The Night's Kings pale Sorceress. Who was she. What was her agenda.

[Macgregor of the North]

With Christmas just round the corner and all that jazz I'll allow myself one more thread before I get too busy to even stop by. One last piece for 2016. An Icy Winter themed thread seems fitting.

There's a tl;dr at the bottom of you wish to Ski on by.

I'll begin by saying I am firmly in the camp that subscribes to the idea that the Night's Kings pale skinned bride was not a female Other. 

That's never sat well with me at all. She has never been classed as or described as this, so I have lead myself to believe, and a fair few other people have too I think going by past discussions on the topic is that she is some kind of contrasting reflection of Melisandre. A sorceress, but while Mel is a devotee of R'hllor and is like an embodiment of fire and flame, this woman I think was her opposite. Completely devoted to the Others and all their Ice related magics.

Possibly this woman was from beyond the Wall. Some sort of Maegi turned very powerful with Ice magic.

I believe whatever was going on with this sorceress from the past, she may have had something happen to her that bonded her to this icy higher power she followed, maybe in the same way Mel was changed and now follows her own God R'hllor. 

I think, in my personal opinion that we are supposed to see these two in this way, as kind of like these contrasting mirror images of one another. One from each side of the spectrum, Ice and Fire. 

Both women have some similarities even when we stay mindful of their obvious distinctive differences such as the blue and red eyes.

The pale appearance, and they are both referred to as a Sorceress.

The Nights Kings pale bride:

"The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well."

"The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night's King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king."

Melisandre:

"Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow."

"Even her eyes were red . . . but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream."

"Melisandre huddled upon a thwart, lost in the folds of a dark red cloak that covered her from head to heels, her face a paleness beneath the cowl."

"Lady Melisandre was seated near the fire, her ruby glimmering against the pale skin of her throat."

"Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands."

"She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night."

"And Melisandre said, "Let them come forth, who would be joined." The flames cast her shadow on the Wall behind her, and her ruby gleamed against the paleness of her throat."

So having got my beliefs out the way on 'what' I think this pale Sorceress was, I have begun to try and figure out what she wanted. These figures, Melisandre and the Blue woman I'll call her in opposition to how Mel is often referred to as the Red woman, both had/have agendas I believe. 

GRRM has stated that Mel had an agenda and seeked out Stannis on her own:

"Why did Melisandre seek out Stannis? Did she see him in her flames and decided to seek him out on her own, or is she on a mission on behalf of the red priests? It doesn't seem at any point as if the latter is the case, when you compare to Moqorro who has been sent out by the priesthood."

"You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda."

So Mel has her own agenda. Whatever that is though she is obviously driven by her faith in R'hllor and uses every opportunity possible to convert people to worship that higher power. Everything about her actions and purpose revolves around this fiery power she worships. 

So if I am viewing these two Red and Blue women as similar, yet different in their allegiances, I am going to take my little train of thought right on down the road of speculating on the Blue woman's agenda.

I think the Blue woman specifically and purposely seeked out the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, who I believe was a younger son of that generation of the Starks of Winterfell, the Kings of Winter who played a pivotal role in defeating the Others during the Long Night and War for the Dawn.

If we go down this road, I can try and open my eyes to more similarities between the Red and Blue woman's situations. These will run along with my theory and who I believe the man who became the Nights King to be. 

Both the Red woman and the Blue woman seeked out younger sons, brothers to whom their older sibling reigned as King i believe.

Stannis to King Robert. 

The Nights King to the King of Winter at the time, alleged to be Brandon "the breaker" Stark.

Old Nan:

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." 

AWOIAF BOOK:

"For thirteen years the Night's King and his "corpse queen" ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down."

Mel converted many of Stannis' people to following her God and switching their devotion to R'hllor.

The Blue woman's effect was similar to the Lord Commanders people, although more sinister and saw that the Night's Watch became bound to the Nights Kings will, which was the will of this Sorceress.

"He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will."

Now, in itself these similarities don't really show me the Blue woman's full agenda or her intentions. I just thought I'd share a couple more things in common between the two aside from the pale appearance and Sorceress tag. 

You could also look at how the two targets, Stannis and the Nights King were actively trying to impose their rule as the true King. Things like these are only my personal observations that show me there is something to analyse there in regards to the similarities and therefore i deduce that this woman was created by GRRM as some kind of Icy Sorceress counter to Mels fire Sorceress.

I can't compare agendas, or come to a conclusion on the Blue Woman's agenda in relation to Mels agenda yet as the story is still burning on and Mel still has a part to play so her endgame hasn't been shown on page yet but we can be fairly certain she seems true in her thoughts that she seeks Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised to fight  in the War for the Dawn during the upcoming Winter/Long Night. 

So, any agenda the Blue woman had I'm quite sure it would have been completely and utterly Pro Others and would be on that icy higher powers behalf and with their gain behind her intentions. 

We hear from Old Nan that the Nights King, before he was the NK, saw her from the Wall, chased her and loved her. 

Old Nan:

"A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her,"

I don't think this was in any way some sort of coincidence. The Blue woman I believe had singled out the Stark Lord Commander and seeked him out beyond doubt, hoping to spark his interest in her and be drawn in by her power so she could bend him to her will and rise to power at the Wall, the only magical warded boundary between the higher power she worships, and the lands south they wish to move to.

Old Nan again:

"Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well."

This sounds like more Red woman/Stannis similarities for sure. The Blue woman is cold as ice to touch while Mel was warm, and Stannis also seems like he gave her his soul along with his seed. 

In any event, the Lord Commander took his new pale Sorceress to the Night Fort at the Wall, and proclaimed her a Queen and himself a King alongside her. Her obvious intent from the beginning I believe. 

Old Nan:

"He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen,".

I do not really believe the whole thirteen years thing for some reason. The Kings of Winter were hard men, and if Brandon the breaker at Winterfell had heard his brother had proclaimed himself King on the Wall with a strange pale Sorceress at his side as Queen, I believe he would have acted sooner on the matter. 

However though, they obviously did rule as King and Queen for some amount of time and as well as holding the Nights Watch to their will by sorcery, it was also found out after the Stark in Winterfell brought them down that they were making sacrifices to the Others. 

Old Nan:

"After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden."

This right here I think helps guide me in the direction of her agenda. 

I think it is possible that this pale sorceress with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars, had a mind to bend this younger Stark Lord Commander to her will and power, to raise him up as a King upon the Wall and provide sons as a sacrifice for the Others to replenish their strength after their devastating defeat during the War for the Dawn in recent times.

Sons of Stark blood. Blood of the Kings of Winter, to create fresh new Others and build up their numbers for another attempt at a move south of the Wall. 

(At this point I'll also mention that i imagine  the Sorceress was possibly encouraging sacrifices of sons from any union between man and woman in the vicinity also. Black brothers with Wildlings, whores at Moles town if it was there in those days.)

I also think that while the Blue woman had a view to building up the Others numbers with the sons of the Stark Nights King(and other unions possibly), she also would have been mindful that while they reigned as King and Queen of the Nightfort, the Nights Watch would not be staying true to its cause, so the magic that held the Others back, which was woven into the Wall upon its creation, would maybe not work. So when the Others numbers were built up enough through sacrifices, they were open to pass the Wall with no magical ward to hold them back. 

I admit. I put quite a bit of stock into this next quote with that assumption right there. What I'm trying to get at though is I think that the Nights Watch staying true to its cause maybe has something to do with the powerful ward that is woven through the Wall. As long as the Lord Commander and his men holds true, the Wards will hold sort of thing. It's a stretch I know but I think there's something there in Old Nans message.

Possibly the Sorceress thought that by corrupting the Wall, she could break the Wards keeping it safe sort of thing, leaving the Others free to pass when their strength was back up. 

Old Nan:

"The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say."

Ok, reflection on the thread. I have tried to back up what other posters in the past have stated (I give them their props whoever they are, I'm not the first to speculate this), that the pale Sorceress was some form of opposing figure to what Melisandre is. Some kind of powerful Icy version of her. 

I have tried to figure out her agenda. 

Which I have stated to be that she wished to take control of the Wall through the Lord Commander, using sorcery. In this fashion the Nights Watch no longer stayed true to their cause and possibly the magical wards could be broken after this somehow. And also, she wished to take the Lord Commanders seed and Stark blood and produce sons who could be sacrificed to the Others to replenish their strength for another attempt at moving south and taking over. 

Why is the Stark blood important for the sons? 

Well why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? I think there must be some kind of power in Stark blood, something the Others maybe coveted? Or maybe they fear the Starks as the people who beat them back during the War for the dawn and view them as some kind of force to be feared or at least respected. 

Maybe they felt that if they had Stark blood used in the creation of more Others, this would help somehow when they faced the Starks when they attempted to move south again. 

There are a few reasons the Blue woman could have seeked out the Stark Lord Commander of the Wall, and that is certainly what I think she did. She had an agenda and an endgame plan in sight when she sought him out. These are some ideas I came up with as to her purpose. 

Anybody thought along these lines before?

Care to weigh in?. One last dance before the Christmas period.

TL;DR. 

The Lord Commander on the Wall, not too long after the War for Dawn was won, was a Stark of Winterfell, younger brother to the King of Winter, the Stark in Winterfell. 

He was seeked out by a powerful Sorceress with pale skin and blue eyes. A woman with heavy similarities to Melisandre while being her total opppsite. A sorceress who worshipped the Icy higher power that is aligned with the Others.

She wished to corrupt the Lord Commander and the Wall, to be made Queen upon the Wall alongside this King, the Night's King. Her agenda was to replenish the Others depleted numbers with sons as a sacrifice much in the way we saw Craster do.

She also wished to corrupt the Nights Watch until they no longer stayed true to their purpose, with a view to breaking the magic wards woven through the Wall, so the Others could move south again when their strength was up.

I imagine the Sorceress was possibly burned by the Stark in Winterfell when he rode on the Wall to bring his brother down.  Her exact fate is never specified.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

I'm with you that it is unlikely that this woman was a female Other - because there are, most likely, no female Others. Yet this actually makes it not unlikely that this woman simply didn't exist as described by the story. Perhaps the Night's King just decided to set himself as a king and took a (cruel) mortal queen who later on was defamed as some sort of monstrous woman by later singers? Just as Serala of Myr was.

Keep in mind that the Watchmen are not so supposed to marry. Thus any woman entering into a relationship with a black brother would be seen as evil. Even a girl like Danny Flint trying to become a black sister was raped up there. Those men have a very unhealthy view of their own sexuality. And in this kind of society women most likely would be blamed if they seduced a black brother, septon, Kingsguard, etc. to break his vows.

If you want to take the story literally one can go with the possibility that she was some sort of intelligent female wight, a seductress used by the Others to corrupt the Night's King. After all, the way she is described more points into that direction than in her being an Other - the Night's King supposedly worshiped the Others provided them with sacrifices - an odd thing to do if he was married to an Other.

In addition, there is the fact that the Others supposedly were defeated at the end of the Long Night, making it sort of odd that a female Other would still be around during the days of the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

People tend to make a lot about this Night's King story. But it might turn out to be just a story. The important things involving the Others happened before and during the Long Night, not thereafter. And we do know that there are still men worshiping the and sacrificing to the Others (Craster) who are cruel. This is not all that uncommon. However, a Lord Commander of the NW going down that dark path certainly could have destroyed the NW and possibly even the magic within the Wall. Thus he most definitely would have been a rather dangerous foe.

There is a long-standing tradition of pointing out parallels between 'the Night's Queen' and Melisandre. Yet I think we can conclude those are superfluous parallels since we actually know that Mel is just a genuine religious nut with magical powers. She has no dark plan to corrupt people. She just wants to save the world and ensure that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just had another thought I can possibly include as a similarity between the two Blue and red Sorceresses. 

The Wall. 

The Blue woman sought to bend the Nights Watch to her Will and control the Wall. Possibly with a view to breaking the Walls magic to let the Others by.

Melisandres agenda has seen her appear at the Wall, where she has commented on its power. She, in opposition to the Blue woman, possibly hopes to harness that power for a positive use, in counter to the power the Blue woman follows.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you want to take the story literally one can go with the possibility that she was some sort of intelligent female wight

Except that is not going with the story literally though. She is pale skinned, the Wights have black hands etc.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

a seductress used by the Others to corrupt the Night's King.

Yes, a Sorceress as she is described.

 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, the way she is described more points into that direction than in her being an Other

Points in the direction of her being a Wight? I never got that though. What makes you think that from her description?. And i dont agree at all with her being an Other.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

the Night's King supposedly worshiped the Others provided them with sacrifices - an odd thing to do if he was married to an Other.

Exactly. My OP states i think she was not an Other.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, there is the fact that the Others supposedly were defeated at the end of the Long Night, making it sort of odd that a female Other would still be around during the days of the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

My OP states i do not believe in any way she is a female Other.

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

People tend to make a lot about this Night's King story. But it might turn out to be just a story

A story with some truth i believe. The Nights king and his pale sorceress Queen were indeed real i believe.

[Macgregor of the North]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yet I think we can conclude those are superfluous parallels since we actually know that Mel is just a genuine religious nut with magical powers. She has no dark plan to corrupt people. She just wants to save the world and ensure that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.

I havent stated that because the Blue woman as i'll call her had this dark plan that means that Mel has one. Quite the opposite, since she seems to be the opposite version of this sorceress albeit with similarities.

[Macgregor of the North]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However, a Lord Commander of the NW going down that dark path certainly could have destroyed the NW and possibly even the magic within the Wall. Thus he most definitely would have been a rather dangerous foe.

This is exactly what i think the Blue womans plan was, and exactly what she was heading for, and exactly why the Nights kings brother rode to the Wall to put him down. For the good of the realm.

[lojzelote]

In TWoIaF maesters speculate that the Night's King's bride might have been a daughter of the Barrow King:

Quote

In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales - though some allow that there might have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch.

Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves.

They are creepy folks.

Quote

The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet's Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.

If the maesters are right at least about her descent, then I expect that her motivations moght have been quite mundane (gaining power for herself and her husband), although via magical means. I don't think she would have wished for the end of humankind. Maybe she had some kind of uber greenseer powers and enslaved men the way the Others enslave the dead or skinchangers enslave animals. Or perhaps she simply charmed and frightened them the way Melisandre does Stannis' men.

In regards to the present day it may be interesting that the heirs of of the Barrow Kings are Dustins of Barrowton. The only Dustin we know is Barbrey Dustin, who is only a Dustin by marriage, although since cousin marriages are popular, it may be her mother or grandmother was a Dustin by blood.

This is the way Theon describes her:

Quote

 Inside the hall, a woman stood beside the hearth, warming thin hands above the embers of a dying fire. She was clad all in black, from head to heel, and wore no gold nor gems, but she was highborn, that was plain to see. Though there were wrinkles at the corners of her mouth and more around her eyes, she still stood tall, unbent, and handsome. Her hair was brown and grey in equal parts and she wore it tied behind her head in a widow’s knot.

She sounds kinda old for a woman that must be only a couple of years older than Catelyn, who was still pretty hot, by all accounts. But maybe she just doesn't age as well as Catelyn.

It gets even more interesting if one takes into account Lady Dustin's words: "If I were a queen..." I've seen some speculation she plans to off Fat Walda and become a Queen in the North by Roose's side, but that seems rather unlikely given present situation. But, given her sudden rise to prominence in ADwD, I do think that Martin has something interesting in store for her.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

They are creepy folks

I have thought on this connection but couldnt quite settle on it myself, as interesting as it is.

 

9 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

I don't think she would have wished for the end of humankind.

Yeah that does sound rather dark, but if she was sacrificing to the Others her agenda had to involve much pain and suffering for humankind at the least i imagine.

 

12 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

But, given her sudden rise to prominence in ADwD, I do think that Martin has something interesting in store for her.

I am watching her with interest in the coming storylines, she is an interesting character for sure.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Except that is not going with the story literally though. She is pale skinned, the Wights have black hands etc.

Yes, a Sorceress as she is described.

Keep in mind, though, that many beautiful women in the series (Cersei, for instance) are described as having very pale skin. That's not a trait of sorceresses.

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Points in the direction of her being a Wight? I never got that though. What makes you think that from her description?. And i dont agree at all with her being an Other.

It is said her 'skin was cold as ice'. That suggests she might have been dead which means she could have been a wight. In addition, we also know that wights 'eyes like blue stars' just as she had.

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

A story with some truth i believe. The Nights king and his pale sorceress Queen were indeed real i believe.

Could very well be. I just don't think they are important to our story all that much. The Others and their motives and the reason why they exist are. Not so much the deeds of some guy who worshiped them after they had been defeated. Craster isn't that important, either, despite the fact that he worships the Others.

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I havent stated that because the Blue woman as i'll call her had this dark plan that means that Mel has one. Quite the opposite, since she seems to be the opposite version of this sorceress albeit with similarities.

I go with you there up to a point in the sense that I find it not unlikely that Stannis and Mel are inadvertently going to bring down the Wall. They might take the wrong approach trying to defeat them and thus playing into their hands in the process. Thus they could finish the work the Night's King and his queen began in the ancient days, although they would be following noble motives.

@lojzelote

Thanks for pointing out the Barrow connection. We cannot easily dismiss that. If she wasn't an Other or a wight she could very have been a woman from that ambitious and creepy family. And I think we can go with the idea that the Starks essentially just usurped the place the Barrow Kings once had in the North. One wonders whether that had anything to do with the Long Night. Were the Barrow Kings (and the Red Kings) perhaps in league with the Others at one point during the fighting? Could very well be.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep in mind, though, that many beautiful women in the series (Cersei, for instance) are described as having very pale skin. That's not a trait of sorceresses.

I simply stated the similarity between Mel and the blue woman though. They are both described as being a sorceress and having pale skin.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is said her 'skin was cold as ice'. That suggests she might have been dead which means she could have been a wight. In addition, we also know that wights 'eyes like blue stars' just as she had.

Yes but Mel is warm to the touch so this woman could easily just be an icy version who is cold to the touch. When you say wight do you mean the term loosely as in like Mel is some sort of wight? I presume you do not mean this blue woman was a wight like Coldhands or the wights we have seen who have black hands? Can you clarify.

 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Could very well be. I just don't think they are important to our story all that much. The Others and their motives and the reason why they exist are. Not so much the deeds of some guy who worshiped them after they had been defeated. Craster isn't that important, either, despite the fact that he worships the Others

Yet we are here discussing these characters lol. I happen to find the Nights King and this blue woman very very interesting.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I go with you there up to a point in the sense that I find it not unlikely that Stannis and Mel are inadvertently going to bring down the Wall. They might take the wrong approach trying to defeat them and thus playing into their hands in the process. Thus they could finish the work the Night's King and his queen began in the ancient days, although they would be following noble motives.

Could happen,yes. Would be an interesting turn of events actually. Would kind of take this connection between Mel and the blue woman full circle sort of thing. I will be watching how Melisandre uses her powers at the Wall very closely. Im quite sure she is confident of doing very powerful things there, its a matter of time.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I don’t know if this has been raised before, but what strikes me as interesting are the parallels between the Nights King and Jon.

1. Jon attempts to use his power as Lord Commander to intervene in the wars in the North (we can debate whether that was the right thing to do, but that’s what he did).

2. Jon’s killed, but most of us believe he’s going to be brought back to life by magical means.

3. Jon’s in league with a magical woman.

We don’t know what direction the story’s going, but if we were well in the future, looking back at recent events in the wall in an historical context, wrapping it in myth, the story of the Nights King could easily be the story of Jon: A Stark Lord Commander, brother to a King, sets himself up as “king” with a magical woman at his side.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I think you are right, we never saw a female other or even children, so it seems that woman was either a maegi or some special type of wight, she could also be wight, but I think a maegi would suit better to the story. I said maybe a wight, because of the icy blue eyes, but as you pointed out, Melisandre also has weird colored eyes, red eyes, that is quite uncommon, although we don't know about other priests and priestesses of R'hllor, I don't recall if Moqorro or Benerro have red eyes.

 

Anyway, I think your theory is quite interesting and plausible, and we all know maegis are not well regarded in general, we know that the Night's King's true name was erased from history because he was probably making sacrifices to the Old Gods. That makes me wonder if he was giving babies to the Others?

[Macgregor of the North]

The thing with the Wight interpretation i am against is that she has been referred to as a woman more than once, and a sorceress. I know Wights have pale skin but they also have an ill favoured look and Black hands. Our blue womans descriptions seem different.

"A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars."

"the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse".

These descriptions in the text sway me away from the idea of the blue woman being a Wight, unless it is some kind of special fancy type of Wight. But to me she seems like a woman like Mel (although its obvious Mel is a different sort of woman for sure), except her icy mirror image.

8 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

we know that the Night's King's true name was erased from history

Yup, i believe he wasnt a Brandon, although his brother who took him down was.

9 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

we know that the Night's King's true name was erased from history because he was probably making sacrifices to the Old Gods. That makes me wonder if he was giving babies to the Others?

 No, it is clearly stated the sacrifices were made to the Others. I think we are certainly supposed to take this to mean it is in a similar fashion we see with Craster. So the blue womans agenda was in relation to strengthening the Others again i believe.

[Macgregor of the North]

45 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

the story of the Nights King could easily be the story of Jon: A Stark Lord Commander, brother to a King,

Yep, im with this. The similarities are spot on.

 

46 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

sets himself up as “king” with a magical woman at his side.

Now this, is what we will all have to wait and see.

The Jon/Nights King connection is alive and well though and has been touched on a bit.

[Macgregor of the North]

32 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

so it seems that woman was either a maegi or some special type of wight, she could also be wight, but I think a maegi would suit better to the story

I mentioned maegi in the OP more like possibly trying to envision her as a woman beyond the Wall with some kind of knowledge of spells, or some kind of power perhaps? Other terms beyond the wall for such women are Woods Witch and the like.

Its just a personal idea really with no text to back it up apart from she is referred to as a Sorceress, just me personally envisioning the woman as more than just a regular woman you know what i mean?. Although her Sorceress status could just come from the transformation from normal woman to the pale skinned strange blue eyed woman she became and the magical power that came with that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well while it may be meaningless, or maybe not, one cannot help but notice the similarities to Val. Pale skin, blue eyes, mysterious and beautiful.

[Seams]

I am so glad you have turned your energy to this good topic.

The Melisandre / Night's Queen comparison is a good one, and I think it can be taken further. Your "Red Woman / Blue Woman" parallel helps to narrow down what's missing: the Trident River has three forks. So who would be the Green Woman? I think it's Catelyn Stark, and I think she represents Stone. Stone is (usually) impervious to both fire and ice and can be used to separate them. Like the hot water that flows through the stone walls of Winterfell, cold is on one side of the walls and warmth on the other.

The Wall

Which brings us back to the importance of the Wall. I know you will correct me if you think I'm wrong, but one of the ideas in this thread seems to take the ball and run with a notion from the Craster is a Stark thread, that there needs to be some kind of balance of Stark blood beyond and below the Wall. Like the hot spring water that flows through the walls of Winterfell, what if the Stark blood is the magic that holds the Wall together?

I suspect the Night's Queen didn't want Stark-blooded baby sacrifices to the Others per se, but she wanted to bring down the Wall so that winter (night, death) could "win" and invade the southern parts of Westeros. Melisandre, on the other (!?) hand, wants to bring down the Wall so that fire (dawn? life?) can "win" and invade beyond the Wall. The Starks and the Wall are necessary to maintain the balance between the two worlds, to ensure the proper cycle of seasons, to guarantee that the sun will rise in the east, etc. So maybe the goal of the two sorceresses is to have too much Stark blood one one side or the other; or to end or corrupt the Stark bloodline altogether.

Are there other walls that can provide clues to help clarify this larger, ancient story of balance and imbalance? GRRM is so helpful in this regard. Consider the oft-mentioned wall of Pyke that comes tumbling down when Ned and Robert suppress the Greyjoy rebellion. Theon's brother died at that Wall. Old Nan's son died at that Wall. Thoros of Myr was the first man over that Wall. (I always wondered why GRRM provided this detail about Thoros, and I now think this balance/imbalance symbolism, and the R'hllor connection to Melisandre is the reason.) That Wall is the last place that Ned (Winter King) and Robert (Summer King) saw each other until Robert traveled to Winterfell and asked Ned to be his Hand. (Was that a thirteen year gap? Like the thirteen years the Night's King ruled with his bride?)

The parallels between the broken Wall at Pyke and the Wall of Ice that protects Westeros may also be represented in the crown of the Kings of Winter. I believe that Greyjoy's keep at Pyke is precariously balanced on nine stone towers; the crown features nine stone spikes. Pykes and spikes.

Interestingly, we have also been given a little appetizer about another Wall that has fallen: Dragonstone. Who was the first person over that Wall? Ser Loras Tyrell. Which raises an very interesting parallel:

... When he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

As you point out, Stannis seemed to give his soul to Melisandre when they created the shadow baby that killed Renly. I would suggest that the "Green Woman," Catelyn, similarly obtained a man's soul - not from making love with Ned, but from the kiss of Ser Baric Dondarrion, overseen by Thoros of Myr, when Catelyn is revived from her unfortunate encounter with death. Baric is the perfect representative of balance: He remains loyal to King Robert (Summer King) but he was sent out on his mission by Ned, who was Hand of the King (Winter King). He confers knighthood on Gendry (son of summer) but he restores "life" to Catelyn (wife and/or mother of winter), all overseen by Thoros, who was supposed to convert Robert to the red god but never quite succeeded.

The reason I segued from Ser Loras to the notion of giving seed is that we are fairly certain that Renly "gave his seed" to Ser Loras. GRRM thought of a way for a single character to embody both the sorcerer and the warrior who crosses the Wall: Ser Loras was both the lover or Renly and a knight in his guard. And the line about giving his seed tells us that Renly lives on through Ser Loras, even though they couldn't make a literal baby together.

For what it's worth, I notice a possible pattern of third sons in association with this set of parallel story arcs: Ned was a third (oops! second) son. Renly was a third son. Ser Loras is a third son. Theon is a third son. Which raises the interesting question: is Bran a third son, or is it Rickon?

(I just realized that, of course, Ned was a second son. Now I see why Benjen and finding Benjen is so important! Mormont specifically mentions that he needs Jon Snow's blood and his wolf to go beyond the Wall to help find Benjen. This is getting good!)

King's Blood

The baby swap at Castle Black comes into focus now. Jon arranged the exchange of Gilly's baby for Dalla's baby because he was worried that Melisandre would want to burn Dalla's baby for its inheritance of the bloodline of Mance Rayder, King Beyond the Wall. But we have been told over and over again that Jon Snow knows nothing. The baby that was left vulnerable to Melisandre is Craster's baby. I believe that Craster is a Stark. This baby boy, as his only known male heir who has not been given to the Others, may represent the bloodline that Melisandre really has in her sights, the one she wants to control or burn. So Jon's attempt to save one baby may not have achieved the goal he had in mind.

In another thread, I tried to work out a couple of months ago a new idea about the difference between the King of Winter and King in the North: in spite of some lines in TWOIAF, the explanation of the change in title just didn't add up to me. My tentative conclusion is that the Stark family long ago experienced something like the split between the Targaryens and the Blackfyres. So maybe Craster descends from one branch, and the Winterfell Starks from the other. But wait a minute - where does that put the Karstarks? Perhaps there are three branches, just like the three branches of the Trident. Now I'm thinking that Robb beheading a Karstark, Robb losing his own head and the death of Craster have come close to wiping out the three Stark bloodlines and throwing the world into chaos. Except Alys Karstark lived, and Jon arranged for a ying/yang marriage for her to a man from Beyond the Wall. Craster's baby (born beyond the Wall) lived (just south of the Wall), and maybe we will see him grow up to be significant. People think that the three male Stark heirs are all dead, but Jon was legitimized (if Robb's will is ever revealed) and Bran and Rickon are hiding Beyond the Wall, not really dead. The seed is strong.

Other Sorceresses

@Lord Varys and @lojzelote are right to point out the Cersei has skin that is compared to milk and that Lady Dustin is an ominous presence connected to the barrows, the Barrow Kings and to vengeance. The name Cersei is even a variation on the Greek godess of magic who bewitched Odysseus. I think we must also consider Val as one of these sorceress figures and Margaery Tyrell, both as a descendant of Garth Greenhand and as the sister of Ser Loras and former wife King Renly.

There does seem to be a connection among these sorceresses to the big four heroes: Garth Greenhands, Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever and Durran Godsgrief. The Baratheons are supposed to represent the only remaining bloodline descended from Durran Godsgrief, the Storm King, but I suspect there is at least a symbolic link between Beric Dondarrion and King Durran.

Lord Varys also raised an interesting point in the pattern about the seduction of men who don't want to be seduced: like the Night's Watch, the King's Guard also take vows not to marry. Yet Arianne Martell seduces Ser Arys Oakheart during his sojourn in Dorne. So there's another potential sorceress.

This, together with the Lady Dustin connection, opened up a new line of thinking for me: there is a very narrow path into Dorne through the mountains. It used to be guarded by the Tower of Joy. Ned pulled down that tower and used it to build cairns for the northmen (and King's Guard?) who were slain when only he and Howland Reed returned north. Was Ned building the equivalent of a southern Wall when he built those cairns, with the north men entombed in them? Is that why Lady Dustin is mad about her husband's bones not being returned? Is her true agenda to get Starks to stop building magic "Walls" that prevent imbalance from wreaking havoc in Westeros? If Ned was putting in place the last piece in a warded "wall" around the south, what was he trying to seal within Dorne? Is there an Other-equivalent that resides in Dorne and wants to travel north?

I don't want to forget the Ironborn here. If I'm right about the symbolism of the breached wall at Pyke, that means that something that had been sealed in the Iron Islands may be unleashed on the world with the break in that wall. We have a pretty good idea that it could be embodied by Euron and/or Victarion (which one is the third son?) but what if it's Theon . . . Or maybe Asha is a sorceress?

[Macgregor of the North]

43 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well while it may be meaningless, or maybe not, one cannot help but notice the similarities to Val. Pale skin, blue eyes, mysterious and beautiful.

If I'm not mistaken Val has eyes described as grey mostly and blue once (not sure what's up with that really) and her skin has never been described as pale I don't think??

[Macgregor of the North]

@Seams

Good idea about Cat here.

Quote

The Melisandre / Night's Queen comparison is a good one, and I think it can be taken further. Your "Red Woman / Blue Woman" parallel helps to narrow down what's missing: the Trident River has threeforks. So who would be the Green Woman? I think it's Catelyn Stark, and I think she represents Stone. Stone is (usually) impervious to both fire and ice and can be used to separate them. Like the hot water that flows through the stone walls of Winterfell, cold is on one side of the walls and warmth on the other.

Why of course it's Cat, who was dumped in the Green fork and who foreshadowed her death in green imagery here.

"Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief?"

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Seams

Quote

Which brings us back to the importance of the Wall. I know you will correct me if you think I'm wrong, but one of the ideas in this thread seems to take the ball and run with a notion from the Craster is a Stark thread, that there needs to be some kind of balance of Stark blood beyond and below the Wall. Like the hot spring water that flows through the walls of Winterfell, what if the Stark blood is the magic that holds the Wall together?

I suspect the Night's Queen didn't want Stark-blooded baby sacrifices to the Others per se, but she wanted to bring down the Wall so that winter (night, death) could "win" and invade the southern parts of Westeros.

Nope, I never read the whole Craster is a Stark thread, I was only interested in the later part about the Others in the Prologue haha which I got a slap on the wrist for derailing .

The idea I'm proposing here is not related to that thread at all and not spawned by it.

I theorise that the Others could find some use for the Stark blood in their creation rituals possibly viewing it as powerful? Or something along that lines. It was also my way of connecting the Others to the Starks by blood which I think is possible.

As to the Blue woman wanting to take down the Wall, that was the second part of my theory on her agenda. But I don't mean take down the Wall in a physical sense, I think she was aiming to shut down its magical wards so the Icy powers she worships can win through and invade south again.