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Why Daenerys Dayne may not be a ridiculous idea.


khal drogon

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7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. Game, Dany IX
Out of fear, she becomes the Dragon--and the ghosts with the pale swords (that's gotta be Dawn) tell her to go faster--but not "fly"--are they warning her?

Oh excellent!  Ghosts with pale swords or in other words the ancestors and the pale stone sword. Hair color and eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade dates them to the great civilization that was destroyed. 

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20 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--I've also been agreeing a lot lately with those who have argued that the Ice Dragon is a euphemism for the Others--which would explain why Jon is associated with it if he's supposed to fight them off. Or deal with them--especially if the Others do end up having a tie to the Starks.

At the moment. I'm going with the Ice Dragon as the personification of the Wall or the magic that created it and those that are transformed by it could be said to be riding the dragon.  In particular Jon who is referred to as 'Jon on the Wall' not unlike Bran, 'the Stark in Winterfell". 

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh excellent!  Ghosts with pale swords or in other words the ancestors and the pale stone sword. Hair color and eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline and jade dates them to the great civilization that was destroyed. 

YUP! @Lady Barbrey's theories on this are amazing--purple sails of Braavos tied to the purple of the Daynes--and the Amethyst Empress and the anti-slavery movement.

But I'd also argue that the ghosts don't just tie to the lost empire.

They tie to the Daynes themselves with those swords of pale fire--Martin showed us that sword earlier in the same novel with Arthur holding Dawn: "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. Game, Eddard X

So, not just a trace of ancient history--but a tie to a living house.

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At the moment. I'm going with the Ice Dragon as the personification of the Wall or the magic that created it and those that are transformed by it could be said to be riding the dragon.  In particular Jon who is referred to as 'Jon on the Wall' not unlike Bran, 'the Stark in Winterfell". 

I can definitely go with this.

Osha clearly says the ice dragon has a rider--that the "way to the Wall" and beyond is to "chase" the dragon's rider (very interesting phrasing). 

"Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?"
"The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." She backed through a door and started up the winding steps. Clash, Bran V
Though Bran doesn't remember this--he thinks the blue star is the dragon's eye: 
When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once. Storm, Bran II
And the later novels have made it VERY clear that Jon is tied to the Wall and the Wall to the Ice Dragon. So, the magics that made the Wall--and potentially the magics that the Night's King succumbed to--yes--chasing that could transform one into an ice dragon--I can definitely see that.
Just as Dany seems likely to forget her humanity and embrace the dragon--even as she thinks she wants to use it for good.
Embracing the pale flame sword seems like a wiser path--alive with light. 
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  • 10 months later...
On 1/2/2017 at 2:37 PM, PrettyPig said:

I'll propose something I worked out a while back that could possibly resolve the mystery of the "dishonoring", as well as provide some support for Dany as a Dayne/daughter of Ashara.      This won't be a popular idea as it will be in conflict with some favorite fan theories, but my purpose was really just to ferret out scenarios that might work.    Although I have a couple more, this one seems to check the most boxes.

First, I want to highlight GRRM's description of Rhaegar and Elia's relationship as "it's complicated", plus the notion from the text that Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia.     Those two things in combination lean toward the idea that while the marriage may not have been necessarily bad, it wasn't a hotbed of passion, either.

Let's follow that up with two SSMs from some long ago fan conversations regarding Dorne and paramours.

1.  Scifi.com Chat, December 2000:

Moderator: <Linda> to <Moderator>: A couple of times in the books, the word "paramour" is used in connection with the Dornishmen (Lord Yronwood's paramour and Ellaria Sand), but no one else. Is that meant to connote customs and habits peculiar to the Dornish, or is it simply coincidence?
GRRM: Dornish customs and habits.  The Rhoynar influence.   A Dornishman's paramour has a certain status, below that of a wife but not insignifcant.

2.  ConJose August 2002:

Can any noble have a paramour regardless of gender, rank, or marital status? For example, an unwed young heiress having a paramour.
No comment.

Could each partner in a marriage have their own paramour?
Yes, but it would depend on the rank of the partners.

So there's some typical GRRM hedging there, but now we know that A/ paramours aren't exactly bottom-of-the-barrel mistresses, and B/ married people can have paramours.

 

Now, let's turn to this oft-discussion passage given to us from Barristan's PoV, ADWD The Kingbreaker:

In my exercise, I broke out some of the individual statements in this passage and tried to look at each independent of any other data or conclusion - so this is kicking out any "Brandon and Ashara got busy in his tent" and "Aerys raped Ashara" stuff straight away.     The text itself is rather ambiguously worded as well, so I wanted to see what was actually being said.

Going out of order, the famous final line:

Barristan is looking at this from the perspective of the person who placed second at the tourney, the guy who lost to the champion, Prince Rhaegar Targareyn.     This is some tricksy wording here, because Barristan thinks had he won, had he given her the QoLaB laurel, Ashara would have looked to him...the VICTOR...instead of Stark.      This somewhat implies that winning the tourney was important because Ashara "looked to" the champion - however, this does not follow logically, because the champion was Rhaegar...and Ashara didn't look to Rhaegar, she looked to Stark.   But...no Stark was victorious at the tourney.

No male Stark.      Brandon, Ned, and Benjen didn't win a thing...but another Stark took home quite a high honor indeed.

 

Next, this line:

So no surprise there - if Rhaegar had picked his own wife, all would have stayed right with the world.     Much war and woe might have been avoided....and presumably, Ashara might not have looked to Stark.

This begs the question:   why would Ashara Dayne have taken notice of Selmy instead had she been crowned by him, or not batted an eye had Elia been crowned by Rhaegar, but been compelled to "look to Stark" once Lyanna had received the glory as QoLaB?

The answer, IMO, is in the paramour - a paramour with status beneath a wife, but not insignificant.   A paramour who might be flattered to receive recognition from another man, but also be okay with their consort giving recognition to the existing spouse...a relationship to which a paramour would be accustomed.    However, a man showing attention to a woman besides the paramour OR the wife?    A woman that a paramour doesn’t know, one that might threaten her position?   That’s a problem.

Had Rhaegar chosen Elia, much war and woe might have been avoided.   But, Rhaegar chose Lyanna Stark...and Ashara later looked to Stark, a memory that gives Barristan great cause for regret  -  no good came from staying silent about his feelings for her, for not making her aware that someone (else) loved and wanted her.

What did Ashara Dayne do?


 


Rhaegar was the winner of the Harrenhal tourney.
Rhaegar gave honors to Lyanna Stark.
Ashara Dayne, who received no crown, was dishonored at Harrenhal.
Ashara Dayne committed suicide sometime after Ned brought news to Starfall - mad with grief over her child, and the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal.
Grief, meaning over one who has died.
Rhaegar died at the Trident.

 

Re: Dany possibly being her daughter, we have this part of the passage:

Ashara was "not long at court" at Harrenhal per Barristan, and per text and SSM Ashara returned to Starfall at some point during the war, though not "nailed to the floor" there.    Did she leave King's Landing/Dragonstone voluntarily,  or was she sent away?

An excerpt from TWOIAF on the reign of Aerys II may establish precedent:

I believe this was touched upon in the fake-Dany thread that has been discussed here on the last couple of pages, but yeah.... it's the oldest story in the book:   guy falls for the hot sister of his best friend or the saucy maid who works for him.  Ashara is both.  Plus, it's not the first time in real life or even in the story that we've seen some lovestruck chump move his side piece into a close-proximity job so they can be together (I'm eyeballing you, Tyrion).     Ashara "not long at court" indeed....I wonder who brought her there?   And is it possible that she had to leave because she overstepped her bounds as a paramour, perhaps getting too deeply involved or....maybe even falling pregnant?

Again, Ashara returned to Dorne at some point after the Tourney of Harrenhal but before the end of the war.    We don't know when, but this part of Barristan's recollection:

...along with the general consensus that Ashara was still alive and residing at Starfall when Ned returned Dawn post-TOJ leads me to believe that the birth of her child either coincided with Ned's visit or happened shortly afterward...her swan dive off the Palestone could only have happened after Ned got to Starfall.    If Rhaegar was actually chilling with Ashara (and not Lyanna) in the south during the war and she became pregnant before Rhaegar left for KL, it's quite possible that Dany is this child, just age-fudged by a few months.

Ashara returned to Dorne at some point between the Tourney and the end of the Rebellion.
Rhaegar disappears, supposedly with Lyanna, and is AWOL through the first part of the war.
Per Jaime, Rhaegar "returned from the south" to take control of the royal forces.
Ashara had a stillborn daughter.
This child would have been born in the south

Daenerys has Ashara's eyes.
Dany has a strong connection with Rhaegar.

There's also Ned's coldness toward Catelyn at the mention of that name, my lady, Cersei's comment to Ned in the godswood of "was it the brother you killed, or the child you stole?", and Dany's jumbled memories along with her association with starlight that makes me think yes, she is Ashara's daughter - a bastard daughter of Rhaegar professed dead so as not to invoke the wrath of Dayne liege lord Doran Martell, but in reality sent away to play the role of a true Targaryen - Rhaegar's sister instead of his daughter.      This is getting into pure conjecture territory, though, so I won't belabor it.

    
To conclude:

Obviously, the premise of this theory is that Ashara had been involved in a cozy little affair, maybe even as a paramour, with none other than Rhaegar Targaryen.   Rhaegar is the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal, Rhaegar is the stupid prince whose death caused her to jump from her stupid tower, and I think Ashara somehow tricked the Starks /deceived them in some way - particularly Ned, perhaps taking advantage of his sense of honor -  and then betrayed them in the end.    I think that looking at the evidence comprehensively supports the idea that Ashara may have "looked to" LYANNA Stark, rather than the traditional assumption of Brandon or Ned - why, and what resulted, is still TBD.

Yup! Pretty much everything i've mentioned before too hahaha alot of the same evidence, and i agree with it all. 
Further more i've gone on to tear at the Brandon assumption as even Lady Barbary's own testament attest to Brandon sleeping with her more than once (no sick obsession for virgins), and he stopped seeing her once engaged to Cat. Meaning he was honorable. Period. Plus he died to early to father either Jon or Dany. 

Ned I've torn apart too using his accounts, Cersei's, and Edric's. Ned is telling the same bad lie as House Dayne, and didn't impregnate Wylla behind Ashara's back while married to Cat. That's their story, but it's bad, and not true. 

No. Daenerys is the Dayne Heiress. (Homophone) Sir Dayne (Anagram and nod to her brother?) Dayne Aryes??? (Rhaegar dishonored her, but Aerys raped her and got her with child? This is an alternate scenario.) 

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On 28/11/2017 at 4:57 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

and he stopped seeing her once engaged to Cat

You keep saying that but it's just an assumption. The text doesn't say he stopped seeing her once he and Cat became engaged, it just talks about their "last night together" and as I pointed out in the other thread, that just means it was the last time she saw him (and they had sex) before Brandon died - who's to say that if he had lived they wouldn't have carried on their affair, even after his marriage?

You're claiming that Barbrey knew in advance that it was their last night together, because Brandon was ending their affair. But that's not what the books say.

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"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together" sure sounds like they hooked up after he and Barbrey both knew he was engaged to Catelyn. Did they only hook up one last time after they knew of the betrothal, or did they continue hooking up during the betrothal until Brandon died? I don't think we have enough information. But we certainly seem to have enough information to say that they hooked up at least once after Brandon was a man betrothed.

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2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

You keep saying that but it's just an assumption. The text doesn't say he stopped seeing her once he and Cat became engaged, it just talks about their "last night together" and as I pointed out in the other thread, that just means it was the last time she saw him (and they had sex) before Brandon died - who's to say that if he had lived they wouldn't have carried on their affair, even after his marriage?

You're claiming that Barbrey knew in advance that it was their last night together, because Brandon was ending their affair. But that's not what the books say.

Maybe an opinion of mine, maybe :) But it's the stance im taking haha and no, she didn't know in advance, she found out on their last day. As Bael's quote shows.

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Any theory that has Daenerys as anything but a Targaryen daughter of Aerys and Rhaella is frankly delusional.

Amen.

I really like the idea that Hodor fathered all children of Catelyn Tully by the way.

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