is very, very small. Any other daughters of Daemon would have been even younger than Calla.

Kiera had given birth to at least two children by Valarr, and even if one of them had been stillborn only after Valarr's own death, it practically rules out her being the child of a daughter of Daemon and whoever that daughter might have married.

I think you are right.

Lost Melnibonean · December 17, 2016

I am adding this to the OP...