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Jadakiss

What happened with Allister Thorne and Joffrey (plot hole?)

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I was rewatching the series today. And saw that Mormont sent Thorne to kings landing to show joffrey the white walker so they could see its a true threat and would send more men to the wall.

Mormont even tells Jon that he wants as many leagues possible between him and Thorne, and that Thorne was to take it to "the boy kings feet" or something like that. Then we never hear anything about it

 

So is this just a plot hole they never explained what happened? Because he never shows up to kings landing and then just randomly shows back up at the wall episodes later. Did I miss something?

Edited by Jadakiss

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Just one of the many things they abandoned because 99%+ of the audience wouldn't have picked up on it. A bit like Davos's paper shield. 

 

In the book the hand rots because Tyrion makes Thorne wait to long. 

Edited by aFeastForDragons

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On 12/21/2016 at 10:36 PM, Jadakiss said:

I was rewatching the series today. And saw that Mormont sent Thorne to kings landing to show joffrey the white walker so they could see its a true threat and would send more men to the wall.

Mormont even tells Jon that he wants as many leagues possible between him and Thorne, and that Thorne was to take it to "the boy kings feet" or something like that. Then we never hear anything about it

 

So is this just a plot hole they never explained what happened? Because he never shows up to kings landing and then just randomly shows back up at the wall episodes later. Did I miss something?

I guess we can fill in the blanks with assumptions (based on what happened in the books), but that's not very satisfying.

So yeah, I think you're right, it's basically a plot hole, or at least a hanging thread, never explained.

Bottom line, to me, is that the show raced through the source material (books) too fast, and left a lot of good stuff on the editing floor that could have been used to extend the show by at least another season or two.

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39 minutes ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Just one of the many things they abandoned because 99%+ of the audience wouldn't have picked up on it. A bit like Davos's paper shield. 

 

In the book the hand rots because Tyrion makes Thorne wait to long. 

Don't think I've heard about this, what was Davos' paper shield?

Or maybe I forgot?

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If I remember, the Imp mocks Thorne because he did not like the way he was treated by him when at the wall but then he did have a bad feeling about the hand, the story and he felt something was "off" or "unsettling" when was at the Wall. He was more worried about Stannis's impending Seige of King's Landing.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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6 hours ago, Cron said:

Don't think I've heard about this, what was Davos' paper shield?

Or maybe I forgot?

 

Where he saves himself in the final Dragonstone scene of S3 by using the letter from the Night's Watch(fans named it the paper shield). Then next season their burning people alive with zero mention of the Wall or Night's Watch making the final S3 scene messy and rather pointless. At least in terms of storytelling it was a complete mess. 

Edited by aFeastForDragons

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It was never explained onscreen.

This was a subject of some debate for years as to what happened.  Bryan Cogman actually explained it on Twitter earlier this year, saying that Thorne was supposed to appear in King's Landing in Season 2, but Owen Teale wasn't available, so rather than recast Thorne they just threw in the bit about the raven and were able to bring him back for Season 4.

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10 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

Where he saves himself in the final Dragonstone scene of S3 by using the letter from the Night's Watch(fans named it the paper shield). Then next season their burning people alive with zero mention of the Wall or Night's Watch making the final S3 scene messy and rather pointless. At least in terms of storytelling it was a complete mess. 

Interesting.

I strongly agree that the paper shield was very "convenient" for Davos, no doubt, but I guess once they got up north I wasn't surprised by Stannis' behaivior, cuz Stannis is Stannis.  Extremely stubborn (thus, Mance Rayder must burn, just cuz he won't formally "bend the knee"), and highly susceptible to influence from Melisandre (as I recall, it was Melisandre who convinced Stannis to try to re-take Winterfell, telling him she had had visions of herself walking the walls of Winterfell while Bolton banners fell).

Regarding the burning of Shireen...it was my least favorite scene in the entire show series, but as I understand it they claim it is canon and going to happen in the books (although it can't happen exactly the same way in the books, of course), so it's hard for me to judge the show too harshly for that (at least, until I finally read the book version)

Not saying you're "wrong" about any of that, though, just saying the above is how I viewed it, guess I just chalked it up to Stannis being Stannis.  Certainly, Tyrion would have made dramatically different decisions, for example.

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On 12/24/2016 at 3:52 AM, Colonel Green said:

It was never explained onscreen.

This was a subject of some debate for years as to what happened.  Bryan Cogman actually explained it on Twitter earlier this year, saying that Thorne was supposed to appear in King's Landing in Season 2, but Owen Teale wasn't available, so rather than recast Thorne they just threw in the bit about the raven and were able to bring him back for Season 4.

 

If thats the case one would figure when Thornes actor was back for shooting it would have even been brought up once, even if its to proclaim they are getting no help, and that the one king didn't care or some shit (and then stannis shows up couple episodes later but fan ficiton lol)

 

I guess overall it is something that was never brought up or was not caught. Only caught by me after a re watch, and as many when I reread the books now I make sure I dont possibly miss a punctuation error

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On 24 December 2016 at 10:44 AM, Cron said:

Regarding the burning of Shireen...it was my least favorite scene in the entire show series, but as I understand it they claim it is canon and going to happen in the books (although it can't happen exactly the same way in the books, of course), so it's hard for me to judge the show too harshly for that (at least, until I finally read the book version)

 

When that episode aired George said he hadn't wrote that part of the story yet and refused to comment on it. Take whatever you will from that but he wrote the Battle of Ice years before ADWD was released so that really makes you wonder how, when and where Shireen's death actually takes place in the story. 

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2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

When that episode aired George said he hadn't wrote that part of the story yet and refused to comment on it. Take whatever you will from that but he wrote the Battle of Ice years before ADWD was released so that really makes you wonder how, when and where Shireen's death actually takes place in the story. 

But wasn't he caught writing an a part of the battle on John Oliver's show last year?

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10 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

When that episode aired George said he hadn't wrote that part of the story yet and refused to comment on it. Take whatever you will from that but he wrote the Battle of Ice years before ADWD was released so that really makes you wonder how, when and where Shireen's death actually takes place in the story. 

Very interesting, seriously, but my very strong memory is that in the comments by Dan and/or Dave on HBO after the episode in which Shireen was burned, one of them (Dan or Dave, I'm not sure which) directly stated that GRRM had told them about the burning of Shireen, and that's why they did it.   Thus, my understanding is that the burning of Shireen is canon and will be in the books (although, again, it can't happen exactly the same way in the books as it did in the show)

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On 12/24/2016 at 5:03 AM, Cron said:

Bottom line, to me, is that the show raced through the source material (books) too fast, and left a lot of good stuff on the editing floor that could have been used to extend the show by at least another season or two.

Why do you think D&D would want to extend the show?  They set out to tell a story in a set amount of hours, not drag it out so they're working 365 days a year indefinitely.  They never wanted to go beyond 7/8 full seasons, so cutting stuff out is not counter-productive to their end goals.

They probably didn't care too much about Sir Alliser and the dead hand because it would have only shown Tyrion in a bad light, which the show has shied away from in general.  Tyrion thought Sir Alliser was mocking him in front of Varys, LF and the court, and he jumped at the chance for someone else to be the butt of general bullying besides himself, so he made Thorne a laughing stock and sent him away with a bunch of spades, instead of actually listening and taking him seriously.  All this despite Tyrion's instincts telling him there was something evil beyond the Wall.  There's no way the show would include any of this; it makes Tyrion look like a pathetic coward.

So when the Others invade, blame Tyrion.  In the books at least.

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On 2016-12-22 at 5:36 AM, Jadakiss said:

I was rewatching the series today. And saw that Mormont sent Thorne to kings landing to show joffrey the white walker so they could see its a true threat and would send more men to the wall.

 

A bit of off-topic, but Thorn wasn't going to show the white walker cause you cannot show one. He had a hand of a wight. White walkers are the "icy" ones, one of them was killed by Sam. I know it's still quite common between show fans to call wights as 'white walkers'.

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On 12/27/2016 at 5:37 PM, maudisdottir said:

Why do you think D&D would want to extend the show?  They set out to tell a story in a set amount of hours, not drag it out so they're working 365 days a year indefinitely.  They never wanted to go beyond 7/8 full seasons, so cutting stuff out is not counter-productive to their end goals.

They probably didn't care too much about Sir Alliser and the dead hand because it would have only shown Tyrion in a bad light, which the show has shied away from in general.  Tyrion thought Sir Alliser was mocking him in front of Varys, LF and the court, and he jumped at the chance for someone else to be the butt of general bullying besides himself, so he made Thorne a laughing stock and sent him away with a bunch of spades, instead of actually listening and taking him seriously.  All this despite Tyrion's instincts telling him there was something evil beyond the Wall.  There's no way the show would include any of this; it makes Tyrion look like a pathetic coward.

So when the Others invade, blame Tyrion.  In the books at least.

Regarding extending the show:  Well, I assumed that the showrunners (and just about everyone else involved) love what they are doing, are making good money, and HBO is making good money, so I assumed they would all want that to continue, but if you have information that they only wanted 8 seasons (especially with the last two seasons truncated, no less), I'd definitely be interested to hear about that.

Have you actually heard that, or no?.

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Quote

"[Benioff and Weiss] have a very specific plan about the number of seasons they want to do," Bloys said at the Television Critics Association’s press tour in Beverly Hills on Saturday. "Believe me, as the new [programming president] coming in, if I could get them to do more. I would take 10 more seasons. But we take their lead on what they think they can do the best version of the show."

In a previous interview, Benioff and Weiss suggested that they were aiming to do only two more seasons to bring the series to the vicinity of 73 episodes.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/hbo-confirms-season-8-of-game-of-thrones-is-series-last-w431820

That was from earlier this year.  I don't have time to search more but they've stated in interviews for quite a while that they have always known how long they needed to tell the story, and HBO wanted them to extend the series but they wouldn't.  They are away from their families ALL the time - I remember one of them saying they only had a single day off in an entire year.  You can only keep doing that year after year if you know the end is in sight - it's not something you could do indefinitely and still maintain that level of quality of the production.

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On 12/28/2016 at 9:23 AM, TheSmallOther said:

A bit of off-topic, but Thorn wasn't going to show the white walker cause you cannot show one. He had a hand of a wight. White walkers are the "icy" ones, one of them was killed by Sam. I know it's still quite common between show fans to call wights as 'white walkers'.

 

I thought in the show mormont said he was going to leave the body at the feet of joffrey

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On 12/27/2016 at 11:27 AM, Cron said:

Very interesting, seriously, but my very strong memory is that in the comments by Dan and/or Dave on HBO after the episode in which Shireen was burned, one of them (Dan or Dave, I'm not sure which) directly stated that GRRM had told them about the burning of Shireen, and that's why they did it.   Thus, my understanding is that the burning of Shireen is canon and will be in the books (although, again, it can't happen exactly the same way in the books as it did in the show)

 

Yes it will def happen in the books but def not at the hands of stannis. 99.9% sure it will be Mel doing it at the wall. Stannis would never do it, thats why even if he dies he has Massey prepare to fight for her

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14 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Yes it will def happen in the books but def not at the hands of stannis. 99.9% sure it will be Mel doing it at the wall. Stannis would never do it, thats why even if he dies he has Massey prepare to fight for her

An interesting possibiilty, that Shireen might burn in the books but without the consent (or possibly even knowledge) of Stannis, and if so then that's an enormous difference between the books and the show..

In fact, if that's how it is in the books (Shireen burns but without Stannis consenting or possibly even knowing), I would have to say that in my mind that would probably be one of the 5 biggest differences between the books and the show (In my view, it radically changes Stannis' overall story, and he's a pretty major character, having had a lot of screen time for four seasons, and an enormous impact on events in Westeros during that time)

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