Macgregor of the North Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: George has told us that the Others don't have a culture This doesnt mean that the singers created them though really does it? 15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: we also know that those creatures we know as the Others are supposed to be Craster's sons which, if true, means that the Others are indeed created out of male human children. I know the Wildling wife of Craster says the sons the sons!! But we really dont know yet that there is a nursery in the far north with baby Others waiting to grow to manhood and stalk the realm. Its possible its more for the blood, blood seems to be important to every magic in the series, why not the icy one too?. I mean i could be wrong but maybe the wife just thinks that since the sons are taken they must actually be the Others who return each time? But wouldnt that mean that a baby Other needs to go through all his youth until he grows up big enough to stalk south? Unless you are implying that as soon as the baby is "turned" he automatically turns big like a full grown Other?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: We also have to keep in mind that it is very likely the Long Night was actually caused by the Others. We know they bring cold (and perhaps even darkness) with them since the very Prologue of the series. In what sense do you mean this though? If the Others can just bring a Long night with them why havent they done so before? And the Others hide when its day, they stay in the shadows etc, they do not like the light of day. If they had any control over the weather like you say wouldnt they do something to rectify this?. What i think is the case is that the Others make bad weather very very very bad. But in order to move south in numbers they need it to be a very very long winter so that when they move south in numbers, their very presence may actually keep the weather terrible and stable enough for them to survive there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I don't like speculating this far out of the plot, but a handful of ideas I had for some time in a nutshell: I don't think the babies are grown into Others, but fed to northern weirwood trees who then produce magical, almost transparent beings we see as the Others, which are living trees fueled by human blood (that is kinda their water, being trees and all). They are not fundamentally evil... Just different. Why Craster's babies? Either he has some special blood or he just cut a deal with them somehow and revers them as gods. If the Others are weirwood 'spirits', it's no surprising some wildlings would look them as godly. When Bran mindptravels north and see the impaled children of the forest. Are they really impaled and dead? Bloodraven looks dead but he still talks and actively takes part in the plot. Maybe he saw the guys who actually set things in motion in the Land of Always Winter for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 21, 2016 Author Share Posted December 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said: I don't like speculating this far out of the plot, but a handful of ideas I had for some time in a nutshell: I don't think the babies are grown into Others, but fed to northern weirwood trees who then produce magical, almost transparent beings we see as the Others, which are living trees fueled by human blood (that is kinda their water, being trees and all). They are not fundamentally evil... Just different. Why Craster's babies? Either he has some special blood or he just cut a deal with them somehow and revers them as gods. If the Others are weirwood 'spirits', it's no surprising some wildlings would look them as godly. When Bran mindptravels north and see the impaled children of the forest. Are they really impaled and dead? Bloodraven looks dead but he still talks and actively takes part in the plot. Maybe he saw the guys who actually set things in motion in the Land of Always Winter for some reason. I used to think they actually were the sons, like the babies became Others but I'm in agreement with you in that it's the blood that is used to fuel whatever higher power is at work and so allows the generation of more of these Icy beings. When you mention them as transparent beings if I'm not mistaken isn't that due to their armour? It ripples and shifts as it moves and seems to make the Other look like it's surroundings. This is where I think the trees connection comes from, as it can look like it is part of the forest due to its armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If you go back and look at what happens to Ser Puddles when Sam stabs him with the obisidan, it appears that Martin may be teasing that the White Walkers are made out of frozen air. The white icy exterior/armor and skeleton which would comprise most of the creation being frozen nitrogen, and the pale liquid "blood" of the creature being the appearance of liquid oxygen. And perhaps the sword is made of frozen co2 which would also explain the squealing or screaming noise that is made when it comes in contact with a long sword. If you touch metal to frozen co2 (or dry ice) the same thing happens. They are obviously made to resemble knights and also the nursery tale legends of the White Walkers of the past. So in other words, frozen air made to resemble folklore of the north, in other words words made by wind. As to how they are made, my guess is we have a number of different magic being used, and it appears that most magic in GRRM's world is fueled by human sacrifice. So perhaps we have Craster's sons being the sacrifice to fuel the magic which leads to their creation. Also there are a number of parallel imagery between the White Walkers and the shadow assassins that Melisandre brings about, so I think we have to look in the direction of a shadowbinder as well. (Hmm, didn't Mance spend some time with a shadowbinder, who mended his cloak?). As for the mechanism, a lot of magic of the north ties in with Weirwoods and human sacrifices to Weirwoods. We have Bran's vision of the sacrifice in front of the Weirwood tree at Winterfell, and Davos tells of tales of human entrails being hung on Weirwood trees. In Whitetree, the Weirwood has an open maw where the Rangers find human bones amidst ash. My guess is that the Weirwoods are being used to help create this unique moving, living ice sculpture. So perhaps we should look to a conspiracy of beings: the COTF along with human accomplices who are aeromancers, and shadowbinders, and perhaps a conspiracy with the weirwoods themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: In what sense do you mean this though? If the Others can just bring a Long night with them why havent they done so before? And the Others hide when its day, they stay in the shadows etc, they do not like the light of day. If they had any control over the weather like you say wouldnt they do something to rectify this?. What i think is the case is that the Others make bad weather very very very bad. But in order to move south in numbers they need it to be a very very long winter so that when they move south in numbers, their very presence may actually keep the weather terrible and stable enough for them to survive there. I think you're on to something here. Martin says something somewhere that if the Others had won the last time, the world would be very cold and very dark. I'd imagine so. I don't think they'd like a world where they'd melt faster than Frosty the Snowman. Is it possible that, instead of creating the Long Night, they are the result of it? As I recall, Old Nan says that "in that darkness, the Others came for the first time." That seems to imply that they're not the cause of it at all, but as you say make the conditions worse--but those conditions have to exist first before they can modify them. So, another Long Night was already on its way in when the Others woke. Edit: Can someone direct me to any information on the Neverborn? This is the first I recall hearing that term and I've been reading these books for 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said: I used to think they actually were the sons, like the babies became Others but I'm in agreement with you in that it's the blood that is used to fuel whatever higher power is at work and so allows the generation of more of these Icy beings. When you mention them as transparent beings if I'm not mistaken isn't that due to their armour? It ripples and shifts as it moves and seems to make the Other look like it's surroundings. This is where I think the trees connection comes from, as it can look like it is part of the forest due to its armour. I just thought of Predator and his heat sensing vision. Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rise Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: Edit: Can someone direct me to any information on the Neverborn? This is the first I recall hearing that term and I've been reading these books for 20 years. The term is mentioned in GRRM letter to his Publisher, you can find it at the begining of most heresy threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 35 minutes ago, Rise said: The term is mentioned in GRRM letter to his Publisher, you can find it at the begining of most heresy threads. Great, thanks! Very Lovecraftian, isn't it? The way Martin describes it, it would seem that the Others are first in the hierarchy and raise not just the wights but the neverborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: This doesnt mean that the singers created them though really does it? It doesn't confirm that, no, but it greatly lowers the probability that the Others are a species/race/people of their because if they were we would say/assume they also have a culture of their own. And it makes it very likely that they are artificial beings created by some other force. Now, if the Children weren't involved then the force behind the Others would most likely have to be another as of yet completely unknown (non-)human species or faction living in the far north. And that's not very likely in light of the fact that it is plausible to assume that George would actually build up and hint at such an unknown species if he wanted to reveal its existence in the next book. We heard a lot about the Children of the Forest, the dragons, etc. before we actually met them. 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I know the Wildling wife of Craster says the sons the sons!! But we really dont know yet that there is a nursery in the far north with baby Others waiting to grow to manhood and stalk the realm. Its possible its more for the blood, blood seems to be important to every magic in the series, why not the icy one too?. I mean i could be wrong but maybe the wife just thinks that since the sons are taken they must actually be the Others who return each time? But wouldnt that mean that a baby Other needs to go through all his youth until he grows up big enough to stalk south? Unless you are implying that as soon as the baby is "turned" he automatically turns big like a full grown Other?. I'm not saying I completely understand this whole thing. However, we have hints that male human children might be turned into Others. How this works (if it is done) is completely unclear. I find it odd, though, that you try to dismiss this idea rather easily when the source is actually a person who might have interacted and talked to the Others. Since Craster worshiped the Others the idea that the Others actually paid his keep a visit isn't far-fetched at all. And some of his older wives might actually have spoken to the sons they gave birth to. Granted, they could be mistaken. But one assumes that the wives would have known if Craster only sacrificed his sons on some kind of altar dedicated to the Others. Then they would just be dead. The fact that the women believe they become Others suggests they know that Craster (and perhaps even they themselves, on his orders) delivered living children into the hands of the Others. Sure, the Others could then themselves sacrifice or kill those children. But that's not what Craster's wives believe they do. I find the idea of a nursery for 'young Others' also weird but since the Lands of Always Winter are pretty vast and the Heart of Winter might actually be a place there is certainly a chance that this is done. A reason why it took so long for the Others to recover and attack humanity again might be that (nearly) all the Others were destroyed during the War for the Dawn, and whoever/whatever remained behind in the Heart of Winter took a great long time to get his/her/their hands on living male infants. If the crusade of the Others during the Long Night was very successful in reducing the population of the First Men in Westeros then there is a pretty good chance that only very few people lived in the lands north of the Wall after the war was over. It is of course also possible that the (good faction of the) Children of the Forest were still much more powerful back then, forcing the Others (or their masters) to accept a truce for the time being. A truce that was only broken quite recently when the Others/their masters decided that the Children were no longer strong enough to stop them. That could also explain why the Wall was built - because the Children knew even back then that they wouldn't be around forever and one day the Others would inevitably return and the First Men could then only hope to live if they could prevent the Others from entering their territory. We should also not confuse the way the Others are portrayed in the thing that should not be named and in the books. In the books the Other seems to cook and melt when Sam stabs him with the obsidian dagger, he does not simply break apart. That suggests that it is the innate fire magic in 'dragon glass' that kills the Others. If you read the section in ASoS then the Others's fingers are smoking when he touches the dagger, his blood is boiling, and he himself and his armor are melting. 3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: In what sense do you mean this though? If the Others can just bring a Long night with them why havent they done so before? And the Others hide when its day, they stay in the shadows etc, they do not like the light of day. The idea is that whoever first created the Others worked a very powerful and devastating/blasphemous spell. A spell that destroyed the balance of the world. Prior to that spell there were normal seasons as we know they them, thereafter things were out of balance and weird. It is most likely the existence of magical fire creatures like the dragons (and the refinement and rise of fire magics during the long Valyrian age) that inadvertently created a counter balance to the ice magic of the Others. While there were dragons and Others the weirdo seasons were more or less in balance after the Long Night (and there is also the very likely possibility that (non-Valyrian) dragons and dragonriders played a role in defeating the Others during the Long Night). But there is talk (in THK) that summers grow shorter and winters longer since the last Targaryen dragon died in 153 AC. Perhaps the death of the dragons caused the Others to finally make their move now. While Valyria was still in power and the Targaryens ruled Westeros with dozens of dragons their campaign had no great chance of success. 3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: If they had any control over the weather like you say wouldnt they do something to rectify this?. The idea is that the Others can bring cold and darkness with them if they so choose. Perhaps that is no easy task, though. It could be that they have to maintain a very powerful spell to do this, and it is quite clear that they need cold and darkness to operate. There is a pretty strong sign that such spells wouldn't have worked in the presence of dragons or might have been much more difficult while they were around. 3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: What i think is the case is that the Others make bad weather very very very bad. But in order to move south in numbers they need it to be a very very long winter so that when they move south in numbers, their very presence may actually keep the weather terrible and stable enough for them to survive there. Well, that wouldn't really answer why the seasons are freakish as they are. George said that we'll get an explanation for that. My idea is that the creation of the first Other(s) threw things out of balance with the creators of the Others originally planning to eradicate all human life in Westeros (or the world) using ice magic/creating an eternal winter. Only the fact that they were eventually defeated/driven back restored some sort of balance but the continuing presence of the Others up north prevented things from returning back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrav Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I The use of obsidian to create an Other from a person makes some sense: when Sam stabbed the one, the dagger seemed to release its "frozen" heat and absorb the cold of the Other. Maybe it works the opposite way when applied to a warm-blooded life form, releasing its frozen aspect and absorbing the warmth (hmmm that sounds familiar). I've also had a hunch that the Wall itself is actually the Great Other, or is at least anatomically similar to the Others. The bones of the Others resemble weirwood, while the Wall has a sentient weirwood growing under/into it. And that weirwood drips water instead of red sap/blood, which is congruous with the idea of ice magic. I'm still not sure what that means with regard to the Others' origin, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point if it turned out that the Others were somehow thralls of the Wall and subject to its will. weiroods of blood magic vs weirwoods of water magic. Elemental magic vs human magic. I feel like the weirwoods are at the center of this mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hidden Dragon Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 GRRM wrote... "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous" Dragons have been described as fire made flesh, perhaps the Others are Ice made flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Popping in again to mention that it's unlikely the Others were created to battle Andals. According to the rough timeline we have the First Men and CotF made a pact about 10,000 B.A. (Before Aegon). The Long Night and the Others were about 8,000 B.A. The Andals showed up around 6,000 B.A. Even if it's not really thousands of years but closer to something like hundreds, the Andals don't show up close enough to the Others having made their appearance for that to have been the most likely reason to create an ice force. Granted, the CotF probably have some ability to see in the future like we see with characters like Jojen, but greensight doesn't seem to necessarily be literal so I'm wondering what they could have seen coming that would have led them to think they needed ice soldiers. Maybe they saw the Doom of Valyria in advance, of the Targaryen takeover, and thought it would be sooner than it actually was? The Andals brought steel but steel shouldn't necessarily inspire anyone to need ice zombies. 4 hours ago, cgrav said: I The use of obsidian to create an Other from a person makes some sense: when Sam stabbed the one, the dagger seemed to release its "frozen" heat and absorb the cold of the Other. Maybe it works the opposite way when applied to a warm-blooded life form, releasing its frozen aspect and absorbing the warmth (hmmm that sounds familiar). I've also had a hunch that the Wall itself is actually the Great Other, or is at least anatomically similar to the Others. The bones of the Others resemble weirwood, while the Wall has a sentient weirwood growing under/into it. And that weirwood drips water instead of red sap/blood, which is congruous with the idea of ice magic. I'm still not sure what that means with regard to the Others' origin, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point if it turned out that the Others were somehow thralls of the Wall and subject to its will. weiroods of blood magic vs weirwoods of water magic. Elemental magic vs human magic. I feel like the weirwoods are at the center of this mystery. I'm no chemist or other kind of scientist but it seems to me it would have to be far more complicated than that to literally change the molecular structure of the body. Of course we're dealing with magic, so who knows what all would be involved. Going back to what GRRM said about the spell holding Puddles together, when said spell was broken basically he melted. That works fine with a being that's comprised entirely of water, cold air, and magic, but not so well with the human body that's only two-thirds water. If the Wall had existed prior to the Others that would work better. Or if the Wall were actually sentient. At the moment we've only got information that says the Wall was built to keep men safe from the Others after they were identified as a threat. We know it's warded with magic to keep the undead from crossing on their own, and it's no doubt also warded against the Others. There's really no reason for there to be anything in the text about how long the Wall will stand (and by default under what circumstances it will fall) unless it protects people from the Others. I agree that weirwoods are going to be hugely important. Though I'd be kind of disappointed if the Others just turned out to be badass versions of the Lorax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 14 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: I think you're on to something here. Martin says something somewhere that if the Others had won the last time, the world would be very cold and very dark. I'd imagine so. I don't think they'd like a world where they'd melt faster than Frosty the Snowman. Is it possible that, instead of creating the Long Night, they are the result of it? As I recall, Old Nan says that "in that darkness, the Others came for the first time." That seems to imply that they're not the cause of it at all, but as you say make the conditions worse--but those conditions have to exist first before they can modify them. So, another Long Night was already on its way in when the Others woke. Edit: Can someone direct me to any information on the Neverborn? This is the first I recall hearing that term and I've been reading these books for 20 years. We are on the same page with this line of thought Crazy Cat As to the Neverborn and their being three tiers to the hierarchy of the Others group I'm not sure if GRRM stuck with that idea. In the AGOT Prologue which I admit is from Wills POV, there are plenty parts of it where GRRM is the narrator and simply describing the scene. Like when he says "the Other slid forward on silent feet". That is GRRM calling that being an Other right there in the first pages of the story, not Will Gared or Waymar. So When Waymar met the Others I believe we did too, and I'm not so sure there are Wights, White Walkers and "Others" that we haven't seen yet as we have already saw the Others, and they are the White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 14 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: I just thought of Predator and his heat sensing vision. Haha Awesome image in my head now. Thanks for that. Always loved Predator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: It doesn't confirm that, no, but it greatly lowers the probability that the Others are a species/race/people of their because if they were we would say/assume they also have a culture of their own. Why does it greatly lower the probability that the Others are a species of their own? GRRMs comment was made yes but he could mean simply that they do not have homes and markets where they buy food etc, or they dont gather round to listen to the local Other lute player. But we do know that they can move in organised rank, designate a leader who they will follow, talk a language among each other, they can mock, laugh and they understand things quite well it seems. They are intelligent enough so while they may not have a "culture" they can still be their own species with objectives, purpose, rank, and a damn good sense of humour. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: And it makes it very likely that they are artificial beings created by some other force. Now, if the Children weren't involved then the force behind the Others would most likely have to be another as of yet completely unknown (non-)human species or faction living in the far north. And that's not very likely in light of the fact that it is plausible to assume that George would actually build up and hint at such an unknown species if he wanted to reveal its existence in the next book. We heard a lot about the Children of the Forest, the dragons, etc. before we actually met them. Yet how Dragons were created, or how the species of the Cotf were created, or how the giants were created or how Melisandre came to be how she is, is actually never explained to us. All those things are vague. We have heard of the Others from the lands of always winter plenty and their higher power "the Great Other", and whether the Great Other exists or no we are given enough to assume that there was something going on in the far North in regards to the creation of or evolution of these Sidhe looking Inhuman Ice beings. If you believe the Cotf created the Others do you think they created them in the lands of always winter, or in a more southern location? How do you see this creation going down and where?. Details if you could. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I find it odd, though, that you try to dismiss this idea rather easily when the source is actually a person who might have interacted and talked to the Others. I know the source is a Wildling woman and they know things and all that but are you honestly implying that this woman "talked" to the Others in their language that sound like the cracking of Ice? As in she has interacted with the Others enough in this language to surmise that her sons, nephews, emmm whatever they would be, are actually touched by some higher Other in the far North and this gives them blue eyes and turns them into an Other baby which has to grow to adulthood in the far North, getting past all that troublesome Other teenage years and all that befor ethey can return to Crasters keep to look for his brothers. Im not so sure if im honest, i think with the massive undeniable emphasis put on blood in this story that it is more likely that these lads are taken and their blood is used and the power from it helps generate more Others. Wouldnt you agree? Blood is a big deal in this story isnt it. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Since Craster worshiped the Others the idea that the Others actually paid his keep a visit isn't far-fetched at all. And some of his older wives might actually have spoken to the sons they gave birth to. Come on man, sometimes LV i honestly think you troll sometimes with the stuff you come out with. Can we return to being serious again. Im all for a laugh and that but this???. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Sure, the Others could then themselves sacrifice or kill those children. But that's not what Craster's wives believe they do. Maybe they cant entertain the idea that their boys were killed and sacrificed as it hurts them and have to believe they return in some icy state. I mean they arent too far off the mark, if the blood of the sons generates more Others then effectively they "are" the sons arent they? But i highly doubt they were Other babies raised in the far north, why doesnt that sound like a culture to you LV??. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I find the idea of a nursery for 'young Others' also weird but since the Lands of Always Winter are pretty vast and the Heart of Winter might actually be a place there is certainly a chance that this is done. Sounds like culture again doesnt it. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: A reason why it took so long for the Others to recover and attack humanity again might be that (nearly) all the Others were destroyed during the War for the Dawn, and whoever/whatever remained behind in the Heart of Winter took a great long time to get his/her/their hands on living male infants. Yes agree!. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: We should also not confuse the way the Others are portrayed in the thing that should not be named and in the books. In the books the Other seems to cook and melt when Sam stabs him with the obsidian dagger, he does not simply break apart. That suggests that it is the innate fire magic in 'dragon glass' that kills the Others. If you read the section in ASoS then the Others's fingers are smoking when he touches the dagger, his blood is boiling, and he himself and his armor are melting. I never confuse the two, ever. And im well aware of what happened to the Other when Sam stabbed it. What are you getting at, where does this even so much as hint at they were created by the Cotf?. All it shows is that they are some kind of magical Ice being and the fire element of the Obsidian was extremely destructive to its health. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The idea is that whoever first created the Others worked a very powerful and devastating/blasphemous spell. A spell that destroyed the balance of the world. Prior to that spell there were normal seasons as we know they them, thereafter things were out of balance and weird. Im with you in that the event that set in motion the creation of The Others set the Long night off and messed up the seasons but not that it was the Cotf who travelled all the way up to the far north to turn a man into the first Other. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: It is most likely the existence of magical fire creatures like the dragons (and the refinement and rise of fire magics during the long Valyrian age) that inadvertently created a counter balance to the ice magic of the Others. While there were dragons and Others the weirdo seasons were more or less in balance after the Long Night (and there is also the very likely possibility that (non-Valyrian) dragons and dragonriders played a role in defeating the Others during the Long Night). But there is talk (in THK) that summers grow shorter and winters longer since the last Targaryen dragon died in 153 AC. Perhaps the death of the dragons caused the Others to finally make their move now. While Valyria was still in power and the Targaryens ruled Westeros with dozens of dragons their campaign had no great chance of success. That is all highly speculative. Could you please provide evidence that the seasons behaved that way after the death of the last dragon. What has motivated the Others to move now i believe is something to do with the longest winter approaching. Yes i believe they are intelligent enough to have some kind of prophetic knowledge of long seasons and possibly even a certain prophesied figure appearing also. I do believe the Others think like this. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The idea is that the Others can bring cold and darkness with them if they so choose. Perhaps that is no easy task, though. It could be that they have to maintain a very powerful spell to do this, and it is quite clear that they need cold and darkness to operate. There is a pretty strong sign that such spells wouldn't have worked in the presence of dragons or might have been much more difficult while they were around. That is not the idea. Its not decided that they can bring the season of Winter with them but i do believe that they need winter conditions to thrive and if the winter condition is long enough and enough of them move to a certain location, they may have the power to prolong that condition and make it even colder. But i do NOT believe they brought the long night and can do so at will, they need the winter conditions to already be there. This is evident in the fact that they hide during the day in the shadows from the light. 13 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Well, that wouldn't really answer why the seasons are freakish as they are. George said that we'll get an explanation for that. My idea is that the creation of the first Other(s) threw things out of balance with the creators of the Others originally planning to eradicate all human life in Westeros (or the world) using ice magic/creating an eternal winter. Only the fact that they were eventually defeated/driven back restored some sort of balance but the continuing presence of the Others up north prevented things from returning back to normal. No it doesnt answer why the seasons are messed up. They are messed and thats just the way it is. I agree that the creation of the Others and the onset of the long night and the messing up of the seasons is all entwined together but not the way you and many others think, which i think has been heavily influenced by the "adaption", for want of a better word. If you would could you give me a run down of your idea on how the cotf created the Others? Where, with what type of man, what kind of ritual, what type of magic was used?. Details please. I want to see how it differs from the "adaption". I have an idea that ties in with LmL's theory of the magical second moon exploding and sending the pieces of black rock crashing to earth. I think this led to the cause of the Others, the Long Night, and the messed up seasons. And id the Cotf have any connection to the Others, like GRRM said they "possibly" will, it may be that they seeked their help to fight men, then regretted it and helped men. And yes, i believe the Cotf can talk to the Others in their Ice cracking language since they actually sing the song of earth, unlike some Wildling wife who at best speaks the Old Tongue. But not the true tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 10 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said: GRRM wrote... "The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous" Dragons have been described as fire made flesh, perhaps the Others are Ice made flesh. Yup, its quite a description that one and to me does not sound like something that came from a man being changed. I think that is an easy route that the mummers adaption may have used because the actual origins need a more detailed telling and we know they sidestep that sort of thing to make things run quicker and smoother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 16 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: I just thought of Predator and his heat sensing vision. Haha Oooh I can finally admit freely and shamelessly that I thought about predators in the very first read of the prologue of AGoT. I regret nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Out of curiosity, and I genuinely am very curious about this. Can anyone reading this who believes the singers, the Cotf, created the Others could you please lay out your best argument for it using only the books and words of GRRM himself. Im talking hints, nods, clues, the whole lot, taken from the books and ssm's that has taken people to the conclusion that the singers created this beings of Ice that are Inhuman, like the Sidhe, but made of Ice. I really need convincing of this as I'm convinced the origins of the Others is going to be different than what a certain thing has led people to believe. Please feel free to convince me of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/ Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be? Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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