How Jon and Dany will happen and the meaning of Bael's story

[chrisdaw]

Jon and Dany will happen and the story themes of how it will happen is interwoven in the wildling's culture, pointedly in the Bael story.

Quote

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

In summary, Bael the Bard through deception plucked the blue rose of Winterfell. What the blue rose of Winterfell represents in ASOIAF is simple enough.

Quote

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Jon is the blue winter rose. And he is the symbolic blue winter rose to Dany, she doesn't know it yet but this is her POV and her HOTU vision. To no-one else in the series is this symbolism presented in this manner.

In the Bael story the winter rose of Winterfell is plucked, plucked meaning stolen and to put it crudely fucked. In Dany's vision the blue flower relates to her being the bride of fire and is grouped with at least one other lover and possibly another to come. As the blue winter rose is Jon, Bael is Dany, she is going to pluck the blue winter rose, it's growing fresh from the wall of ice for her to just reach out and pluck.

The final component to explain is the deception. Bael used deception to pluck the winter rose, and so Dany will too. Why Dany will require deception is simple, Jon won't want her. The reasons why he won't will be many, but no-one really needs a reason to not want to sleep with someone, his heart simply won't be in it. So Dany will need to use deception to get him, to trick him, to steal him the Wildling way.

Dany will need to find a way to Jon's heart, fortunately for Dany there exists someone with both that knowledge and the means to make use of it.

Quote

"The heart is all that matters. Do not despair, Lord Snow. Despair is a weapon of the enemy, whose name may not be spoken. Your sister is not lost to you."

"I have no sister." The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

Melisandre knows of Jon's heart, she knows Arya is dear to him and uses the knowledge to ingratiate herself to him. But Arya isn't the only one Melisandre knows about being in his heart.

Quote

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander's Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon's heart leapt into his mouth. "Ygritte," he said.

"Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's.

Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. "You will freeze your fingers off," Jon warned.

Melisandre appears to Jon as Ygritte and they go on to speak about hearts. It is done on purpose, she is glamouring as Ygritte as she knows what Ygritte means to Jon. Glamouring she explains in her POV works best with some physical connection to the person whose appearance is being taken. Here she is glamouring as Ygritte in about the spot where Ygritte died.

Quote

Outside, he found he had no idea where he was going. He walked past the shell of the Lord Commander's Tower, where once he'd saved the Old Bear from a dead man; past the spot where Ygritte had died with that sad smile on her face; past the King's Tower where he and Satin and Deaf Dick Follard had waited for the Magnar and his Thenns; past the heaped and charred remains of the great wooden stair.

Dany will glamour as Ygritte in that same spot for the purpose of having Jon impregnate her, she will succeed, and they'll do it against the wall, and the pure Targaryen blooded PessTWP will allegedly be conceived. Melisandre will provide Dany the glamour as she will be convinced of the same necessity of Dany becoming pregnant by Jon that Dany will be.

Quote

He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.

Quote

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

Reverse foreshadowing on both accounts, Dany knows nothing too.

It is the treason for love, or blood.

Quote

three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Jon is her king, and she will know this, thus Dany will be committing treason. For his love, by using his love against him, or for his Targ blood.

He is the mount to bed.

Quote

three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

It's not about love, it's simply about getting pregnant by the right father.

The sex scene is foreshadowed, peculiarly, in a Theon chapter.

Quote

Theon made his way deeper into the ruined parts of the castle. As he picked through the shattered stone that had once been Maester Luwin's turret, ravens looked down from the gash in the wall above, muttering to one another. From time to time one would let out a raucous scream. He stood in the doorway of a bedchamber that had once been his own (ankle deep in snow that had blown in through a shattered window), visited the ruins of Mikken's forge and Lady Catelyn's sept. Beneath the Burned Tower, he passed Rickard Ryswell nuzzling at the neck of another one of Abel's washerwomen, the plump one with the apple cheeks and pug nose. The girl was barefoot in the snow, bundled up in a fur cloak. He thought she might be naked underneath. When she saw him, she said something to Ryswell that made him laugh aloud.

Beneath the Burned Tower, a northman and one of Abel's washerwomen who has Ygrittes characteristics, naked beneath a fur cloak.

And back we come to Bael the Bard. Abel is of course an anagram of Bael, which is why Mance chose the name, as he is entering WF with a false identity to steal the daughter of WF. Thus one of Abel's washerwomen is a suitable character to foreshadow the scene.

Dany glamouring as Ygritte to steal Jon requires a few magical possibilities which GRRM has taken the time and effort to establish so that when it occurs the reader is not left feeling as though he changed the rules or pulled something out of the blue to make it all happen.

- The first is that Melisandre knows what Ygritte means to Jon, and is able to Glamour her, as shown in the quoted scene above albeit possibly she can only glamour as her in that spot where Ygritte died.

- The second is that Melisandre can make a glamour for another person. And this we are shown through her glamouring of Mance as Rattleshirt. Mance, Abel, Bael.

And now the whore Dancy. Dancy, named sort of like Mance and one C from Dany, Mance's C, and who looks like Ygritte.

Quote

"Next time, perhaps." Tyrion had no doubt that Dancy would be a lively handful. She was pug-nosed and bouncy, with freckles and a mane of thick red hair that tumbled down past her waist. But he had Shae waiting for him at the manse.

 Dancy has good reason for propositioning Tyrion, as she made herself a wager, the circumstances are this.

Quote

As the black-skinned girl led him up the stairs, she said, "Poor Dancy. She has a fortnight to get my lord to choose her. Elsewise she loses her black pearls to Marei."

So Dancy has to get her lord to bed her. In this case the lord is Tyrion, but as Dancy is foreshadowing Dany here Tyrion is in the place of Jon. To make that leap and to tie it back to Bael the Bard there is this line about Dancy.

Quote

Two other girls sat playing at tiles before a leaded glass window. The freckled one wore a chain of blue flowers in her honeyed hair.

Blue flowers, the symbolism for Jon, Dany's symbolism for Jon. But more than that, note the correlation between the sentence and Dany's HOTU vision.

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

Chain - chink, sweet air - honeyed hair.

And so, the whore Dancy, named so similarly to Dany, who wears blue flowers and looks like Ygritte, is on a quest to have her lord bed her lest she loses her black pearls.

Black pearls foreshadow dragons, by way of common sense seeing as dragons are valuable and rare as are pearls and Dany's own dragon is black, but also by way of Bellegere Otherys, the woman called the Black Pearl who took an Aegon for a lover and birthed children who would become courtesans and inherit the name the Black Pearl. The Black Pearls are known to be of dragon blood.

Quote

Many of the courtesans of Braavos are celebrated in song and story, and a few have even been immortalized in bronze or marble. In the Seven Kingdoms, the most storied and infamous of these are the Black Pearls. The first woman to bear that name was the captain and pirate queen Bellegere Otherys, who reigned briefly as one of the nine paramours of King Aegon IV Targaryen, and bore him a bastard daughter, Bellenora, the second Black Pearl, a famous courtesan acclaimed by the singers of her day as the most beautiful woman in all the world. Her descendants became courtesans as well, each in turn known as the Black Pearl, and each having in her veins some measure of the blood of the dragon to this very day.

And so Dancy's predicament will be that of Dany's. Dany will need to bed her lord, Jon, to save her black pearl, Drogon. She will need a pure dragon blooded father for her to be able to bring a child to term, to birth the prince (actually a princess) that was promised to wake her dragon from stone. Lightbringer, her dragon's third head. It won't go that way, prophesy having lead her astray she will need only to sacrifice herself to wake Drogon from stone, which will happen, and when it does Drogon will turn into a Balerion sized and style dragon. That is why Bael the bard, who is foreshadowing Dany, is named Bael, for Balerion, and why the Black Pearl's third child was named Balerion. Another child will not be required, Dany was always the third head and only necessary sacrifice. But I digress and for the sake of simplicity I won't explain the meaning of the ends of the Bael story here as this topic is meant only for broadly covering the conception and deception.

 

[velo-knight]

So you think the story will revolve around Dany raping Jon? That's a ....unique way of looking at it. I hope not.

[Gronzag]

Its interesting that huge majority of Dany fans want her to end up with Jon, while at the same time most Jon fans would rather see him with anybody else, or even dead, than with Daenerys Of Many Titles.

[velo-knight]

15 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

Its interesting that huge majority of Dany fans want her to end up with Jon, while at the same time most Jon fans would rather see him with anybody else, or even dead, than with Daenerys Of Many Titles.

I like both, and I can see each of them with pretty much anyone. I just want a happy ending at this point.

[usama]

Dude you're over reading too much.

Anything can make sense if you want to make it so.

Btw why on earth would Dany be so horny for Jon, to birth PTWTP? I hope ur not mistaking her motives with Rhaegar, all she wants is her father's kingdom.

[khal drogon]

18 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Its interesting that huge majority of Dany fans want her to end up with Jon, while at the same time most Jon fans would rather see him with anybody else, or even dead, than with Daenerys Of Many Titles.

Not a huge majority. There are more Dany fans who hate the ship because incest. And there are us who would want Dany nowhere near that boring special snowflake.

To the OP, this is the weirdest Dany theory I have seen and there are theories that involves time traveling fetuses. Dany glamouring to get impregnated by Jon? Why on planetos would she do that? Even Melisandre wouldn't do stuff like this. 

[Schwarze Sonne]

The Dashing Lord Snow! Why else would Dany go for Jon!?

[Roswell]

chrisdaw,

I appreciate the effort that you put into this theory but it smacks of desperation to make Dany a villain, which she is not and Jon a hero-victim, which he is not.  There will be no need for her to entice Jon.  Jon is an unattractive, primitive-faced guy.  It certainly will not be physical attraction.  Jon is not her king.  The right to rule passed from King Aerys II to Viserys and on to Daenerys.  Aerys disinherited Rhaegar, and thus, his line.  Rhaegar's children do not get to inherit the throne.  Aerys would have seen to that.  He doesn't want a half-Stark (half-dog) to inherit his throne.  The Starks were his enemies.  He just barbecued Rickard, strangled Brandon, and ordered Eddard's death.  The significance of blue rose lies in the theory that a male deflowered a Stark virgin and got her with child.  Both Mance and Rhaegar fit this profile, of the musician who seduced a Stark and got her with a bastard.  The bastard then goes on to sire the next generation of Starks.  The Starks originate from bastard stock, from a wildling called Bael. 

 

 

[Roswell]

4 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

The Dashing Lord Snow! Why else would Dany go for Jon!?

She has no reason to even like Jon.  Jon is a traitor to the night watch. 

[khal drogon]

6 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

The Dashing Lord Snow! Why else would Dany go for Jo!?

I wouldn't call him dashing. Book Jon Snow has a certain charm but he is nowhere near the pretty boy Kit Harington version. 

 

2 hours ago, The Transporter said:

chrisdaw,

I appreciate the effort that you put into this theory but it smacks of desperation to make Dany a villain, which she is not and Jon a hero-victim, which he is not.  There will be no need for her to entice Jon.  Jon is an unattractive, primitive-faced guy.  It certainly will not be physical attraction.  Jon is not her king.  The right to rule passed from King Aerys II to Viserys and on to Daenerys.  Aerys disinherited Rhaegar, and thus, his line.  Rhaegar's children do not get to inherit the throne.  Aerys would have seen to that.  He doesn't want a half-Stark (half-dog) to inherit his throne.  The Starks were his enemies.  He just barbecued Rickard, strangled Brandon, and ordered Eddard's death.  The significance of blue rose lies in the theory that a male deflowered a Stark virgin and got her with child.  Both Mance and Rhaegar fit this profile, of the musician who seduced a Stark and got her with a bastard.  The bastard then goes on to sire the next generation of Starks.  The Starks originate from bastard stock, from a wildling called Bael. 

 

 

It looks desperate. I don't understand why in these Jon/Dany theories Jon always hates Dany but Dany does like him. Why they both won't have mutual respect? It looks like Jon fans project their hate for Dany into their theories that's why they say he will hate her. But also Dany will always be interested in him so that Jon remains desirable and likeable and also he could reject her.

[chrisdaw]

Dany will seek Jon to father her child because of his bloodline and nothing more. The cost of dragons is death, and particularly dead children, Rhaego and Hazzea. Drogo's dragon blooded child allowed him to second life Drogon and Euron will do the same, only his blood and nature will be a corrupting force, turning Drogon into the stone beast, unable to breathe fire and useless as a weapon. Dany will seek a father of premium Targaryen stock to father on her a child to sacrifice and return Drogon to a regular fire breathing dragon so that she can save the world. What is a bastard child's life against all other life? The price she paid before, Rhaego and Hazzea, if I look back I am lost. Dancy's quest to bed her lord to save her black pearls. The third head of the dragon, there is power in king's blood, the PWTWP come to wake dragons from stone. Jon will not be her first attempt, Aurane Waters and Tyrion will fail her as she will miscarry their child within the temple of her fiery womb, fire consumes, but ice preserves, with Jon she will succeed.

On the other side Jon will have soured even further on prophesy and magic, Stannis being the next lesson in not to trust it after the whole Arya fiasco. And Jon will not accept sacrifice, even to save the world, as Ned repeatedly refused to allow harm to come to children, from Jon to Dany, Cersei's children and his own, it is for Jon to follow in his footsteps and refuse the Targaryen way, choosing Stark over Targ. But he's not likely to know what Dany intends for the child as she's probably not going to tell him, she may tell him she needs his child but not why specifically, he'll find that out later. He might also have an issue with incest, and may not find Dany attractive as by the time she gets to him she will be fat or chubby, having been pregnant five times before, Rhaego, the end of ADWD, another one probably Euron's, Waters and Tyrion. And Jon's not going to like Dany because she's been playing the game of thrones in the south with her dragons while he's been freezing his arse off watching his friends die and getting himself killed trying to protect the realm when a simple flight up north from Dany could have saved everyone the trouble. And now when she does arrive she'll have no fucking dragon anymore. And most importantly Jon is utterly opposed to fathering a bastard and still loves Ygritte.

Dany will have her way, as per the first post, but she'll not get to sacrifice the child as Jon will prevent her, ice vs fire, ice preserves and fire consumes. But she will give birth to her, a little baby girl with the stub of tail. The child will bring about Dany's death, and loosely bring about the ends of the prophesies. If Dany needed to sacrifice a Targaryen child to second life a dragon, then she already did so with Rhaego, but she may not have even needed to as she herself is pure Targ, total fire, the last dragon, probably only Euron and Drogo needed to do that shit to get in. The child will not die, but Dany will, and she will second life Drogon, joining Drogo and Rhaego within the dragon, the third head. Her sun and stars returned to her, as he was, after she's had a living child. Her pure blood will remove Euron's taint and Drogon will awaken from stone, the PessTWP, and he will have back his fire, Dany's fire, Lightbringer. Pass through the shadow (death) to touch the light (second life of a fire breathing dragon). And Drogon will not be just regular Drogon, due to Dany being Dany he will be supersized with super hot fire, Balerion like, and as Balerion she will end the Long Night in the nick of time. Hence Bael the bard for Balerion, hence the Black Pearl's Balerion and desire for hot sauce, hence Dany's dream aboard Balerion where she wakes up triumphantly in its belly, the wake the dragon dream where her blood melts the stone, where she turns into a dragon and passes through the red door (death to second life as the dragon's fire) to discover Rhaegar is not the last dragon but she is.

It is why the HOTU visions end when she embraces what the people need, her, her fire, her life.

Quote

They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . .

.

[Lord Varys]

As a theory, this is even worse than bad fan fiction. The whole setting of Euron transforming Drogon and Dany needing another child of her own body to sacrifice it to repair her dragon is nonsensical speculation. It is about as likely to happen as Cersei suddenly deciding that she should marry a widowed Stannis (for love) or Robb Stark returning from the dead as a half-human, half-wolf monstrosity.

There are even strange interpretations of rather clear events in the books - like Mel appearing to Jon like Ygritte. That clearly isn't a glamor because we know that a glamor is a rather complicated spell. You need an anchor for the spell, usually a jewel, and you need to activate it with a magical word.

It is much more likely that Mel used one of her powders - the one that entices and arouses other people - on Jon, catching him with his guard down. He saw what he wanted to see not what was actually there.

Melisandre's hair resembles Ygritte's closely enough for him to make such a mistake. There is nothing magical about that. In fact, it is even possible that Jon made such a mistake all by himself. Ygritte isn't dead for all that long and Mel is the first beautiful redhead he meets afterwards. Usually people see dead loved ones rather often amidst some crowds or in people that share one or two characteristics of the dead person.

There is also no need to to connect the Bael story to Dany's story. Bael's story is, in a sense, a historical variation of the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon is just the result of that affair. But there is no reason to believe that another 'love story' in this series is going to be another version of that love story. In fact, it would be both trite and boring to get another version of it because it wouldn't be all that surprising. Keep in mind that George actually tries to surprise us in this story. There won't be another Red Wedding, either, now that we got one such wedding.

[YOVMO]

On 12/24/2016 at 10:54 AM, Gronzag said:

Its interesting that huge majority of Dany fans want her to end up with Jon, while at the same time most Jon fans would rather see him with anybody else, or even dead, than with Daenerys Of Many Titles.

It is impossible to be a fan of any character and simultaneously hope they wind up with Danerys, Friendzoner of Dorne, Exiler of Mormonts, Cowboyer of Drogo, Watery Pooper of the Great Grass Sea

 

In truth, I can't see Dany's leading anywhere other than death. There just is no place in the story for her

[Drogonthedread]

On 12/24/2016 at 9:24 PM, Gronzag said:

Its interesting that huge majority of Dany fans want her to end up with Jon, while at the same time most Jon fans would rather see him with anybody else, or even dead, than with Daenerys Of Many Titles.

Which shows the maturity and open mindedness of those dany fans you mention who accept there is a possiblity of that happening instead of acting childishly and in denial ..

And also because most dany fans like me also tend to like Jon too...

 

As to the OP .,I  can only pray to GRRM we get the TWOW as quickly as possible 

[Drogonthedread]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I wouldn't call him dashing. Book Jon Snow has a certain charm but he is nowhere near the pretty boy Kit Harington version. 

 

It looks desperate. I don't understand why in these Jon/Dany theories Jon always hates Dany but Dany does like him. Why they both won't have mutual respect? It looks like Jon fans project their hate for Dany into their theories that's why they say he will hate her. But also Dany will always be interested in him so that Jon remains desirable and likeable and also he could reject her.

So that she will be humiliated and shamed and shunned away by the precious jon ..

It is as you say projecting and wishfully hoping that their personal hatred towards a fictional character can be shared by the fictional character they love ..

[Orphalesion]

I can see Jon and Dany happening, just not the way you describe it, too much glamour and deception.Hopefully when everything goes down we'll learn what the "Song of Ice and Fire" means.

If theyget together I doubt it will be love and they won't be exactly happy with one another, it will be a political marriage of convenience and/or necessity. 

11 hours ago, The Transporter said:

She has no reason to even like Jon.  Jon is a traitor to the night watch. 

Nobody cares. The Night's Watch is antiquated and batshit and hopefully will be destroyed by the time the story is over.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I find myself wondering if this was the result of some kind of late night Christmas booze fuelled bet about concocting the most ridiculous theory. 

But in short; just no.  

[kissdbyfire]

50 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I find myself wondering if this was the result of some kind of late night Christmas booze fuelled bet about concocting the most ridiculous theory. 

But in short; just no.  

It's like you just read my mind. 

I really don't see any of the textual "evidence" provided as actual evidence, but rather a very far-fetched and... erhm... creative personal interpretation. 

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's like you just read my mind. 

I really don't see any of the textual "evidence" provided as actual evidence, but rather a very far-fetched and... erhm... creative personal interpretation. 

Though to be fair that can be said about a LOT of the "theories" around here.

[kissdbyfire]

43 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Though to be fair that can be said about a LOT of the "theories" around here.

To be sure... And many don't even present any quotes or textual support at all, and that's clearly not the case here. Still, I find it extremely unlikely, bordering on crackpot.