Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

The World book is a dubious source of information in general, but it does provide at least a mythological hint of the ancient point at which skinchanging came into the Stark line:

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

Since the Starks were the conquerors, this seems very suggestive.

 

I'd be very wary of using this as the entry point for the ability to skinchange. Daughters taken "as prizes" are at best going to be salt-wives, [if they are lucky] rather than the mothers of kings.

[ravenous reader]

51 minutes ago, Voice said:

Regarding the summons of Jon Snow...

What is deeper than the roots of a weirwood?

I would argue nothing.

 

Correct:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

So you're saying Lyanna is a greenseer?

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If Lyanna is now a part of that weirwood, she is as deep, as old, and as knowing as that weirwood. 

Possibly.

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On 1/6/2017 at 0:53 PM, Black Crow said:

Just an irreverent point which I can't resist.

We've seen that Bran required the weirwood paste [with our without added blood] to begin the induction process as a greenseer.

To become wargs did they need to be licked by their direwolves, ie; did the induction require doggy saliva? 

 

Like @LmL, I dont find this irreverent at all. Quite the contrary. I have oft argued that it is the very birth of the wolf pups that awakened the gift of skinchanging for our children of Winterfell... but I'll come back to that. 

It's a chicken-or-egg situation.  Granted, the birth of the wolves awakened the Starks -- but what caused the birth of the wolves in just that spot?  There's some magical impetus behind the newfound migration and fertility of the direwolf to the South of the Wall.

Symbolically, being licked is a baptism; partaking of the flesh and blood while skinchanging in wolf form is akin to the Holy Communion.  GRRM, having a Catholic background, is using a lot of these Catholic motifs.

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This argument is demonstrated, imo, quite clearly once Gared is beheaded:

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"Ass," Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

It seemed colder on the long ride back to Winterfell, though the wind had died by then and the sun was higher in the sky. Bran rode with his brothers, well ahead of the main party, his pony struggling hard to keep up with their horses.

 

 

Now my old friend, let us not fall into the antler vs dagger debate and instead focus on why Bran feels cold.  

Why would Bran feel colder even though "the wind" had died, and "the sun" was higher in the sky? 

This is a very special Dawn. It is a renaissance for the children of Winterfell. Long before the Volcryn red comet, long before dragons had hatched, long before Mel's talk of great hinges. 

It's not that long before the comet or the birth of Dany's dragons.  There is a wave of magic occurring, all connected -- have you ever watched a good surfer at the beach?  He or she will catch the wave as it breaks and keep riding it through the lip of the tunnel as it forms-- if they don't keep up with it, they're dumped by the force of the water...Anyway, it doesn't really matter which part of the wave comes before or after chronologically; it's all one wave, born of the same generative force translated through the water.  Technically, however, you're correct -- the wolves were seen before the comet.  However, just because it wasn't seen in the sky yet, doesn't mean the comet wasn't already getting closer to earth and its approach felt...the plot thickens...

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This "Sun" rose as "Wind" died, and Bran feels colder in spite of it. 

Translation?

This "sun" was born with the dead. This has layers upon layers of meaning, for me at least. The sun of winter (see Karstark sigil) has risen. The Son of Winterfell has been awakened...

This whole section of yours is brilliantly argued and substantiated.  I think the execution scene mirrors Bran's destiny -- in which death and rebirth occur together.  He is the son of Winterfell destined to save the world by sacrificing himself, whereby dawn will break...As @evita mgfs once highlighted, morning 'breaks' like Bran the 'broken' boy; so another way of saying Dawn breaks is that Bran breaks and rises in one...therefore, Bran is the Dawn!

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but let us return to the very birth of the wolf pups, and listen to another man...

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"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

 

Worse luck? Or an ancient sort of luck?

I think there is much to be said for being born with the dead. I mean, these pups likely share that "worse luck" with several of our protagonists (Dany, Tyrion, maybe Jon). And each of those protagonists have been able to embody the most foundational qualities of their house in ways previously diluted, extinct, or forgotten. 

In other words, those born with the dead seem to have qualities that were once dead. 

Love it.  Especially the last sentence!

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Dany resurrected dragons. Nuff said.

Tyrion is Lann the Clever, reborn.

And Jon ... well, let's just call him a Weirwood Ghost.  

So to return to your quick quip BC, I find it quite on the mark. Though I do not attribute the warg-bond to saliva, I do think there exists a quantifiable leap in wolf-pup-behaviors in the children of Winterfell as they ride forth at daybreak to see a man beheaded. Bran is "nervous with excitement", because he is being reborn. 

...

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"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."  

 

Spoken like a man who might be observant enough to give life to the sigil of his house (like Tyrion the Clever and Dany the Dragon). 

 

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I think we're seeing the same manifestation, just a bit differently. As you might see above in my response to BC, I completely agree that an environmental factor caused phenotypical expression of a pre-existing genetic attribute. And luckily, it was an environmental factor that we could name, and run with, and sleep with, and pet. 

I'm not sold on this being the ultimate reason behind the upsurge in magic.  I think there's something larger to it, which caused the wolves to appear in the first place.

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Warghood is awakened in the North quite early, and Dragons quite late, in the first book. I think it is the red comet really was Dany's comet. And I think the wolf pups really were meant for the children of Winterfell. 

I think they're connected - just opposite faces of the same coin.  Comets are fiery ice creatures by the way -- not that unlike direwolves, wouldn't you say...

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Where we disagree, I think, is that magic is on the rise everywhere for everyone. It isn't. Quent made the same mistake.

Quent?  

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Braavos is still just Braavos, and their Giant is just as still as ever. And while Mel believes she is more powerful at the Wall, she still requires glamours and fire-additives to trick people into believing. 

So I agree that magic is waxing exponentially, but not everywhere. What I see as growing in strength, to that degree and in that way, is Winter. Euron can have his warlock wine. Mel can keep her ruby. The real power is growing like an icy web, and the Needle points to it. 

I love the poetry of it @Voice -- but I still don't understand what you mean!  Please don't refer me to an essay, just sum it up...what do you mean by 'icy web' and 'the Needle pointing to it'?

I do agree, however, that Winter and ice is gathering in force relative to Summer and fire.  However, I still maintain that the heart of ice is fire; and vice versa -- so fire is involved in the North's awakening, however counterintuitive and paradoxical that may seem.  Winterfell is built on a fiery fissure, which sustains it, after all.  In fact, the crypts and the godswood -- the very heart of the magic -- are warmer than their surroundings, like a forge of sorts.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

And clearly, in Star Wars, the Skywalker family lineage is quite mysterious for a reason. No?

It isn't mysterious, though--if a person is so inclined, they can speculate that Anakin was created or w/e, but that's not actually important. Midichlorians and Darth Plagueis are perfect examples of overexplaining, of unnecessary, retroactive world building.

When I talked about "notable Skywalkers," I wasn't talking about the force, I was talking about the serendipity of Luke rescuing his own sister, or both of them unknowingly opposing their own father, all within a 'world' that contains trillions of people. Again, if one is so inclined, they can invent in-world mechanics for why this is the case ("it's the will of the force!"), but the real reason is because it isn't a hard sci-fi story, it's a fairy tale set in space, a fairy tale significantly focused on a particular family and their interpersonal drama.
___

To cut off the tangent, the point I was making as relates to ASOIAF is that, in part, the Starks have been written as extraordinary because the story is more "about" House Stark than it's about, say, House Umber, or House Mormont, or House Karstark, or any number of other FM families that might theoretically pop out multiple skinchangers.

This is why I call it a storytelling conceit. Sure, there might be in-world reasons for so many wargs, but part of it is that House Stark is meant to be inherently more interesting and more important to the reader. They are at the center of the northern story.

It was asserted that GRRM would write a plausible mechanic for why House Stark is beating those 1-in-1000 odds, but I disagree with that premise; I believe that most readers and show watchers easily accept the scene with the dirwolf mother, and its immediate aftermath, as something that was "meant to be"--it's a part of the fairy tale. GRRM isn't inserting characters into a built world, he's building a world around his characters when whim and plot demand that he do so.

To use a related example, GRRM has drawn a line in the sand and said he's never going to explain what happened in Mirri's tent, even though there's plenty of fodder for theories on magic mechanics there--similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if we never get anything explicit about whether the direwolf mother was sent, or who sent her, or whether Gared has any relationship to those events.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

To use a related example, GRRM has drawn a line in the sand and said he's never going to explain what happened in Mirri's tent, even though there's plenty of fodder for theories on magic mechanics there--similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if we never get anything explicit about whether the direwolf mother was sent, or who sent her, or whether Gared has any relationship to those events.

Yes, I'd agree with that. I asked hypothetically whether if the sending of the direwolves was part of a plan - was that plan now in tatters?

I think that the world is as it is. The direwolves were sent to turn the children of Winterfell into wargs because that was necessary for the story. Whilst we can speculate as to who did it and why that party knew it would work, and I still like the idea of Gared with a bone dagger being an agent in the delivery, but we may never know and in the end it may not matter, because what's important is that it did happen.

Interestingly though, the nearest thing we have had to an explanation is Bloodraven's talking with Bran and explaining how he has watched him being born, growing up and falling and how he came to him in dreams etc. but never at any point does he say anything about sending the wolves.

[Voice]

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Correct:

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So you're saying Lyanna is a greenseer?

Not officially. Not wedded in a Green Ceremony like Bran or Bloodraven. I believe Lyanna died unwedded to anyone, as it happens.  

But in a sense, yes. I think Lyanna had the gift and inclination for it. Mere conjecture of course, but not without reason:

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."  

One might say that Bloodraven was brought to an early grave, no? He has remained in that grave for a VERY long time, of course, and had done much and more before being chosen as LC, but one cannot deny that he had a wildness in him. 

I doubt House Blackwood used the term "wolf blood", but I would venture to guess that they nonethless had a term for such inclinations. 

"Raven-Blood" mayhaps?  

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Possibly.

 

I should note that I do not think Lyanna's weirwood-presence is at all unique. 

I believe Theon (while sleeping in Ned's bed) saw that all Starks wind up there... and perhaps... a few Snows as well. 

It should also be noted that Bran and Rickon and Jon all see Eddard in the crypts. The crypts are but open spaces between the roots of Winterfell's heart tree, in my thinking, so this makes complete sense. 

Eddard's body is not there, yet (that we know of), but Eddard's consciousness found that particular weirwood anyway...just as Bran's did when he ate that weirwood seed porridge. 

I would argue that even drunken King Bob's consciousness found its way to Winterfell's heart tree. Not only does Theon's dream seem to suggest this is the case, but Robert himself told us he would do so (from his bed of blood):

"I will give Lyanna your love, Ned."

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It's a chicken-or-egg situation.  Granted, the birth of the wolves awakened the Starks -- but what caused the birth of the wolves in just that spot?  There's some magical impetus behind the newfound migration and fertility of the direwolf to the South of the Wall.

Symbolically, being licked is a baptism; partaking of the flesh and blood while skinchanging in wolf form is akin to the Holy Communion.  GRRM, having a Catholic background, is using a lot of these Catholic motifs.

 

With all due respect, I think you're making a bit much of this particular analogy.

A pup's tongue licking a boy's face and someone taking communion are quite different things. Now if you told me that Bran's Green Ceremony is an analogy for First Communion, I would agree. 

And, though it is but my interpretation, I do think we have clues that demonstrate that the children of Winterfell are acting like their wolf pups even before they find them and come into contact with their saliva.  

 

With your earlier point, regarding the chicken and the egg, I also disagree. 

Rather than be something special, I think direwolves in the realm are a pretty normal thing. I mean, they are all over Winterfell's banners. 

The men in Bran I are in varying states of shock only because it had been so very long since a direwolf had been sighted south of the Wall. But that is only a 200 year old reality in a community that goes back unto the Age of Heroes. And yes, LOL, I have an essay on that very topic, here:

http://www.thelasthearth.com/thread/272/song-vaginal-warg-blocking

But, leaving that aside, 200 years is but a drop in the bucket of Stark history. Thus rather than be a significant for its novelty, I see the direwolf as significant for its antiquity.

200 years/10,000 years = 0.02

Thus, direwolves have been absent from Winterfell for but two-hundreths of one percent of Winterfell's history.

If we prefer more conservative dating, say, 200/6,000, that yields but three-hundredths of one percent of Winterfell's history. 

This coloring (heh) drastically alters how I account for the direwolf. Rather than be "a freak," it is quite normal.  (Hence Jon's reaction to it.... his eyes alone are open, while the others are still blind.) Rather than be the result of some arcane magics, direwolf pups are par for the course when riding around the north.

Theon's is the pitfall of many -- they see what they want to see, from their own miniscule perspective. From a historical perspective, wargs are nothing new. Direwolves are still a known species, far from extinct. Even dragons are quite ordinary in the world that Martin wrote. Their novelty is quite recent. 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

It's not that long before the comet or the birth of Dany's dragons.  There is a wave of magic occurring, all connected -- have you ever watched a good surfer at the beach?  He or she will catch the wave as it breaks and keep riding it through the lip of the tunnel as it forms-- if they don't keep up with it, they're dumped by the force of the water...Anyway, it doesn't really matter which part of the wave comes before or after chronologically; it's all one wave, born of the same generative force translated through the water.  Technically, however, you're correct -- the wolves were seen before the comet.  However, just because it wasn't seen in the sky yet, doesn't mean the comet wasn't already getting closer to earth and its approach felt...the plot thickens...

 

I myself have surfed, actually. Though I would not call myself "a good surfer." LOL 

Rather than keep up with the waves, we let them catch us. Once caught, we have to let go, and go where they will. On the water, it is difficult to mark the beginning or end of any wave. It is all quite endless and cyclical, and one leads to the next. But I get what you mean. 

Rather than be seen as a prophetic tsunami, destined to return, I think direwolves (for House Stark, anyway) should be seen as the ocean itself... Constant. Endless. A source of power. 

Rather than be gone, some soul-less builder simply erected a 300ft tall levee. 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

This whole section of yours is brilliantly argued and substantiated.  I think the execution scene mirrors Bran's destiny -- in which death and rebirth occur together.  He is the son of Winterfell destined to save the world by sacrificing himself, whereby dawn will break...As @evita mgfs once highlighted, morning 'breaks' like Bran the 'broken' boy; so another way of saying Dawn breaks is that Bran breaks and rises in one...therefore, Bran is the Dawn!

 

Thanks. I do try.  

But Bran is Summer. 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Love it.  Especially the last sentence!

 

Thanks again. It fits, right? 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm not sold on this being the ultimate reason behind the upsurge in magic.  I think there's something larger to it, which caused the wolves to appear in the first place.

 

No upsurge. Simply a return to normal. 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think they're connected - just opposite faces of the same coin.  Comets are fiery ice creatures by the way -- not that unlike direwolves, wouldn't you say...

 

I disagree. Direwolves are not made of ice (the Others), or fire (dragons).

Unlike things made of fire and ice, direwolves are organic. Rather than require blood sacrifices or spells to hold them together, to make some puppies all direwolves require is good ole fashioned doggystyle.  

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Quent?  

 

Quentyn Martell.

Made the mistake of thinking that the wave of magic was his, too.  

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I love the poetry of it @Voice -- but I still don't understand what you mean!  Please don't refer me to an essay, just sum it up...what do you mean by 'icy web' and 'the Needle pointing to it'?

 

But... but... but my essay!? 

LOL. As it happens, pretty much every link in my signature (Rhaegar is the exception) leads to topics that explain my meaning, and there are many angles that should be considered. But, I'll paraphrase.  

Remember that curtain of light? 

Well, it is caused by "solar wind." Star wind. This should remind us of the Winds of Winter. Scientifically speaking, these "solar winds" are electromagnetically charged particles from the stars. It's a very real power, with very real effects. The auroras around our northern and southern poles are but a few. But anyway, I digress...

Behind a curtain made from Star Wind (Grey Wind?) Bran sees something that makes him cry out, afraid, to the point that tears burn upon his (very cold) cheeks.

Well, Winter is coming = Star Wind is coming. 

And as this wind blows, the reach of the icy tundra extends southward, emanating from the north like a giant web made of ice. 

Hard to imagine in today's changing climate LOL, but we used to have an ice cap that reached southward every year. Now it seems to only shrink. The dragons won.  But in asoiaf, Bran sees a very healthy northern ice cap. 

Mayhaps, too healthy. 

The Others ride these winds. And if they do not ride upon them with actual Ice Spiders, their winter at least grips the planet like a spider made of ice. 

The heart of that spider, is my Heart of Winter. (And BC, if you so much as whisper Joseph Conrad, I'm gone. LOL) 

Arya's Needle points to it, as all compass needles do. 

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I do agree, however, that Winter and ice is gathering in force relative to Summer and fire.  However, I still maintain that the heart of ice is fire; and vice versa -- so fire is involved in the North's awakening, however counterintuitive and paradoxical that may seem.  Winterfell is built on a fiery fissure, which sustains it, after all.  In fact, the crypts and the godswood -- the very heart of the magic -- are warmer than their surroundings, like a forge of sorts.

 

I believe I was the first person on the forums to coin usage of the term "cold forge" in relation to this. I see it as a closed thermodynamic system. I would explain in detail, but I already have in this essay. LOL

 

13 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

It isn't mysterious, though--if a person is so inclined, they can speculate that Anakin was created or w/e, but that's not actually important. Midichlorians and Darth Plagueis are perfect examples of overexplaining, of unnecessary, retroactive world building.

When I talked about "notable Skywalkers," I wasn't talking about the force, I was talking about the serendipity of Luke rescuing his own sister, or both of them unknowingly opposing their own father, all within a 'world' that contains trillions of people. Again, if one is so inclined, they can invent in-world mechanics for why this is the case ("it's the will of the force!"), but the real reason is because it isn't a hard sci-fi story, it's a fairy tale set in space, a fairy tale significantly focused on a particular family and their interpersonal drama.
___

To cut off the tangent, the point I was making as relates to ASOIAF is that, in part, the Starks have been written as extraordinary because the story is more "about" House Stark than it's about, say, House Umber, or House Mormont, or House Karstark, or any number of other FM families that might theoretically pop out multiple skinchangers.

This is why I call it a storytelling conceit. Sure, there might be in-world reasons for so many wargs, but part of it is that House Stark is meant to be inherently more interesting and more important to the reader. They are at the center of the northern story.

It was asserted that GRRM would write a plausible mechanic for why House Stark is beating those 1-in-1000 odds, but I disagree with that premise; I believe that most readers and show watchers easily accept the scene with the dirwolf mother, and its immediate aftermath, as something that was "meant to be"--it's a part of the fairy tale. GRRM isn't inserting characters into a built world, he's building a world around his characters when whim and plot demand that he do so.

To use a related example, GRRM has drawn a line in the sand and said he's never going to explain what happened in Mirri's tent, even though there's plenty of fodder for theories on magic mechanics there--similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if we never get anything explicit about whether the direwolf mother was sent, or who sent her, or whether Gared has any relationship to those events.

 

I agree that Martin will never likely explain the deets surrounding the dead mother wolf. 

 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

The World book is a dubious source of information in general, but it does provide at least a mythological hint of the ancient point at which skinchanging came into the Stark line:

Since the Starks were the conquerors, this seems very suggestive.

I should add the canon, and I think the World book too, are much more accurate about the term "warg" than the show or the forums.  

The show and the forums use it to mean skinchanging in general, as both a noun and a verb.  (The show actually has Meera shrieking "Warg into Hodor!!" when Bloodraven's cave is invaded.)

But the canon and the World book use it only as a noun, and only to mean someone who has the power of skinchanging wolves.  So the Warg King was someone very skilled at skinchanging wolves, and if his daughters inherited the talent, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I can only agree regarding the noun vs verb usage of "warg" and "greenseer." Correct me if I am wrong JNR, but I do believe that GRRM adheres to this usage in SSMs as well.

Rather than be a magical act in and of itself, 'warg' and 'skinchanger' are simply augmented states of being, maaan. LOL 

 

Regarding the Warg King, a quote of Semi-Ranon:

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.  

 

Considering that the Kings of Winter always had direwolf companions sculpted along with their mortal remains, I think it unlikely that the earliest of them were not wargs. And, I think it is this very strength that enabled them to defeat the ranonical Warg King. 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I doubt House Blackwood used the term "wolf blood", but I would venture to guess that they nonethless had a term for such inclinations. 

"Raven-Blood" mayhaps?  

I think they call it having a touch or more of the 'bloody beak'! 

1 hour ago, Voice said:

The crypts are but open spaces between the roots of Winterfell's heart tree

Yes, that's exactly how I think about it.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

A pup's tongue licking a boy's face and someone taking communion are quite different things. Now if you told me that Bran's Green Ceremony is an analogy for First Communion, I would agree. 

I didn't say the licking was communion; I said the licking of the face was like a baptism -- where the water is put over the head (particularly over the forehead, which as it so happens is the location of the 'third eye').

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran touched his forehead, between his eyes. The place where the crow had pecked him was still burning, but there was nothing there, no blood, no wound. He felt weak and dizzy. He tried to get out of bed, but nothing happened.

And then there was movement beside the bed, and something landed lightly on his legs. He felt nothing. A pair of yellow eyes looked into his own, shining like the sun. The window was open and it was cold in the room, but the warmth that came off the wolf enfolded him like a hot bath. His pup, Bran realized … or was it? He was so big now. He reached out to pet him, his hand trembling like a leaf.

When his brother Robb burst into the room, breathless from his dash up the tower steps, the direwolf was licking Bran's face. Bran looked up calmly. "His name is Summer," he said.

This is a baptism -- both of Summer who is 'christened' with his name for the first time, just as in a baptism; as well as of Bran, since baptism signifies a rebirth -- and here Bran is coming back to life, emerging from his coma, after having had his third eye opened.

I agree about the weirwood paste being like Communion, but so are all the other instances of Bran partaking either symbolically, literally or via 'warging' in flesh and blood -- which it's implied augments his powers.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

But, leaving that aside, 200 years is but a drop in the bucket of Stark history. Thus rather than be a significant for its novelty, I see the direwolf as significant for its antiquity.

200 years/10,000 years = 0.02

Thus, direwolves have been absent from Winterfell for but two-hundreths of one percent of Winterfell's history.

If we prefer more conservative dating, say, 200/6,000, that yields but three-hundredths of one percent of Winterfell's history. 

I hope you're applying this aptitude for mathematics and particularly statistics in your 'real' life -- very impressive!

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I myself have surfed, actually. Though I would not call myself "a good surfer." LOL 

Rather than keep up with the waves, we let them catch us. Once caught, we have to let go, and go where they will. On the water, it is difficult to mark the beginning or end of any wave. It is all quite endless and cyclical, and one leads to the next. But I get what you mean. 

Rather than be seen as a prophetic tsunami, destined to return, I think direwolves (for House Stark, anyway) should be seen as the ocean itself... Constant. Endless. A source of power. 

Ooh, I like that description.  I myself have never surfed -- though enjoy the meditation of watching the surfers (I do simply adore the sea), as well as the relative security of the virtual 'shark net' a line of surfers, clad like seals in their slick black wetsuits,  represents in front of me when I dip into the water (evil thoughts I entertain, I know)!

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Quentyn Martell.

Made the mistake of thinking that the wave of magic was his, too.  

Yeah, to continue our surfing analogy, he was like a novice thinking he could casually hop on a board and conquer the Banzai pipeline!

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Thanks. I do try.  

But Bran is Summer. 

Yes, indeed -- the paradox is that Summer has to die in order for Summer to come again!

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Theon's is the pitfall of many -- they see what they want to see, from their own miniscule perspective.

I hope you're not implying I have a 'miniscule perspective'..!!!

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I disagree. Direwolves are not made of ice (the Others), or fire (dragons).

Unlike things made of fire and ice, direwolves are organic. Rather than require blood sacrifices or spells to hold them together, to make some puppies all direwolves require is good ole fashioned doggystyle.  

LOL

1 hour ago, Voice said:

But... but... but my essay!? 

Which one of your essays -- if I have to read only one -- would you say is your best?  I promise to read it this time!  

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Remember that curtain of light? 

Well, it is caused by "solar wind." Star wind. This should remind us of the Winds of Winter. Scientifically speaking, these "solar winds" are electromagnetically charged particles from the stars. It's a very real power, with very real effects. The auroras around our northern and southern poles are but a few. But anyway, I digress...

Behind a curtain made from Star Wind (Grey Wind?) Bran sees something that makes him cry out, afraid, to the point that tears burn upon his (very cold) cheeks.

Well, Winter is coming = Star Wind is coming. 

And as this wind blows, the reach of the icy tundra extends southward, emanating from the north like a giant web made of ice. 

How is the polar cap contingent on the earth's magnetic field?

Quote

Hard to imagine in today's changing climate LOL, but we used to have an ice cap that reached southward every year. Now it seems to only shrink. The dragons won.  But in asoiaf, Bran sees a very healthy northern ice cap. 

Mayhaps, too healthy. 

The Others ride these winds. And if they do not ride upon them with actual Ice Spiders, their winter at least grips the planet like a spider made of ice. 

Very nice analogy!  Still, it's interesting that you're suggesting Winter (ice) is spread by something solar (fire)...

Quote

The heart of that spider, is my Heart of Winter. (And BC, if you so much as whisper Joseph Conrad, I'm gone. LOL) 

Arya's Needle points to it, as all compass needles do. 

Nice touch.  I like it.

1 hour ago, Voice said:

I believe I was the first person on the forums to coin usage of the term "cold forge" in relation to this. I see it as a closed thermodynamic system. I would explain in detail, but I already have in this essay. LOL

I still don't understand what you mean.  How does the 'cold fusion' analogy relate to the underground tectonic/volcanic system at Winterfell?  

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Interestingly though, the nearest thing we have had to an explanation is Bloodraven's talking with Bran and explaining how he has watched him being born, growing up and falling and how he came to him in dreams etc. but never at any point does he say anything about sending the wolves.

This raises the one scenario where I believe it may be important for Martin to revisit the mother direwolf: if she was sent, but the 'sender' was not Bloodraven.

While I don't think it's a likely scenario, I do wonder whether or not the Others (or whatever controls them) may have sought to reawaken House Stark's sorcery independently of BR and the CotF, even though it's BR who ultimately collected Bran--in particular, I think this could be important if the white walkers owe primary allegiance to the Kings of Winter, rather than the CotF or the weirwood.

I'm being mindful here of the picture created by the Kings of Winter chapter in the WB, and other context clues in the story, which suggest a period where House Stark were aggressive expansionists, even slaughtering CotF if the Warg King reference is to be believed. The latter story, in particular, might suggest that House Stark were not always diligent Pact Keepers when they were pursuing their ambitions to be the Kings of the North.

[Voice]

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think they call it having a touch or more of the 'bloody beak'! 

LOL! 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, that's exactly how I think about it.

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I didn't say the licking was communion; I said the licking of the face was like a baptism -- where the water is put over the head (particularly over the forehead, which as it so happens is the location of the 'third eye').

This is a baptism -- both of Summer who is 'christened' with his name for the first time, just as in a baptism; as well as of Bran, since baptism signifies a rebirth -- and here Bran is coming back to life, emerging from his coma, after having had his third eye opened.

I agree about the weirwood paste being like Communion, but so are all the other instances of Bran partaking either symbolically, literally or via 'warging' in flesh and blood -- which it's implied augments his powers.

 

My bad. I read that part too quickly I think. I do agree that face-licking and bed-panting are ways in which Summer bonds with Bran, but I'm hesitant to name it baptism either. 

Don't get me wrong, I still see those as quite meaningful and extraordinary steps in the relationship-process. But I think the actual warg-bond is occurring on a more telepathic level, one that is not dependent upon saliva or breath. 

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I hope you're applying this aptitude for mathematics and particularly statistics in your 'real' life -- very impressive!

 

LOL! Thanks.   Many moons ago I was a physics major, and quite interested in math. Not so much these days. I make my living parsing language.  

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Ooh, I like that description.  I myself have never surfed -- though enjoy the meditation of watching the surfers (I do simply adore the sea), as well as the relative security of the virtual 'shark net' a line of surfers, clad like seals in their slick black wetsuits,  represents in front of me when I dip into the water (evil thoughts I entertain, I know)!

 

Not evil at all. Sharks gotta eat too.  

Speaking of seals, you might like this glimpse into the intimate life of the Night's King:

http://thelasthearth.com/post/50370

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yeah, to continue our surfing analogy, he was like a novice thinking he could casually hop on a board and conquer the Banzai pipeline!

 

Word. And that dude wiped out big time. 

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, indeed -- the paradox is that Summer has to die in order for Summer to come again!

 

Yeah, I can't help but think Summer is a goner.  

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I hope you're not implying I have a 'miniscule perspective'..!!!

 

Not at all! Though I suppose that could be said of frequenters of a certain thread.  

I was talking about Theon representing the narcissism of man. They see what they want to see, what they expect to see, from the miniscule lens of their own life. This leads to such "wonders" as the Sealord's Cat, which was, of course, just a beat up old tomcat. 

Contrast Theon's narcissim with Bloodraven's perspective. Or the perspective of the weirwoods themselves. 

From the perspective of such an immense wealth of knowledge, a few direwolf puppies next to a dead mother are far from spectacular. And that some Winterfell children are connected to them is even less so, I think. Such is to be expected in the north. 

The bonds themselves are quite important however, and I think that Bran (Bran = Love) is the greenseer candidate he is due to his openness to such bonds. 

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Which one of your essays -- if I have to read only one -- would you say is your best?  I promise to read it this time!  

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

How is the polar cap contingent on the earth's magnetic field?

 

Ah, I can answer each of these questions with the same link:

http://thelasthearth.com/thread/825/weirwood-ghost

 

The discussion on magnetic fields comes later, in conversation with @LmL (beginning on page 5, link) and is brought up briefly in conversation with @MaesterSam (page 20, link), but the OP is what it's all about in terms of the origin of the Long Night, and the reason Jon Snow is the man for the job this time around (link). 

 

If we are talking about real-world physics though, the polar cap is not contingent on the earth's magnetic field...

but...

the Earth's magnetic field is contingent upon the polar ice cap. It is an interesting bit of physics. And, as it happens, one that led to my Weirwood Ghost theory. In short, as the polar ice caps grow, the earth's magnetic field grows stronger due to a slight acceleration of the earth's rotation. 

Before you know it, that curtain of light is no longer north and north and north... it's in your backyard, illuminating a horde of ice spiders. 

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Very nice analogy!  Still, it's interesting that you're suggesting Winter (ice) is spread by something solar (fire)...

 

Indeed. But Martin's brand of Star Wind is quite cold. It is a force (imo) that can only exist in fantasy. An anti-fire. 

 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Nice touch.  I like it.

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I still don't understand what you mean.  How does the 'cold fusion' analogy relate to the underground tectonic/volcanic system at Winterfell?  

 

The tectonic/volcanic system beneath Winterfell (if it truly exists) is not alone. Alongside that fiery forge, there is one that is cold. 

It is this latter one that I believe is responsible for Winterfell's cold streak (and the weather that now seems to be emanating from the castle). The former, is responsible for its hot streak, and without it, the Last Hero (Brandon the Builder) would have found a frozen weirwood, instead of the cotf. 

What makes Winterfell interesting, imo, is that it embodies both ice and fire on its own. This is evident in those springs -- some are cold, some are hot. 

[Brad Stark]

Regarding the comment that only some magic is working again, the glass candles have started again, and I don't see any tie to the North with them.  I also wonder about "the trees have eyes again", I think Qhorin Halfhand said that.  Whatever it means, Qhorin is at least familiar with the trees having eyes previously, which means it was either in his lifetime or recently enough he'd know about it.  Bloodraven has been around a lot longer than Qhorin, so I wonder who's eyes he is referring to. 

[Brad Stark]

Regarding the wolf blood, I think it is a good guess that this is connected to the blood that makes Bran a greenseer and the Starks being Wargs.  But everyone else seems to assume it as fact, these could be 2 separate things.

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/5/2017 at 11:36 PM, Black Crow said:

They were born with the potential to be wargs by blood but even then that had to be triggered by sending each of them a direwolf.

Rickon was later visited by his dead father, which may be a green dream, but a clear distinction is drawn between wargs, greendreamers and greenseers. Bran is becoming a greenseer because he has been taken north and fed the paste. Yes he has the wolf blood, and he has the wolf and he has vulnerability but he doesn't have the red or the green eyes. He was born with the potential to become a greenseer but that's not the same thing at all as there being a whole family of greenseers and its also a managed process - presumably because he's human.

Indeed we could well question whether any humans are born as wargs by blood - Varamyr commented that none of his many bastards had the gift - or whether its an external process triggered by the beast and in the case of Bryn and now Bran, managed externally.

Nah BC, Bran is training to use what is already there.Way before Bran set out on his quest across The Wall he skinchanging and having green dreams.Him eating the paste had to do with him being married to the trees.

On 1/6/2017 at 1:09 AM, Voice said:

 

No it's strange.

If we look at all that Bloodraven said, then yes, 6 wargs in a single family is quite unique. I did the math at the Hearth recently:

 

In asoiaf, weirwood influences seem far less widespread, far more subtle, and far more selective. 

Rather than inhabit the minds of everyone in proximity, a weirwood must be wed by one with the gift. And one with the gift is incredibly rare. 
 

 

That provides us with some easy math. 

Skinchanger:Population
1:1000

= 0.1% of men are skinchangers. 

Greenseer:Skinchanger-Population
1:1000

= 0.1% of skinchangers are greenseers.

Thus, if we apply these porportions to how many men can be greenseers, we get:

Greenseer:Population
1:1,000,000

= 0.0001 % of men are greenseers.

That's one ten-thousanth of one percent of the population who are greenseers.

[side note: this ratio may mean that the population of Westeros is between 1 and 2 million people, as it currently yields between 1 and 2 greenseers] 

So why did I do all this math? In ASTNKM, every clan has its "Talker" and every clan numbers 20-30, half of which are adults and half of which are children. Even if we include the children, that means 3.33% to 5% of Jaenshi are Talkers. That is a far more potent ratio of influence than we see in asoiaf, except....

We have a GINORMOUS concentration of this influence in the current generation of youngsters from Winterfell. 6/6 are wargs, to varying degrees. Of the six, at least one is a bona fide greenseer. That's pretty damned impressive. 

Considering only two Starks in the previous generation were even said to have "wolf-blood" then that certainy seems to suggest something occurred in the current generation to increase this concentration. 

It seems as though 100% of the Kings of Winter were also wargs, unless people were lying when scuplting all those dead Starks. I don't think they were... at least, not until 200 years ago. 

So, crackpot alert, I'm thinking Starks once had a far greater concentration of this influence than other First Men families. I have a hunch that their Godswood was always and ever-inhabited by a Stark Greenseer. And I think that this is what the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mantra is all about. 

To crack the pot further, I think Lyanna was the last Stark with the gift in her blood, and that it was incredibly strong. (See A Song for Lya)

I don't think she lived long enough to take root beneath WF's godswood, but I do think she was able to send the kids those direwolf pups. (I believe the dead mother wolf was hers, in spirit, if not in life.) 

And, just to make sure this pot is thoroughly broken, I believe it is Lyanna who is beckoning Jon deeper and deeper into crypts in his dreams...

Not the weirnet. Not the Others. Not the cotf. It's his mom. 

I have offered the alternative crackpot before that Lyanna is, like Bloodraven, residing in the roots of WF's heart tree... but I don't want to see her like that. So I've whittled this crackpot down to the essentials:  Lyanna's consciousness is in WF's heart tree, along with all those buried in WF's sidhe cave/cotf hollow crypts. 



Read more: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1195/1000-worlds-times-never-man?page=2#ixzz4UyF092Jo

I don't doubt your math VOTM imo such a thing cannot be applied specific when the speakers in general is saying greensers are rare. This where i think the connotation of Bloodraven's word's may be going unnoticed .IMO the narrative answers which is basically "greenseers are rare,there are now 5 greenseers and they are "unprotected" we need us to grab us some." 

Consider this:

No, only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world"

IMO it is right there plain.All greenseers were Wargs and seers and there is also a hierarchy among greenseers. If you were the greatest of the greenseers you were the ones that could( its not a necessity to you being a greenseers) skinchange any beast and see through the weirwoods.If you were least among them ehhhh you probably aren't so varied in your hosts.

All this to say the numbers are relative to the narrative and so ,is Bloodraven's words about the rarity of Wargs one meant to direct us to the numbers of the improbability? Or one meant to show what i posted to Black Crow? Magic is reaching it's zenith and there's a concentration of power.Meaning where there may have few,there's now a handful in one corner pocket what would the powers in the know do to snag one?Its the Fibonacci sequence man.

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just an irreverent point which I can't resist.

We've seen that Bran required the weirwood paste [with our without added blood] to begin the induction process as a greenseer.

To become wargs did they need to be licked by their direwolves, ie; did the induction require doggy saliva? 

I don't agree with this.The paste was just to bind him to the trees.He was already a greenseer. They just snagged themselves one to put where they wanted the Weirwoods. Someone else may snag another any marry him of her to ice or fire etc.

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

From Arya III, SoS:

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "greendream" because Winterfell has already already been burned at this point.

But this couldn't be from Nymeria's eyes either, right? Could Nymeria have gone all the way to Winterfell since we see her attack some of the Bloody Mummers after Arya escapes from Harrenhal? 

Could it be foreshadowing of something else? 

I think this may qualify.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This raises the one scenario where I believe it may be important for Martin to revisit the mother direwolf: if she was sent, but the 'sender' was not Bloodraven.

While I don't think it's a likely scenario, I do wonder whether or not the Others (or whatever controls them) may have sought to reawaken House Stark's sorcery independently of BR and the CotF, even though it's BR who ultimately collected Bran--in particular, I think this could be important if the white walkers owe primary allegiance to the Kings of Winter, rather than the CotF or the weirwood.

I'm being mindful here of the picture created by the Kings of Winter chapter in the WB, and other context clues in the story, which suggest a period where House Stark were aggressive expansionists, even slaughtering CotF if the Warg King reference is to be believed. The latter story, in particular, might suggest that House Stark were not always diligent Pact Keepers when they were pursuing their ambitions to be the Kings of the North.

This is one reason why I mentioned it. Aside from Bloodraven's failing to mention such an important action there doesn't appear to be any real connection with the children's operation. Leaf speaks of the direwolves generally as being one of the old races but by the way that she speaks seems to be all that they have in common.

Two thoughts on an alternative and not necessarily contradictory:

1. As has been pointed out before there were six white shadows in the prologue and then six pups

2. Given the undoubted long connection with the Starks, the wolves might justifiably be regarded as their protectors. We've spoken recently of how Bran has been "taken" from Winterfell by the Three-Fingered Tree-Huggers; might his and the other direwolves have been sent by a quite different player to protect the children of Winterfell from the children of the forest? 

[Voice]

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't doubt your math VOTM imo such a thing cannot be applied specific when the speakers in general is saying greensers are rare. This where i think the connotation of Bloodraven's word's may be going unnoticed .IMO the narrative answers which is basically "greenseers are rare,there are now 5 greenseers and they are "unprotected" we need us to grab us some." 

Consider this:

No, only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world"

IMO it is right there plain.All greenseers were Wargs and seers and there is also a hierarchy among greenseers. If you were the greatest of the greenseers you were the ones that could( its not a necessity to you being a greenseers) skinchange any beast and see through the weirwoods.If you were least among them ehhhh you probably aren't so varied in your hosts.

All this to say the numbers are relative to the narrative and so ,is Bloodraven's words about the rarity of Wargs one meant to direct us to the numbers of the improbability? Or one meant to show what i posted to Black Crow?

 

Green dreams are one thing, greenseers another. And I see absolutely no reason why we should dismiss BR's ratios. 

Alys Karstark didn't arrive at Castle Black with a direwolf in tow, yet she too shares Stark blood. Not one of V6's offspring had the gift, even though they shared blood with a man who was for all intents and purposes, a Warg King beyond the Wall. 

Wargs are 1:1000. Greenseers are 1:1,000,000. 

Yet Winterfell recently produced 6 wargs and a greenseer. That is a strikingly high percentage when compared to the general population. 

Conclusion? These Starks are not like other men. 

 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Magic is reaching it's zenith and there's a concentration of power.Meaning where there may have few,there's now a handful in one corner pocket what would the powers in the know do to snag one?Its the Fibonacci sequence man.

 

You have a far lower standard for a zenith than I do. And does a Fibonacci sequence even have a zenith?

Rather than see some grand explosion of magic throughout the world, we have three dragons and six wargs from Winterfell. 

Mayhaps an inventory is in order. 

• The Others have returned
• Six Wargs, Winterfell
• 3 dragons
• Glass Candles are burning
• Pyromancer spells are more effective (seems dependent upon dragons)
• Beric/Stoneheart

Aside from the return of the Others, the rest doesn't seem all that impressive compared to the world's history. Six wargs seem like a lot today, but I don't think they would seem all that impressive 300 years ago. Three dragons also seem quite amazing, today, but in the Dance of the Dragons alone, Queen Rhaenyra's forces had fifteen. Glass Candles are supposed to burn, right? Else, why call them candles? Pyromancer spells are supposed to effectively quicken wildfire, right? Else, why have them? 

The only anomaly to me is Beric/Stoneheart. What was intended as a funeral rite effectively revived the corpse.

There is also Coldhands, but I do not think any of us believe his origins are recent.  

So all in all, rather than see some amazing burst of magical influence, this seems more like the world returning to its normal state. And it only seems like a slight return, thus far. There's still a long way to go before magic today might be compared to the magic of yore. 

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

...might his and the other direwolves have been sent by a quite different player to protect the children of Winterfell from the children of the forest? 

This is what I was thinking as well, in terms of alternate ideas. Although the armies of ice and fire seem to be our most overt threats, I do wonder whether or not the 3EC and the CotF are dangerous players--if Dany and the Others eventually collide, it may be that the CotF in their hollow hills could just sit back and wait for humanity to destroy itself. Perhaps someone/something is indeed trying to protect the Starks, but was beaten to the punch in collecting Bran.

It may also be the case that the Others despise their creators for what they've done to them, especially if the Others were initially used as a slave army--it's not entirely clear how much autonomy they would have had during the Age of Heroes, or even now.

[Black Crow]

28 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Green dreams are one thing, greenseers another. And I see absolutely no reason why we should dismiss BR's ratios. 

 

Yuup

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As has been pointed out before there were six white shadows in the prologue and then six pups

There are also six Children of the Forest, whom I think we can map onto each of the Stark children and their direwolves respectively:

Leaf…Bran…Summer

Snowylocks…Jon Snow…Ghost

Coals…Rickon…Shaggy Dog

Black knife…Arya…Nymeria

Ash…Robb…Grey Wind

Scales…Sansa…Lady

1 hour ago, Voice said:

You have a far lower standard for a zenith than I do. 

LOL 

Quote

Rather than see some grand explosion of magic throughout the world...

So all in all, rather than see some amazing burst of magical influence, this seems more like the world returning to its normal state. And it only seems like a slight return, thus far. There's still a long way to go before magic today might be compared to the magic of yore. 

I'm starting to get your point.  The earth is in the process of reclaiming itself -- the antibody hypothesis -- but it's still sick...

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

So, what you're implying is that 'men' are not the only ones who would 'fight and kill' for survival -- the 'wood' itself is fighting for its life.  It's goal: to 'overrun the overrunners,' as it were...but there's still a ways to go.  

Returning to our 'wave analogy', and Quentyn the surfing ingenue:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

Archibald Yronwood grasped the iron doors and pulled them apart. Their rusted hinges let out a pair of screams, for all those who might have slept through the breaking of the lock. A wash of sudden heat assaulted them, heavy with the odors of ash, brimstone, and burnt meat.

It was black beyond the doors, a sullen stygian darkness that seemed alive and threatening, hungry. Quentyn could sense that there was something in that darkness, coiled and waiting. Warrior, grant me courage, he prayed. He did not want to do this, but he saw no other way. Why else would Daenerys have shown me the dragons? She wants me to prove myself to her. Gerris handed him a torch. He stepped through the doors.

You mentioned things 'returning to normal.'  Well, one man's 'normal' is another's 'nightmare'...It's all a matter of perspective.  In the big scheme of things, a wave is but a blip on the radar -- however, if you're in the wave, it's another matter entirely:

 

 

Enough of a 'grand explosion' and 'amazing burst' for you..?!  I trust that met your standards for a 'zenith'!    

That wave is merciless -- impatient to break, with a vicious surgical edge, no room for error -- and utterly magnificent.

We'll chat again, once I get my head around the magnetism...

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

This is what I was thinking as well, in terms of alternate ideas. Although the armies of ice and fire seem to be our most overt threats, I do wonder whether or not the 3EC and the CotF are dangerous players--if Dany and the Others eventually collide, it may be that the CotF in their hollow hills could just sit back and wait for humanity to destroy itself. Perhaps someone/something is indeed trying to protect the Starks, but was beaten to the punch in collecting Bran.

It may also be the case that the Others despise their creators for what they've done to them, especially if the Others were initially used as a slave army--it's not entirely clear how much autonomy they would have had during the Age of Heroes, or even now.

I'm not entirely convinced that there are armies of Ice and Fire per se; rather that there may be parties drawing on those powers, by which I mean that whilst the Others are obviously aligned with Ice they may not exclusive in this alignment. If we look at the other side we have some dragons and we have the worshippers of R'hllor. Both are Fire but not allied - hence the suggestion that the direwolves and the tree-huggers may not be singing off the same hymn sheet.

As to your second paragraph, I think that we're broadly agreed, but I'm more inclined to suspect that there's a betrayal in there; that the earliest of the white shadows/walkers were men who were allied to the tree-huggers, but cast aside when they were no longer needed, and that like the Golden Company what they really want is not to kill all living things [that's the wights - who hate the living because they are the dead] but to regain what was once theirs.

[LynnS]

23 hours ago, Voice said:

I believe I was the first person on the forums to coin usage of the term "cold forge" in relation to this. I see it as a closed thermodynamic system. I would explain in detail, but I already have in this essay. LOL

The ideas in this essay are really fascinating and I appreciate the discussion on the nature of miasma (recalling the Othor has quite a horrible smell to him when he's sliced open).  I wondered about cold plasma off and on and solidified CO2.   Not to mention the arc of blue light that plays over the WW's sword in the Prologue of GoT.  

I'm still not really clear what it is you think Bran saw in the heart of darkness besides the ice cap. In a sense, when Bran passes through the curtain of light; this is akin to piercing the veil, or touching the light; something that may be in Dany's program of events as well.  

The idea that that dead direwolf in the prologue represents Lyanna in her second life is also interesting.  Killed by the stag, or dead as a consequence of pursuing/associating with the stag?     That Ghost is the only pup with it's eyes open suggests he (Jon) is the first born as well.

Also the mention of the horrors that the CotF first experience:  the sword, shield and horse reminds me very much that this is also what Ned faced at the ToJ represented by the three KG... the sword, shield and horse of Aerys Targaryen.

A very interesting read, thank you.

[ravenous reader]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm still not really clear what it is you think Bran saw in the heart of darkness besides the ice cap. In a sense, when Bran passes through the curtain of light; this is akin to piercing the veil, or touching the light; something that may be in Dany's program of events as well.  

The exact word used is that Bran went 'beyond' the curtain.  He touched the light -- true -- but then he pierced through the veil; and what lies beyond the aurora borealis (=the curtain of dancing light at the end of the world)-- the limit of our atmosphere.  That means, piercing through the atmosphere -- you get to space.  He saw something coming for us in space -- and I do believe it's a comet heading our way, an icy body of a kind mirroring those 'other' icy bodies on the ground.  'Now you know why you must live...why you must fly...fly or die.'  Because the only way to stop one flying body is to get up there yourself and intercept it -- by flying to meet it.  

[Black Crow]

Still think he simply passed through the veil to see the future and that it was the future that caused him to cry out in terror