The Ways In Which The Wall Will NOT Fall (A Poll from a Newbie)

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

Hey guys, this is my first time posting on the General subforum-  I think. The reason why I am doing so is because I have a discussion that I would like to start for a while now. I feel like readers should have reached a consensus on this subject a long time ago like R+L=J (which surprisingly still has its own set of detractors in wrongful denial).

As we readers are waiting for the WoW, let us use our fandom in beneficial way and reach a consensus. Hopefully, this consensus will prevent any possible bad/retconned writing on any authors when it comes to the fall of the Wall.

I am pretty certain there are 3 ways the Wall will NOT be nullified.

1.)The first deals with the forces of the wights and White Walkers possibly traveling around the ocean to attack Westeros: it seems pretty clear that they cannot. From sheer implications alone, mankind would have to be extremely unintelligent if they wasted resources manning the Wall when it does nothing to the ginormous, strategic advantages of the White Walkers; there would be almost no point to the Wall if the White Walkers and their wights can attack from anywhere among thousands of miles of shoreline. To be completely clear on my message, mankind in ASOIAF - whatever their flaws - were/are nowhere near being this idiotic as a collective whole. Whether the Wall was built by humans, the White Walkers, or a combination of other races does not really matter: the humans are the ones who spent resources maintaining it against the cold wights. Besides this sheer implication there are other strong implications as well: not only did the wights never attacked from the shorelines, no cold wights were ever raised south of the Wall either. Given the power of the White Walkers to raise the wights, this abrupt change means that the protective magic exists not only at the Wall but in the oceans as well. True, the White Walkers are made out of water, but so are many other things. Whether gods exist in this universe or not does not matter: the magical differences between Ice and (Salt) Water seems to be realms apart much like the differences between Fire and Air. If the Deep Ones do exist - a reasonable possibility - then this strong implication would be driven home: White Walkers' magic are nullified in the oceans. If the Deep Ones do not exist, then we still have the Children of the Forest as the only known masters of Salt Water, and the point for the White Walkers would be the same.

2.)The second point deals with the WW and wight armies breaking through from the West. I am still confused whether the Westwatch-by-the-Bridge is on the Wall side or the other side, but I am confident enough to make this point: if this was a weakness, the early Night's Watch would have dealt with it by now. Furthermore, the West side is most easy to defend. The bridge is extremely narrow and can be broken down quickly once the true threat is realized. The cliffs are as tall the Wall if I remember correctly and (here is another interesting clue) ice can potentially break off on climbing soldiers much like the rest of the Wall due to the sheer vertical nature of the slopes. The wights would be squashed by these falling ice-stones by themselves. If I am not mistaken, this has not happened yet at the cliffs, but the implications are rather undeniable. I am sure the wights would attempt to attack from West side (because that would give readers the right amount of spook)  but the men would most likely held them off until the true fall of the Wall.

3.)The final point will deal with Gorne's Way and the tunnel systems in the North. This one is easy: the Children of the Forest are masters of the Earth and these peoples are definitely against having their trees blown up from ice and coldness. What does this leave us with? Even if the Night's King can break some spells against the Children's wishes (like in the show), he could only do it to one dungeons of the Three Eyed Raven. It is doubtful that he would have enough power to nullify the magic of the entire tunnel systems needed to reach the other side. The Northerners were most prepared for winter, and their actions should reasonably reward them in some way. It would be bad writing if these Northerners do not survive in large numbers under the tunnels as the White Walkers are eliminated at the grounds above.

In short, there is a limit to how 'unique' the authors can be without being irredeemable trolls. The Chekhov's Gun needs to go out with a visual bang, not through some sneaky and immature bypasses. After reading the arguments, what are your opinions:

A: I agree that the 'unprotected' oceans would not be the Wall's undoing.

B: I agree that the Western bridge and the gorge would not be the Wall's undoing.

C: I agree that the extensive tunnels under the Wall would not be the Wall's undoing.

D: I agree with two things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing (please specify which).

E:  I agree with all the things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing.

F:  I agree with some or all the things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing, plus some other unlisted possibilities (please them us about it!)

G:  Other

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

Blood will bring it down

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

But do you at least agree that the Walls will not be brought down through methods mentioned in the OP?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

True, the White Walkers are made out of water,

This is new to me. How do we know this? Is it based on what happens when Sam kills one?

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

9 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is new to me. How do we know this?

Actually, that was a reasonable assumption, I think. Ice armor and weapons, etc.

I assume that every living organisms -however alien - in Martin's universe are made out of a percentage of water. The White Walkers just seem to utilize ice (from fresh water?) better than humans, but that still leaves out the oceans.  I think this is signifying that the oceans belong to another realm and cannot be used by the White Walkers without transgressing upon some more fundamental magic.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

A: I agree that the 'unprotected' oceans would not be the Wall's undoing.

B: I agree that the Western bridge and the gorge would not be the Wall's undoing.

C: I agree that the extensive tunnels under the Wall would not be the Wall's undoing.

D: I agree with two things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing (please specify which).

E:  I agree with all the things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing.

F:  I agree with some or all the things listed here as not being the main causes of the Wall's undoing, plus some other unlisted possibilities (please them us about it!)

G:  Other

Let me preface this with I don't know if the Wall is gonna come tumbling down. Although I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your definition of "the Wall's undoing."

a. I agree the Others can't walk on water.

b. It's iffy, but maybe the Others can circumvent the Wall near Shadow Tower.

c. the tunnels or underground passageways may be used by Bran & company.

d. I got nuttin.

e. can't say because I do not comprehend your "Walls undoing" reference.

f. I got nuttin

g. nada

[rotting sea cow]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

Blood will bring it down

Good that someone pointed out, The Wall is made o'blood.

I agree with the OP, there are not 'holes' in the Wall as long as it stand strong and the Night Watch stays true.  The Others haven't figured out yet how to bring it down. The wilding attack was a first attempt.

[Black Crow]

Ygritte reckons the Wall is evil I rather suspect that it needs to come down, hence my quoting Janet Clouston - and I'm sure GRRM can too.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

On 17/12/2016 at 11:51 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

Let me preface this with I don't know if the Wall is gonna come tumbling down. Although I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your definition of "the Wall's undoing."

e. can't say because I do not comprehend your "Walls undoing" reference

It means that these possible methods of invasions aren't really possible. Here is how the prestige of  the wall would be stupidly destroyed/undone: "Hurr, hurr, we men built a 300 mile long wall, there is no way White Walkers can bypass this without battle......ooops, the wights are attacking the far south from the beaches, already killing off everyone and bringing winter. Drat, the wall isn't going to go out with a bang is it? What was the point of maintaining the Chekhov wall again?"

[Lord Vance II]

On 12/17/2016 at 8:28 AM, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

A: I agree that the 'unprotected' oceans would not be the Wall's undoing.

They can't walk on water, but I don't see any reason the Others couldn't drive send the wights underwater. Cotter Pyke's report seems to suggest they could survive underwater, they're dead anyways. 

Not saying that I think this will happen, mainly because I think it would have been foreshadowed by now, but I wouldn't rule it out. 

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

8 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

They can't walk on water, but I don't see any reason the Others couldn't drive send the wights underwater. Cotter Pyke's report seems to suggest they could survive underwater, they're dead anyways. 

Not saying that I think this will happen, mainly because I think it would have been foreshadowed by now, but I wouldn't rule it out. 

It is still possible I guess. I am making a bet that the Ocean would undo the wight's magic somehow ( you wights belonged to the White Walkers and not to the Deep Ones, so you are not allowed to pass through the ocean).

Of course, I am also betting on the existence of the Deep Ones in this series.

[rotting sea cow]

On 12/17/2016 at 11:18 PM, Black Crow said:

Ygritte reckons the Wall is evil I rather suspect that it needs to come down, hence my quoting Janet Clouston - and I'm sure GRRM can too.

I never heard that quote before, but I fully agree with it. The Wall needs to come down and there won't be a 'Bran the rebuilder'.

By building the Wall (implied by cruel means) the realm was protected of an existential threat, but at the same time kept the population north of the Wall vulnerable to that threat and worse, they have been kept in blockade for thousands of years, not allowing them, for example, to freely trade with other people. 

[Black Crow]

Kidnapped - Robert Louis Stevenson, but its achingly apt

[Morgana Lannister]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:24 PM, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

It is still possible I guess. I am making a bet that the Ocean would undo the wight's magic somehow ( you wights belonged to the White Walkers and not to the Deep Ones, so you are not allowed to pass through the ocean).

Of course, I am also betting on the existence of the Deep Ones in this series.

There is definitely something with water and magic.  This keeps re-occurring in almost any fantasy involving wizards and whatnot.  Now, I think George is not going for "water" as much as "salt water."  This although it may appear unrelated to the Others I think has to link with some of the Iron Islands beliefs and it is interesting their saying "what is dead can never die" which could point (in plain view) to dead creatures of power under their oceans.  George has said is not going to be involving deities as such.  Okay people believe in gods but basically that gods won't become characters or something (the way I read it).  However, one other instance that made me think of the Iron Islands, but this time with just river water not salt water, was LSH resurrection.  She had been under water for 3 days if I recall and okay she was brought back but in a very pitiful state, much more so than Beric for instance and I certainly don't expect Jon to end up like her either.  So, water can damage the undead or potential undead as it were.  Also, note how different regions dispose of their dead.  The Wildlings burn them (for obvious reasons as they don't want them to become WWs), most of the Kingdoms bury them (which seems to be going out of fashion as this seems unable to protect people from "wrongful" as it were resurrection).  The Iron Born drown them and now that I think about it the Riverlands send them off into water in a boat as well.  I think both fire and water prevent the creation of undeads at least to a point so I am pretty certain that WWs are not terribly fond of water as a general rule.  Against this, though is the fact that they seem to be "in their element" with ice, so maybe I am just talking rubbish here lol  Still I think we are onto something.

As for the OP initial questions.  I certainly agree with the first point and inclined to believe in the other two also but definitely convinced of the first one.  Indeed there would have been no point in building the Wall if it could be so easily circumvented by water.  Of course there is the fact that it also has served to keep wildlings out but I think this was not the reason it was built, merely something they conveniently used later on (Night Watch and people from South of the Wall in general).

[Unknownfinger]

The broken horn that was found at the First of the First men is the Horn of Winter. Sam has this horn and has taken with him to Oldtown. Even after Sam sells off just about all his possessions to secure passage from Bravos to Oldtown we are told specifically that Sam still has the horn and takes it with him to the Citadel. At some point Euron is going to take the horn and use it to knock down the wall. He may climb the Hightower and do it from there but Euron will be responsible for the destruction of the wall.  

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

4 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

The broken horn that was found at the First of the First men is the Horn of Winter. Sam has this horn and has taken with him to Oldtown. Even after Sam sells off just about all his possessions to secure passage from Bravos to Oldtown we are told specifically that Sam still has the horn and takes it with him to the Citadel. At some point Euron is going to take the horn and use it to knock down the wall. He may climb the Hightower and do it from there but Euron will be responsible for the destruction of the wall.  

Yes, that is one of the possible ways the wall would be defeated. Certainly more possible than the 3 ways mentioned in the OP.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

23 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

There is definitely something with water and magic.  This keeps re-occurring in almost any fantasy involving wizards and whatnot.  Now, I think George is not going for "water" as much as "salt water."  This although it may appear unrelated to the Others I think has to link with some of the Iron Islands beliefs and it is interesting their saying "what is dead can never die" which could point (in plain view) to dead creatures of power under their oceans.  George has said is not going to be involving deities as such.  Okay people believe in gods but basically that gods won't become characters or something (the way I read it).  However, one other instance that made me think of the Iron Islands, but this time with just river water not salt water, was LSH resurrection.  She had been under water for 3 days if I recall and okay she was brought back but in a very pitiful state, much more so than Beric for instance and I certainly don't expect Jon to end up like her either.  So, water can damage the undead or potential undead as it were.  Also, note how different regions vary their dead.  The Wildlings burn them (for obvious reasons as they don't want them to become WWs), most of the Kingdoms bury them (which seems to be going out of fashion as this seems unable to protect people from "wrongful" as it were resurrection).  The Iron Born drown them and now that I think about it the Riverlands send them off into water in a boat as well.  I think both fire and water prevent the creation of undeads at least to a point so I am pretty certain that WWs are not terribly fond of water as a general rule.  Against this, though is the fact that they seem to be "in their element" with ice, so maybe I am just talking rubbish here lol  Still I think we are onto something.

As for the OP initial questions.  I certainly agree with the first point and inclined to believe in the other two also but definitely convinced of the first one.  Indeed there would have been no point in building the Wall if it could be so easily circumvented by water.  Of course there is the fact that it also has served to keep wildlings out but I think this was not the reason it was built, merely something they conveniently used later on (Night Watch and people from South of the Wall in general).

These are great observations! I think I will start another thread dealing the subject of water specifically.

[Morgana Lannister]

2 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

These are great observations! I think I will start another thread dealing the subject of water specifically.

Let me know when you do; interested in this, will follow you and you can message me with link in case I miss it as there are a lot of new threads here and I might miss it