Its clear that Loras went to an empty Dragon Stone

[Jadakiss]

It is very obvious that when Loras arrived DS was empty...  It was mentioned a couple times how Stannis sent word to Rolland Storm to mine dragon glass and get to the wall.

Then word gets to Cersei that Loras is burned and dying. Out of all the people that could have told Cersei, grrm decided to have Aurane Waters tell her. Probably the biggest liar in the whole series. Not only that but then his loyalty to her is shown when he racks off with her new entire navy fleet.

Loras from the start wanted to get to his homeland and defend it from the Iron Born. that is where he will go.

 

Also Mace Tyrell made a comment about his homeland being under attack and says something along the lines of "my sonS will get it back" sons as in plural. so look how many he has, and keep in mind one of them is disabled and cannot walk. So if Loras was dying like that, and it was true Mace would have word about it. Its pretty clear he knows the deal

 

Little off base not sure if true or not but I dont think there is any major reason that Stannis would need dragon stone for now anyway. He needs his forces where it matters now. No reason to even have a garrison there opposed to the wall/his current situation

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

 

 

Also Mace Tyrell made a comment about his homeland being under attack and says something along the lines of "my sonS will get it back" sons as in plural. so look how many he has, and keep in mind one of them is disabled and cannot walk. So if Loras was dying like that, and it was true Mace would have word about it. Its pretty clear he knows the deal

 

Some quote on the text would be nice.

[Jadakiss]

54 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Some quote on the text would be nice.

 

Ill find it when I get home

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Also Mace Tyrell made a comment about his homeland being under attack and says something along the lines of "my sonS will get it back" sons as in plural. so look how many he has, and keep in mind one of them is disabled and cannot walk. So if Loras was dying like that, and it was true Mace would have word about it. Its pretty clear he knows the deal

Willas is running Highgarden, and Garlen is at Brightwater Keep. We're not told that Willas cannot walk, just that he's crippled in the leg, which can mean many things.

7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

It was mentioned a couple times how Stannis sent word to Rolland Storm to mine dragon glass and get to the wall.

Stannis talks about having dragonglass sent to the wall, I don't think he talks about having the garrison come up with it. 

 

7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Then word gets to Cersei that Loras is burned and dying. Out of all the people that could have told Cersei, grrm decided to have Aurane Waters tell her. Probably the biggest liar in the whole series. Not only that but then his loyalty to her is shown when he racks off with her new entire navy fleet.

There were plenty of other people there too, one of them would tell somebody if there was no battle at all.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

I, like King Merret up there was hoping to open this thread and find it backed up by textual evidence from the books in the form of quotes. 

Ah well, next time maybe.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I, like King Merret up there was hoping to open this thread and find it backed up by textual evidence from the books in the form of quotes. 

 

I have seen similar theories before, mind. The idea Dragonstone was empty is a non-starter for me, but some of the theories that Loras isn't as injured as is reported are a bit more plausible. I struggle to see why the Tyrells would do it though. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I have seen similar theories before, mind. The idea Dragonstone was empty is a non-starter for me, but some of the theories that Loras isn't as injured as is reported are a bit more plausible. I struggle to see why the Tyrells would do it though. 

Why yes of course there are theories out there, and the OP has seen them of course. What I was hoping for was something extra though, some text to accompany the thread, a fresh angle? but nope. The same old tactic. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why yes of course there are theories out there, and the OP has seen them of course. What I was hoping for was something extra though, some text to accompany the thread, a fresh angle? but nope. The same old tactic. 

Agreed. I was kind of trying to start a discussion about the merits of these theories generally and ignore the unsubstantiated assertions of the OP.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I think that was a very neat trick. Hiding it all, I mean.

See, Loras Tyrell went, supposedly to Dragonstone, not on foot, but actually with a fleet. Consisting of ships. Manned with sailors. Hundreds of those, if not thousands. Sailors, who, when in port (that would be King's Landing), go ashore, visit libraries, taverns and whorehouses (OK, I'm not sure about the libraries), and eat, drink, gamble, sing, brawl, fuck, and talk. The idea of several hundreds of sailors keeping a secret is patently absurd, so apparently they don't know they assaulted an undefended fortress, either. That's some Burt Wonderstone, "Now You See Me"-grade trick illusion.

And, sadly, we won't learn how Aurane and Loras pulled that off, since a magician never reveals his secrets.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The only seemingly viable trick along these lines would be someone else in Loras's armor. Other than that the soldiers Loras led were Lannister soldiers.  Unless all 4 thousand are suppose to have died in the assault, then Kevan or Pycelle or Qyburn would have been told by some of those soldiers that no assault took place.

What's more Loras made his pledge to assault the fortress in front of the whole court, it wasn't just between Cersei and Loras.  Not following through on that would be a serious problem, Loras is a KG he can't just lie to the King and Queen without consequence.

The Dragonstone garrison does serve a purpose, he is holding the Redwyn fleet in place, and has a potential staging zone for another attempt on Kings Landing.  

[Jadakiss]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Willas is running Highgarden, and Garlen is at Brightwater Keep. We're not told that Willas cannot walk, just that he's crippled in the leg, which can mean many things.

Stannis talks about having dragonglass sent to the wall, I don't think he talks about having the garrison come up with it. 

 

There were plenty of other people there too, one of them would tell somebody if there was no battle at all.

 

 

Stannis has no use for dragon stone. so him having anything of use there makes 0 sense. as I said grrm had the biggest lie to cersei at the time, it doesn't matter who else knows the truth, she got incarcerated, was something to keep her at bay or a story that would satisfy the people loyal to her

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

Stannis has no use for dragon stone. so him having anything of use there makes 0 sense. as I said grrm had the biggest lie to cersei at the time, it doesn't matter who else knows the truth, she got incarcerated, was something to keep her at bay or a story that would satisfy the people loyal to her

That doesn’t answer any of the points I’ve made.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

Stannis has no use for dragon stone. so him having anything of use there makes 0 sense

There are plenty of reasons, just as there are reasons to continue to hold onto Storms End:

1) He keeps a foothold in the South, if he decides to hit back down there if circumstances change.

2) If he has strongholds in the South, particularly strong ones close to Kings Landing, they have to be taken before any further moves are made against him in the North - Cersei is obsessed with recapturing Dragonstone a “knife at my son’s throat”.

Think about it. A huge part of the Tywin host is stuck outside Storms End, the entire Redwyne fleet is stuck at Dragonstone (with very specific orders not to move until it’s captured), along with a good part of the remaining Lannister forces. For the sake of a few men to carry out garrison duty, this is extremely useful.

3) Simple bullheadedness- in the words of Tywin Lannister “this is Stannis Baratheon, he will fight to the bitter end and then some”.

4) Symbolic importance. It’s the seat of Aegon the Conqueror and the Targaryens, and a strong fortress.

Also, if there was no reason at all to garrison it, why leave a garrison there at all to begin with, why not just abandon it when he went North?

Anyway, despite us knowing plenty about Stannis’s plans, at no point does he say he’s planning on abandoning Dragonstone. He does make it clear he doesn’t expect the garrison to hold for long, but never states this as a reason for leaving.

Wouldn’t people know if he abandoned the castle? Everyone’s been watching it like hawks. He has no motive for keeping it secret, unless you think Stannis is a part of this Tyrell plot for some reason?

[jthurman14]

I will have to go back and read those chapters. Initial gut feeling was that Loras was indeed badly maimed. When GRRM makes someone beautiful you know he will eventually get around to showing an ugly side of them. HOWEVER, knowing that as a KG he MUST return to KL there is motivation to have a solid reason to stay away. The garrison, yes DS had to have been manned, could have possibly been a skeleton crew but could still do a lot of damage to the first few through the wall. (In the days of castles and walled cities the common moniker given to the tip of the spear was 'forlorn hope')

Hope I am not spoiling here but DS is under siege at the end of Dance? Correct? I will have to reread.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That's some Burt Wonderstone, "Now You See Me"-grade trick illusion.

I laughed too hard at the Burt Wonderstone comment. Mostly because I hadn't thought of that movie since I saw the previews. I guess I assumed no one went to see it and I would never have thought to see it referenced. Very funny! Thanks!

[Wolf of the Steppes]

Come on now @Shouldve Taken The Black and @Macgregor of the North!!!!

16 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

It is very obvious that when Loras arrived DS was empty

 

 

16 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

It was mentioned a couple times how Stannis sent word to Rolland Storm to mine dragon glass and get to the wall.

I mean, if it's mentioned a couple times, it should be obvious right???

The actual text:

 "I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls." --A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Didn't read anything there that mentioned "get to the wall".  Go ahead and look for it @Jadakiss, it's not there.  

From where I'm standing there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that DS was empty.  The other theories about Loras not being injured or not as badly injured have some actual merit supported by the text.  

And just as a matter of opinion:

16 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

Then word gets to Cersei that Loras is burned and dying. Out of all the people that could have told Cersei, grrm decided to have Aurane Waters tell her. Probably the biggest liar in the whole series.

Littlefinger anyone?

Sorry to pile on Jadakiss, but you should probably do some research before vomiting up some theory you heard 3rd hand. It really dumbs down the forum when you throw things out like this and then just say something like, "oh, I'll look it up when I get home," or "I have to return some video tapes."

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

It is very obvious that when Loras arrived DS was empty...  It was mentioned a couple times how Stannis sent word to Rolland Storm to mine dragon glass and get to the wall.

Then word gets to Cersei that Loras is burned and dying. Out of all the people that could have told Cersei, grrm decided to have Aurane Waters tell her. Probably the biggest liar in the whole series. Not only that but then his loyalty to her is shown when he racks off with her new entire navy fleet.

Loras from the start wanted to get to his homeland and defend it from the Iron Born. that is where he will go.

Also Mace Tyrell made a comment about his homeland being under attack and says something along the lines of "my sonS will get it back" sons as in plural. so look how many he has, and keep in mind one of them is disabled and cannot walk. So if Loras was dying like that, and it was true Mace would have word about it. Its pretty clear he knows the deal

Little off base not sure if true or not but I dont think there is any major reason that Stannis would need dragon stone for now anyway. He needs his forces where it matters now. No reason to even have a garrison there opposed to the wall/his current situation

Dragonstone is his seat. He wouldn't just abandon it. As he was quoted above, there is a garrison. Small yes, but castles are meant to be defended by small forces against far larger ones.  I can see a ruse about the extent of Loras' injuries, but the whole island being empty? Not possible. Too many people would notice that. There is precedent for the Tyrells being less than honest. They dressed Garlan in Renly's armor during the battle of the blackwater.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

The actual text:

Woah, woah, woah... Using the text to support your post? Let's not get too crazy here! 

[Maxxine]

You have this interesting way of presenting your theories as fact as if you wrote/are writing the books. 

Anyway, I think it's plausible that Loras is not as hurt as they say he is. But I think there were defense there. 1. Stannis left a garrison. You don't just leave your base undefended. At the very least you would want somewhere to run back to if things wrong. Also even if he told the people on dragonstone to mine dragon glass wouldn't they still be doing. I know the timeline is iffy and we're not sure how much time has passed but I don't there has been enough time to mine enough dragonglass to justify already sending it to the Wall.

Also has Aurane Waters truly been that big of a liar. Not saying you're I just don't remember. Obviously he took the fleet but that could just be he took advantage once it was clear Cersei was going down 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

34 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Woah, woah, woah... Using the text to support your post? Let's not get too crazy here! 

Yea, I know I'm a little out there, but pretty soon, everyone will be doing it!