Why Daenerys Dayne may not be a ridiculous idea.

[Scorpion92]

Ok, Daenerys' nickname is Stormborn, right? Tell me one other character that actually remembers this "worst storm in the living memory"?

Stannis never mentions this storm whenever his failed attempt to catch Targaryens occured. In fact, I don't remember a single character mentioning this storm. Can someone help me here with quotes?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Ok, Daenerys' nickname is Stormborn, right? Tell me one other character that actually remembers this "worst storm in the living memory"?

Stannis never mentions this storm whenever his failed attempt to catch Targaryens occured. In fact, I don't remember a single character mentioning this storm. Can someone help me here with quotes?

Correct me if I am wrong but we know that Dany was born during the storm but we are not sure if Stannis attacked them during the storm or short after the storm.

[Scorpion92]

38 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Correct me if I am wrong but we know that Dany was born during the storm but we are not sure if Stannis attacked them during the storm or short after the storm.

I would assume that since Robert becamr king in King's Landing and Storm's End was relieved from the siege, it probably took several months for Stannis to build a fleet and take Dragonstone per Robert's orders.

That still does not explain why there is no mention of this storm by anyone else besides Dany who was an infant at the time and will not remember a thing about it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I would assume that since Robert becamr king in King's Landing and Storm's End was relieved from the siege, it probably took several months for Stannis to build a fleet and take Dragonstone per Robert's orders.

That still does not explain why there is no mention of this storm by anyone else besides Dany who was an infant at the time and will not remember a thing about it.

Since Dany knew it someone told her, since no one else was around the area she was and since there were much more important things going on in Westeros than a storm it makes sense why people don’t comment about something insignificant that happened ages ago.

[SFDanny]

17 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Ok, Daenerys' nickname is Stormborn, right? Tell me one other character that actually remembers this "worst storm in the living memory"?

Stannis never mentions this storm whenever his failed attempt to catch Targaryens occured. In fact, I don't remember a single character mentioning this storm. Can someone help me here with quotes?

They teach the title in the Citadel. So, one would expect they would know if the title is false or not.

Quote

"Not at all," said Alleras. "The Beggar King had a sister."

"I thought her head was smashed against a wall," said Roone.

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men. We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall. The one they called Daenerys."

"The Stormborn. I recall her now." (A Feast for Crows 6) bold emphasis added

The timing of her birth, the location of her birth, and the name given to her because of the storm during her birth, are all confirmed by Citadel teaching.

It would be interesting to know just who the maester of Dragonstone was at the time. We would expect that, not only would he be in attendance of Daenerys's birth, and Rhaella's death, but his report of the events would form the basis for Citadel teaching.

I'd like to know, if a storm did not destroy the Targaryen Fleet, just what do you think happened to it, and why did it not fight the rebel fleet on arrival?

[Nevets]

On 12/17/2016 at 0:25 PM, khal drogon said:

But the dragons prove she is a Targaryen

          But does it really? Can only a Valyrian ride a dragon? Is it said so by Martin? The only irrefutable proof that she is a Targaryen is not really a solid one. If the Daynes and the Valyrians had a common ancestor then the Daynes could also have inherited dragon riding traits. Or maybe Dany's bond with her dragons formed because of other ways that could enable a non-Valyrian to bond with a dragon like how the dragonbinder works. There are also these cryptic words from Quaithe "Remember who you are. The dragons know it." But Daenerys doesn't have to remember she is a Targaryen which she already knows. I think these words have more to it than putting Dany in a war path. 

I think the fact that Daenerys has three dragon companions (the sigil of her house) is about as clear a signal that she is a Targaryen as the fact that all of the Starks (including Jon) have a direwolf companion (sigil of their house) indicates that they are Starks.  While I am game for theories suggesting Daenerys isn't who she thinks she is, any theory has to accept that at least one parent is a Tragaryen.

[Sigella]

19 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And several other people, most likely. Royal births were not private affairs.

I think not. Remember Jaime had to threaten the maester and midwives to be admitted to Cerise's birth.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I think not. Remember Jaime had to threaten the maester and midwives to be admitted to Cerise's birth.

Jaime was the LC of King's Guard not Cersei's last living relative or her last supporter who would had maybe even have to protect her.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

29 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I think not. Remember Jaime had to threaten the maester and midwives to be admitted to Cerise's birth.

Actually, I don't remember. When? Which birth?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, I don't remember. When? Which birth?

Cersei said that Jaime was present at least during Joff's birth.

[Greywater-Watch]

22 hours ago, Sigella said:

Are you proposing that Rhaella gave birth with her son and castellan in the same room?

Dragonstone is an island, it was isolated (not a lot of traffic) from the rest of the realm during the time Rhaella gave birth to her daughter. I find it hard to believe that an exchange of babys would have gone unnoticed. Other posters have correctly pointed out, that the birth of a highborn child was not really a private affair. And yes: I think there have been wittnesses, I only hinted at two of them. I feel you stick so hard to your theory that you accept very high improbabilites to make it survive.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

I think not. Remember Jaime had to threaten the maester and midwives to be admitted to Cerise's birth.

Do you mean when Cersei is telling Sansa about Joffrey's birth? Here's the passage:

[After Cersei explains that Robert would go hunting whenever a birth was imminent] "Not that I wanted him to stay, mind you. I had Grand Maester Pycelle and an army of midwives, and I had my brother. When they told Jaime he was not allowed in the birthing room, he smiled and asked which of them proposed to keep him out."

(ACOK, Sansa IV)

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Do you mean when Cersei is telling Sansa about Joffrey's birth? Here's the passage:

[After Cersei explains that Robert would go hunting whenever a birth was imminent] "Not that I wanted him to stay, mind you. I had Grand Maester Pycelle and an army of midwives, and I had my brother. When they told Jaime he was not allowed in the birthing room, he smiled and asked which of them proposed to keep him out."

(ACOK, Sansa IV)

Thats the one. It says something of the privacy royal births I think.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

18 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Thats the one. It says something of the privacy royal births I think.

"An army of midwives"?

[SFDanny]

48 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Thats the one. It says something of the privacy royal births I think.

It does. Particularly the phrase "army of midwives." Whether all men or boys. other than the maester, are prevented from being in the birthing room by custom is not clear. It looks like Robert being there would not be a violation of custom, but a brother might be. Jaime just makes his own rules. I would doubt Viserys is allowed in the room by reasons of age, if not gender. Of course, Viserys has been crowned by this time and, like Jaime, had his own idea of what should happen. That does not make it a private affair. There would have been many attendants to a royal birth. Many witnesses, some of whom I've no doubt were questioned  closely by Stannis upon his arrival.

Of interest, is the speculation of Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy at Radio Westeros and this site. They have speculated that the identity of the Dragonstone maester might be none other than Marwyn the Mage. It is something worth considering given Rhaegar's and Marwyn's mutual interest in magic, dragons, and prophecy. I've always thought him a likely candidate for a maester at the Tower of Joy. However, both are pure speculation.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Thats the one. It says something of the privacy royal births I think.

I also don't see Jaime's comment as particularly threatening. More like defiance. Like, "Yeah? You and what army?" (which can be said accompanied by a smile or even a chuckle without losing any of its spunk).

[Nevets]

There was either an actual baby born at Dragonstone, or a supposed baby born at Dragonstone.  Either way. someone is going to have to produce a newborn baby,  It makes no sense to bring a baby from Dorne as a substitute.  "Let's send this innocent child to Dragonstone, so that when the castle falls, and it will, she can be captured by Stannis, and turned over to Robert, who will probably have her killed".  Makes perfect sense.  

As for substituting a dead child, why bother.  She is the younger one, and a girl to boot.  If she dies, have a funeral, sniffle a bit, and move on.  You don't need her for anything at that point.  Her only possible necessary use is as part of a brother-sister marriage, and there is no point to that if she isn't real.  And Viserys is going to know the difference.  He is cruel, not stupid.  Plus, if she dies, it saves him the trouble of lugging around a toddler and small child, which would likely be a big nuisance.

In this case, the obvious answer (that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys) is the correct one simply because the alternatives make no sense at all.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

"An army of midwives"?

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

It does. Particularly the phrase "army of midwives." Whether all men or boys. other than the maester, are prevented from being in the birthing room by custom is not clear. It looks like Robert being there would not be a violation of custom, but a brother might be. Jaime just makes his own rules. I would doubt Viserys is allowed in the room by reasons of age, if not gender. Of course, Viserys has been crowned by this time and, like Jaime, had his own idea of what should happen. That does not make it a private affair. There would have been many attendants to a royal birth. Many witnesses, some of whom I've no doubt were questioned  closely by Stannis upon his arrival.

Of interest, is the speculation of Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy at Radio Westeros and this site. They have speculated that the identity of the Dragonstone maester might be none other than Marwyn the Mage. It is something worth considering given Rhaegar's and Marwyn's mutual interest in magic, dragons, and prophecy. I've always thought him a likely candidate for a maester at the Tower of Joy. However, both are pure speculation.

I don't think the emphasis should lay in "army" but "midwives".

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

There was either an actual baby born at Dragonstone, or a supposed baby born at Dragonstone.  Either way. someone is going to have to produce a newborn baby,  It makes no sense to bring a baby from Dorne as a substitute.  "Let's send this innocent child to Dragonstone, so that when the castle falls, and it will, she can be captured by Stannis, and turned over to Robert, who will probably have her killed".  Makes perfect sense.  

As for substituting a dead child, why bother.  She is the younger one, and a girl to boot.  If she dies, have a funeral, sniffle a bit, and move on.  You don't need her for anything at that point.  Her only possible necessary use is as part of a brother-sister marriage, and there is no point to that if she isn't real.  And Viserys is going to know the difference.  He is cruel, not stupid.  Plus, if she dies, it saves him the trouble of lugging around a toddler and small child, which would likely be a big nuisance.

In this case, the obvious answer (that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys) is the correct one simply because the alternatives make no sense at all.

So it doesn't bug you that Barristan finds Dany's eyes hauntingly like Asharas? Or the rumor of her stillborn daughter and suicide? 

 

It smells fishy to me. Sorry for pissing you guys off by voicing it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

31 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Sorry for pissing you guys off by voicing it.

Now, now. There's no need to be snide. I can't speak for the others, but I'm not pissed off - just seeing it differently than you. Anyone participating in a public discussion board ought to be prepared for people to disagree and say so.

[SFDanny]

14 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I don't think the emphasis should lay in "army" but "midwives".

I take by that you are trying to point to a sexual segregation of those who attend the birth? I have no problem with that other than a maester attending and possibly the father. We know male maesters (the only kind, officially anyways) attend births. Pycelle and Luwin are both said to have been in attendance at Cersei and Catelyn's children's births respectively. That's part of their job. It also appears by Cersei's remarks that Robert could have attended if he wanted. Whether that's because of his role as father or king isn't quite clear. And we know Jaime makes his attendance possible by threats of force.

My point wasn't against custom stopping most men from attending - I don't think we have any proof of that - but that by speaking of an "army" attending her, Cersei tells us there are many witnesses to a royal birth. I'd suggest she is using "midwives" as general term to mean a lot of women who are helping the birth. That likely means actual trained midwives, a wet-nurse or two for after the birth, and various servants for general running and getting whatever is needed. All under the direction of a maester, who may or may not know what the hell he is doing. For births outside nobility and outside a castle, it probably means no maester, and quite a bit fewer women, but it still is often a cooperative effort to help.

The point being witnesses to a birth, particularly a royal birth like Dany's is a small number of people. In addition there are all the people who had to deal with a newborn child for the period from the birth to the escape from Dragonstone. Add to this all the people who would have dealt with Rhaella as she died from complications from the birth and dealt with the funeral of a queen after here death. Lots of folks. All telling the same story.

39 minutes ago, Sigella said:

So it doesn't bug you that Barristan finds Dany's eyes hauntingly like Asharas? Or the rumor of her stillborn daughter and suicide? 

No, it doesn't bug me that both Dany's eyes, the eyes of a Targaryen princess, and those of Ashara Dayne are similar. Martin has made it clear for a very long time that the "purple" eye coloring is not exclusive to the Daynes or the Targaryens. I am very intrigued by both the still born daughter and the "suicide." The suicide mostly because Martin tells us no body was ever found. The stillborn daughter because it likely is a child from the scandal at Harrenhall and that opens up questions about who would be the child's father. I just come to a very different conclusion than you do. I don't see a connection between Ashara's stillborn daughter, probably born in the early stages of the rebellion, and Dany who is born well over a year, possibly two years later.

48 minutes ago, Sigella said:

It smells fishy to me. Sorry for pissing you guys off by voicing it.

Don't mistake skepticism or disbelief for being pissed off. There is lots of evidence to say this theory is wrong. Saying so, doesn't mean people are mad at you for thinking differently.