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Question about Petyr's comment about Margaery's queenly crown?


HouseFossoway

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In a storm of swords, Petyr Baelish says, in reference to Margaery:

"She'll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants, but what does that matter?"

Why would Petyr say that Margaery doesn't especially want to keep her queenly crown? From all accounts it seems like Margaery really wants to be Queen, but granted those are mostly the thoughts of other people.

Is Petyr implying that Margaery agrees with her grandmother that it would be better to be neutral, but that she is being pressured into marriage by Mace who wants to be father of the queen?

Is Petyr implying that Margaery secretly has another person who she loves, and would rather be married to that person rather than be Queen?

Is Petyr implying that he is aware of Margaery's ambitions and goals (implying some kind of deeper alliance that goes beyond the Tyrell adults)?

 

It just seems like a really weird comment to make about Margaery, given how Margaery has been actively trying to maintain being the Queen. Does Littlefinger know something about Margaery that the readers don't?

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We haven't seen Margaery actively trying to maintain being the Queen. We have seen her through other POVs, and mainly, after her marriage, through Cersei's highly biased POV. If we isolate the facts, we only see her responding -rather well, smart girl that she is- to her given situation.

I think we should take Olenna to her word, when she expresses (to Sansa) her opinion about Mace's royal aspirations, and that Margaery shares her grandmother's opinion.

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Marge is not a player. She does not particularly want to be queen, all political ambition on the side of the Tyrell's is Mace's alone. What Marge does care about is family. She doesn't particularly care about being queen, but marrying where their father decides is just the standard course for girls in her position in Westeros. She follows happily and unquestionably.

Marge is a product of her environment, and her environment was a flowery, loving and loyal family. She sees the world and people through this prism, as that's what she's known.

From Marge's point of view she is not in a show down with a fellow player for power, for control of the crown. In Cersei she does (did) not see a power hungry woman trying to push her aside to remain in control, she sees an overly protective mother trying to keep a monopoly on her child's love. She thinks the animosity between her and Cersei rises from affection for Tommen.

Cersei likewise sees the world through her POV, and sees a different Marge from the truth, and we as the reader are taken along for that ride. What Cersei sees as thinly veiled power moves are simply what Marge considers her duty. As it's Marge's duty to be the good daughter, it is also her duty to be the good wife to her young husband. And that's all she's trying to do, get to know him, be close to him and love him, as is both her right and duty. As far as Marge is concerned, she's simply trying to do exactly what she's supposed to do, what society compels her to do, what she understands as her duty.

LF's comment is the first hint, but the penny really drops in the conversation between Marge and Cersei in the sept. Reread that conversation with the knowledge that Marge is no player but simply a girl with a dragon mother-in-law. Not only will it all make sense, but you'll see the other way doesn't actually work. Why it makes no sense that the alleged super player Marge in a power struggle with Cersei had no clue until then that it was Cersei who dropped her in the mess. Why she says Cersei will never let another woman love her child, despite it being nothing about that.

And it shows Marge has no knowledge of Joff's poisoning.

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It seems that book Margaery is doing her duty to her house, although she does not appear to have a strong personal lust for power nor any emotion attachment to any of her husbands. It's part of the reason Tywin is so disgusted with his own children: they consistently put their personal desires above the needs of their house, while Margaery is willing to put up with just about anything, including Joffrey, for hers.

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Cersei is, in part, projecting her own behaviour onto Margaery, she suspects her of doing exactly what she herself did when she became queen- elbowing out other people, pushing her own family into positions, putting spies everywhere, etc. She’s also motivated by the prophecy that a younger more beautiful queen will cast her down. Margaery seems like the front-runner for that role in Cersei’s eyes.

That being said, I don’t think that Margaery is exactly innocent of machinations. She does have the Sybell spying on her, and Tyna too. She also quite clearly competes with her for Tommen’s affection, and encourages him to stand up to her, which in my opinion is a good thing, but I doubt she’s just doing it because she wants Tommen to grow a pair, but rather does it to push Cersei aside.

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I wouldn't go as far as to say Margery is a pawn, she's proven at least half capable, but she knows she is a vehicle for her families ambition and their only path to more power. Beyond her father and grandmother's ambition, she initially entered the queen biz to back her brother's boyfriend. 

And Cersei definitely is just projecting her own paranoia on Margery. In Cersei's mind of course everyone is scheming and plotting against her, and who's better positioned than Margery?

They just had to spice of show Margery.

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51 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

In Cersei's mind of course everyone is scheming and plotting against her, and who's better positioned than Margery?

This is a good point. Cersei's POV is a real gift in AFFC, we see that her prime motivation is paranoia. 

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I. personally, remain conflicted about how much of a pawn and how much of a player book Margaery is. I agree whole-heartedly that she is a willing tool for her family's (father's) aspirations for power, and is doing what she was bidden, but there are blips here and there that she is pretty manipulative and cunning. Remember the whole "let's entice Sansa into wanting to run away to Highgarden" scheme?  Yes, she was probably genuinely happy about the idea of securing a beautiful, wealthy highborn heiress for her brother, but she dropped Sansa like a hot stone when that plot failed. 

She also was pretty darned manipulative of Tommen, she had well-thought out ideas about how to curry the public's favor, and she also quickly was able to discern the military significance of the Ironborn taking the Shield Islands.  

Lastly, I still suspect the whole thing with the keeping one rose from the bouquet to mask Tywin's stench - and Jaime's observation - was meant to show us that the girl is adaptable and cunning and that there is more to her than simply Dutiful Daughter. I also remain uncertain about what she knew about her grandmother's plot to murder her husband. She was certainly a participant in the conversation where Sansa divulged what a monster Joffrey is, and was sitting right there when Olenna decided he would not do, What did she think Lady Olenna was talking about, if not a plot to remove him?

 

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They drop Sansa because from their POV Sansa sold them out, Sansa rejected them. Manipulation is a very strong description for her trying to pry Tommen out from under Cersei so she can be a wife to him, and there is nothing dishonest about in any of it. Her currying the public's favour was by her simply being herself. She probably didn't give a second thought as to what Olenna planned to do about Joff, it's made apparent that while Olenna is loved she's not adhered, she's the old relative who is loved and respected but who you got to accept is inevitably going to say inappropriate things loudly.

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