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Its clear that Loras went to an empty Dragon Stone


Jadakiss

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4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Thank you for that quote.  Funnily enough I actually think you focused on the wrong part.  Aurane says that many of the dead are "knights and young lords".  Their bodies would be expected back in KL to be sent to the silent sisters and then sent home.  Nobles get sent home, if not it is considered an insult as we see from Barbery Dustin, and dead bodies are not kept on ships for disease reasons.  

That is exactly the kind of thing I and others have been pointing out would ruin the lie rather quickly.

I highlighted the section of quote because that was the thing that had been hanging me up for five years. GRRM had set up the situation for a peaceful resolution. I was convinced that must have been what happened. However, with the author's acknowledgement that a peaceful solution was possible but not taken, I finally understand that by not taking the peaceful solution, Loras has created problems for the Iron Throne that will be felt later.

The reason that the bones being returned was not particularly convincing to me was when Jaime noted there were plenty of bones and people have no way of knowing what bones they are getting back.

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2 hours ago, bent branch said:

I highlighted the section of quote because that was the thing that had been hanging me up for five years. GRRM had set up the situation for a peaceful resolution. I was convinced that must have been what happened. However, with the author's acknowledgement that a peaceful solution was possible but not taken, I finally understand that by not taking the peaceful solution, Loras has created problems for the Iron Throne that will be felt later.

The reason that the bones being returned was not particularly convincing to me was when Jaime noted there were plenty of bones and people have no way of knowing what bones they are getting back.

Fair enough, I suppose they could have been bones of defenders.

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7 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Thank you for that quote.  Funnily enough I actually think you focused on the wrong part.  Aurane says that many of the dead are "knights and young lords".  Their bodies would be expected back in KL to be sent to the silent sisters and then sent home.  Nobles get sent home, if not it is considered an insult as we see from Barbery Dustin, and dead bodies are not kept on ships for disease reasons.  

That is exactly the kind of thing I and others have been pointing out would ruin the lie rather quickly.

 

Barbrey Dustin is angered over it, but not hte family of the other bodies of nobles that Ned did not bring home. Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, was buried by him at the ToJ, and not brought to Starfall, only his sword Dawn. The Daynes hold Ned Stark in high regard, despite him not returning the body of the last Sword of the Morning. Ethan Glover, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassel and Mark Ryswell were also buried at the ToJ and their bones and bodies not brought home. We don't know the Ryswell sentiments about it. But The Wull is out there in the snow for Ned's girl, and honors Ned Stark by calling him The Ned. The Glovers are all loyal, every one of them. And so were the Cassels: Rodrik and Yori. We have 4 families, north and south, who personally think highly of Ned Stark, and yet they all know he did not bring the bodies of their family home. We don't know what Ryswell, Hightower and Whent think of it. Only one speaks bitter about it, despite Ned's effort to keep Lord Dustin's promise to his wife that the red stallion would return. 

Clearly, we cannot make any generalized statements about the return of the dead to their families, or that it would be considered an insult.

Assuming there are indeed 1000 dead, mostly knights and lords, let's go through the logistics needed. Let us not forget that Dragonstone is an island. There's only one way to get those dead from the island and back home: with ships. So your claim about ships not carrying dead bodies already poses an issue. If they don't take dead bodies per ship to land to be treated by the Silent Sisters (which I indeed completely understand they wouldn't do, because of not wanting to risk disease), then the Silent Sisters would have to be shipped to Dragonstone. So, ships going to and fro with silent sisters and treated bones are required. It is also doubtful that in that time, the living on the island will leave 1000 bodies to desintegrate. They don't want to risk disease either. So, they're going to burn the bodies, like we see the Freys do at the Twins. While the sigils make it easier whose house they're from that requires some sorting out and time. They would do this at least insofar to make a list of the names of the fallen, but not to make separate pyres. So, everyone would go on a big heap and be burned. It's ashes with some tidbits of bones that the families could hope for, who might be anybody's. That's the best they can hope to get back.

Now as for the ships. There is a fleet, but it won't be ferrying dead sons to and fro. They packed up and sail for the Arbor. Aurane has only one ship, Sweet Cersei with which he only seems to have brought his tale, not the 1000 dead. Cersei's new fleet isn't used to get the dead of the island either. It remains in Blackwater Bay for a while and then Aurane sailed of with it. The only ships that would deliver any Silent Sisters to Dragonstone and sail off again with the ashes would be merchant ships, that won't sail to DS before Aurane arrives with his story. It would take weeks if not months before any family in the Westerlands gets a pot with ashes that's supposed to be their son.

And here's what I find so very curious about Aurane's claim of the 1000 dead that are mostly Westerlander knights and lords. Usually, after a battle took place, George is meticulous about dropping some names of the fallen. The only name we ever get is that of Loras. Apparently Swyft isn't mourning a son or brother or cousin. Kevan isn't thinking of a fallen Lannister either, even if it were only one of Lannisport. There do not appear to be any westerland houses in any inheritance crisis either, which you would expect if a "young lord" died. Surely, if 1000 knights and lords of the Westerlands fell, you normally would have some house name dropped, but nope, no Braxes, no Algoods, no Marbrands, no Crakehalls, we hear absolutely nothing on that, which is very odd, because we hear of this or that one died in battle x and battle y all the time. So, either George suddenly has become very lazy about this, which I highly doubt, or Aurane lied. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

So then do the fake assault and let them leave from a backdoor or, I don´t know - just storm them and kill them, like you told you would.

He didn't say he WOULD storm them. That was a conditional speech.

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

If Cersei is so paranoid why even gamble here? Why let that garrison go? Why even strike a bargain with them - they are enemies, serving the man who Loras (after talking to Brienne) might suspect is behind Renly´s murder and is still, at this moment, fighting Tommen and his sister, the queen.  If Loras is afraid to get his own head lopped of them think about what happens if Cersei catch him in a lie and that that garrison is stilll alive or that those wounds doesn´t stop Loras coming back unharmed, which will make Cersei do a closer investigation. And Loras has the forces, forces that are partly Westerlanders - people he might be willing to sacrifice. And people do die in war.

I gave a full explanation on how Cersei would look. It's not just about her being "paranoid", but "unreasonable" and the best thing anyone can do with her and her council is to bypass them, and you can only do that with misinformation.

You ask me "why lie?" and when I give the reasons for that you go "well, why won't they then be good scared soldiers who do want the crazy dillusional regent wants them to do?" Because it's a stupid plan that costs too many lives that are needed someplace else ASAP.

Is there evidence that the Tyrells want Cersei bypassed? Absolutely. Mace makes that very clear in the aDwD epilogue. And any smart young man who was advized to read up on Cole, who once before aimed to make a king in Renly, and who's changed by the white cloak and realizes that Cersei's unreasonable, alienated her own family, and surrounded by an incompetent and weak council will bypass her.

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And Loras doesn´t need troops. Highgarden has troops as it is. He needs Paxter and his fleet (ie NOT troops), something that has already been promised.

If Loras truly believes they don't need "troops", then why did he want his father's army freed from besieging Storm's End? He asked for that first, before he even started about a fleet. So, despite your repeated assertions that Loras doesn't need any troops, Loras thinks he needs fleet AND troops.

 

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Aurane do seen genuine in that scene and acts almost with a bit of shock.

:) Oh, you summer child. 

 

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And don´t forget - such an execution, Cersei can´t do in secret, like Falyse and the Blue Bard. Killing Loras in public for treason must have motivation behind it, and that Cersei doesn´t trust the nights watch is hardly something she can work with. She IS reasonable enough to understand that she need the alliance, what she have been doing far are some skullduggery behind the scenes to weaken them without doing anything officially. At best, she might get him expelled from the Kingsguard or kill him by an "accident".

Cersei will spin it any way she likes - she calls him a traitor for corroborating with Storm and sending him to Stannis and the Night's Watch that voted the son of traitor Ned Stark to LC, or she has him accused for fucking his sister. Despite your claim that she is reasonable enough to understand she needs the alliance, she's plotting to have the litle queen killed for treason and wants Loras dead. Somehow she believes that she can keep Mace Tyrell loyal to the crown, despite having his daughter and son killed and keeping them away from the council. I don't find that reasonable, but dillusional.

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

A conman that always act as a conman is not a successful conman and won´t end up in a position when he can screw you (and if he/she still does then that person really got themselves to blame at least partly). Aurane doesn´t have to change his stripes since he is conning for something else (the fleet). Why taking risks and potentially screw his real con up by acting dishonest in every given situation?

Conmen wear masks: they flatter, they insult, they are shameless, they love risk and they lie, but in such a way that they tell you what you want to hear and you want to believe it, and they do it any chance they get, even when there doesn't seem any material gain for it.

As for the rest: there are plenty of people on this planet that are trustworth (the majority are), and they are my preferred company. It seems a very sensible preference to select the people you confide in and share your personal life with, no?   

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12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Snip  

Ok, I feel that we are going in circles here and get nowhere. Since I more or less think you have decided on this due to ideological ideas about the nature of man and ideas on how to deal with a bad leadership, I will end with this post. 

You are assuming that everyone sane understands how crazy Cersei is and that somehow this mean that everyone by logic should try to avoid working with such an authority and even lie out of principle. This assumption simply doesn´t hold. From the perspective of the soldiers they won´t really care if Cersei is a crazy dillusional regent or not. The nobility always play their game and smallfolk dies, to start separating between good and bad nobles and different causes is not only a task that makes little sense, it is also a pretty moralistic approach that usually make those that do look stupid due to the bias in their system that they fail to take a face value. So it doesn´t matter how stupid the plan is (and I don´t think tbh that storming Dragonstone is that bad of a plan - it is expensive in life certainly, but the throne can afford those solders and solders are there to die if we are going to be honest about te concept of war) soldiers follow their leaders blindly mostly. 

As for Loras and other nobles, you somehow think that her unreasonability means that she should be provoked and lied to instead of followed (she is, regardless of her sanity, the regent for Tommen and should by law be obeyed). Not only is is questionable that everyone is willing to act this defiant, it is also a pretty pissy survival strategy. You don´t mess with the person who is mental and holds a gun to your head. The best way to deal with that kind of person is to do as you are told, especially if said person actually posses some real authority. If Ramsay shows up at my door and want the taxes I owe, I am not going to go defiant om him and lie because I don´t like him and the system he represents - I am going to give him that money because I don´t want my daughters flayed and gang-raped in front of me. And quite frankly, if I choose defiance here - I think I, to a very large part, is responsible for said flaying and gang rape of my daughters just as I think you have yourself to blame if you get shot by an unstable maniac that you refused to work with, but instead lied to. If I choose to draw the lion in its tail - then I suffer the consequences, my consequences. Being a victim doesn´t mean you have a right to act like an idiot. In general, you seem to have some kind of moralistic picture about the struggle to not be forced to follow bad leaders, which makes no sense in a feudal Westeros and that you can never be at fault for lying to someone you consider unstable, which is again not true. 

You understanding of human nature is, quite frankly and in short, flat out wrong and your ideas about conmen is not only completely different from mine, but also very limited. While I agree that your conman might exist, he or she is certainly not the only architype out there and you simply assume that Aurane fits your model - something I very much doubt. Yet I see no way I can convince you of any of this. I feel genuinly sorry for you if this is your perspective on things and I would recommend to you an adaptation to the perspective of relativism, instead of declaring those you disprove of as conmen and psychopaths as a defense mechanism. All this make me certain that this theory about Loras is more wishful thinking than actual text analysis. 

Edit. If you want the analytical term - you seem to be affected by Presentism, which is a Cultural bias.

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@Protagoras Yes we have very different views on conmen and certain personality disordered people, and your views disagree with the experts as well, even denying the gathered evidence on it. We've had a discussion on this in the past. Spare me your pity. I'm not missing out on life, companionship and friendship by avoiding contact with people who show glib charm + lie + flatter or insult + narcissistic behavior + etc. Kindof curious to read the last line of your signature and then you fail to apply it to another poster.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

You are assuming that everyone sane understands how crazy Cersei is and that somehow this mean that everyone by logic should try to avoid working with such an authority and even lie out of principle.

I'm talking about Loras here, not everyone. And no I'm not advocating lying out of principal in general either. You're building this into a straw man. We're talking here about a particular person (Cersei) that wants to see someone else particual (Loras) dead. Now that's a situation, where I can become machiavelistic about lying and pretending and not showing the back of your tongue. Honesty was what got Ned killed after all. If Ned had done an Aurane he would have likely gotten out of it alive with both his daughters. But then we'd love him less perhaps. And yet, even Ned agrees that some lies have honor in them. 

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

From the perspective of the soldiers they won´t really care if Cersei is a crazy dillusional regent or not.

Who here claimed the soldiers believe Cersei is crazy and dillusional? I certainly did not.

I think those Westerlands soldiers aren't dead as Aurane claims them to be, sailing as extra men on Redwyne's fleet and that they won't question any order from Paxter or Loras. They don't know that Cersei is antagonistic and mistrusts Tyrells and their political allies. To them the Tyrells and Lannisters are an alliance, with King Tommen married to Margaery Tyrells, Loras a kingsguard and made commander by Cersei + council, and Paxter before that was also named commander by Cersei + council. They would automatically assume that whatever decision Loras makes is backed by Cersei and council. They simply wouldn't question the orders, let alone know there's a lie out there of them being dead.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

The nobility always play their game and smallfolk dies, to start separating between good and bad nobles and different causes is not only a task that makes little sense, it is also a pretty moralistic approach that usually make those that do look stupid due to the bias in their system that they fail to take a face value.

No idea why you're going on about this. I'm working from a concrete political situation with Loras having goals, Cersei having goals, and Aurane has his own goals (and I do suspect they go beyond 'have my own fleet and now I'm going to be a pirate). We're not discussing who has the moral high ground here. It's a pragmatic analysis of the situation, considering the personalities of all three.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

As for Loras and other nobles, you somehow think that her unreasonability means that she should be provoked and lied to instead of followed (she is, regardless of her sanity, the regent for Tommen and should by law be obeyed). Not only is is questionable that everyone is willing to act this defiant, it is also a pretty pissy survival strategy. You don´t mess with the person who is mental and holds a gun to your head. The best way to deal with that kind of person is to do as you are told, especially if said person actually posses some real authority.

I never said "should". You asked me "why would x lie to Cersei?". I gave you an answer. From a pragmatic POV we have a young man who shows signs of being able to have a great amount of self control in the face of crazy, insulting and wilful unreasonability, while his home and homelands are left out in the cold, AFTER they saved her ass against Stannis. He vowed to protect and obey the king, not the regent. Jaime explained to him that if the king asks the KG to saddle his horse, to do it, but if the king asks to kill his horse to come to him first, or to use their own better judgment.

Now while the crazy person holds a gun to Loras's head, he can also count the rounds already used and concludes she can only shoot blanks (he was somewhat wrong about that). While crazy and unreasonable and having lawful power, her council is filled with weak men, and the Lannisters of comptence have turned their back on her. She's like Caucescu and his wife still ordering people around, while the army leaders are about to turn against them and decide to join the revolution. It's still an undecided situation, where the generals are not yet sure whether everyone with true power is on board, but the signs are there. And indeed her reaction to her arrest in the sept is very reminiscint to that of Caucescu's wife at her trial. So, I disagree that it's a piss poor strategy. In fact Varys says something about power.

 
Quote

 

"Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?"
"It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."
"And yet he is no one," Varys said. "He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel."
"That piece of steel is the power of life and death."
"Just so . . . yet if it is the swordsmen who rule us in truth, why do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father?"

"Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords."

"Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?" Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"
Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"
Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

 

 

In light of this quote in the books, you can keep arguing according to Tyrion's initial reasoning, but then imo you're arguing George's point thought Varys.

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Cersei is powerless or that Loras isn't making any mistakes. But for Loras it's quite possible that while he recognizes that Cersei has personal power within the keep, she has little power beyond that. Kevan, the supposed patriarch of the Lannisters, turned his back on her. Swyft, Rosby and Merryweather are weak men. She insulted the Iron Bank. Jaime and Ilyn Payne (the headsman) and Marbrand (LC of the city's watch) are in the RL. Not sure about the timeline with the sparrows anymore, but at the very least he knows the people love his sister and the sparrows speak ill of the Lannisters. The remaining KG are Blount (a coward), Trant (doesn't care), Kettleback (an unknown).  

Now in light of Varys's riddle consider this recollection of Cersei when Aurane tells her about Loras.

 
Quote

 

"The smallfolk too," her admiral said. "We'll have maidens weeping into their wine all across the realm when Loras dies."
He was not wrong, the queen knew. Three thousand smallfolk had crowded through the Mud Gate to see Ser Loras off the day he sailed, and three of every four were women. The sight had only served to fill her with contempt. She had wanted to scream at them that they were sheep, to tell them that all that they could ever hope to get from Loras Tyrell was a smile and a flower. Instead she had proclaimed him the boldest knight in the Seven Kingdoms, and smiled as Tommen presented him with a jeweled sword to carry into battle. The king had given him a hug as well, which had not been part of Cersei's plans, but it made no matter now. She could afford to be generous. Loras Tyrell was dying.

 

 
Cersei gave Loras power of command, a grand send off, made a favorable declaration, and the child-king gave Loras a jeweled sword. It's pretense for Cersei, and she believes she has all the power and Loras none. But she's wrong. By pretending she aided in making people (armies and people of KL) believe that Loras has power. And in that memory of the send-off we have a child-king, a wine-sodden crazy mother, and a strong man with a sword. And what we are arguing is that Loras, the man with the sword, believed himself powerful enough to do as he pleases at Dragonstone, knowing full well that Cersei would prefer his head over it, if he returned, so he's keeping himself away from KL and has Aurane return with a story to make Cersei believe she has won the game, not just to keep himself safe but his sister too.  
 
That Geoge is indeed putting the whole riddle in practice is evident by the loss of power of the Iron Throne to several characters. We have four characters in the riddle: the king, the priest, the rich man and the swordsman. The crown are a child king + wine sodden mother in aFfC. The priest is the High Sparrow. the rich man is the Iron Bank of Braavos and Gyles Rosby. And then we have several layers of swordsman: headsman Ilyn Payne, LC of the city watch Adam Marbrand, master-at-arms, LC of the KG Jaime, the rest of the KG including Loras, armies, fleets, sellswords (including Bronn). 
 
Cersei arms the priest and he gets quite a lot of swordmen behind him inside the city. Cersei insults the bank and they back Stannis (in a blizzard going hungry at a crofter's village) instead with which he wants to buy, wait for it, sellsworrds. Cersei loses the actual Rosby to the ward of Rosby. The ward may not have it on paper yet, but he's holding the castle and its riches and its harvests, firmly, and the sellsword Bronn does the same thing, falls in line. She has no master-at-arms. Jaime is without a swordhand and gives his sword away to Brienne which ends up in BwB's hands. He took the LC of the Gold Cloaks Marbrand and the headsman Ilyn Payne with him. She gives the only truly good fighter with strategic training, Loras, a sword and command over one fleet and her Westerland armies, and in case you might overlook that hint, George makes it a jeweled sword, and 1000 knights and lords of the westerlands aren't hers to command anymore. The other two are in Dorne, one ends up killed, the other is on some distraction hunt against a knight of the night. Blount is a food taster now. Trant doesn't care one way or another and the Kettleback ends up in a dungeon.
 
Considering the riddle, Cersei has lost all the swordsmen in the course of aFfC and aDwD. George gave hersomething though, something that Varys left out of his riddle: the magician. She has Qyburn and the pyromancers. The first gives her a swordsman, Robert Strong, and the pyromancers can give her another champion with wildfire.
 
As for Aurane. He has even less reason to fear Cersei. He knows how easily she's fooled with flattery and hearing what she wants to hear. He knows the council colleagues she listens to are fools and weak men. And the sole one who's smarter and can reason, Pycelle, and always was a Lannister puppet, she shuts up and doesn't want to listen to. He pretty much has to smile at her, make some derisive remark about a Tyrell or whomever else she hates or despises, shake his silver hair and he gets what he wants from her. 
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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Aurane. He has even less reason to fear Cersei.

Lol, he feared her so much that he made away with the whole fleet :D

- Sorry, couldn't resist to quip in.

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On 1/4/2017 at 5:12 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Serious question... Do you read what other people post?

I'm not arguing that he went to Dragonstone. I was only pointing out the logical reason (you asked for) that George gives us in Feast for IF Loras did go. Then I pointed out to you that Loras volunteered to go, it was not "Cersei's bidding" as you call it. 

 

Makes 0 sense sorry. Not what I said at all. And there is no reason that he would go to dragon stone for her, being that he told her yes is an obvious con. There isn't one benefit dragon stone has to offer the Tyrells

 

Also funny how some people have no response to Aurane Waters being the one to pass the message to her. grrm had him be the one to do it for a reason, and for those who didnt remember all the shady crap against the crown he did already he had him take the whole royal navy so that there was no doubt whatsoever

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Also Kevan Lannister was on good terms with the Tyrells. And the iron born are a serious threat to the reach currently. In no way would any of them be idiots and go attack dragon stone just because cersei wanted that done. Mace, Randall and Kevan would never waste resources for something senseless. Loras doesn't need Cerseis permission to defend his home land, Cersei has no power at all anymore

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On 12/31/2016 at 2:26 PM, Jadakiss said:
On 12/30/2016 at 8:17 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

In A Feast for Crows the reason is that if Loras were able to end the siege by taking Dragonstone then Redwyne's fleet could then leave to meet the Ironborn. 

 

Right but Loras doesn't need to make a deal with her nor need her permission for anything. She was lied to, she got the answer that would satisfy her. There is no reason that the Tyrells would send Loras and their men on a death mission, a castle that is no use to them, there isn't even any noble people of value that could be grabbed as hostages. They wouldn't risk Loras dying while doing Cerseis bidding

@Jadakiss

It is what you said. 

You keep giving me reasons why Loras did not go to Dragonstone when I'm not saying that Loras did go to Dragonstone.

Our conversation only started when you asked for a logical reason why Loras would go to DS (if he did). So I let you know the reason that George gives us in Feast. 

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On 1/11/2017 at 3:50 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Jadakiss

It is what you said. 

You keep giving me reasons why Loras did not go to Dragonstone when I'm not saying that Loras did go to Dragonstone.

Our conversation only started when you asked for a logical reason why Loras would go to DS (if he did). So I let you know the reason that George gives us in Feast. 

Just cause he told Cersei he would that is not at all a logical reason that he would actually go do it

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27 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That wasn't the reason I gave you...

There has to be at least 10 logical reasons listed throughout this thread for Loras to go. Jadakiss doesn't like them, so she just keeps repeating that there are zero reasons. That's why I stopped respecting any argument that comes from her. She blindly has her own (or most likely other people's) theories carved in stone, while she accuses anyone that disagrees with her as being blind. 

I'm sure she will now tell me that everything I think is wrong, but hopefully she will be sure to imply that a bunch of her assumptions are facts and be as condescending to me as possible, all without ever providing any sort of quote or evidence. 

And I agree with your previous post... it doesn't seem like she reads what anybody else writes. Or English is her second language. I still can't tell. 

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33 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That wasn't the reason I gave you...

Yeah, I wouldn't dwell on this one. 

 

Jada is right. I couldn't think of any kingsguard who might obey a royal command instead of immediately tending to the defense of their house or family land. Loras obviously idolizes Jaime Lannister and knows he killed a king when his family needed him. So there is literally no precedent for him to take orders from a queen regent when his family needs him. I don't think we should have any reason to examine the recent services of: Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant, Balon Swann, Jonothor Darry, Oswell Whent, or Gerold Hightower and what they did while KG or if there was war happening on their family's land. Certainly if their homelands ever had an issue, regardless if the royal family ordered them to do something, those KG just went directly to their house and led their houses army against the trouble. After all, they didn't vote for the royal family. And I don't think they had to swear oaths to protect/obey for life.

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I only read the OP, so please forgive me if these points have been thoroughly debated, but I just read the passage where Aurane tells Cersei about the siege and Cersei tells Margaery, and I see no reason to doubt the tale. 

Stannis does not tell Roland Storm to abandon Dragonstone...

Quote

"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

Samwell V, Storm 78

He tells Roland to begin mining obsidian, presumably so that it can be transported to the Wall, but why should we assume that Stannis would simply abandon Dragonstone? A few hundred men at Dragonstone and a few hundred more at Storm’s End have kept Houses Lannister and Tyrell in check in the South. Yes, he could certainly use those men in his current predicament, but if he had called for their aide at the end of Storm, wouldn’t we have seen them by now? 122 chapters later?

What would be the point, in relation to the plot, of having Loras lie about his death in a fake siege, abandon his duties as a knight of the Kingsguard, where he can shield his sister, to go to the Reach, where his very capable brothers are already marshaling a counterattack? Why do you assume that Willas cannot walk? And why would Willas have to mount a horse and ride into battle himself with Garlan?

We have every reason to believe what we are told regarding Loras’s siege of Dragonstone. Jaime tells us that Loras is a younger version of himself, and that if Jaime were younger he would have stormed Riverrun. Keeping Loras alive now allows Margaery to hope. But Loras was not destined to survive the series, is he? Is there a future use for him in the plot?

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On 11-1-2017 at 2:15 AM, Jadakiss said:

There isn't one benefit dragon stone has to offer the Tyrells

Actually there is a benefit to having dragonstone for the Tyrells. Not at the time of taking it, but once they have it and Cersei's shenanigans with Margaery become clear, it is in their advantage to have a basis to blockade trade and ships going in the Blackwater, if they wish to jump over to say fAegon's side.

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually there is a benefit to having dragonstone for the Tyrells. Not at the time of taking it, but once they have it and Cersei's shenanigans with Margaery become clear, it is in their advantage to have a basis to blockade trade and ships going in the Blackwater, if they wish to jump over to say fAegon's side.

 

Right buts its not more important then the current situation with the iron born raiding their home land. And all the drama in KL that is going down. Both those are major priorities

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7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Right buts its not more important then the current situation with the iron born raiding their home land. And all the drama in KL that is going down. Both those are major priorities

Indeed.

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On 12/01/2017 at 8:43 PM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Yeah, I wouldn't dwell on this one. 

 

Jada is right. I couldn't think of any kingsguard who might obey a royal command instead of immediately tending to the defense of their house or family land. Loras obviously idolizes Jaime Lannister and knows he killed a king when his family needed him. So there is literally no precedent for him to take orders from a queen regent when his family needs him. I don't think we should have any reason to examine the recent services of: Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant, Balon Swann, Jonothor Darry, Oswell Whent, or Gerold Hightower and what they did while KG or if there was war happening on their family's land. Certainly if their homelands ever had an issue, regardless if the royal family ordered them to do something, those KG just went directly to their house and led their houses army against the trouble. After all, they didn't vote for the royal family. And I don't think they had to swear oaths to protect/obey for life.

You're kidding right? I honestly can't tell if its really good sarcasm or not.. 

 

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