The Night's Kings pale Sorceress. Who was she. What was her agenda.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Seams 

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Was that a thirteen year gap? Like the thirteen years the Night's King ruled with his bride?)

9 year gap sadly! Had to double check that though.  

I really like the stuff you say about the Pyke Wall and Thoros and Ned etc. though.

[Ygrain]

I've thought about these parallels as well, and arrived at a similar conclusion - that the pale woman is Mel's ice equivalent. Which brings an interesting question: if Mel could use Stannis' seed for magic, could the pale woman, as well? And what exactly could Mel do with it, except shadowbabies? And, in this light, is it a coincidence that the Others are often described as white shadows?

Sure, Mel's shadows had less substance, but at that time, her powers were definitely not in their prime, whereas the pale woman, closer to her source of power...?

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I've thought about these parallels as well, and arrived at a similar conclusion - that the pale woman is Mel's ice equivalent. Which brings an interesting question: if Mel could use Stannis' seed for magic, could the pale woman, as well? And what exactly could Mel do with it, except shadowbabies? And, in this light, is it a coincidence that the Others are often described as white shadows?

Sure, Mel's shadows had less substance, but at that time, her powers were definitely not in their prime, whereas the pale woman, closer to her source of power...?

Ah yes. The Shadow/White shadows angle. I left it out of the OP although I have certainly thought on it plenty. It's probably not a coincidence. 

Whats interesting about the thing you mention about Mels not having much substance and her not being in her prime, I have thought on this. 

We know Storms End is infused with magic. Maybe similar magic to the Wall. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with how she managed to bring forth her shadow, possibly not. 

But she almost threatens in regards to the shadows she will bring forth due to the Walls power. 

Thought provoking indeed if we think of the pale woman seeking out the Lord Commander to take her place at his side at the Wall. She may have taken advantage of it to perform magical feats of her own?

I think her ultimate purpose was to disable its wards for her "gods" to pass but could she have fed off the power with her own magic for a time? Interesting. 

And I am waiting with quite some interest to see exactly how Mel draws the power of the Wall to do whatever it is she seems destined to do there. I had thought it would be something to do with Jon but her threat below is certainly thought provoking:

"She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers."

[aryagonnakill#2]

This is something I can't make up my mind about.  I'd need a better answer than "bitches be trippin" to understand why would a human want the WW's to kill all humans?  Conversely, how could a wight give birth to living children?

Just doesn't add up either way I look at it.

[Fencer]

An interesting thread, and I think I largely agree with your argument.  But I wanted to fan the flames a little, no pun intended.

My very first exposure to ASoIaF was through a company that makes miniatures, Dark Sword, which has not only the rights to GRRMs characters (before the HBO show started) but also a lot of support and feedback from the man himself.

What has long piqued my interest, and I have never seen discussed here on the forums, is the Melisandre miniature, which was one of the first made.  Almost immediately after it was made, GRRM directed one of the painters to make a very... icy... version.  Fantastic artwork, and worth a look, but I can't help but think that GRRM asked specifically for this because he had something in mind.

[Nyrhex]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If I'm not mistaken Val has eyes described as grey mostly and blue once (not sure what's up with that really) and her skin has never been described as pale I don't think??

Her eyes were described once as pale grey (ASOS, as Jon treats with Mance), once as grey (when she stands near Stannis during Mance's execution), and once with blue eyes (after returning from the mission to find Tormund). She is described as fair before, but that can mean pretty more than having fair skin. Though considering the standards of beauty in the setting, she is most likely fair skinned.

She is also specifically described as dressed all in white, and is compared to Ghost, which gives the same vibe (and who knows if ~8,000 years of retelling the story have not slightly worked over the details to an extreme).

One can question if it is a mistake or a retcon, or if it meant to signify that Val has changed during her mission... but none can deny that the similarities are uncanny.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

Her eyes were described once as pale grey (ASOS, as Jon treats with Mance), once as grey (when she stands near Stannis during Mance's execution), and once with blue eyes (after returning from the mission to find Tormund). She is described as fair before, but that can mean pretty more than having fair skin. Though considering the standards of beauty in the setting, she is most likely fair skinned.

She is also specifically described as dressed all in white, and is compared to Ghost, which gives the same vibe (and who knows if ~8,000 years of retelling the story have not slightly worked over the details to an extreme).

One can question if it is a mistake or a retcon, or if it meant to signify that Val has changed during her mission... but none can deny that the similarities are uncanny.

Or maybe something akin to Dany's temporary immunity to fire.  Perhaps Val is given temporary immunity to ice so that she can survive the cold and has camouflage from the wights and white walkers.

[Greywater-Watch]

Questions/Comments/Provocations:

• Is it mentioned anywhere what became of the Night King's Queen (=White Sorceress)?

• Comparisons of the White Sorceress with normal human beings like Val are inappropriate
  • following McGregor's theory consequently, the White and the Red Sorceress are not normal human beings
  • the skin of the White Sorceress is cold, the skin of the Red warm;
  • both in an extent not comparable to normal humans

• The blood of the men, both Sorceresses seek to control, is not important, but the power he is given through his position
  • Mel knew well that Stannis was a Baratheon but no Stark. However she chose him when arriving in Westeros and until the end of ADWD she still sticks with him
  • her interest for Jon Snow has increased because he appears in her dreams, never she mentions that his blood would be of significance.
  • the White Sorceress at that time might well have chosen the Lord Commander of the Watch, whatever house he was from
  • Old Nan's Story confirms in a way that the Night King's house has been forgotten; probably as it was not a significant aspect in his relation to the White Sorceress

• Following McGregor's thought of similarities between the White and Red Sorceress leads to this
  • Ice and Fire are contrast; but like the two sides of the same coin: there are parallels as well (e.g. sorcery)
  • with so many similarities:
    • woman,
    • pale skin (one very cold, the  other very warm)
    • same behaviour pattern (taking control of a man, power through his seed)
    • sorcery power very strong at the Wall
    • => why should both not come from the same place (Asshai), family (Sisters) or even be identical (Mel = the White Sorceress returned with new intentions)?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

I wonder if it might have something to do with this...

Spoiler

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Euron produced a carved stone bottle and a wine cup. “You have a thirsty look about you,” he said as he poured. “You need a drink; a taste of evening’s shade.”

“No.” Aeron turned his face away. “No, I said.”

“And I said yes.” Euron pulled his head back by the hair and forced the vile liquor into his mouth again. Though Aeron clamped his mouth shut, twisting his head from side to side he fought as best he could, but in the end he had to choke or swallow.

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…
Aeron dreamed of drowning, too. Not of the bliss that would surely follow down in the Drowned God’s watery halls, but of the terror that even the faithful feel as the water fills their mouth and nose and lungs, and they cannot draw a breath. Three times the Damphair woke, and three times it proved no true waking, but only another chapter in a dream.

The Forsaken, Winds

 

[Ygrain]

30 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder if it might have something to do with this...

  Hide contents

The Forsaken, Winds

 

Spoiler

A certain similarity with Others has been noted...

 

[Lord Varys]

On 16.12.2016 at 0:37 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

I simply stated the similarity between Mel and the blue woman though. They are both described as being a sorceress and having pale skin.

Well, actually, we don't know whether the Night's queen was some kind of sorceress. Could very well be but if she was an Other or a wight then she would have been a magical creature without being a sorceress. Giving your soul to somebody during intercourse sounds a lot like misogynistic talk rather than an actual spell we ever witnessed in this series. I mean, Stannis is still himself, right, despite the fact that he enjoys having sex with Mel.

And also keep in mind that her skin is compared to that of a corpse - which is never done with either Melisandre or Cersei who both also have very pale skin.

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Yes but Mel is warm to the touch so this woman could easily just be an icy version who is cold to the touch. When you say wight do you mean the term loosely as in like Mel is some sort of wight? I presume you do not mean this blue woman was a wight like Coldhands or the wights we have seen who have black hands? Can you clarify.

Mel having hot skin doesn't mean that there can be an icy version of such a woman. Why should there be such a woman? Just because it would be cool if there was an icy version of Melisandre? That's not enough to make a good case.

I mean, if there was any mentioning of ice sorceresses in this story I'd say you have a point but there are none of that sort while there are plenty of red priests and shadowbinders. 

I meant wight in the sense of wights created by the Others. The hands of the Night's King's wife are never described so they could very well have been black. Or not, because the Others were using a glamor to disguise the woman they sent to the Night's King. It is not that we get a very clear picture of this woman in the story. And if a glamor was involved it could easily enough also have been a male Other feigning to be a gorgeous 'corpse queen'.

You also have to keep in mind that Coldhands sort of proves that you can become a wight and retain your personality. The idea, I think, behind Coldhands will turn out to be that he is a skinchanger who became a wight and was then later on able to reclaim his undead body, breaking the magical connection between his (former) body and the Others without actually destroying the spell that animated his body.

If you want to see the Night's Queen woman as a real person something similar could also work for her. Let's say she is a skinchanger woman who allied herself with the Others during the Long Night. She was killed at one point and her body became a wight. Eventually she reclaimed it and now her undead body is still controlled by a cunning spirit like Coldhands' body is.

Or the body isn't even the original body of that creature but rather a body such a hypothetical skinchanger took over after (s)he lost her original body. Varamyr believes that you lose your abilities as a skinchanger when you begin your second life but that's by no means certain. If it was then Jon Snow's spirit would be forever trapped in Ghost.

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Yet we are here discussing these characters lol. I happen to find the Nights King and this blue woman very very interesting.

Sure, they are interesting. But I find it unlikely that they are very important in the grand scale of things. There are those superfluous parallels between Stannis/Mel and aspects of this story which connect with a lot of people. But it might actually be nothing more than a variation of that theme rather than a really important part of Westerosi history. Again, the Long Night itself and the Others are really important, not necessarily of people worshiping them later on. We are also not likely to learn how exactly Craster first hooked up with the Others.

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Could happen,yes. Would be an interesting turn of events actually. Would kind of take this connection between Mel and the blue woman full circle sort of thing. I will be watching how Melisandre uses her powers at the Wall very closely. Im quite sure she is confident of doing very powerful things there, its a matter of time.

I've suggested in the past that Mel might produce another round of shadow assassins to deal with the people she wants to take out in the wake of Jon's assassination. Assuming she will need those. She also has those poisonous powders that were explicitly mentioned in ADwD. One assumes that Marsh is not likely to survive a personal meeting with Mel if she doesn't want him to.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, actually, we don't know whether the Night's queen was some kind of sorceress. Could very well be but if she was an Other or a wight then she would have been a magical creature without being a sorceress. Giving your soul to somebody during intercourse sounds a lot like misogynistic talk rather than an actual spell we ever witnessed in this series. I mean, Stannis is still himself, right, despite the fact that he enjoys having sex with Mel.

And also keep in mind that her skin is compared to that of a corpse - which is never done with either Melisandre or Cersei who both also have very pale skin.

Mel having hot skin doesn't mean that there can be an icy version of such a woman. Why should there be such a woman? Just because it would be cool if there was an icy version of Melisandre? That's not enough to make a good case.

I mean, if there was any mentioning of ice sorceresses in this story I'd say you have a point but there are none of that sort while there are plenty of red priests and shadowbinders. 

I meant wight in the sense of wights created by the Others. The hands of the Night's King's wife are never described so they could very well have been black. Or not, because the Others were using a glamor to disguise the woman they sent to the Night's King. It is not that we get a very clear picture of this woman in the story. And if a glamor was involved it could easily enough also have been a male Other feigning to be a gorgeous 'corpse queen'.

You also have to keep in mind that Coldhands sort of proves that you can become a wight and retain your personality. The idea, I think, behind Coldhands will turn out to be that he is a skinchanger who became a wight and was then later on able to reclaim his undead body, breaking the magical connection between his (former) body and the Others without actually destroying the spell that animated his body.

If you want to see the Night's Queen woman as a real person something similar could also work for her. Let's say she is a skinchanger woman who allied herself with the Others during the Long Night. She was killed at one point and her body became a wight. Eventually she reclaimed it and now her undead body is still controlled by a cunning spirit like Coldhands' body is.

Or the body isn't even the original body of that creature but rather a body such a hypothetical skinchanger took over after (s)he lost her original body. Varamyr believes that you lose your abilities as a skinchanger when you begin your second life but that's by no means certain. If it was then Jon Snow's spirit would be forever trapped in Ghost.

Sure, they are interesting. But I find it unlikely that they are very important in the grand scale of things. There are those superfluous parallels between Stannis/Mel and aspects of this story which connect with a lot of people. But it might actually be nothing more than a variation of that theme rather than a really important part of Westerosi history. Again, the Long Night itself and the Others are really important, not necessarily of people worshiping them later on. We are also not likely to learn how exactly Craster first hooked up with the Others.

I've suggested in the past that Mel might produce another round of shadow assassins to deal with the people she wants to take out in the wake of Jon's assassination. Assuming she will need those. She also has those poisonous powders that were explicitly mentioned in ADwD. One assumes that Marsh is not likely to survive a personal meeting with Mel if she doesn't want him to.

Actually, Stannis isn't alright after banging Mel and making the shadow babies. Mel says his life force is too low to do it again and that's why she propositions Davos. I do agree with you that Mel is the inverse of the Corpse Queen in most ways, but they do both seem to drain their suitor's life essence/soul.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/17/2016 at 11:04 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder if it might have something to do with this...

  Hide contents

Quote

Euron produced a carved stone bottle and a wine cup. “You have a thirsty look about you,” he said as he poured. “You need a drink; a taste of evening’s shade.”

“No.” Aeron turned his face away. “No, I said.”

“And I said yes.” Euron pulled his head back by the hair and forced the vile liquor into his mouth again. Though Aeron clamped his mouth shut, twisting his head from side to side he fought as best he could, but in the end he had to choke or swallow.

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…

Aeron dreamed of drowning, too. Not of the bliss that would surely follow down in the Drowned God’s watery halls, but of the terror that even the faithful feel as the water fills their mouth and nose and lungs, and they cannot draw a breath. Three times the Damphair woke, and three times it proved no true waking, but only another chapter in a dream.

The Forsaken, Winds

 

And this...

Quote

“Come with me,” said Sam. “Maester Aemon’s woken up and wants to hear about these dragons. He’s talking about bleeding stars and white shadows and dreams and … if we could find out more about these dragons, it might help give him ease. Help me.”

Samwell, Feast

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

Sometimes I wonder if questions like this, and many other historical mysteries, will ever be answered.....I also wonder sometimes, when individuals' theories get really detailed, or "out there" if even GRRM takes it to such levels...am I the only one who thinks that sometimes?

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Actually, Stannis isn't alright after banging Mel and making the shadow babies. Mel says his life force is too low to do it again and that's why she propositions Davos. I do agree with you that Mel is the inverse of the Corpse Queen in most ways, but they do both seem to drain their suitor's life essence/soul.

That is true but there is no reason to believe the Night's King was producing shadow assassins with his corpse queen. The way things are phrased in the Night's King story suggests the man became the mindless slave of his woman after he had first slept with her.

Mel producing two shadow assassins with Stannis' semen certainly weakened the man. She took part of his life force to accomplish that, that's pretty obvious. Yet Stannis did in no way become Mel's slave thereafter nor is he always losing life force when he is sleeping with Melisandre - after all, we know that they routinely slept with each other in Mel's bed at Castle Black without ever producing another shadow assassin.

One actually wonders whom Mel is going to drain to make new shadow assassins at the Wall? Daven Seaworth? Axell Florent? Some wildlings? Jon soulless body after he has been accidentally resurrected by the kiss of fire?

That's a pretty interesting question...

[rotting sea cow]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One actually wonders whom Mel is going to drain to make new shadow assassins at the Wall? Daven Seaworth? Axell Florent? Some wildlings? Jon soulless body after he has been accidentally resurrected by the kiss of fire?

Actually, Mel already proposed to Jon

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The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows

- Jon, aDwD

and she thinks that she will make even more powerful "shadow babies" at the Wall

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Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

- Melisandre (aDwD)

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, AnarchoPrimitiv said:

Sometimes I wonder if questions like this, and many other historical mysteries, will ever be answered.....I also wonder sometimes, when individuals' theories get really detailed, or "out there" if even GRRM takes it to such levels...am I the only one who thinks that sometimes?

No. You are not. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is true but there is no reason to believe the Night's King was producing shadow assassins with his corpse queen. The way things are phrased in the Night's King story suggests the man became the mindless slave of his woman after he had first slept with her.

Mel producing two shadow assassins with Stannis' semen certainly weakened the man. She took part of his life force to accomplish that, that's pretty obvious. Yet Stannis did in no way become Mel's slave thereafter nor is he always losing life force when he is sleeping with Melisandre - after all, we know that they routinely slept with each other in Mel's bed at Castle Black without ever producing another shadow assassin.

One actually wonders whom Mel is going to drain to make new shadow assassins at the Wall? Daven Seaworth? Axell Florent? Some wildlings? Jon soulless body after he has been accidentally resurrected by the kiss of fire?

That's a pretty interesting question...

IMO, she and Mance Rayder were lovers.  He compares the ruby on his wrist to "a woman's kiss, your kiss."  I don't know whether this was just in the nature of a reward, for agreeing to work on her behalf, or if she was also taking a part of his life force.

I think she and Jon will become lovers in due course.  She was pretty straightforward in her propositions to him.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Actually, Mel already proposed to Jon

- Jon, aDwD

and she thinks that she will make even more powerful "shadow babies" at the Wall

- Melisandre (aDwD)

Well, considering that his mindless body isn't going to be able to resist her advances we could very well see Mel riding Jon Snow in a Drogo-like state in her second or third TWoW chapter. Depending on the political situation at the Wall after the assassination the removal of quite a few people from the board might be necessary.

And indeed - the fact that she pointed out that she can make very strong shadows at the Wall makes it very likely that she is going to do that at one point. Depending whether 'powerful' also means 'more lasting' we could even speculate whether such shadows might be sent out into the lands beyond the Wall to search for and spy on the Others. Jon might be as physically connected to those shadows as Stannis was in ACoK. He might be able to see and feel what they see and do, gathering information in such a manner.

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

IMO, she and Mance Rayder were lovers.  He compares the ruby on his wrist to "a woman's kiss, your kiss."  I don't know whether this was just in the nature of a reward, for agreeing to work on her behalf, or if she was also taking a part of his life force.

I think she and Jon will become lovers in due course.  She was pretty straightforward in her propositions to him.

Mel's own chapter doesn't suggests she and Mance were lovers. And she isn't really fond of him no caring all that much about his views. Even if they had sex once they clearly didn't create a shadow assassin together. This kind of thing seems to be happening very fast, after all.

If Mel is going to be the one who brings Jon back to life via the kiss of fire it is pretty clear that he will become enthralled by her in one way or another. You are very thankful to the person who brings you back from the dead, and Mel is certainly going to use that to her advantage.

However, while Mel thinks Stannis is the savior - which she still does - Jon Snow is only going to be a tool in her hands. This would not likely to be a very healthy relationship for Jon.

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And indeed - the fact that she pointed out that she can make very strong shadows at the Wall makes it very likely that she is going to do that at one point. Depending whether 'powerful' also means 'more lasting' we could even speculate whether such shadows might be sent out into the lands beyond the Wall to search for and spy on the Others. Jon might be as physically connected to those shadows as Stannis was in ACoK. He might be able to see and feel what they see and do, gathering information in such a manner.

I like that. We are promised a vision of the 'lands of always winter'. How is this pull out logistically, I don't know. I always assumed it will be through Bran.

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If Mel is going to be the one who brings Jon back to life via the kiss of fire it is pretty clear that he will become enthralled by her in one way or another. You are very thankful to the person who brings you back from the dead, and Mel is certainly going to use that to her advantage.

However, while Mel thinks Stannis is the savior - which she still does - Jon Snow is only going to be a tool in her hands. This would not likely to be a very healthy relationship for Jon.

I'm not sure about getting enthralled. We don't see that with Thoros&Beric. But Jon will finally recognize her power and hopefully use that.

From the last interactions with Jon in aDwD, I get the feeling that Mel is already seeing that something is wrong with her previous assumptions.