The Fall of Aleppo

[Arakan]

Too much propaganda ongoing wrt Aleppo. Terrible crimes happen but those who believe the stupidity and narrative of someone like Samantha Power is childlike naive and this is me very polite. 

Why do apparently intelligent people need a black and white narrative? Why? 

What happens in Aleppo is the last act of a tragedy. One cannot ignore war crimes committed by Assad but one cannot ignore the undisputable FACT that the only relevant fighting force in Eastern Aleppo for the last year or so was AL NUSRA! Murderous child head-chopping jihadists, who hold many people in Eastern Aleppo as hostages. 

I AM SICK of this black and white narrative!

[Rippounet]

Thanks for the link above. Very informative. It certainly shines a different light on this sorry mess.

2 hours ago, Mr Fixit said:

Oh, and one more thing. What's the last anyone heard of Mosul and Yemen? What Mosul and Yemen, right?

I was wondering lately about Yemen... While being aware that denouncing the human rights violations of a regime supported by the Russians is much more comfortable than underlining the ones of regimes supported by the US.

[Arakan]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Thanks for the link above. Very informative. It certainly shines a different light on this sorry mess.

Well, got deleted. I don't know why. 

I try again: 

 

US Special Forces Veteran  

 

[Rippounet]

6 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Well, got deleted. I don't know why. 

I meant this one: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/15/west-ignored-russian-offer-in-2012-to-have-syrias-assad-step-aside

[Arkhangel]

5 hours ago, Ser Reptitious said:

How about doing both? And while we're at it, how about replacing "rant" with "bringing attention to the issue" or "starting discussions"? Yes, outside of donating to humanitarian organizations us average peons are pretty limited with what we can do, but since most of us (afaik) on this board live in democracies, creating awareness about the unfolding tragedy in Aleppo might (maybe? hopefully?) put at least a bit of heat on some of our politicians (i.e. the people who have more power than we do). 

And yes, this tragic catastrophe known as the Syrian civil war has been going on for far too long, but the current (seemingly intentional and organized) massacre of innocent civilians takes the savagery to a whole new level.

I work in the humanitarian sector, and for me and for many aid-workers, the frustration stems from the fact that all of this attention on Aleppo right now is exactly the same cycle of outrage and short-lived compassion which we have been through over and over and over again to no avail. A few weeks ago it was Mosul. A few weeks from now it may well be South Sudan, which is dancing on the edge of genocide. 14 million people are at the brink of starvation in Yemen. Rohingyas are being murdered in Myanmar and the government is piloting a new biometric ID program which makes me really nervous, and yet we're not seeing hashtags and Facebook shares en masse for South Sudan or Yemen or Myanmar, and we won't until it goes hideously, telegenically wrong.

People work for years to 'bring attention to the issue', people work for years to 'start discussions', but the only time they actually get any real traction with the media or with the public is when it's too damn late to save many, many, many people. It's frustrating to see people behaving like this is somehow a surprise, like it's a new development and all that needs to be done is sharing an article or two on social media for people to feel like they've done their virtuous duty to 'create awareness' when, let's be real, awareness is only useful to the extent that it leads to timely action. Your government doesn't follow you on Twitter, your Facebook shares won't keep IDP kids warm through the winter. I'm not saying that people shouldn't care about it, talk about it, think about it. I just hope that people recognise that creating awareness is a means to an end, not an end in itself - and that we're not going to do this all over again a few weeks from now, except in Juba or Bentiu or Arakan.

[Mr Fixit]

7 hours ago, Arkhangel said:

People work for years to 'bring attention to the issue', people work for years to 'start discussions', but the only time they actually get any real traction with the media or with the public is when it's too damn late to save many, many, many people.

I wish you the very best in your line of work. We need more people like you who actively work to make the world a better place for all its people. My respect.

Just wanted to add one thing. There is a reason why Aleppo, Syria, and Assad have been dominating the news and public discussion while equally horrific situations around the world seem to be forgotten: agenda by main international factors and their bought establishment media. Yemen, Sudan, and Burma are inconsequential at worst or being destroyed by "our allies" at best. Best not to divert the spotlight from Evil Overlord Putin, people might start asking questions.

The same thing we see day in and day out with regards to US politics and the hacked emails. Instead of understanding why the establishment politicians lost the election, the narrative that the public seems to lap up is that Putin stole them for Trump. Talk about misdirection. Propaganda 101 and I'm frankly surprised how in this day and age people still fall for it en masse.

[DireWolfSpirit]

John Kerry and a few others in the Obama regime should be indicted by a War Crimes tribunal for pursueing the illegal overthrow of the Syrian government. Their conduct and proxy support of the butcherous, terrorist rebels prolonged the suffering and unnecessarily delayed the liberation of the innocent Syrians in Aleppo. If the U.S. hadnt been so hellbent on overthrowing Assad he couldve long ago defeated the terrorist who have invaded the country.

Secular and Christian Syrians arent blindly or unaminously in support of Assad, but they would pick him over the murderous Jihadists in any election. They know he will fight ISIS and Al Queida, not try to partner and support them as they see the West doing by proxy.

This Syrian woman states it perfectly  to Senator John "Warpig" McCain 

 

[Arakan]

Samantha Power, the biggest bullshit artist I have ever seen. Everyone who knows the basics of the Syrian Civil Proxy war and the history of the battle in Aleppo can only feel angry. In the same session she put Aleppo on the level of Rwanda.  

 

This video makes me aggressive. It's not only the content but also the way it is delivered, the fake emotions, the fake drama. Maybe it's the general style of US politicians but I simply hate it. It's all so fake...reminds of this

 

[snake]

A very good article about how little could have been done to actually "save" Syria.

Story.

 

 

 

[Commodore]

Obama's only real foreign policy principle is that American interventionism is original sin, worse than any genocide that may be occurring in Aleppo.

This is much different than Samantha Power's responsibility to protect doctrine that made her famous. She talks about others' shame, but her life's work has been repudiated (with her participation!) by Obama's doctrine of nonaction. 

The one thing every state actor in the world knows for certain is that whatever they do, there will be no response from the US. Despite our enormous means to project power, we will not. 

Zero response to Russian hacking (and the delayed response to even acknowledge it) is another example of Obama inaction doctrine.

[Arakan]

44 minutes ago, Commodore said:

Obama's only real foreign policy principle is that American interventionism is original sin, worse than any genocide that may be occurring in Aleppo.

This is much different than Samantha Power's responsibility to protect doctrine that made her famous. She talks about others' shame, but her life's work has been repudiated (with her participation!) by Obama's doctrine of nonaction. 

The one thing every state actor in the world knows for certain is that whatever they do, there will be no response from the US. Despite our enormous means to project power, we will not. 

Zero response to Russian hacking (and the delayed response to even acknowledge it) is another example of Obama inaction doctrine.

The biggest sin is throwing around the term "genocide" like nothing, just for cheap political point scoring. As if accusing someone of genocide is not a bigger deal than farting in the bathroom...

Politicians who are doing this in an official position, like that women Power, should be legally held accountable for this. it's a disgusting, contra-productive, antagonising and lowest-level possible political strategy... 

The AUDACITY to even put the end of the battle of Aleppo in the same category as to what happened in Rwanda makes my blood boil...

[Mr Fixit]

2 hours ago, snake said:

A very good article about how little could have been done to actually "save" Syria.

Story.

Unlike the Americans, Russian generals don't have lawyers in the room to referee decisions about where and when to drop bombs. They don't really give a damn about killing civilians, as long as they win. In the Middle East, the Russians actually fit right in.

This is so rich. These guys in the mainstream media, even when they have their hearts in the right place -- and this article is generally not bad -- can't help but be blinded by warm and tingly sunlight that is Freedom-dispensing US military. I mean yeah, they don't carpet bomb and napalm anymore like in Vietnam, sure. It's so comforting to know there are lawyers present when deciding on the fate of millions in Iraq, Syria, and Libya. I guess it's them we have to thank for Saddam's WMDs. It's nice to know they are there to be consulted when US supported El Sisi's coup in Egypt and a de facto restoration of Mubarak's military dictatorship which left over a thousand dead in downtown Cairo in a single day. Or when deciding to arm, give unlimited air support and finally a whole country of Kosovo to a guy -- current President even -- that is literally a suspect in a case concerning organ theft from live people.

Thank God for American lawyers standing side by side with American generals. Gotta keep them on the straight and narrow!

[Suttree]

18 hours ago, Arakan said:

 the only relevant fighting force in Eastern Aleppo for the last year or so was AL NUSRA!

It's certainly not an "undisputable" fact. Their numbers in eastern Aleppo have been greatly debated with people on the ground saying they have little to no significance. Groups like Jabha Shamiya and Nour Al Din reportedly have a much larger presence. Think we need to point out the irony when you decry "black and white narratives" and "propaganda" and then literally regurgitate a soundbite straight from Assad's PR team.

[Mr Fixit]

1 hour ago, Suttree said:

It's certainly not an "undisputable" fact. Their numbers in eastern Aleppo have been greatly debated with people on the ground saying they have little to no significance. Groups like Jabha Shamiya and Nour Al Din reportedly have a much larger presence. Think we need to point out the irony when you decry "black and white narratives" and "propaganda" and then literally regurgitate a soundbite straight from Assad's PR team.

Let's see...

According to the Amnesty International, Harakat Nour al-Din al-Zenki, along with the 16th Division, the Levant Front, Ahrar al-Sham, and the al-Nusra Front, were involved in abduction and torture of journalists and humanitarian workers in rebel-held Aleppo during 2014 and 2015.
On 19 July 2016, during the northern Aleppo offensive, a video emerged that appeared to show al-Zenki fighters recording themselves beheading a Palestinian boy named Abdullah Tayseer Al Issa.

Yes, they are moderate rebels! They listen to Jimmy Hendrix and want freedom and democracy if only Assad would let them! They have nothing to do with evil islamist terrorists. Assad propaganda! Run for the hills!

[Suttree]

20 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said:

Let's see...

Not sure why you're shifting the goal posts. Arakan flat out claimed the only group fighting Assad in eastern Aleppo was Al Nusra. That's demonstratively false.

More so I don't see anyone saying these rebel groups are totally innocent. That doesn't take away in the slightest from the war crimes taking place. It just doesn't come across that well when someone plays the "evil jihadi" card to explain those crimes away. Especially when they are decrying "propaganda".

[Mr Fixit]

The point is that the so-called moderate rebels in eastern Aleppo are by and large hard-core islamists that engaged in all kinds of exceedingly well-documented atrocities. If I have to choose between war crimes-committing secularist Assad and war-crimes committing islamists, I know which ones I'd pick. Simple as that. All this hysteria about Assad doesn't phase me all that much considering who's against him.

[Arakan]

1 hour ago, Mr Fixit said:

The point is that the so-called moderate rebels in eastern Aleppo are by and large hard-core islamists that engaged in all kinds of exceedingly well-documented atrocities. If I have to choose between war crimes-committing secularist Assad and war-crimes committing islamists, I know which ones I'd pick. Simple as that. All this hysteria about Assad doesn't phase me all that much considering who's against him.

The interesting thing is that the "official" Western narrative doesn't work anymore, at least since the day IS stormed Mossul. Until then, we were mostly sold the "bad regime vs. heroic freedom fighters"story, at least here in Germany. Of course even back in 2013/14 the so called moderate FSA was mostly a joke from a military efficiency pov and the most effective anti-government groups already were Al Nusra and ISIS (plus the scores of affiliated groups). But we were still told the same old story. And then Mossul happened, apparently "out of nowhere" and people started to question the official government narrative. It simply didn't work anymore. And then came the stories of ethnic minorities, e.g. the Kurds, the Arameans or the Assyrians. All those three groups are very strongly represented in Germany and I just had to speak to them and things got absolutely clear. But as we can see, the governments still try to push their narrative but most people simply don't buy it anymore . 

Too many agendas of too many groups...

I mean isn't it quite funny that the YPG almost disappeared from the official narrative since NATO country Turkey started to fight them? Thank god we live in a time where those who are interested enough and are affluent in several languages have access to many information sources and can make their own analysis. 

A bullshit artist like Samantha Power might have been successful 20/30 years earlier but nowadays it doesn't take long to expose their bullshit. 

[Suttree]

4 hours ago, Mr Fixit said:

The point is that the so-called moderate rebels in eastern Aleppo are by and large hard-core islamists that engaged in all kinds of exceedingly well-documented atrocities. If I have to choose between war crimes-committing secularist Assad and war-crimes committing islamists, I know which ones I'd pick. Simple as that. All this hysteria about Assad doesn't phase me all that much considering who's against him.

Is there a difference in your mind between who was initially fighting and who is left in eastern Aleppo now? I guess I just don't understand how someone can be ok with war crimes, a siege in violation of international law, and a massive humanitarian crisis because there are bad guys interspersed with the rebels. Think on what you just said. You're ok with war crimes committed by Syria and Russia against civilians because of some of the people they're fighting? Think on the implications of that if we follow it out to it's logical conclusion. "Hysteria against Assad" seems like a massively callous statement given what has taken place. This isn't happening on a battlefield somewhere.

[snake]

8 hours ago, Mr Fixit said:

Unlike the Americans, Russian generals don't have lawyers in the room to referee decisions about where and when to drop bombs. They don't really give a damn about killing civilians, as long as they win. In the Middle East, the Russians actually fit right in.

This is so rich. These guys in the mainstream media, even when they have their hearts in the right place -- and this article is generally not bad -- can't help but be blinded by warm and tingly sunlight that is Freedom-dispensing US military. I mean yeah, they don't carpet bomb and napalm anymore like in Vietnam, sure. It's so comforting to know there are lawyers present when deciding on the fate of millions in Iraq, Syria, and Libya. I guess it's them we have to thank for Saddam's WMDs. It's nice to know they are there to be consulted when US supported El Sisi's coup in Egypt and a de facto restoration of Mubarak's military dictatorship which left over a thousand dead in downtown Cairo in a single day. Or when deciding to arm, give unlimited air support and finally a whole country of Kosovo to a guy -- current President even -- that is literally a suspect in a case concerning organ theft from live people.

Thank God for American lawyers standing side by side with American generals. Gotta keep them on the straight and narrow!

That reporter is by no means a cheerleader for the US military but he is not wrong.  The US is not as indiscriminate in its killing as the Russians and they do prosecute people who step over the line.  They are no shrinking violets but the Russian military is much more brutal.

[Mr Fixit]

9 hours ago, Suttree said:

Is there a difference in your mind between who was initially fighting and who is left in eastern Aleppo now? I guess I just don't understand how someone can be ok with war crimes, a siege in violation of international law, and a massive humanitarian crisis because there are bad guys interspersed with the rebels. Think on what you just said. You're ok with war crimes committed by Syria and Russia against civilians because of some of the people they're fighting? Think on the implications of that if we follow it out to it's logical conclusion. "Hysteria against Assad" seems like a massively callous statement given what has taken place. This isn't happening on a battlefield somewhere.

I am not supporting war crimes. I am just saying that both sides appear to be committing terrible war crimes and I see no reason to feign moral indignation over only one side's crimes because Sammy wants me to. I've been thoroughly immunized to one-sided sad stories. Look at the Kurds, for example. When they were being threatened in Syria and Iraq, the media portrayed them as heroic beacons of light we should support at all costs. Their brave women fighters were being paraded before cameras day and night, their plight front and center in the mainstream media. All well and good. Don't get me wrong, Kurds appear to be decent people. But then, just over the Turkish border those same Kurds have been persecuted and terrorised for decades, thousands dead, millions displaced, and the pathetic media won't peep a word about it. Like it never happened. You won't see sad interviews with heroic Kurds in Turkey. You won't see hashtags and facebook posts and other bullshit there. Cause it's not convenient. If Erdogan coses up to Putin, don't be surprised if Turkish Kurds suddenly get a lot of sad-faced attention from concerned humanitarians. 

So no, I don't support war crimes in any shape or form. But I certainly won't allow to be dragged into short-lived self-congratulating pat-on-the-back currently politically-relevant quasi morality which only serves to promote someone's agenda while letting the people feel good about themselves for taking a stand.