Why Daenerys Dayne may not be a ridiculous idea.

[khal drogon]

Because there are some subtle hints for it and these are not well explained by her Targaryen parentage. But I feel Dany's childhood is intentionally kept vague for some reasons and a twist there won't be unlikely. Let's leave the usual questions like "What would a different parentage achieve?" and focus only on why those odd clues are included. I would leave the infamous "Lemon tree theories" which doesn't need any more explanation because it will only lead to more controversies and focus only on the Dayne - Daenerys connection.

First lets talk about Daynes 

        Daynes are one of the oldest houses in the seven kingdoms who precede Valyrians but they also possess traits that are perceived as Valyrian traits like silver hair and purple eyes. Their seat is in Dorne. Their coat of arms is a falling star on a purple background. They have a sword called Dawn. The first Daynes are said to have found a fallen rock from the sky which had magical powers and I presume these are the mystical oily black stones that are found around the world which connects them to Great Empire of Dawn. We know that empire had Gemstone Emperors who are the same kings that lined the hallways in Dany's dream. 

Dany's connection to all

         It is not a mere coincidence that Dany connects to all the points said about the Daynes. She is associated with the color purple and star symbolism frequents in her chapters. Stars which could mean both the red comet and Quaithe guide her like the falling star guided the way for the Daynes to find their house. According to Quaithe, Dany will touch "Light" at the end just like the Daynes touched the fallen Star and forged Dawn which could be the Lightbringer. Also the inclusion of a mysterious family who possess Valyrian traits doesn't look like it is just there for world building purpose. The inclusion of these traits must have a greater purpose than giving Ashara her fabled beauty or anything that have to do with Darkstar. Maybe it is a cover for the secret parentage of a major character. Also there is the Daenerys Dorne connection which cannot be ignored.

Ashara and Daenerys

          Barristan notices their similarity. They both have the same eyes. Though it could be dismissed as Barristan saw what he wanted to see. But it could also be one of the many hints that connect her to the Daynes. 

But the dragons prove she is a Targaryen

          But does it really? Can only a Valyrian ride a dragon? Is it said so by Martin? The only irrefutable proof that she is a Targaryen is not really a solid one. If the Daynes and the Valyrians had a common ancestor then the Daynes could also have inherited dragon riding traits. Or maybe Dany's bond with her dragons formed because of other ways that could enable a non-Valyrian to bond with a dragon like how the dragonbinder works. There are also these cryptic words from Quaithe "Remember who you are. The dragons know it." But Daenerys doesn't have to remember she is a Targaryen which she already knows. I think these words have more to it than putting Dany in a war path. 

Does it all really mean something? We don't know. But these sure raise a lot of interesting questions. Maybe the Daynes are insignificant to the endgame but the connection between the Lightbringer and the Daynes says more than their ancestral sword. And Daenerys could be an interesting way to make them more significant.

 

 

 

         

[Sigella]

Firstly I agree on the Dany Dayne-thing you got going.

Pro: that Barristan Selmy chapter where he finds Danys eye "hauntingly like Asharas" (or something like that) which he drops right in-between other more dramatic stuff.

Con: not sure of how many Targs are intermarried with the Daynes though... Could be from them they have the look. 

[khal drogon]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Con: not sure of how many Targs are intermarried with the Daynes though... Could be from them they have the look. 

Not many I suppose. Also we don't see purple eyes in any of the other houses that Targ intermarried with haviing as much frequency as the Daynes. 

[LynnS]

I'm on board with Dany daughter of Ashara. Just the Dawn Sword itself in one family going back to the dawn age, age of heros etc., that's a very old blood line itself.  Older than the Targaryens. So yes, I think that's significant.  The Targaryen bloodline might not be as important as we think but a bloodline potentially tied to the events of the first long night would be.  

[Scorpion92]

Well, if you use LmL's essays as reference point, Dany being a bastard daughter of Ashara and Ned will make sense in following symbolic sense:

Ned, "solar king" figure, "Azor Ahai", forged Lightbringer first at Riverrun "by water" - conceived Robb with "water" associated Catelyn Tully.

Jon is the second stage of his "Lightbringer" forging. Basically, Tywin killed Jon's half-siblings - "tempered by lion and snapped in two" phase. This forced Ned to adopt Jon as his bastard son, otherwise, he knew what would happen to his nephew with new Baratheon/Lannister regime at the capital. Jon is his second attempt at Light bringer forgind (and the last third attempt IF we reference Rhaegar as "solar king" archetype, because several characters can play this role in this story).

His trip to Starfall and "driving a sword through the heart of his wife which creates Lighbringer" is the last and final attempt of Ned forging the flaming sword. We know from the accounts of Edric Dayne how Ned "broke the heart" of his aunt. 

Since the first two phases resulted in Ned gaining a child, then logically it leads me to believe Ned and Ashara conceived a child at Starfall before they said farewell. By all accounts how honorable Ned Stark was, so if Ashara was indeed dishonored at Harrenhal, then I believe they agreed that he would marry her whenever his fostetring at Vale was done. That was before the events that led to Brandon and Rickard's deaths and Ned became Lord of Winterfell and had to fulfill Brandon's obligation to marry Cat.

No wonder Ashara was "heartbroken" and "commited suicide" shortly after Ned left. He was supposed to be her husband, but he married another.

From Azor Ahai and Lightbringer forging metaphor it kinda makes sense, if you ask me.

I think George will reveal Dany's true parentage at the very end of the series through Bran's weirwodd visions, which will reveal to the audience that Ned was indeed human and had passion and love for this beautiful maid, but circumstances and war destroyed both their lives. If Ned Stark INDEED had a bastard child, and that child was Daenerys, this will be the final and fitting piece to the mystery of "a song of ice and fire".

Jon is a Targaryen trueborn (if Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry) who was raised as a Stark bastard, while Dany is a Stark bastard raised as a Targaryen trueborn. They are BOTH "ice and fire" of this series, and the reason why these two have so many parallels between them (countless threads about it).

This story will just drive the point of your social status meaning zilch even in such a cruel and patriarchic society if Dany is indeed Ned's bastard daughter. You are who you are thanks to your actions and deeds, not your bloodline, and who YOU believe you are. Dany's "I am the blood of the dragon" mindset and her achievements thanks to her BELIEF who she is actually is the best illustrated example of my point.

I cannot wait for Winds of Winter for proving this theory, craving new tidbits.

[Mat92]

I like this and I agree with all of your points.

My one concern is that Ned never reflects on any of this during his chapters in GoT. He thinks about Jon a lot and the promise he made Lyanna. This is a lie that he had to tell to keep Jon safe - he besmirches his honour (in the eyes of the public) to tell this lie. And we know that Ned is a very honourable man, and this motivates almost all of his decisions. 

So in this instance, Ned actually fathers a child with Ashara (who turns out to be Dany and not Jon) - this would actually be dishonourable for him as it was real, as opposed to the lie of Jon being his bastard. Seems like something he might reflect on more in his chapters.

It could be explained by him having Jon with him and not knowing Dany, therefore he thinks of him more. It's possible that maybe he didn't know Ashara was pregnant, or believed the child died, or has no idea that Dany was his? I don't see anything in his actions towards saving Dany in GoT that extend beyond wanting to protect an innocent Targ (ala Jon). 

Not sure how the timeline works for all this. But it's super interesting and I want to know more!!!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

What's the logistics of the alleged Dayne child becoming Daenerys Stormborn? Some baby swap (never can have too much of those)? The queen having an affair with Arthur Dayne?

[Greywater-Watch]

The birth of Daenerys by Rhaella Targaeryen was wittnessed at least by Willem Darry and Viserys (at his age of 8) on Dragonstone. So: Rhaella being Daenery's mother is a fact that can hardly be doubted, I think.

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, if you use LmL's essays as reference point, Dany being a bastard daughter of Ashara and Ned will make sense in following symbolic sense:

Ned, "solar king" figure, "Azor Ahai", forged Lightbringer first at Riverrun "by water" - conceived Robb with "water" associated Catelyn Tully.

Jon is the second stage of his "Lightbringer" forging. Basically, Tywin killed Jon's half-siblings - "tempered by lion and snapped in two" phase. This forced Ned to adopt Jon as his bastard son, otherwise, he knew what would happen to his nephew with new Baratheon/Lannister regime at the capital. Jon is his second attempt at Light bringer forgind (and the last third attempt IF we reference Rhaegar as "solar king" archetype, because several characters can play this role in this story).

His trip to Starfall and "driving a sword through the heart of his wife which creates Lighbringer" is the last and final attempt of Ned forging the flaming sword. We know from the accounts of Edric Dayne how Ned "broke the heart" of his aunt. 

Since the first two phases resulted in Ned gaining a child, then logically it leads me to believe Ned and Ashara conceived a child at Starfall before they said farewell. By all accounts how honorable Ned Stark was, so if Ashara was indeed dishonored at Harrenhal, then I believe they agreed that he would marry her whenever his fostetring at Vale was done. That was before the events that led to Brandon and Rickard's deaths and Ned became Lord of Winterfell and had to fulfill Brandon's obligation to marry Cat.

No wonder Ashara was "heartbroken" and "commited suicide" shortly after Ned left. He was supposed to be her husband, but he married another.

From Azor Ahai and Lightbringer forging metaphor it kinda makes sense, if you ask me.

I think George will reveal Dany's true parentage at the very end of the series through Bran's weirwodd visions, which will reveal to the audience that Ned was indeed human and had passion and love for this beautiful maid, but circumstances and war destroyed both their lives. If Ned Stark INDEED had a bastard child, and that child was Daenerys, this will be the final and fitting piece to the mystery of "a song of ice and fire".

Jon is a Targaryen trueborn (if Rhaegar and Lyanna did marry) who was raised as a Stark bastard, while Dany is a Stark bastard raised as a Targaryen trueborn. They are BOTH "ice and fire" of this series, and the reason why these two have so many parallels between them (countless threads about it).

This story will just drive the point of your social status meaning zilch even in such a cruel and patriarchic society if Dany is indeed Ned's bastard daughter. You are who you are thanks to your actions and deeds, not your bloodline, and who YOU believe you are. Dany's "I am the blood of the dragon" mindset and her achievements thanks to her BELIEF who she is actually is the best illustrated example of my point.

I cannot wait for Winds of Winter for proving this theory, craving new tidbits.

I'm in doubt as to who might be the father. I rather like it to be the Mad King dishonoring Ashara, who else could "get away" with such a thing?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I'm in doubt as to who might be the father. I rather like it to be the Mad King dishonoring Ashara, who else could "get away" with such a thing?

Exactly so.  There's not much her brother can do about it as a member of the kingsguard.  That lines Dany up neatly to fit the prophecy in lieu of Rhaegar.

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

The birth of Daenerys by Rhaella Targaeryen was wittnessed at least by Willem Darry and Viserys (at his age of 8) on Dragonstone. So: Rhaella being Daenery's mother is a fact that can hardly be doubted, I think.

Are you proposing that Rhaella gave birth with her son and castellan in the same room?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

40 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Are you proposing that Rhaella gave birth with her son and castellan in the same room?

It's much more likely than the Queen's baby having passed for another.

[The Fattest Leech]

23 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Because there are some subtle hints for it and these are not well explained by her Targaryen parentage. But I feel Dany's childhood is intentionally kept vague for some reasons and a twist there won't be unlikely. Let's leave the usual questions like "What would a different parentage achieve?"

I will only tough on this briefly because I think this is actually one of the most interesting reasons why this could happen. If Westeros is ruled by Jon and Dany (whether separate or together), then this will show was BS it is that to rule you must only be from a godly, noble family. It undoes the idea that bastards are born traitors, dumb, incompetent, etc.

23 hours ago, khal drogon said:

 

First lets talk about Daynes 

        Daynes are one of the oldest houses in the seven kingdoms who precede Valyrians but they also possess traits that are perceived as Valyrian traits like silver hair and purple eyes. Their seat is in Dorne. Their coat of arms is a falling star on a purple background. They have a sword called Dawn. The first Daynes are said to have found a fallen rock from the sky which had magical powers and I presume these are the mystical oily black stones that are found around the world which connects them to Great Empire of Dawn. We know that empire had Gemstone Emperors who are the same kings that lined the hallways in Dany's dream. 

I have always wondered about this and these possible connections intrigue me more everyday.

23 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Dany's connection to all

         It is not a mere coincidence that Dany connects to all the points said about the Daynes. She is associated with the color purple and star symbolism frequents in her chapters. Stars which could mean both the red comet and Quaithe guide her like the falling star guided the way for the Daynes to find their house. According to Quaithe, Dany will touch "Light" at the end just like the Daynes touched the fallen Star and forged Dawn which could be the Lightbringer. Also the inclusion of a mysterious family who possess Valyrian traits doesn't look like it is just there for world building purpose. The inclusion of these traits must have a greater purpose than giving Ashara her fabled beauty or anything that have to do with Darkstar. Maybe it is a cover for the secret parentage of a major character. Also there is the Daenerys Dorne connection which cannot be ignored.

Speculative for this thread, but, if Dany goes to the Dosh Khaleen and has some sort of a vision about her origins, than that would parallel nicely with what is most likely going to happen to Jon at about the same time.

Also, Daenerys does have a few conversations with stars at the end of Dance, and Daynes are star people.

23 hours ago, khal drogon said:

But the dragons prove she is a Targaryen

          But does it really? Can only a Valyrian ride a dragon? Is it said so by Martin? The only irrefutable proof that she is a Targaryen is not really a solid one. If the Daynes and the Valyrians had a common ancestor then the Daynes could also have inherited dragon riding traits. Or maybe Dany's bond with her dragons formed because of other ways that could enable a non-Valyrian to bond with a dragon like how the dragonbinder works. There are also these cryptic words from Quaithe "Remember who you are. The dragons know it." But Daenerys doesn't have to remember she is a Targaryen which she already knows. I think these words have more to it than putting Dany in a war path. 

Could be. I hope this is something that keeps her from Targ madness and will surprise! readers???

23 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Does it all really mean something? We don't know. But these sure raise a lot of interesting questions. Maybe the Daynes are insignificant to the endgame but the connection between the Lightbringer and the Daynes says more than their ancestral sword. And Daenerys could be an interesting way to make them more significant.

Doubt it. We also see some of this paralleled in Jaime and Brienne's story together. I don't think it is a coincidence that the Daynes are popping up in the story, in more than one way, the closer we get to the end.

I admit that I am not super good with every timeline in the story, and the measter's aren't much help either, but the question always goes back to: Does the timeline add up?

[Wrl6199]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I will only tough on this briefly because I think this is actually one of the most interesting reasons why this could happen. If Westeros is ruled by Jon and Dany (whether separate or together), then this will show was BS it is that to rule you must only be from a godly, noble family. It undoes the idea that bastards are born traitors, dumb, incompetent, etc.

I have always wondered about this and these possible connections intrigue me more everyday.

Speculative for this thread, but, if Dany goes to the Dosh Khaleen and has some sort of a vision about her origins, than that would parallel nicely with what is most likely going to happen to Jon at about the same time.

Also, Daenerys does have a few conversations with stars at the end of Dance, and Daynes are star people.

Could be. I hope this is something that keeps her from Targ madness and will surprise! readers???

Doubt it. We also see some of this paralleled in Jaime and Brienne's story together. I don't think it is a coincidence that the Daynes are popping up in the story, in more than one way, the closer we get to the end.

I admit that I am not super good with every timeline in the story, and the measter's aren't much help either, but the question always goes back to: Does the timeline add up?

Most of the timeline seems to add up except for with some minor details.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Wrl6199 said:

Most of the timeline seems to add up except for with some minor details.

Ahhh, but details matter. It could be the difference between he left last week so the baby is yours, or, he left last night so I am not sure

We don't have first hand accounts to explain the subtle differences, only maester's who are writing an extremely skewed book in favor of the current rulers and close related family. Look how they describe Cersei . Yes, Cersei is pretty, but this is a bit much, and Cersei is queen and/or regent when this happens:

• As his first act, the unwed king took to wife the most beautiful woman in the realm, Cersei of House Lannister—thereby granting to House Lannister all the honors that Aerys had denied it.

[SFDanny]

May I remind everyone that Daenerys is also a Dayne as well as her Targaryen heritage. Her great-great grandmother was Dyanna Dayne, wife to Egg's father Maekar. If it becomes an important part of the story for Dany to be a Dayne, she already is without the need of secret marriages or clandestine romances we have nothing to suggest actually happened. The same can be said of Jon, if he is Rhaegar's son.

I'm very, very unimpressed with the idea that Dany lived a secret life, unknown to even her, in Dorne. We have too much evidence that points to her being Daenerys Stormborn, child of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen, born on Dragonstone during a great storm, and raised in her early years in Braavos.

 

[Khal Pod]

4 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

May I remind everyone that Daenerys is also a Dayne as well as her Targaryen heritage. Her great-great grandmother was Dyanna Dayne, wife to Egg's father Maekar. If it becomes an important part of the story for Dany to be a Dayne, she already is without the need of secret marriages or clandestine romances we have nothing to suggest actually happened. The same can be said of Jon, if he is Rhaegar's son.

I'm very, very unimpressed with the idea that Dany lived a secret life, unknown to even her, in Dorne. We have too much evidence that points to her being Daenerys Stormborn, child of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen, born on Dragonstone during a great storm, and raised in her early years in Braavos.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Are you proposing that Rhaella gave birth with her son and castellan in the same room?

And several other people, most likely. Royal births were not private affairs.

[SFDanny]

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And several other people, most likely. Royal births were not private affairs.

Whoever was the Dragonstone maester would be there, and well as any ladies-in-waiting who went to the island with Rhaella. Various servants, a possible midwife, a wet nurse, and on, and on. Not private at all.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

May I remind everyone that Daenerys is also a Dayne as well as her Targaryen heritage. Her great-great grandmother was Dyanna Dayne, wife to Egg's father Maekar. If it becomes an important part of the story for Dany to be a Dayne, she already is without the need of secret marriages or clandestine romances we have nothing to suggest actually happened. The same can be said of Jon, if he is Rhaegar's son.

I'm very, very unimpressed with the idea that Dany lived a secret life, unknown to even her, in Dorne. We have too much evidence that points to her being Daenerys Stormborn, child of Aerys II and Rhaella Targaryen, born on Dragonstone during a great storm, and raised in her early years in Braavos.

 

One thing I was wondering when reading the main post is who the OP would suggest as a Dayne father, IF there is one, as another poster seemed to ask as well. If that was the only change then the rest could go on as we know it.

Maybe since the Daynes are older in Westeros than the Targaryens are, maybe this idea puts them back on the throne (if one stands) instead of a Targaryen? Just an idea.