Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So is the same true of dragonsteel? Is it just another story of knights before there were knights, just as the Arthurian knights of Tennyson's poetry wear plate armour of the High Middle Ages?

Or is there something really screwed about the timelines?

This has already been touched upon a bit, but I don't think we need to necessarily view dragonsteel as inconsistent with the timelines. As Armstark raises, it may represent a magical forging technique that predated Valyria. We even have precedent for this line of speculation:
 

Quote

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

So, we have an ancient blade belonging to a FM family that shares all of the notable attributes of Valyrian steel, save for appearance. More curious still, the Daynes themselves have the astonishing purple eyes of the Valyrians.

Now, the latter could be meaningless, or could just be the consequence of some unknown intermarriages in House Dayne's history, but with the way eye color has been treated in the text (eg, eyes like burning blue stars, moss green eyes, Melisandre's eyes, albino greenseers and green dreamers) I have a suspicion that it may be a hint toward House Dayne's possible connection to sorcerous events in ancient Westeros history--that they have been 'marked.'
_______________

In addition to all of that, it's also possible that the name dragonsteel doesn't necessarily imply any actual connection to dragons, just as is the case with dragonglass--perhaps the LH was a man that had been filled with sorcerous fire like Beric, and could set his blade aflame, and calling his weapon "dragonsteel" was a bit of poetic license.

[Matthew.]

53 minutes ago, Armstark said:

Another feature of Winterfell that has not been discussed enough in my opinion is the broken tower.

As an addition, the broken tower seems to be right next to (or a part of?) the First Keep, which would mean it's also near the crypts. Since the First Keep is one of the oldest structures, the tower may very well date to the period of the NK (or earlier).

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Where have we seen the Horn of Joramun? Or do you mean the one Melisandre burnt?

Of the two horns that show up at the Wall; the smaller, nondescript horn is likely to be the horn of Jorumun.  It is the common type that the men of the NW watch carry with them.    Mormont can identify the owner of the horn when it is sounded:

Quote

Up ahead a hunting horn sounded a quavering note, half drowned beneath the constant patter of the rain. "Buckwell's horn," the Old Bear announced. "The gods are good; Craster's still there." His raven gave a single flap of his big wings, croaked "Corn," and ruffled his feathers up again.

It seems to me that Joramun's horn would be of the same type and identified by it's owner as well.  The large horn is a feint, especially, if both horns were found in the same grave.  To divert searchers from the truly dangerous horn that must not be sounded; the reason why it's broken.  The larger, more impressive horn that resembles Dragonbinder with it's size and runic inscriptions; that is also likely to kill anyone who sounds it to further discourage anyone from using the false horn of Joramun.

This goes back to your question about dragons in Westeros.  Why would there be a dragonbinding horn buried in a grave at all?

As for Melisandre destroying that horn; I think that too is a feint.  There are large warhorns of that type used at the Wall and I think she replaced and glamored it for show, to consolidate her power over the small folk.   Melisandre might be a fanatic, but she is not stupid.  If it were the Horn of Joruman that preserves the Wall; then destroying it would bring down the Wall; something that she is desperately afraid of.  But a dragon binding horn?  That's something she herself could use.  I think it's more likely that it's hidden at the Wall.

 

[Armstark]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Of the two horns that show up at the Wall; the smaller, nondescript horn is likely to be the horn of Jorumun.  It is the common type that the men of the NW watch carry with them.    Mormont can identify the owner of the horn when it is sounded:

It seems to me that Joramun's horn would be of the same type and identified by it's owner as well.  The large horn is a feint, especially, if both horns were found in the same grave.  To divert searchers from the truly dangerous horn that must not be sounded; the reason why it's broken.  The larger, more impressive horn that resembles Dragonbinder with it's size and runic inscriptions; that is also likely to kill anyone who sounds it to further discourage anyone from using the false horn of Joramun.

This goes back to your question about dragons in Westeros.  Why would there be a dragonbinding horn buried in a grave at all?

As for Melisandre destroying that horn; I think that too is a feint.  There are large warhorns of that type used at the Wall and I think she replaced and glamored it for show, to consolidate her power over the small folk.   Melisandre might be a fanatic, but she is not stupid.  If it were the Horn of Joruman that preserves the Wall; then destroying it would bring down the Wall; something that she is desperately afraid of.  But a dragon binding horn?  That's something she herself could use.  I think it's more likely that it's hidden at the Wall.

 

I don't follow your logic. Joramun was not a men of the NW so why would he have a common NW horn? How could the old bear recognize the sound of the Horn of Joramun when it has been silent for centuries at least? What indication is there that the broken horn found on the Fist comes from the same grave as the big horn burned by Melisandre? 

We agree on one thing though, the big horn that get's burned is a feint as both Ygritte and Tormund admit.

Oh and Melisandre is most definitely stupid but that is besides the point because the legend of the Horn of Joramun says nothing of preserving the Wall. Destroying it does not bring down the Wall, blowing it thrice would do it.

The link I posted on the last page really goes into great detail on all the horns in the story, it is an interesting read!

29 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As an addition, the broken tower seems to be right next to (or a part of?) the First Keep, which would mean it's also near the crypts. Since the First Keep is one of the oldest structures, the tower may very well date to the period of the NK (or earlier).

The broken tower leans close enough to the First Keep that Bran could make the jump. It also was the highest place in Winterfell, right above the crypts, the lowest part of Winterfell.

 

[PrettyPig]

16 hours ago, Armstark said:

The Targaryen role in things to come is too easily dismissed in heresy for my taste. They might be new to Westeros but their knowledge is old.

I agree.   I suspect that the Starks and the now-Targaryens may have quite a few things in common from wayback days.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I don't follow your logic. Joramun was not a men of the NW so why would he have a common NW horn? How could the old bear recognize the sound of the Horn of Joramun when it has been silent for centuries at least? What indication is there that the broken horn found on the Fist comes from the same grave as the big horn burned by Melisandre? 

No, no, I don't mean that Mormont would recognize the horn of Joramun if sounded.  I'm drawing a comparison to the small horn as the type of horn that is commonly used at the Wall.  Tyrion sees Jon wearing such a horn when he visits him on his watch.  Jon says that it is the 'watcher' designated for the evening that wears the horn.  When Mormont takes the watch out on the great ranging and he hears a horn sounded; he can actually identify the owner of the horn.  As demonstrated in the quote I provided.  Horns and their unique sounds identify the owner.  Horns on the Wall are also used to wake the sleepers the men of the watch, to start the day.  So I don't think it's a coincidence that there is such a horn called Joramun's Horn (that wakes the sleepers) and is there a connection to the small broken horn?  I think they are one in the same.  And yes, this does point to Joramun being a man of the watch at some point.  If he was also killed and coldhanded; his watch would be ended.  I think we're seeing a replay with Jon who may yet become King Beyond the Wall or King in the North and join forces with the Wildlings

As for the other great horn that Melisandre burned; I think it's not the original.  The description of the burning has the appearance of a glamor in use along with the glamors extended to Rattleshirt and Stannis' sword.  She's so overextended, the fire magic almost gets away from her; if it wasn't for Jon she would have gone up in smoke herself.

So on that line of questioning; why is there a dragonbinding horn if it is needed for the purpose of binding a dragon past or present? I can't dismiss that possibility just because we have no evidence of dragons used in Westeros before the Targaryens.  The horn itself might be evidence.

 

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Who do you think placed the horn there and how did they acquire it?

Good question.

An obvious answer might be Coldhands doing his bit to make sure the stuff goes where its needed, but I think we can discount this simply because there are a lot easier ways of delivering it - leaving it by the side of a trail for example, rather than burying it in an obscure bit of primeval forest.

On balance I'm inclined to finger Benjen and look to him having acquired the stuff by whatever means and then, being hunted, caching it as much in order to prevent his pursuers recovering it as in the hopes of coming back for in later. How accidental Ghost's discovery of it might turn out to have been I don't know but I'd certainly favour this scenario over it being deliberately planted for Jon to find at that time.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

On balance I'm inclined to finger Benjen and look to him having acquired the stuff by whatever means and then, being hunted, caching it as much in order to prevent his pursuers recovering it as in the hopes of coming back for in later. How accidental Ghost's discovery of it might turn out to have been I don't know but I'd certainly favour this scenario over it being deliberately planted for Jon to find at that time.

That's an interesting thought.  It may be that Benjen took these items with him from the Wall when he left on his ranging rather than finding them somewhere beyond the Wall..

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

This has already been touched upon a bit, but I don't think we need to necessarily view dragonsteel as inconsistent with the timelines. As Armstark raises, it may represent a magical forging technique that predated Valyria. We even have precedent for this line of speculation:
 

So, we have an ancient blade belonging to a FM family that shares all of the notable attributes of Valyrian steel, save for appearance. More curious still, the Daynes themselves have the astonishing purple eyes of the Valyrians.

Now, the latter could be meaningless, or could just be the consequence of some unknown intermarriages in House Dayne's history, but with the way eye color has been treated in the text (eg, eyes like burning blue stars, moss green eyes, Melisandre's eyes, albino greenseers and green dreamers) I have a suspicion that it may be a hint toward House Dayne's possible connection to sorcerous events in ancient Westeros history--that they have been 'marked.'
_______________

In addition to all of that, it's also possible that the name dragonsteel doesn't necessarily imply any actual connection to dragons, just as is the case with dragonglass--perhaps the LH was a man that had been filled with sorcerous fire like Beric, and could set his blade aflame, and calling his weapon "dragonsteel" was a bit of poetic license.

I think that I can agree with all or most of this. As I pointed out Damascus steel actually originated in India long before it was so named, so I wouldn't rule out its existing long before Valyria and see no reason in principal why a dragonsteel blade shouldn't be called Dawn.

Nevertheless I remain conscious that the dragonsteel is mentioned only in a passage, which uniquely appears in two different books, where contradictions and anachronisms are discussed.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It may be that Benjen took these items with him from the Wall when he left on his ranging rather than finding them somewhere beyond the Wall..

Given Mormont's palpable ignorance I'd very much doubt that.

I'd be more inclined to see it as Benjen capturing it either directly from Mance's people or intercepting it on the way to Mance and then making a run for the border. Mance knowing that Benjen had it might then explain his interest in the Winterfell crypts if he knew that Benjen had escaped [from him at least] but didn't know Benjen had been forced to cache it long before reaching the Wall.

[Black Crow]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

So on that line of questioning; why is there a dragonbinding horn if it is needed for the purpose of binding a dragon past or present? I can't dismiss that possibility just because we have no evidence of dragons used in Westeros before the Targaryens.  The horn itself might be evidence.

 

 

But is it a dragonbinding horn?

That particular theory seems only to rest on a supposed resemblance [not raised in text] between the one burned by Melisandre and the one possessed by Victarion. There's no suggestion in the legends that Joruman's horn has any connection to dragons and the one found by Jon is a much more modest affair.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But is it a dragonbinding horn?

That particular theory seems only to rest on a supposed resemblance [not raised in text] between the one burned by Melisandre and the one possessed by Victarion. There's no suggestion in the legends that Joruman's horn has any connection to dragons and the one found by Jon is a much more modest affair.

The big horn isn't Joramun's horn.  Yes, it has a resemblance to a dragon binding horn, banded and runed.  Which raises the question of it's origin and purpose if it isn't a glorified war horn.

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The big horn isn't Joramun's horn.  Yes, it has a resemblance to a dragon binding horn, banded and runed.  Which raises the question of it's origin and purpose if it isn't a glorified war horn.

Exactly so, but that appears to be the only basis for the theory that Joruman's horn has anything to do with dragons - hence my disagreement 

[LmL]

There is ample evidence of dragon activity in Westeros in the dawn age. You don't even have to read my Great Empire of the Dawn theory to know that. The maesters have discovered evidence of dragon activity all over the world, including Westeros. Additionally, we have that large fused stone fortress at Oldtown which was built before any first man supposedly ever got to Westeros. But fused tone can only be built by Dragon Lords & sorcery, so in my opinion this is ironclad proof the dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age, set up shop, and built themselves a fortress. Quite possibly this happened before first men ever got to Westeros, but I suspect it would have been contiguous.

To go beyond what is known, and add my two sense, I would say that it's pretty obvious that the myths of Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are connected. They are both heroes to defeat the long night with a magical sword which is associated with dragons. The connection between lightbringer and fighting the long night - which is set up throughout all the books - tells us that there has to be a connection between ancient dragon people and fighting the others at the wall. You cannot separate Azor Ahai and dragons, because he is supposed to return and wake dragons out of stone. What's the point of waking dragons if one is not a dragonrider? And why would anyone think Azor Ahai would return to wake dragons if he wasn't associated with dragons the first time around? Thus it's no coincidence that the last hero was remembered as having a sort of dragonsteel. The entire story of the war for the dawn is about dragons coming to Westeros. That's also why we have so many Dragon people coming to the wall throughout the story - they are echoes of the original events when dragon people came to the Wall and fought the others. And of course that's why we have a prominent manifestation of Azor Ahai reborn who is a dragonlord who will be heading to the Wall to fight the Others with dragons. 

[Armstark]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, no, I don't mean that Mormont would recognize the horn of Joramun if sounded.  I'm drawing a comparison to the small horn as the type of horn that is commonly used at the Wall.  Tyrion sees Jon wearing such a horn when he visits him on his watch.  Jon says that it is the 'watcher' designated for the evening that wears the horn.  When Mormont takes the watch out on the great ranging and he hears a horn sounded; he can actually identify the owner of the horn.  As demonstrated in the quote I provided.  Horns and their unique sounds identify the owner.  Horns on the Wall are also used to wake the sleepers the men of the watch, to start the day.  So I don't think it's a coincidence that there is such a horn called Joramun's Horn (that wakes the sleepers) and is there a connection to the small broken horn?  I think they are one in the same.  And yes, this does point to Joramun being a man of the watch at some point.  If he was also killed and coldhanded; his watch would be ended.  I think we're seeing a replay with Jon who may yet become King Beyond the Wall or King in the North and join forces with the Wildlings

As for the other great horn that Melisandre burned; I think it's not the original.  The description of the burning has the appearance of a glamor in use along with the glamors extended to Rattleshirt and Stannis' sword.  She's so overextended, the fire magic almost gets away from her; if it wasn't for Jon she would have gone up in smoke herself.

So on that line of questioning; why is there a dragonbinding horn if it is needed for the purpose of binding a dragon past or present? I can't dismiss that possibility just because we have no evidence of dragons used in Westeros before the Targaryens.  The horn itself might be evidence.

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand better now., doesn't mean I agree though

I think you are mistaken that every horn at the watch can be attributed to someone by its sound. There are multiple times a horn is blown by some watchmen that does not get attributed to someone. In fact there are only two instances where the blower is identified:

Up ahead a hunting horn sounded a quavering note, half drowned beneath the constant patter of the rain. “Buckwell's horn,” the Old Bear announced.

Red Alyn sounded his sentry's horn once more, Aaaaahoooooooooooooooooooooooooo, aaaaahoooooooooooooooooooo.

And the second one is even called a sentry's horn, indicating that there are multiple horns just like it given to sentries.

There is actually nothing at all in the text that indicates that the horn found at the Fist is the Horn of Joramun. We are obviously meant to wonder about it but GRRM presents no clues that it actually is the fabled horn.

8 minutes ago, LmL said:

There is ample evidence of dragon activity in Westeros in the dawn age. You don't even have to read my Great Empire of the Dawn theory to know that. The maesters have discovered evidence of dragon activity all over the world, including Westeros. Additionally, we have that large fused stone fortress at Oldtown which was built before any first man supposedly ever got to Westeros. But fused tone can only be built by Dragon Lords & sorcery, so in my opinion this is ironclad proof the dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age, set up shop, and built themselves a fortress. Quite possibly this happened before first men ever got to Westeros, but I suspect it would have been contiguous.

 

I disagree with the bolded part and the conclusions you draw from it. Fused stone can only be built by dragons. If you want gargoyles, towers and gates like Dragonstone you need dragon lords and sorcery but the simple, twisting tunnels of the Battle Isle can be built by dragons alone. No humans required.

There is ample evidence of dragons in Westeros but no evidence of dragon lords before the Targaryens.

[Armstark]

51 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Given Mormont's palpable ignorance I'd very much doubt that.

I'd be more inclined to see it as Benjen capturing it either directly from Mance's people or intercepting it on the way to Mance and then making a run for the border. Mance knowing that Benjen had it might then explain his interest in the Winterfell crypts if he knew that Benjen had escaped [from him at least] but didn't know Benjen had been forced to cache it long before reaching the Wall.

But Mance knows that Benjen never reached the Wall and thus could not have brought the horn to Winterfell. Mance also seems to have some indication that the real horn is buried with someone, why else search all those graves? So when he is in Winterfell and interested in the crypts it's not a stretch to believe that he decided he was looking in the wrong graves.

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, Armstark said:

But Mance knows that Benjen never reached the Wall and thus could not have brought the horn to Winterfell. Mance also seems to have some indication that the real horn is buried with someone, why else search all those graves? So when he is in Winterfell and interested in the crypts it's not a stretch to believe that he decided he was looking in the wrong graves.

He can only know if he killed him. All else is supposition - within the story.

As to the horn being buried, yes a Winterfell grave might be possibility, with the caveat that we the readers know it aint there.

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, LmL said:

There is ample evidence of dragon activity in Westeros in the dawn age. You don't even have to read my Great Empire of the Dawn theory to know that. The maesters have discovered evidence of dragon activity all over the world, including Westeros. Additionally, we have that large fused stone fortress at Oldtown which was built before any first man supposedly ever got to Westeros. But fused tone can only be built by Dragon Lords & sorcery, so in my opinion this is ironclad proof the dragonlords came to Westeros in the Dawn Age, set up shop, and built themselves a fortress. Quite possibly this happened before first men ever got to Westeros, but I suspect it would have been contiguous.

To go beyond what is known, and add my two sense, I would say that it's pretty obvious that the myths of Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are connected. They are both heroes to defeat the long night with a magical sword which is associated with dragons. The connection between lightbringer and fighting the long night - which is set up throughout all the books - tells us that there has to be a connection between ancient dragon people and fighting the others at the wall. You cannot separate Azor Ahai and dragons, because he is supposed to return and wake dragons out of stone. What's the point of waking dragons if one is not a dragonrider? And why would anyone think Azor Ahai would return to wake dragons if he wasn't associated with dragons the first time around? Thus it's no coincidence that the last hero was remembered as having a sort of dragonsteel. The entire story of the war for the dawn is about dragons coming to Westeros. That's also why we have so many Dragon people coming to the wall throughout the story - they are echoes of the original events when dragon people came to the Wall and fought the others. And of course that's why we have a prominent manifestation of Azor Ahai reborn who is a dragonlord who will be heading to the Wall to fight the Others with dragons. 

I have to disagree on this. There is nothing in Westerosi history to suggest the presence of dragons before Aegon tooled up. Where I will concede the possibility is in a previous history of Westeros, per my earlier post, ie; a history which predates not just men but children.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so, but that appears to be the only basis for the theory that Joruman's horn has anything to do with dragons - hence my disagreement 

We are talking about two different horns after all.  The horn that belonged to Joramun ... the horn of winter that wakes the sleepers is no more likely to be the large ostentatious horn than Christ's cup at the last supper was golden chalice. 

Quote

The call came drifting through the black of night. Jon pushed himself onto an elbow, his hand reaching for Longclaw by force of habit as the camp began to stir. The horn that wakes the sleepers, he thought.

*******

He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck.

Quote

Had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance’s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn? - Jon

Quote

Mance’s Horn

 

 

Lady Melisandre watched him rise. "FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall." Two queen's men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Ygritte had told Jon that Mance never found the horn. She lied, or else Mance kept it secret even from his own.

 

Dragonbinder:

That night, for the first time, he brought forth the dragon horn that the Crow's Eye had found amongst the smoking wastes of great Valyria. A twisted thing it was, six feet long from end to end, gleaming black and banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel. Euron's hellhorn. Victarion ran his hand along it. The horn was as warm and smooth as the dusky woman's thighs, and so shiny that he could see a twisted likeness of his own features in its depths. Strange sorcerous writings had been cut into the bands that girded it. "Valyrian glyphs," Moqorro called them.

 

That much Victarion had known. "What do they say?"

"Much and more." The black priest pointed to one golden band. "Here the horn is named. 'I am Dragonbinder,' it says. Have you ever heard it sound?"

 

 

"Once." One of his brother's mongrels had sounded the hellhorn at the kingsmoot on Old Wyk. A monster of a man he had been, huge and shaven-headed, with rings of gold and jet and jade around arms thick with muscle, and a great hawk tattooed across his chest. "The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one."

 

A glamored horn?

A thousand captives watched through the wooden bars of their stockade as the horn was lifted high. All were ragged and half-starved. Wildlings, the Seven Kingdoms called them; they named themselves the free folk. They looked neither wild nor free—only hungry, frightened, numb.

"The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn." She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.

It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon's garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air. The queen's men gave a heave and sent the horn tumbling down into the fire pit.

 

 

Perhaps the supporting text is weak but what do we know about the appearance of glamors; the shimmering quality of them?  The horns are different in minor details.  I wouldn't discount Martin pulling this out of his sleeve later on in the story.  LOL.

ETA:  Given Mel's tools of the trade; truth serums and pyrotechnical powders;  it's more than likely that she knows the truth of Mance's horn as a feint; given the control she has over him.  The burning horn has the markers of a fireworks display and is immediately dumped into a pit.  I doubt the horn is destroyed at all.

[Armstark]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

He can only know if he killed him. All else is supposition - within the story.

As to the horn being buried, yes a Winterfell grave might be possibility, with the caveat that we the readers know it aint there.

We know? How so?