Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

I wonder if the weirwoodnet just smells like that. It could be slightly less literal - like Bran's powers come form the darkness, whether in the crypts or in BR's cave, it's juts kind of a theme with him - the underground sun, the sun of winter in the cave of night where the sun goes to hide, that sort of thing. Thus when he appears with his greenseer abilities, that's what he smells like, perhaps. We've never had the crypts or BR's cave described that way - the cold smell of death. The crypts are noted to be warmer than outside when the snow falls, and I can't recall any comments about a death stink there. I think Bran's cold winter smell is more symbolic.

Here's a thought.  Craster smells cold, and he is also said to be marked with a curse. He is in some sort of relationship with the Others where they tolerate his existence and he gives them his male children to be made into Others.  Could it be that Bran in the future will be marked or cursed in some way connecting him to the Others, and it is this smell which is coming along with his consciousness? 

Tv Show spoiler Season 6:

 

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Obviously the show is greatly simplifying all elements of magic, but we have seen the idea of the NK marking Bran inside of a dream, and waking Bran then bears any icy mark which allows the NK to break the wards of BR's cave. It is possible that something vaguely similar could happen, marking Bran with that cold dead smell. There is a castle on the Wall called Icemark, so perhaps George does have the general concept in mind.   

 

Now there's an interesting idea, and once again we come to the thought that Bran has been "taken"

[LmL]

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

Craster's wife on the left does imply it.

However, she has no demonstrable authority to make such remarks, any more than an everyday citizen of Westeros has to say that the world is flat.  You can imagine she has authority, but that's all you have -- your imagination, to justify the premise.

I have imagined nothing. I said she thinks that's what happens, and that she could be wrong. You had said "The existence of such a relationship is also supported by no canonical evidence" and I was showing that according to ASOS, you are incorrect. 

Now if we were to speculate about the level of knowledge one of the older of Craster's wives might have of what Craster does with his sons, she is pretty well positioned to know. 

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

The wives also state categorically that Craster sacrifices sheep to the Others.

What, pray tell, do you make of the wives' expertise on the Others, based on that? 

I'm not sure Craster's sacrifice of sheep has any bearing on the level of authority of Craster's wives on the topic of the Others..

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

I imagine you're going to build a case that they the wives have some personal knowledge that these sheep are being transformed into ice demon sheep with blue eyes.  I look forward to reading this case.

Nope, that's not in the cards. 

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

I note additionally that Sam, who hears Craster's wife on the left make this statement, assigns it so little value he doesn't bother to repeat it to Jon, his LC, who has commanded him to learn as much as possible about the Others.  Sam's a bright boy.

That's a good point, regardless of whether Craster's wives are right or wrong. Why didn't Sam mention it?  He should have.  Maybe he figured Jon already knew.  Because back in ACOK...

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

No, we don't.  All we know is that he was constantly "giving his sons to the wood."

...Gilly tells Jon what Craster does with the male children, right after coming from a conversation with Sam, where she has likely told Sam the exact same thing. Which is:

“Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?”
“For the baby, not for me. If it’s a girl, that’s not so bad, she’ll grow a few years and he’ll marry her. But Nella says it’s to be a boy, and she’s had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep’s gone too. Next it will be dogs, till …” She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly. “What gods?” Jon was remembering that they’d seen no boys in Craster’s Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself. “The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”
And suddenly Jon was back in the Lord Commander’s Tower again. A severed hand was climbing his calf and when he pried it off with the point of his longsword, it lay writhing, fingers opening and closing. The dead man rose to his feet, blue eyes shining in that gashed and swollen face. Ropes of torn flesh hung from the great wound in his belly, yet there was no blood. “What color are their eyes?” he asked her.
“Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.” She has seen them , he thought. Craster lied. “Will you take me? Just so far as the Wall—” “We do not ride for the Wall. We ride north, after Mance Rayder and these Others, these white shadows and their wights. We seek them, Gilly. Your babe would not be safe with us.”
 

Again, Gilly and all the other women could be wrong - though we have been given no suggestions or clues to think they are that I am aware of - but they very clearly believe that Craster gives his sons to the cold gods, the white shadows who are definitely the Others. As spelled out in the other scene, they believe this is for the purpose of turning the sons into Others. Gilly claims ot have seen the white shadows - the Others - and that means that they would have been near Craster's Keep. Again, you can suppose Gilly is lying, but Jon believes her because she knows what they look like. She is saying they come more often, and that Craster gives them his male babies.  

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

Now that's a thing the rangers all knew was happening.  All of them.  But did they know the Others had anything to do with it? 

They certainly did not, because Ned doesn't believe the Others even exist in AGOT, and yet his brother Benjen... someone with whom Ned is in frequent communication... was First Ranger.  

What's your point? That the NW for the most part doesn't believe in the Others? I don't see how that is particularly relevant, and not all NW are that skeptical anyway.  LC Mormont speaks of feeling the cold winds rising and the trees having eyes again. When he speaks to Jon of craster giving his sons "to the wood," he also describes them as Craster's offerings and says that "the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I." That implies Mormont at least might have a clue about what is going on.  But I don't know what that has to do with Gilly and the rest believing that Craster gives his sons to the Others and that they are transformed into others somehow. 

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

Quite a curious situation, for the Others to have been molesting the free folk for decades... for Craster to have been (as you say) uniquely protecting his family from them with infant sons...

Again, I said that Craster believes this, and that we are given reason to think it is true. Something does have to explain it. Mance speaks of the Others giving them trouble for years, as you alluded to. Yet Craster is untouched.

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

And yet First Ranger Benjen Stark evidently had no idea the Others were anywhere north of the Wall at all, or somehow failed to tell his brother Ned of this interesting development.

We don't know what he suspected at the time he went to go look for the lost rangers, but if you are suggesting it would be impossible for the Others to move through the woods undetected by NW, I disagree strongly - but that is subjective, and does not prove your point.  Gilly claims to have seen them, and even before Waymar got picked off, they had been losing a few rangers in the woods. They knew something was wrong, and that all testifies to the others being active in the woods. 

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

We're given every reason to believe that Craster thinks that, and has told his wives that, but we readers are a great deal better informed than Craster.   

Well -- most of us are.  Some of us think the Long Night was created by a comet smashing into a moon -- even though at the time of the story, there is another Long Night descending on Westeros, and yet a comet has not smashed into a moon at any time in canon. 

You can take your cool guy sunglass off there buddy.  Because according to my book, a new Long Night has not yet begun to fall. 

Fear is for the Long Night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.” “You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously. “The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.
. . . 
Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

None of this has happened yet. The sun's face has not been hidden, and because we know the Others do not appear when the sun is out, we know that hiding the sun is a prerequisite for a full invasion of the others, which has not begun yet. They aren't sweeping over holdfasts - the most they are doing is poking around the woods and picking off a few wildlings and NW brothers. Preparing to invade? Surely. But a new Long Night has not yet begun to fall, because the sun's face has not been hidden. The Long Night wasn't just a snowstorm that hid the sun over Winterfell or even Northern Westeros - it was felt from the river Rhoyne to all the lands of eastern Essos. The entire known world could not see the sun.  THAT is a Long Night, and that has not yet begun. 

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, JNR said:

Craster's wife on the left does imply it.

However, she has no demonstrable authority to make such remarks,

I would suggest that she has more authority to say so than you have to deny it 

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Just wait until WINDS comes out. There's this incredible scene, where Gilly explains the situation to her son Monster:

 

It all makes sense when you look at it right. You gotta, like, stand back from it - you know?

Heh, to be followed by

Quote

Sam stammered, "D-d--don't say that Gilly, h-h-he's no lamb chop"

Yet the empty feeling in Sam's stomach betrayed his words, and loudly demanded a sacrifice of mutton to join with his half-digest meal of lamprey and eel.

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

7 minutes ago, LmL said:

you can suppose Gilly is lying, but Jon believes her because she knows what they look like.

Ah. But how does Jon know what they look like? 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet the empty feeling in Sam's stomach betrayed his words, and loudly demanded a sacrifice of mutton to join with his half-digest meal of lamprey and eel.

 

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Ah. But how does Jon know what they look like? 

Given that he references his close encounter with Othor, I'd say that as a bright lad brought up with a far more detailed knowledge of Westeros' history and lore than we readers have, he knows to associate wights with walkers and to connect them with the eyes blue as stars.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Given that he references his close encounter with Othor, I'd say that as a bright lad brought up with a far more detailed knowledge of Westeros' history and lore than we readers have, he knows to associate wights with walkers

Seems like a good guess. Just leaves Jon seeming rather foolish, if he assumes Gilly's knowledge of their eye color implies a first hand encounter. After all... Othor was no Other.

And actually... this is not strictly true:

18 minutes ago, LmL said:

Gilly claims ot have seen the white shadows - the Others

Gilly doesn't claim to have seen the cold gods herself. She just knows what color their eyes are supposed to be. Like Jon.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Seems like a good guess. Just leaves Jon seeming rather foolish, if he assumes Gilly's knowledge of their eye color implies a first hand encounter. After all... Othor was no Other.

And actually... this is not strictly true:

Gilly doesn't claim to have seen the cold gods herself. She just knows what color their eyes are supposed to be. Like Jon.

Technically, this is true - she says they come around more often, and she knows wha they look like, which Jon takes to mean she has seen them. That is after all the most logical conclusion. 

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Gilly doesn't claim to have seen the cold gods herself. She just knows what color their eyes are supposed to be. Like Jon.

We don't actually know. She tells Jon that Craster gives his sons to the Cold Gods, the ones who come in the night, and Jon then asks about their eyes, to which she answers that they are blue as stars.

We could pretend that she hides herself when they come knocking, or sleeps through it every time and is told about them in the morning, but she answers the question directly and Jon's inference that "she has seen them" is by far the most reasonable interpretation - and how GRRM obviously intends us to interpret it.

[Black Crow]

As this one is moving briskly towards its end, and I'm off to bed, I've opened Heresy 194 with Sly Wren's essay on the Underworld but please feel free to finish the current conversation before migrating to the new thread.

Good night all, and thank you.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

That is after all the most logical conclusion.

Well, Gilly is neither motivated or guided by logic. She's driven by fear and desperation.  

Otherwise she'd have known better than to ask and, as Mormont points out to Jon, she'd have murdered Craster in his sleep with Answered Prayer.

But of course, I've been on the other side of this discussion in the past. So clearly a case can be made either way.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Craster's wife on the left does imply it.

However, she has no demonstrable authority to make such remarks, any more than an everyday citizen of Westeros has to say that the world is flat.  You can imagine she has authority, but that's all you have -- your imagination, to justify the premise.

This seems a rather bizarre criticism. If our basis for discussion is going to be "this character could be incorrect, so lets not discuss the ideas they raise," then we're essentially dismissing all speculative or theoretical discussion, dismissing all discussion of information that we have not personally witnessed through a POV. That's going to make for some awfully dull threads.

"Tyrion is a dwarf."
"Yes, Tyrion is canonically a dwarf. He also served as the temporary Hand of the King in ACOK."
"Agreed. Great discussion!"
_____

In this case, it's not as though LmL just invented an interpretation of the Others out of thin air--the notion that the white walkers might be made from Craster's sons is taken straight from the story.

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Well, Gilly is neither motivated or guided by logic. She's driven by fear. and desperation.  

Otherwise she'd have known better than to ask and, as Mormont points out to Jon, she'd have murdered Craster in his sleep with Answered Prayer.

But of course, I've been on the other side of this discussion in the past. So clearly a case can be made either way.

I was actually saying that Jon's conclusion that Gilly has seen them is the most logical conclusion to take based on her words.   

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I was actually saying that Jon's conclusion that Gilly has seen them is the most logical conclusion to take based on her words.

Oh, well that seems like possibly three different things: 

1. The conclusion drawn by Jon
2. The conclusion that would most logical under the circumstances
3. The conclusion based on Gilly's words alone

And I expect a case could be made that all three of these things are different. Like this:

1. Jon concludes that Gilly has seen wights.
2. The most logical conclusion would be that Gilly is desperate, and is making things up to persuade Jon to help her.
3. But on the basis of Gilly's words alone, one might conclude that Gilly has seen Others.

[LmL]

25 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Oh, well that seems like possibly three different things: 

1. The conclusion drawn by Jon
2. The conclusion that would most logical under the circumstances
3. The conclusion based on Gilly's words alone

And I expect a case could be made that all three of these things are different. Like this:

1. Jon concludes that Gilly has seen wights.
2. The most logical conclusion would be that Gilly is desperate, and is making things up to persuade Jon to help her.
3. But on the basis of Gilly's words alone, one might conclude that Gilly has seen Others.

Actually I think John concludes that she has seen others, not wights. It's confusing because after she says that they have blue star eyes, he has a little mental flashback to fighting the wight in Mormont's chamber. But then he says to Gilly, "We ride north, after Mance Rayder and these Others, these white shadows and their wights. We seek them, Gilly. Your babe would not be safe with us.”

So there John is equating Others and white shadows, meaning that he has taken Gilly's reference to White Shadows to refer to Others.

[LynnS]

 

[Black Crow]

And with that I reckon its time to migrate.