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Its clear that Loras went to an empty Dragon Stone


Jadakiss

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2 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Sorry to pile on Jadakiss, but you should probably do some research before vomiting up some theory you heard 3rd hand. It really dumbs down the forum when you throw things out like this and then just say something like, "oh, I'll look it up when I get home," or "I have to return some video tapes."

At least this time they didn't say it was 10,000% correct, like Theon being the Hooded Man and anyone who disagrees is wrong and most likely can't read.

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3 hours ago, PCK said:

I think Loras has been featured too much to get seriously wounded off-page. 

I agree with this for sure. While I highly doubt that Loras showed up to an empty DS, there's something going on there. This is probably one of the story lines that I'm most looking forward to in WoW. I have no idea what is going on. The only part of the equation I feel strongly about, is that the Tyrell's are lying about at least some part of this story, and it doesn't seem like their MO to make this kind of move on their own. There's a lot of options out there, but I can't wait to see who they're scheming with. 

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14 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

At least this time they didn't say it was 10,000% correct, like Theon being the Hooded Man and anyone who disagrees is wrong and most likely can't read.

Oh he's that guy. Is this being done on purpose just to annoy people? In which case fair play to him I guess. 

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On 12/22/2016 at 9:51 AM, Jadakiss said:

 

Stannis has no use for dragon stone. so him having anything of use there makes 0 sense. as I said grrm had the biggest lie to cersei at the time, it doesn't matter who else knows the truth, she got incarcerated, was something to keep her at bay or a story that would satisfy the people loyal to her

Stannis wants them to mine obsidian. Because that's what kills the White Walkers.

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13 hours ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

 

I agree with this for sure. While I highly doubt that Loras showed up to an empty DS, there's something going on there. This is probably one of the story lines that I'm most looking forward to in WoW. I have no idea what is going on. The only part of the equation I feel strongly about, is that the Tyrell's are lying about at least some part of this story, and it doesn't seem like their MO to make this kind of move on their own. There's a lot of options out there, but I can't wait to see who they're scheming with. 

Taking a wild guess...Doran Martell? Despite everything, Oberyn and Willas were friends. 

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I'm sometimes jealous of those people who get to read some version of ASoIaF where everything is the exact opposite of what is stated on page, everybody is a secret Targaryen and/or a bastard, everything and everyone is warged by Bloodraven, every little mention of stuff is an overwrought metaphor for something else and there's some imaginary blackhole moon/space opera subplot going on...

Where can you buy those "special" editions?

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On 23/12/2016 at 2:30 AM, Wolf of the Steppes said:

 "I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls." --A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Technically, that sentence still makes sense if he's ordered the garrison to flee at the first sight of danger.

And thinking about it, this actually makes sense. One issue I've always had with Stannis's orders here is how he intends to have this obsidian delivered.

  • There surely isn't a great deal of trade flowing between Dragonstone and Eastwatch at the best of times
  • Westerosi merchant shipping is out of the question
  • He doesn't have the money to hire ships anyway
  • Pretty much the only ships left to him are Sallador Saan's, which aren't at Dragonstone
  • Even if he had some merchant ships, he doesn't have the extra ships necessary to provide security

And most importantly, exactly how big is the mining operation at Dragonstone? Especially considering they'll be starting from scratch with no investment or labour or materials or anything that isn't already on the island. Are they really going to be mining so much that they'll be filling entire ships with it - that they'll need some large-scale logistical operation to move it?

I don't think so.

If instead the garrison is ordered to mine as much obsidian as they can before somebody arrives to take the island, lock the castle up tight and sneak away to some other ships in the night. Perhaps even yield the castle in exchange for their safe passage away? You might say that Stannis would never give it up, but look at the passage again: he's already resigned to the fact that he's going to lose Dragonstone; his priority is the Others.

As for the notion that such a large-scale deception is unworkable because people talk, well, that's a recurring plot-hole in these books. Nobody survived the Battle of Winterfell to report on Ramsay Bolton's treachery? Not one Bolton or Frey soldier said to their Stark brother-in-arms, "Oi mate, watch out tonight, we're gonna kill you"?

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On 23/12/2016 at 4:54 PM, devilish said:

I think that Loras is gravely hurt. However not in the way they say

I was just re-reading this section of the books. It's interesting to note that we actually never get the account of what happened to Loras from Aurane Waters - it just says that he told the story of what happened twice to Cersei because she wanted to be the one to tell Margaery, which means its possible that Cersei took some liberties with the specifics. I believe he's hurt, but not exactly how Cersei says. 

Also, I'm not sure how this plays into it but this is the quote from Cersei when Loras begs to go to Dragonstone (with Aurane Waters present):

Quote

"I have no doubt that our Knight of Flowers will be the first man to gain the battlements." And perhaps the first to fall.

And then when Cersie is telling Margaery about his Loras's injuries:

Quote

"Loras was the first one through the breach when the ram broke the castle gates"

Just seems pretty coincidental, that everything just happened to play out as Cersei stated at court.

If there are chapters later on that detail other sources reporting what happened to KL, please share!

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4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Technically, that sentence still makes sense if he's ordered the garrison to flee at the first sight of danger.

And thinking about it, this actually makes sense. One issue I've always had with Stannis's orders here is how he intends to have this obsidian delivered.

  • There surely isn't a great deal of trade flowing between Dragonstone and Eastwatch at the best of times
  • Westerosi merchant shipping is out of the question
  • He doesn't have the money to hire ships anyway
  • Pretty much the only ships left to him are Sallador Saan's, which aren't at Dragonstone
  • Even if he had some merchant ships, he doesn't have the extra ships necessary to provide security

And most importantly, exactly how big is the mining operation at Dragonstone? Especially considering they'll be starting from scratch with no investment or labour or materials or anything that isn't already on the island. Are they really going to be mining so much that they'll be filling entire ships with it - that they'll need some large-scale logistical operation to move it?

I don't think so.

If instead the garrison is ordered to mine as much obsidian as they can before somebody arrives to take the island, lock the castle up tight and sneak away to some other ships in the night. Perhaps even yield the castle in exchange for their safe passage away? You might say that Stannis would never give it up, but look at the passage again: he's already resigned to the fact that he's going to lose Dragonstone; his priority is the Others.

As for the notion that such a large-scale deception is unworkable because people talk, well, that's a recurring plot-hole in these books. Nobody survived the Battle of Winterfell to report on Ramsay Bolton's treachery? Not one Bolton or Frey soldier said to their Stark brother-in-arms, "Oi mate, watch out tonight, we're gonna kill you"?

^this. The quote implies that they have to mine as much as possible before it falls, and in order to get away from Dragonstone, the garisson either flees before the fleet from arrives, or as they are reported to come into sight, or they procured safe passage. Stannis already gave up on Dragonstone. He lingered there for a while with Mel's idea to make the stone dragons come to live, but Davos with the letter from the NW woke him from such foolery. The only ones who could deliver the obsidian are the garrison.

As for Aurane - he recruited young men for the ships and thus recruited men loyal to him, not Cersei, not the crown.

The troops - it's not clear where those troops that supposedly besieged and attacked Dragonstone are now. Did they return to KL, or are they supposedly still at Dragonstone. The info we get about all this is sketchy, but it may be my memory.

And of course if no battle took place then Loras isn't even wounded.

Agreed on the talk - Some of the routed forces to retake Winterfell survived in the Wolfswood. They joined Stannis' force at the crofter's village. They know who attacked them - Ramsay. They would know who burned Winterfell. 

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5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

As for the notion that such a large-scale deception is unworkable because people talk, well, that's a recurring plot-hole in these books. Nobody survived the Battle of Winterfell to report on Ramsay Bolton's treachery? Not one Bolton or Frey soldier said to their Stark brother-in-arms, "Oi mate, watch out tonight, we're gonna kill you"?

Yet none of those events are exactly a secret after the fact. Roose and Ramsay may humor themselves pretending that Theon burned Winterfell, but what the northmen do is not buying their story, merely playing along for the time being. Ask Manderly. Ask the Wull.

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13 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yet none of those events are exactly a secret after the fact. Roose and Ramsay may humor themselves pretending that Theon burned Winterfell, but what the northmen do is not buying their story, merely playing along for the time being. Ask Manderly. Ask the Wull.

But Cersei is no Manderly and no Wull. Wull can know via the remainder of the routed troops that besieged WF when Theon held it and were attacked by Ramsay. Manderly knows stuff from Wex. Cersei's biggest flaw is that she hears what she wants to hear and she's deaf and blind to the rest. She thinks herself smart and how others cannot see through her own act, but she's less so than she believes. And Aurane knows perfectly how to play into that.

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3 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Well, did he? 

It makes no sense for Stannis to say "mine as much obsidian before it falls" without having ordered his castellan what to do when KL fleet appears on the horizon. If he orders them to hold it, then how will the obsidian get North?

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