Sorry, but I just had to pose these questions on the "creation" of the Others.

[Macgregor of the North]

If the Children of the forest, those who sing the song of earth, created the Others and "the spell that holds Ser puddles together" (as per GRRMS quote) is their doing in relation to their creation of them. As in they created these beings of Ice with spells that hold them together, then wouldn't the Cotf just be able to break their spells?. 

Isn't it just as likely some higher Icy power from the far North created them and set them with spells, or their creation was due to some magical event and these beings of Ice evolved from it and it is something magical that holds their life force together?.

Do the Cotf really have to have created them to fight men? Where in the books is it ever hinted that this is the case?. Isn't it just as likely that because the singers speak an ancient true tongue that sings the song of earth, they spoke with the Others in their cracking Ice sounding language to enlist their help?.

You know like a sellsword company type arrangement? Even though that is a strange sounding example I admit but if you take into account the singers likely could communicate with them an alliance of this sort isn't that much of a stretch.

I know of Asha's comment on how the Cotf made the trees attack which seems to me like a reference of the Others in their armour which reflects the green of the forest as highlighted clearly in the AGOT Prologue.

Asha:

"She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors."

Prologue:

"Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took."

And I know of the oft used quote involving Sam about the child's Snow Knight.

"Sam the Slayer!" he said, by way of greeting. "Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child's snow knight?"

Couldn't either of these quotes simply refer to the Others not being a creation of the Cotf but simply a one time alliance? A hired army of sorts? A child's Snow Knight to me seems to make that sound quite likely. Knights work in the service of people, the Cotf could have tried to use these Others from the far North in retaliation to men's war/crimes on them but regretted the decision then helped men beat them back when they realised it was a mistake. 

Does this necessarily mean they created them though? Does it have to mean this? I dont really think so. 

If they did create them then why didn't they create thousands of them before sending them off to war on men? We haven't really heard of the Others having great numbers, ever. They are always associated with sending Wights against men, that's their army. Did the Cotf have that in mind while they were creating them, did they make it so that their creations could raise Wights through Necromancy to fight for them?.

And to close, I'll say again, if the Cotf set the creation of the Others with spells. The same spell Sam breaks, then the Cotf could just break that spell could they not?, ending any threat of the Others. 

These are the thoughts I've been tussling with this cold winters day.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Following. 

Some really interesting thoughts here @Macgregor of the North. 

I have just woke up, I haven't even managed a coffee yet. So I don't have anything to contribute yet. But hopefully once my brain has kicked in I'll have some thoughts. 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Following. 

Some really interesting thoughts here @Macgregor of the North. 

I have just woke up, I haven't even managed a coffee yet. So I don't have anything to contribute yet. But hopefully once my brain has kicked in I'll have some thoughts. 

Cool Weirwood Eyes, catch you later on the thread maybe. 

[JLE]

Where is there any evidence that GRRM either (a) said "the spell that holds Ser Puddles together" at all, or (b) was referring to the Others when he did so? Right from the start, the Others have been presented as a race and a force in their own right - not a spell-construct that can be undone by breaking the spell.

[Macgregor of the North]

19 minutes ago, JLE said:

Where is there any evidence that GRRM either (a) said "the spell that holds Ser Puddles together" at all, or (b) was referring to the Others when he did so? Right from the start, the Others have been presented as a race and a force in their own right - not a spell-construct that can be undone by breaking the spell.

This was allegedly taken from an interview with GRRM last year. It has been used many a time round this forum in discussions such as these. 

It is show related but there seems to be no doubt he is talking about the Other that Sam killed with his Dragonglass blade, which also happens in the books. 

(I'll add, even though this quote was mentioned most likely in light of something that happened in the show I'm discussing EVERYTHING from a books sense here and will not derail this thread in the direction of discussions on the mummers interpretation).

"In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

I personally find it quite a weak explanation for the books that the Others were created by the singers and held together with spells, hence my thread right here. 

Maybe @Black Crow could provide the source of the quote. I've mostly saw it presented by them. 

 

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Maybe @Black Crow could provide the source of the quote. I've mostly saw it presented by them. 

 

The quote is as described above. It was a feature on Sky Atlantic [the UK channel showing GoT] broadcast just ahead of season 5. It was the usual compilation of clips and talking heads; actors, producers, techies and GRRM, and in one of his pieces to camera GRRM explained that when Sam pinked Ser Puddle with the dragonglass "he broke the spell holding him together." - I posted immediately

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

The quote is as described above. It was a feature on Sky Atlantic [the UK channel showing GoT] broadcast just ahead of season 5. It was the usual compilation of clips and talking heads; actors, producers, techies and GRRM, and in one of his pieces to camera GRRM explained that when Sam pinked Ser Puddle with the dragonglass "he broke the spell holding him together." - I posted immediately

Cheers for that Black Crow. 

[Jon Fossoway]

11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

"In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

 

Sounds like he was joking about Sam popping up the Other like a balloon. Jon also did pop one up. Meera did too, it was absurd in the end. They were so easy to... bust. ¨

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Sounds like he was joking about Sam popping up the Other like a balloon. Jon also did pop one up. Meera did too, it was absurd in the end. They were so easy to... bust. ¨

Lol, it's the spell bit I'm interested in though and if it applies to our Others from the books. 

[Mat92]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Lol, it's the spell bit I'm interested in though and if it applies to our Others from the books. 

I think his comment might be relating to the Others in the show and not the book. In the books they seem more... elf like if that's a correct interpretation? I believe GRRM once made the distinction between them in the books and the show. In the show they seem solely to be an external threat, but I feel like in comments that he has made in the past, book Others may have a more complicated/detailed history. The show seems to have streamlined a lot of events to move the story ahead.

Apologies for making my post so much about the show but it's relevant to distinguishing them from their book counterparts for this discussion. 

[velo-knight]

For a moment I thought GRRM had officially embraced "Ser Puddles" and was delighted.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Unless/until it's confirmed in the books it can be doubted as a show creation. Given current info it also makes very little sense. The Others showed up AFTER the peace between First Men and CotF, so there should have been no reason to create them at that point. And as you say, OP, the CotF should have easily been able to take them out once they realized their monster had gone too far. I must admit though that it makes sense that the Last Hero needed the CotF to tell him how to defeat the Others if they had created them in the first place. What's missing though is why the CotF either 1) didn't stop the Others themselves, or 2) agreed to help save mankind after having created a race of ice zombies whose sole purpose was to destroy men.

While we're on the subject...it also makes no sense that they prevent someone being wighted via the method used to create Others. I sincerely hope someone on the show is taking massive liberties for the sake of saying "okay here's an explanation for some stuff; let's move on to more gore, nudity, and things blowing up."

GRRM has said in the past that the Others are inhuman/not human. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that they never were human, but why would a human being transformed by magic suddenly lose the ability to speak their own language? Not counting wighting here because that's a rather low-level reanimation of something already dead as opposed to changing a being while it's alive. He's also said they are somewhat like the Sidhe. The latter definitely makes me think in terms of a being that is not human in origin. 

That quote from Asha actually strikes me more as one of my homages to Tolkien, in this case a reference to the ents. But you make a good point for a link to the Others being a good possibility. One of the main points of contention between the CotF and the First Men was the destruction of the weirwoods. Weirwoods don't seem to resemble the Others, but that doesn't mean there isn't some kind of connection.

@Macgregor of the North do you think there's a tie-in somewhere to the Neverborn mentioned in GRRM's original summary of the series? Since the hierarchy once included a third option (Others, Wights, Neverborn) I've wondered sometimes if GRRM's comment about the spell holding the Other/White Walker together indicated another, more sinister being that created them and must be fought. I know there was a post a while back about the possibility that Others and White Walkers are actually separate and that the modern characters just aren't aware that there is a distinction. There's another thread--sorry I can't recall titles, or I would look them up and link to them--that suggested Night's Queen was an ice version of a shadowbinder and the Others were her shadowbabies--a literal shadow war between ice and fire.

[Macgregor of the North]

23 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

I think his comment might be relating to the Others in the show and not the book. In the books they seem more... elf like if that's a correct interpretation? I believe GRRM once made the distinction between them in the books and the show. In the show they seem solely to be an external threat, but I feel like in comments that he has made in the past, book Others may have a more complicated/detailed history. The show seems to have streamlined a lot of events to move the story ahead.

Apologies for making my post so much about the show but it's relevant to distinguishing them from their book counterparts for this discussion. 

Yup I'm with you, we do have to touch on it slightly in our comparisons I guess, I just wanted to kind of lay down early that I am a book discussion kinda guy. 

So, if I follow you. Do you personally view the Others as their own kind of species, not created by the singers?

I personally think the "adaption" of the story has streamlined how the Others came to be as they couldn't possibly go into what details of how we will find out they came to be if you follow me. 

I just have this feeling it will be different in the books. I'll eat my hat of course if it's not lol. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Please keep in mind that the creation of the Others by the CotF is not yet canon per the books. Same for the method of doing so.

Unless/until it's confirmed in the books it can be doubted as a show creation. Given current info it also makes very little sense. The Others showed up AFTER the peace between First Men and CotF, so there should have been no reason to create them at that point. And as you say, OP, the CotF should have easily been able to take them out once they realized their monster had gone too far. I must admit though that it makes sense that the Last Hero needed the CotF to tell him how to defeat the Others if they had created them in the first place. What's missing though is why the CotF either 1) didn't stop the Others themselves, or 2) agreed to help save mankind after having created a race of ice zombies whose sole purpose was to destroy men.

While we're on the subject...it also makes no sense that they prevent someone being wighted via the method used to create Others. I sincerely hope someone on the show is taking massive liberties for the sake of saying "okay here's an explanation for some stuff; let's move on to more gore, nudity, and things blowing up."

GRRM has said in the past that the Others are inhuman/not human. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that they never were human, but why would a human being transformed by magic suddenly lose the ability to speak their own language? Not counting wighting here because that's a rather low-level reanimation of something already dead as opposed to changing a being while it's alive. He's also said they are somewhat like the Sidhe. The latter definitely makes me think in terms of a being that is not human in origin. 

That quote from Asha actually strikes me more as one of my homages to Tolkien, in this case a reference to the ents. But you make a good point for a link to the Others being a good possibility. One of the main points of contention between the CotF and the First Men was the destruction of the weirwoods. Weirwoods don't seem to resemble the Others, but that doesn't mean there isn't some kind of connection.

@Macgregor of the North do you think there's a tie-in somewhere to the Neverborn mentioned in GRRM's original summary of the series? Since the hierarchy once included a third option (Others, Wights, Neverborn) I've wondered sometimes if GRRM's comment about the spell holding the Other/White Walker together indicated another, more sinister being that created them and must be fought. I know there was a post a while back about the possibility that Others and White Walkers are actually separate and that the modern characters just aren't aware that there is a distinction. There's another thread--sorry I can't recall titles, or I would look them up and link to them--that suggested Night's Queen was an ice version of a shadowbinder and the Others were her shadowbabies--a literal shadow war between ice and fire.

The peace was between COTF and the First Men, it wasn't with the Andals. The world book indicates there was even a time the First Men and cotf fought with each other against the Andals.  Point being the COTF were being destroyed again.

There are at least two points in favor of the COTF creating the WW's.  

First is that the weapons they use are able to kill them, very useful if your planning on unleashing a race of killers.

2nd is that according to the worldbook the seasons were once normal.  That would lead me to believe that the WW's were made at some point resulting in the seasonal imbalance.

[Mat92]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

So, if I follow you. Do you personally view the Others as their own kind of species, not created by the singers?

I'm not sure. There's so little information regarding them in the books so far (purposefully I'm sure) that it's hard to make an educated guess. I'm actually struggling to answer this question the more I think about it haha. I think that it would be an interesting development in the books to find out that the Children were behind it. So, yes currently I see them as their own species, however there are a lot of interesting implications if the Children had a hand in their creation. 

So basically - my answer was not very helpful haha. 

[Mat92]

3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

2nd is that according to the worldbook the seasons were once normal.  That would lead me to believe that the WW's were made at some point resulting in the seasonal imbalance.

Interesting, I'll have to look into that.

I have AWOIAF but still have not had time to read it all!

[Macgregor of the North]

@Lady Blizzardborn, thanks for your post. Plenty to think on.

I always do wonder what the scenario was that saw the singers turn these Others to fight with men, if indeed they ever did. By all accounts it was during the Long Night. So even though the world was covered in a terrible dark winter which would have been destroying humanity well enough while the singers likely hid underground in their hollow hills, they still felt the need to "create" a species of Icy demon Inhuman Sidhe type beings to kill men?.

Its a strange one. I'm with the singers possibly using these beings to fight men but where does it fit in with the Long Night because I'm quite sure the Others coming does NOT cause the Long Night so if they were used as a weapon they were sent to accompany this dark long winter I presume and their coming just made it worse?. Hmmm. We desperately need more clarity on this one.

I'm totally with you on their description by GRRM and how it (like yourself) doesn't bring me to the conclusion that they were simply human men that were "changed". They seem completely unique as if they evolved somewhere deep in the Lands of always winter, or were 'created' there from some other higher cold power. 

What you mention on the Neverborn and there being three types of threat from the Others angle, like Wights, Walkers, and then Others, has always been a tough one for me because when you read the Prologue, parts of it are not from Wills POV (even though in general the Prologue is), parts of it are simply GRRMS narration of the scene. Like when he says, "the Other slid forward on silent feet", to me that is GRRM describing that being as an Other. 

So to me, when Waymar met the Others so did we, and the Others and the White Walkers in the story are one and the same.

[Lord Varys]

Ignoring the thing that should not be named in this section of the board there are a lot of hints that the Others might be artificial creatures that might have been created by the Children.

George has told us that the Others don't have a culture, suggesting that they aren't an independent/natural race or people, we also know that those creatures we know as the Others are supposed to be Craster's sons which, if true, means that the Others are indeed created out of male human children.

@Lady Blizzardborn is right that the conventional time line suggests that the Others only showed up after the Pact, sort of indicating that it is unlikely that the Children created them as weapons during their long war against the First Men. Yet we don't know whether that's actually the case. After all, the accounts we have of those ages are very unreliable and the glimpses we get of the history of the early days in ADwD (through Bran's visions) or during the more obscure accounts in TWoIaF suggest that the First Men once were a very barbaric and cruel people (human sacrifices to the weirwoods, the truth behind Garth the Green, etc.) and the war between the Children and the First Men was essentially a war of extermination.

Yandel tells us that the Pact was made because the wiser people on both sides prevailed in the end - which can entail that there were radical factions on each side who wanted to (and eventually did) continue the war.

And the interesting thing is that we just don't know yet what led to the Long Night and why and how the Others first showed (in that sense this thing is just as odd as our information of the events leading to the beginning of Robert's Rebellion).

It could very well be that the conflict between the First Men and the Children began anew and then the Children finally decided to transform human children into weapons against the First Men.

It is also possible that only a radical faction among the Children created the Others (and possibly still control them from the Heart of Winter in the Lands of Always Winter). That could explain why the Children (or rather the majority faction of them) decided to help the Last Hero during the Long Night.

It is also possible that the first Others were indeed created before the Pact was made but only were strong or numerous enough to be finally deployed much later.

In general there is also the possibility the relationship between the Children and the Others is going to be similar to the Old Ones and the shoggoths from Lovecraft's 'At the Mountains of Madness' (or to that Babylon 5 episode where an entire species was wiped out by an artificial intelligence a fascist society on that planet to protect it against racially impure elements), meaning that the Children were able to create the Others but eventually lost control over them and their goals, facing extinction at the hands of their own creations.

It seems that the Children still can protect themselves and their abodes against the Others but they might no longer be able to control them or change their objectives - not to mention that the ultimate victory of the Others might also destroy the Children (assuming they would be still around at that point).

I'm not sure what version I prefer but I think I lean towards the possibility that the Others are not just essentially mad/out-of-control magical weapons who still follow their ancient directives/programming (who also are able to increase their numbers by transforming human children into their own) but rather are actually still directed by an intelligence - a person, or a group of persons - who also still have a motivation and an agenda.

If (a faction of) the Children are behind them then one would assume that some of them are still directing the Others - possibly even being the first Others themselves. If not, then some other non-human species should be behind them.

We also have to keep in mind that it is very likely the Long Night was actually caused by the Others. We know they bring cold (and perhaps even darkness) with them since the very Prologue of the series.

[Macgregor of the North]

18 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The peace was between COTF and the First Men, it wasn't with the Andals. The world book indicates there was even a time the First Men and cotf fought with each other against the Andals.  Point being the COTF were being destroyed again.

There are at least two points in favor of the COTF creating the WW's.  

First is that the weapons they use are able to kill them, very useful if your planning on unleashing a race of killers.

2nd is that according to the worldbook the seasons were once normal.  That would lead me to believe that the WW's were made at some point resulting in the seasonal imbalance.

So you lean to the idea that the Cotf used First men to create the Others and this creation turned them into this inhuman sidhe looking beings, and this was to combat the Andal threat?. I'm just trying to get an idea of where the forums heads at as i think this logic that the cotf created these beings can be called into question and analysed.

On your two points in favor.

Since the singers are magical type creatures and actually sing the song of earth isnt it just as likely that they saw the Others for what they were, beings of ice, and realised that Dragonglass/Obsidian - actual Frozen Fire! would harm them? So when they decided to help men against them they clued men up with this info?.

And yes the seasons were once normal but there are many magical things that could have changed that. The whole magical second moon explosion that @LmL brings to the table isnt half a bad idea.

I actually think its possible that when this second magical moons shower of shit hit the "earth", some of it caused some sort of magical upheaval in what is now kown as the lands of always winter and possibly kick started these beings evolution from ice. Sort of like the black moon rock was the cause somehow maybe? This, in a roundabout way has the creation of the Others and the long night connected but not in the sense that the cotf held a first man and just turned him into an inhuman sidhe looking ice being, im sorry but that is something that just doesnt sit well with me at all.

But... of course im waiting with my hat ready to eat it incase lol. 

[Macgregor of the North]

29 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

So basically - my answer was not very helpful haha. 

Its cool, this is a tough one to make your mind up on