Jon's pointless end of story death

[mosaab]

Seriously? What's the point? Where is the catharsis? "he died sacrificing himself for the greater good" but, does anyone find this arc satisfying? We all know he is a good guy who would sacrifice himself for humanity at any time. Now you could say he reject that path once he comes back from the dead or learns about his parantage and his prophesied destiny. But doesn't that feel like fake & manufactured tension to you? 
Tyrion dying protecting a world that despised him. 
Dany dying abandoning all that she fought for.
Jon dying doing his duty protecting his family.
One of thee scenarios just does not sound bittersweet to me.

Now Jon surviving a horrific apocalyptic war to rule a broken kingdom that is war torn,disease ridden, famished & broke. That I find bittersweet. 

If TWOIAF tought us anything is how easy it is to end up a king under the right circumstances & timing and the right hiratage.
Not KITH or king of the wildling, King of westeros.

The fandom is so afraid of a cliché ending that they are willing to disregard a frightening amount of foreshadowing & build up for a boring 'death of the hero' kind of ending. 

Edit:By death I don't mean the stabbing at the end of ADWD. but his supposed death at the end of the series. 

[Jon Fossoway]

What?

[devilish]

Jon Snow's death releases him from his vows from the NW. His NW enrollment was necessary for him to keep him safe during the war of the 5 kings (else he would have ended up like Robb) + to teach him that the Northern people stereotypes are wrong.

- Wildlings aren't evil. They are just desperate people who were trapped at the wrong side of a wall
- Not every Northerner is honourable as Roose clearly show
- Not every Southerner is treacherous. There's more honour and respect to duty in Stannis then in most people in the North. 

These lessons will be crucial when the North ends up negotiating with the mad king's daughter

[Ygrain]

You really think this is the end of the story?

[mosaab]

I am not talking about the recent death. I am talking about his projected end of series death. 

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

Seriously? What's the point? Where is the catharsis? "he died sacrificing himself for the greater good" but, does anyone find this arc satisfying? We all know he is a good guy who would sacrifice himself for humanity at any time. Now you could say he reject that path once he comes back from the dead or learns about his parantage and his prophesied destiny. But doesn't that feel like fake & manufactured tension to you? 
Tyrion dying protecting a world that despised him. 
Dany dying abandoning all that she fought for.
Jon dying doing his duty protecting his family.
One of thee scenarios just does not sound bittersweet to me.

Now Jon surviving a horrific apocalyptic war to rule a broken kingdom that is war torn,disease ridden, famished & broke. That I find bittersweet. 

If TWOIAF tought us anything is how easy it is to end up a king under the right circumstances & timing and the right hiratage.
Not KITH or king of the wildling, King of westeros.

The fandom is so afraid of a cliché ending that they are willing to disregard a frightening amount of foreshadowing & build up for a boring 'death of the hero' kind of ending. 

Edit:By death I don't mean the stabbing at the end of ADWD. but his supposed death at the end of the series. 

Yes Jon dying would be very satisfying.

[Red Man Racey]

24 minutes ago, mosaab said:

I am not talking about the recent death. I am talking about his projected end of series death. 

To quote @King Merrett I Frey:  what?

Is this a thing that the fandom as a whole projects will happen?

[The Hidden Dragon]

I don't know if the fandom as a whole projects this or not, but GRRM did say that the ending will be bittersweet, which begs the question, in what way will the ending be bittersweet?  Jon does strike me as the type of character who would sacrifice himself if the situation really called for it, but I really don't expect that to be the outcome.

[velo-knight]

I get your meaning, Hidden Dragon. I'm inclined to agree - Tyrion and Daenaerys are both better candidates for the heroic death. Also, the hero-who-dies-but-saves-the-day is a very male trope (perhaps even leaving someone to remember him by), and I think Dany's death in battle against the Others might be a fun way for George to invert it, as he is so fond of. I do tend to think Mirri Maaz Duur's curse was a (possibly unintended) prophecy that Dany will not have children, and Dany dying as the new Last Hero but leaving her nephew as heir might explain how a (probably not legitimate) Jon could become the King he's foreshadowed to be.

Also, Dany's rule (or misrule, depending on who you talk to) in Meereen is often put forth as evidence that she's some sort of incompetent, evil queen in the making. I don't buy it, and I don't think it fits her symbolism - but it could be foreshadowing that her future lies in conquest, not rule. How to have the one without the other? One good way is to die in action.

[JLE]

Dragons do not build. They burn.

I believe Dany's fate is to destroy all she touches - and her quest is to find a way to *escape* that fate, not embrace it: to reject the dragon's path and leave it behind.

"Three mounts you will ride: one to bed, one to dread, one to love"

If we take this as referring to animals... #1 was clearly the silver filly, Drogo's bride-gift. At that time she did not yet love him - nor have any reason to even like him, having been part of an arranged marriage in which she was effectively sold to his bed - even though the marriage worked. #2 is Drogon, the black dragon, Balerion the Black Dread come again... There will be a third beast to ride, and I think it will not necessarily be a dragon. At some point she will either lose Drogon (by his being killed), or walk away from him and reject him (and who knows how Drogon will take that?).

I just HOPE it is not a case of crash-landing in the North, meeting Ghost and Ghost brings her to meet a resurrected Jon: and that the series does not end with a Dany / Jon marriage, considering that although of similar age, she is his aunt (assuming him to be Rhaegar's son, which I think can now be safely considered canon), because I don't want to see incest end up as the solution when for so long it was the problem.

[velo-knight]

8 minutes ago, JLE said:

Dragons do not build. They burn.

I believe Dany's fate is to destroy all she touches - and her quest is to find a way to *escape* that fate, not embrace it: to reject the dragon's path and leave it behind.

"Three mounts you will ride: one to bed, one to dread, one to love"

If we take this as referring to animals... #1 was clearly the silver filly, Drogo's bride-gift. At that time she did not yet love him - nor have any reason to even like him, having been part of an arranged marriage in which she was effectively sold to his bed - even though the marriage worked. #2 is Drogon, the black dragon, Balerion the Black Dread come again... There will be a third beast to ride, and I think it will not necessarily be a dragon. At some point she will either lose Drogon (by his being killed), or walk away from him and reject him (and who knows how Drogon will take that?).

Interesting. I sort of see Drogon and Dany dying together in battle but saving the day, but maybe that's me being naive.

8 minutes ago, JLE said:

I just HOPE it is not a case of crash-landing in the North, meeting Ghost and Ghost brings her to meet a resurrected Jon: and that the series does not end with a Dany / Jon marriage, considering that although of similar age, she is his aunt (assuming him to be Rhaegar's son, which I think can now be safely considered canon), because I don't want to see incest end up as the solution when for so long it was the problem.

I doubt incest will happen with Jon (and yes, that includes Arya and Sansa, although - and it's so weird that this is the case - they're actually less related to him by blood than Dany is). I think one of the consequences (and purposes) of the Ygritte arc and the steady increase in Jon's sense of esteem for and belonging to the Wildlings will be to push him in a much more exogamous direction. I tend in the Val direction, but could also see Arianne Martell, Margaery Tyrell (highly unlikely), Asha Greyoy (even more unlikely), or someone from a second-tier house like the Manderlies or Hightowers.

[a black swan]

11 hours ago, velo-knight said:

Interesting. I sort of see Drogon and Dany dying together in battle but saving the day, but maybe that's me being naive.

I doubt incest will happen with Jon (and yes, that includes Arya and Sansa, although - and it's so weird that this is the case - they're actually less related to him by blood than Dany is). I think one of the consequences (and purposes) of the Ygritte arc and the steady increase in Jon's sense of esteem for and belonging to the Wildlings will be to push him in a much more exogamous direction. I tend in the Val direction, but could also see Arianne Martell, Margaery Tyrell (highly unlikely), Asha Greyoy (even more unlikely), or someone from a second-tier house like the Manderlies or Hightowers.

But even with Ygritte, some of his possible Targ tendencies seem to linger. 

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

[Ygritte] punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

“Longspear’s not your brother.” (Jon, A Storm of Swords)

The right answer is "No. I would never." lol But Jon deflects to making the point that (although growing up "like siblings" didn't mean anything to Jon) making the point that Longspear wasn't her brother. What is George trying to say there?

George goes on to make the point of both Arya & Jon thinking they wouldn't know eachother. That distance and re-acquainting seems to be in order when they meet again. 

 

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

Heroic deaths seem pretty cliche to me, and there's never any deep messages behind them. It's just less cliche than a HEA where the hero gets to be the Greatest Wisest King the Realm Has Ever Seen™. Tbh, at this point, any ending will do.

[velo-knight]

8 hours ago, DutchArya said:

But even with Ygritte, his some of his possible Targ tendencies seem to linger. 

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

[Ygritte] punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

“Longspear’s not your brother.” (Jon, A Storm of Swords)

The right answer is "No. I would never." lol But Jon deflects to making the point that (although growing up "like siblings" didn't mean anything to Jon) making the point that Longspear wasn't her brother. What is George trying to say there?

George goes on to make the point of both Arya & Jon thinking they wouldn't know eachother. That distance and re-acquainting seems to be order when they meet again. 

 

It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

 

Nice catch! I don't really have a good counterargument to this, other than to say: wow, I can't wait for Winds to come out.

[Curled Finger]

Hmm, some truly thought provoking ending scenarios here.  I try to apply the "bittersweet ending" comment the way it was actually said when GRRM said how he appreciated the bittersweet ending of The Lord of the Rings.   I have not revisited Middle Earth in a very long time but I do remember Sauron being destroyed, magic leaving the world and taking the hero with it, a heroic king is crowned and then the trouble in the Shire.   Think about it.   There is a finality to the ring and magic being essentially nullified.  In this case those bad Others banished or vanquished but you lose all that cool ice magic and those darling dragons and all the fire magic.  There is an implied happily ever after or at least much better ever after in seating a fair and just ruler.   In our case a fair and just and possibly non magical ruler of a single country instead of a world, but Westeros has as many problems as many worlds combined.  And something will be ignored and buggered while all this world changing stuff happens.  Though we have this big world I'm betting the problem will end up right there in Westeros.   I will go one better and save frickin' Little Finger for that problem in the Vale that has managed to stay out of everything until it all goes to hell and The Vale becomes a casualty of internal forces.   

I don't mean to suggest a ripoff of TLOR for ASOIAF at all.  There will no doubt be some unfathomable twists and turns, but there does need to be some resolution to this story and chances are very good that it will not be a happily ever after so much as a manageable ever after for Westeros.  Seasons will normalize, segregation will be abolished,  I don't see any reason for Jon or Dany or Tyrion to die, but plenty of reason for frickin' Little Finger to die so I expect him to survive.  For all it's worth. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hmm, some truly thought provoking ending scenarios here.  I try to apply the "bittersweet ending" comment the way it was actually said when GRRM said how he appreciated the bittersweet ending of The Lord of the Rings.   I have not revisited Middle Earth in a very long time but I do remember Sauron being destroyed, magic leaving the world and taking the hero with it, a heroic king is crowned and then the trouble in the Shire.   Think about it.   There is a finality to the ring and magic being essentially nullified.  In this case those bad Others banished or vanquished but you lose all that cool ice magic and those darling dragons and all the fire magic.  There is an implied happily ever after or at least much better ever after in seating a fair and just ruler.   In our case a fair and just and possibly non magical ruler of a single country instead of a world, but Westeros has as many problems as many worlds combined.  And something will be ignored and buggered while all this world changing stuff happens.  Though we have this big world I'm betting the problem will end up right there in Westeros.   I will go one better and save frickin' Little Finger for that problem in the Vale that has managed to stay out of everything until it all goes to hell and The Vale becomes a casualty of internal forces.   

I don't mean to suggest a ripoff of TLOR for ASOIAF at all.  There will no doubt be some unfathomable twists and turns, but there does need to be some resolution to this story and chances are very good that it will not be a happily ever after so much as a manageable ever after for Westeros.  Seasons will normalize, segregation will be abolished,  I don't see any reason for Jon or Dany or Tyrion to die, but plenty of reason for frickin' Little Finger to die so I expect him to survive.  For all it's worth. 

I feel the exact same when it comes to Little Finger. He will be alive at the end. 

[Mat92]

22 hours ago, mosaab said:

Now Jon surviving a horrific apocalyptic war to rule a broken kingdom that is war torn,disease ridden, famished & broke. That I find bittersweet. 

I have always suspected that he will survive but not rule at the end, rather he'll save the day and go back to rebuilding the Nights Watch. The events of the  series have always been cyclical, history repeating itself and so on. I expect the Others to be "defeated" at the end, but Jon being smart enough to realise they thought that in the first place, and the NW - or some equivalent - should continue should the threat arise again. 

Him dying a second time would be less satisfactory. It seems more in line that he will be an unrecognised hero, or at least be fine with doing his duty rather than ruling Winterfell/Westeros. The NW gave him a purpose he never had and he grew to accept who he was. I don't think that he will do much with the revelation of his parentage because he's already found his identity.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Don't know, i'll keep reading...

What i would like to read is an explanation for jon's abnormal strenght levels (wich are written "in your face" style by george), that isn't the extremmely crappy and nonsensical one of "waking the dragon", because martin is better than that AND no one woke the dragon on the trident, on the red keep when ser jaime did some cutting or heck, since i can remember, so all of a sudden the wake the dragon explanation is valid? since when anyone woke the dragon to have more strenght, the only strong "dragon" was maelys and we all know he was strong because he was gregor-lite in size not because he shouted a power-ranger phrase like the one mentioned above

[khal drogon]

I see Dany as the most likely candidate for the "sacrificing for greater good" than Jon. Jon is something I couldn't predict at all. It depends on what he changes into but I think his destiny lies in the North. I agree that his second death would be really cheap if he "sacrificed himself" and those kinds of deaths are cliche's of fantasies. Also I don't prefer the route where he is the sole hero who saves the day and goes on to become a king. I think he is the key. But a key can't do anything by itself. So he needs the other pieces of the puzzle to bring on the endgame. For me the end will bring characters together but temporarily and they will break away. My most preferred bittersweet ending for Jon involves him becoming the King of the Free Folk. He doesn't seem to be a ruler on a throne and he will never be a good ruler in a throne. But he could be to the Free Folk or to the North.

Don't care too much about the bittersweet ending. It doesn't have to end in a specific way for it to be bittersweet. Only the tone of the ending should be bittersweet which Martin could bring to any ending.  

On 12/16/2016 at 10:44 PM, JLE said:

Dragons do not build. They burn.

Dragons also united Westeros. The Iron throne,the binding factor itself is forged by dragon fire. Unification seems to be the purpose of literal and metaphorical dragons in this story. 

[Damsel in Distress]

To the O/P,

Jon sacrificed the greater good to rescue his sister.  Jon is a traitor who chose Arya over the welfare of the realm and betrayed the Night Watch.  It is a fitting end for him to die from his stab wounds.  He is a tragic figure who can't put aside his personal feelings to do his duty.