Lord Varys Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I am wondering, then, why you are feeling the need to be responding to a post that is beginning with, "this is speculation," by saying, "we don’t know if that's true." Well, because I was commenting on your speculation. After all, this is a discussion board, right? Continuing the actual thing - I agree that Aenys Blackfyre most likely wasn't very close to Daemon III and Bittersteel when he pushed his own claim and attended the Great Council yet we have no basis for arguing that they never were close before or that Aenys did not support his elder brother Haegon during the Third Rebellion. He could easily enough have only become disgruntled when Bittersteel decided to crown Haegon's son Daemon rather than offering 'the crown' to him. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: The position of Archon is not heriditary. So while an Archon's brother, or cousin etc. could potentially be elected Archon upon the former Archon's death, I wouldn't call it the most likely scenario. The Archon's position doesn't have to be hereditary for Rohanne's family to dominate Tyroshi politics for a longer period of time. This kind of thing happened in Valyria and Lys, too. I'm not saying it was the case in Tyrosh at this time but it very well could have been. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: And if Rohanne's father (or any other relative of her's) was still the Archon at the time of the first Blackfyre Rebellion, why was there no support from Tyrosh in the war? To me, the absence of any mention of such support suggests that her family no longer ruled Tyrosh. Perhaps because Rohanne's family didn't care about her husband all that much? Or because they didn't want to get entangled in Westerosi politics? And who knows - perhaps Daeron II was actually on very good footing with the Archon of Tyrosh after he arranged Daemon's marriage to Rohanne? After all, Daeron II was the king not Daemon. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: I can't say I consider this to be likely. Why would she not receive the name "Blackfyre"? And why would Daeron II, and later Aerys I (or Maekar I) agree to betroth his (indirect) heir to the daughter of the man against who they had fought a large war, and whose siblings had formed another two rebellions? I'm not saying this is the most likeliest scenario. We would need quite a few twists to make this whole thing believable. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: The Blackfyre's believed they had a right to the throne and seem to have been proud of their heritage. I strongly doubt they would refuse to give the name "Blackfyre" to any child of Daemon (even those possibly born after his death), considering the child would have been legitimate. That would have been Rohanne's call, not the Blackfyres. She was the mother of her children and we don't know anything about naming conventions in Tyrosh. We also have no idea whatsoever whether she was in favor of this whole quest for the throne. If she cared she certainly could have accompanied Daemon the Younger to Whitewalls, could she not? 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: The same shadow could have come twice, couldn't it? Whether they were two separate pregnancies, or only one (in the case of twins), only one shadow at a time would have been necessary. Well, if we read this literally as a murder via shadowbinding then the shadow actually would have dissolved after the deed was done just as Stannis' two shadow assassins disappeared after they had murdered Renly and Cortnay Penrose. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: I read this as stillbirths (with "strangled in the womb" meaning "born dead"), which would imply a pregnancy at least near term. But that's simply my personal interpretation. That is a possible interpretation. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: Possible, but I wasn't disputing that. I was only saying that the fact that Alysanne was pregnant on the portrait absolutely says nothing about her later pregnancies, but only indicates that she was pregnant again at the time the portrait was being made. The portrait as such isn't canon. It is just an artistic depiction of Jaehaerys I, his sister-wife, and eldest surviving son. But it gets the message across that Alysanne was a very fertile woman. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: Sure. But all we can say for certain is that there were at least two girls, and that there might have been more. That is why view as well. I just pointed that whole thing us to go down the road @Lost Melnibonean wants to go by suggesting that Daemon Blackfyre only had nine children in total - seven sons and two daughters. All we can say in my opinion is that he had seven sons and at least two daughters. He could have had more daughters. 18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: Personally, as long as no further twins are confirmed, I am going to assume there were no further twins. I don't know. We don't know anything about the last two sons. They could have been twins, too, or not. We just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 19, 2016 Author Share Posted December 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That is why view as well. I just pointed that whole thing us to go down the road @Lost Melnibonean wants to go by suggesting that Daemon Blackfyre only had nine children in total - seven sons and two daughters. All we can say in my opinion is that he had seven sons and at least two daughters. He could have had more daughters. I agree completely. However, with what we do know, and with the way those fictional facts have been presented, isn't the most likely, not the only, but the most likely, conclsuion that Daemon had seven sons and two daughters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I agree completely. However, with what we do know, and with the way those fictional facts have been presented, isn't the most likely, not the only, but the most likely, conclsuion that Daemon had seven sons and two daughters? I've no idea how you would actually be able to determine the probability for those possibilities. All we can say is that Rohanne couldn't have had more pregnancies than were physically possible between the time of her marriage and the death of her husband. That's all we can reasonably say. George most likely had a reason to give Daemon seven son and an unspecified number of daughters. This is a very high number of children for a noble family in Westeros, especially one of Targaryen descent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted December 19, 2016 Author Share Posted December 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: 1) I've no idea how you would actually be able to determine the probability for those possibilities. All we can say is that Rohanne couldn't have had more pregnancies than were physically possible between the time of her marriage and the death of her husband. That's all we can reasonably say. 2) George most likely had a reason to give Daemon seven son and an unspecified number of daughters. This is a very high number of children for a noble family in Westeros, especially one of Targaryen descent. 1) I expect if you said this in small council with Cersei, as your avatar suggests you dream of doing, she would respond with something like, "Best keep quiet then," as she holds her glass out for you to fill it with more Arbor gold. 2) Exactly. Why assume more than we need to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: 1) I expect if you said this in small council with Cersei, as your avatar suggests you dream of doing, she would respond with something like, "Best keep quiet then," as she holds her glass out for you to fill it with more Arbor gold. Well, if you are playing Cersei's role now that certainly also explains why she is so fucked off right now. You have to keep all the possibilities in mind not just the one you think is 'the most likely' (for apparently no good reason since you don't list one). 7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: 2) Exactly. Why assume more than we need to? Because those possibilities are equally valid as long as you cannot raise the probability on there being only two daughters. Just check how Rhaenys does the calculations for the ages of the characters. If we don't have enough information we can narrow it down but we cannot decide when a character was born when we don't know how old he actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Random thought. If Daemon had 7 sons and 2 daughters, the number of his children would be special to two religions: 7 is special to the Seven, and 9 is special to the Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 11 hours ago, Isobel Harper said: Random thought. If Daemon had 7 sons and 2 daughters, the number of his children would be special to two religions: 7 is special to the Seven, and 9 is special to the Old Gods. It is? The only thing I can think of at the moment are the nine weirwood trees that are located near the Wall in the Haunted Forest, but I can't recall reading that the number was special to the Old Gods... Only that it was a highly unusual number of weirwood trees to find this close together. Am I forgetting something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 19, 2017 Author Share Posted January 19, 2017 Quote Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though. Cersei VIII, Feast 36 On its face, this quote applies to Aurane. But if you had to substitute Aurane with another character, who would it be? Aegon, right? So, indulge me if you would, and substitute Aegon for Aurane here. That Aegon does not resemble Rhaegar as much as one might think calls to mind Jon’ Connington’s musing that Aegon’s eyes are lighter than Rhaegar’s. And the whores in Lys calls to mind Illyrio telling Tyrion that he found Serra in a pillow house in Lys, where, we learn in TWOIAF, that slaves are bred to produce Valyrian dragonlord features, and even Targaryen kings and princes sought wives and paramours from such beauties. Where Rhaegar is a man, Aegon is merely a sly boy, but useful—useful to whom? The mummer? From the same chapter... Quote A steady stream of informers had been making their way to the Red Keep, claiming knowledge of Tyrion, but four in one day was unusual. "Aye," said Osmund. "One brought a head for you." "I will see him first. Bring him to my solar." This time, let there be no mistakes. Let me be avenged at long last, so Joff can rest in peace. The septons said that the number seven was sacred to the gods. If so, perhaps this seventh head would bring her the balm her soul desired. The man proved to be Tyroshi; short and stout and sweaty, with an unctuous smile that reminded her of Varys and a forked beard dyed green and pink. Cersei misliked him on sight, but was willing to overlook his flaws if he actually had Tyrion's head inside the chest he carried. What Cersei says about seven being a sacred number and hoping that the seventh head is the one she has been waiting for recalls what we just read five chapters earlier on the Quiet Isle... Quote "Rhaegar's rubies?" "It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh." Brienne VI, Feast 31 The idea many readers have about Rhaegar’s rubies, is that we will see Rhaegar’s son. Presumably, that is Aegon, but many of us suspect that Aegon, who has been posing as a Tyroshi, is nothing more than the mummer’s dragon, and whom does Cersei think of when she sees this Tyroshi bringing her the seventh head? Varys. And whom does the forked beard remind you of? Illyrio maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 Quote "Ser Quentyn Ball was the master-at-arms at the Red Keep. He taught my father and my uncles how to fight. The Great Bastards too." The Mystery Knight If there are only three male great bastards, and if Bittersteel was raised at Stone Hedge, and if Fireball taught more than on great bastard how to fight, Bloodraven must have been raised, at least in part, at the Red Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: The Mystery Knight If there are only three male great bastards, and if Bittersteel was raised at Stone Hedge, and if Fireball taught more than on great bastard how to fight, Bloodraven must have been raised, at least in part, at the Red Keep. We only expect Aegor and Brynden to have been at Stone Hedge and Raventree Hall for most of the time during the reign of Aegon IV. Daeron II then called them all to court and raised them alongside his own sons. Despite the fact that Daemon was knighted in 182 AC, he might have still trained with Fireball at that time, and Aegor and Brynden were both young enough to actually have gotten the bulk of their training during the reign of Daeron II. Aegor must have come to court during the reign of Daeron II in any scenario or else he would never grown close to Daemon Blackfyre. The man certainly did not move to Stone Hedge to permanently live there. And since Brynden was born only in 175 AC he wouldn't have received a lot of training at arms in 175-184 AC. He was only 8-9 years old when his father died. He would have begun his training with Bloodraven in 185-86 AC, or so. Boys in the age of Tommen at best play at fighting. The days of a squire seem to begin at the age of 9-10, or so, the age of Egg during THK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: We only expect Aegor and Brynden to have been at Stone Hedge and Raventree Hall for most of the time during the reign of Aegon IV. Daeron II then called them all to court and raised them alongside his own sons. Despite the fact that Daemon was knighted in 182 AC, he might have still trained with Fireball at that time, and Aegor and Brynden were both young enough to actually have gotten the bulk of their training during the reign of Daeron II. Aegor must have come to court during the reign of Daeron II in any scenario or else he would never grown close to Daemon Blackfyre. The man certainly did not move to Stone Hedge to permanently live there. And since Brynden was born only in 175 AC he wouldn't have received a lot of training at arms in 175-184 AC. He was only 8-9 years old when his father died. He would have begun his training with Bloodraven in 185-86 AC, or so. Boys in the age of Tommen at best play at fighting. The days of a squire seem to begin at the age of 9-10, or so, the age of Egg during THK. So then what was meant by Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: So then what was meant by Aegor was raised at Stone Hedge? I guess that he spent the entire reign of Aegon IV there, perhaps even some more time only to came to KL when he was either technically already a man grown, or close enough for it to make no matter. He could still have gotten some training from Fireball at the age of 12-16 or so. But keep in mind that 'being raised' at a certain place doesn't mean he was only raised there or did move some years before he reached adulthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 On 12/20/2016 at 4:12 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: It is? The only thing I can think of at the moment are the nine weirwood trees that are located near the Wall in the Haunted Forest, but I can't recall reading that the number was special to the Old Gods... Only that it was a highly unusual number of weirwood trees to find this close together. Am I forgetting something? Sorry, somehow overlooked this. The nine swords on the crown of Winter Kings and Robb's crown. The nine weirwoods in the weirwood grove just beyond the Wall near Castle Black. And potentially the nine bats on House Whent's sigil. The number nine isn't explicitly an important number to the Old Gods, as it is with The Seven, but it's there. See also this thread and the comments from another thread here and here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 At the heart of Illyrio’s plan... Quote Brown Ben Plumm, the captain of the Second Sons, had put it more succinctly. "Man wants to be the king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair o' floppy ears." Daenerys I, Dance 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Rolly Duckfield's backstory shows that the men that have joined the Golden Company with no old family ties to The Blackfyre might still have axes to grind just like those that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Rolly joined the Golden Company at 16. He smiths for a few years. (3-4, so he's about 20?) And then Harry Strickland, one of the highest officers, takes him on as squire. "When Griff sent word downriver that he needed someone to help train his son to arms, Harry sent him me." Myles Toyne has only been dead four years. (The Lost Lord, Dance 24) and we can assume that Aegon began training to arms before he was 12, which strongly suggests that Harry knew about Griff and Young Griff before he became Captain General. This offers at least some support for the proposition that the highest officers of the Golden Company have known about Aegon for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Wow! I can't believe I never caught this before... Quote Behind them black clouds piled atop another against a blood-red sky. Tyrion VIII, Dance 33 Those are Blackfyre colors Tyrion sees back in the direction of where he left Aegon as he sails toward Daenerys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Quote "Cool breezes, sparkling water, and the laughter of children. The Water Gardens are my favorite place in this world, ser. One of my ancestors had them built to please his Targaryen bride and free her from the dust and heat of Sunspear. Daenerys was her name. She was sister to King Daeron the Good, and it was her marriage that made Dorne part of the Seven Kingdoms. The whole realm knew that the girl loved Daeron's bastard brother Daemon Blackfyre, and was loved by him in turn, but the king was wise enough to see that the good of thousands must come before the desires of two, even if those two were dear to him." The Watcher, Dance 38 Did Daemon Blackfyre and his half-sister Daenerys Targaryen love, or at least desire, each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 On 3/23/2017 at 1:14 PM, Lost Melnibonean said: The Watcher, Dance 38 Did Daemon Blackfyre and his half-sister Daenerys Targaryen love, or at least desire, each other? Really hard to say, maybe in their youth. Then Daemon got married off and Daenerys as well. I think it was bards overhyping the "secret love" aspect. I mean have you seen Daemon's abs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said: Really hard to say, maybe in their youth. Then Daemon got married off and Daenerys as well. I think it was bards overhyping the "secret love" aspect. I mean have you seen Daemon's abs? If anyone would downplay the idea that the two loved, or at least desired each other, it would be her descendants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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