How Jon and Dany will happen and the meaning of Bael's story

[Lord Varys]

Polygamy was never officially outlawed but there is no hint that it was ever legal, either. The only people in the Seven Kingdoms who ever successfully practiced polygamy were kings - two Targaryen kings (the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel) and at least one Gardener and one Durrandon king. But (powerful) kings are above the law. Their sons or brothers aren't.

There are no precedents for Targaryen princes successfully practicing polygamy. Prince Maegor tried it but his half-brother Aenys I exiled him to Pentos, and the High Septon publicly (and successfully) condemned this so-called marriage as adultery and fornication. All while Maegor was riding Balerion the Black Dread.

In that sense the idea that Prince Rhaegar ever officially practiced polygamy with impunity makes no sense at all. Around the time of/after Harrenhal Rhaegar and Aerys II were on very bad terms. The Targaryen king controlled the Faith, not the Prince of Dragonstone. Only with Aerys II's full support could Rhaegar have been able to push the High Septon to allow him to take a second wife while his first was still alive. The same is true for an annulment. Rhaegar could never have done that without his father's and the High Septon's permission.

Chances that Aerys II did allow Rhaegar to marry Lyanna Stark are as close to zero as they can possibly be. And with the High Septon residing in KL there is little chance that this man took Rhaegar's side rather than Aerys'.

This doesn't mean that Rhaegar didn't have some sort of wedding ceremony involving him and Lyanna. That's certainly possible. But in any society where monogamy is the strict rule such a bigamous marriage is invalid by default. Only if Rhaegar and Lyanna had gotten permission from the Faith beforehand would such a marriage be likely to be accepted. And even that would certainly not cause the Martells, the Starks, or Lord Robert Baratheon to accept it. Even the Faith and Aerys II could change their minds whenever they wanted because polygamy was a controversial topic. If/while the public opinion was with Rhaegar and Lyanna the Faith, Aerys II, and other people might not condemn a Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage. But as soon as the tide turned they could use this whole thing to destroy both of them.

The fact that we never hear anything about Lyanna being Rhaegar's wife doesn't mean there was no wedding between these two. But it means that such a marriage was never formalized or recognized as an official marriage. And only if Lyanna Stark had been recognized as Aerys II's daughter-in-law could we reasonably assume that any children from such a union would be considered legitimate.

[chrisdaw]

To round out that which relates to the Wildlings and the coupling of Jon and Dany, and the sun/moon symbolism.

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"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."

He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."

"Aye," Ygritte agreed. "It always is."

"Tell me," Jon urged her. It would be hours before Qhorin came up, and a story would help keep him awake. "I want to hear this tale of yours."

"Might be you won't like it much."

"I'll hear it all the same."

"Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider."

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said.

The introduction to the Bael story regarding perspective is about Dany when she comes to Jon after she's won and lost the throne. Dany will be perceived by some as a saviour, a liberator of slaves, a hero. To others a murderer, robber and well a keeper and looser of rapists.

And what she'll be trying to do is a matter of perspective. On one hand it's child murder, on the other she's willing to trade her child's life to save all the lives on Westeros.

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She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

The ending points to either Jon killing Dany or the child. It will be Jon, execution for the intended sacrifice or killing her in the act of preventing the sacrifice.

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Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

Jon and Dany, same blood, same as Jon and Ygritte according to the song. The way this is written suggests Jon's and Dany's child will become Lord (Lady) of Winterfell.

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"No, but—"

"You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

"I will not father a bastard."

The bolded, spoken by Tormund, signals Jon's mindset for a time after Dany has stolen his seed. Having been seduced and tricked into fathering a bastard as he has never wanted, he will cast off all responsibility. That will come to an end though, probably when he finds out what Dany intends for the child.

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So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

Dany is the wanderer of the red waste.

There are seven stars dubbed the wanderers, the Faith have allotted each to a god, the red wanderer is the Smith's. As previously explained the AA story relating to the smithing of Lightbringer is a foretelling of Dany's attempts to mother a child.

To the Wildlings the red wanderer is the theif, relating to the stealing of a woman. As explained in the OP Dany will steal Jon, Bael stealing the winter rose. A reversal of gender but the principle remains the same.

Red wanderer = Smith = Thief = Dany.

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And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted.

Dany the thief and Jon is obviously the Moonmaid. Here in Dunk and Egg GRRM places the Moonmaid with the Ghost in his description of stars.

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Dunk need only lift his eyes to find familiar friends: the Stallion and the Sow, the King's Crown and the Crone's Lantern, the Galley, Ghost, and Moonmaid.

The moon and sun are common symbols for the union, though the moonmaid is not the same as the moon. The symbolism kicks off with Dany and Drogo, each other's moon and sun, which runs into the dragon's birthing legend.

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Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."

Drogo the sun, Dany the moon (egg for her eggs), the two couple to create Rhaego, and for the sacrifice of that child comes dragons. The dragon's fire owing to Drogo's fiery soul, that which left his body for Drogon leaving behind a living but lifeless body which stares longingly at the sun.

Euron will take the place of Drogo, dragon loses it's fire and breathes instead shadowflame, and Dany needs to find herself a new sun to return the dragon fire, another moon to kiss the sun, return dragons.

In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

The alternate AA story.

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In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.

Jon is the sun, the shame is at having betrayed oaths and impregnated Dany with a bastard child, the birth of the child being the cure. The child will be a girl and have a (stub of a) monkey's tail, and when he sees her Jon will no longer feel ashamed of having brought her into the world.

Some similar imagery in the actual AA story.

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"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

Note the ecstasy.

Now back to the scene of Mel's glamouring of Ygritte.

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"Shadows." The world seemed darker when he said it.

"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall.

The tale from the Qarth trader has the sun and moon kissing and producing dragons, moon Dany and sun Drogo couple resulting in pregnancy and dragons, and here we have foreshadowing of sun Jon impregnating Dany by Dany's design to once again produce dragons. Jon's shadow being the result, and the meaning behind this one.

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How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

Putting aside the foreshadowing symbols in the Melisandre passage above, the simple point it makes is that a person's actions has greater run on effects, a favourite of GRRM's it's the same as Varys' point to Tyrion regarding his shadow.

To Jon the act of impregnating Dany will be shameful, fathering a bastard and the breaking of vows, and so fitting it would be that his act bring with it dire consequences. Not completely sure on this part but even so.

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"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Against the wall where Ygritte died Jon will break his vow and impregnate Dany. And so there may the wall crack and fall. Cracking is a common word through all of this, as it was in the dragon's arrival.

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The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst . . .

If the wall were to crack there and fall it would add to why the sun was so ashamed it hid it's face, and be a posthumous triumph for Ygritte as her dear wish will have been achieved through Dany taking her form.

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Ygritte slammed the heel of her hand into his chest, so hard it stung even through his layers of wool, mail, and boiled leather. "I wasn't frightened. You know nothing, Jon Snow."

"Why are you crying, then?"

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"

And finally off on a bit of a tangent but relating to some of the above symbolism. Jon will be KITN but never on the IT, but Dany will none the less accept him as her king, hence why the treason for love is a treason. Dany is the moon and Jon is the moonmaid.

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The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust-dry ruins of Shandystone,

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On ‎2‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 8:30 AM, maudisdottir said:

I find it laughable that Jon would only sleep with Dany if she was glamoured as Ygritte.

I'm not disputing that Jon loved Ygritte - he did, and he mourned her.  But he got over her, and I'm not convinced she was the great love of his life.  She was his first love, but it was out of necessity, and I don't think Ygritte is the kind of girl Jon would be happy with long term.  She was annoying and rude (but with many good qualities which made me like her character and feel sad when she died, but it had to happen to move Jon's story along) and Jon paired off with her reluctantly.  He loved her anyway because he has a good heart.

And because she died she'll always be romanticised to him - his first, dead love.  Yet he thinks Val is the loveliest thing he's seen in a long time, so he's moving on.

Silly, the point of Val and of her being so lovely is that as beautiful as he thinks she is, she could not tempt him from his vows. Beauty will not sway him.

[Drogonthedread]

17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I find it laughable that Jon would only sleep with Dany if she was glamoured as Ygritte.

I'm not disputing that Jon loved Ygritte - he did, and he mourned her.  But he got over her, and I'm not convinced she was the great love of his life.  She was his first love, but it was out of necessity, and I don't think Ygritte is the kind of girl Jon would be happy with long term.  She was annoying and rude (but with many good qualities which made me like her character and feel sad when she died, but it had to happen to move Jon's story along) and Jon paired off with her reluctantly.  He loved her anyway because he has a good heart.

And because she died she'll always be romanticised to him - his first, dead love.  Yet he thinks Val is the loveliest thing he's seen in a long time, so he's moving on.

 

So what you are trying to say is that Jon will only sleep with dany if she glamoured herself as Val

Maye one should start a thread about glamoured like val and as Arya too just in case 

[khal drogon]

What are you smoking?

[maudisdottir]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

"He loved her anyway because he has a good heart"?

Sorry, @maudisdottir, but I'm gonna have to

 

What I meant is he'd never been in love before (and he was a virgin) so because he was a good guy he genuinely loved Ygritte, not just put up with her for the sake of his espionage while secretly loathing her.  Which doesn't necessarily mean she was the love of his life.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

What I meant is he'd never been in love before (and he was a virgin) so because he was a good guy he genuinely loved Ygritte, not just put up with her for the sake of his espionage while secretly loathing her.  Which doesn't necessarily mean she was the love of his life.

But it doesn't work like that. He didn't fall in love with her because he's a nice bloke or has a good heart or whatever. That's an oversimplification, at the very least, and it takes much away from Ygritte's character, like she doesn't matter. People (real or fictional, if written well) don't fall in love because they're good; they fall in love because they see something special in the other person, something that attracts them and complements them, and a million other things, big and small. And Jon came to see many of those things in Ygritte, that's why he fell in love with her. 

 

[maudisdottir]

Well yes it is an oversimplification, but then I don't set much store by Ygritte's importance to Jon in the long run.  He loved her out of necessity, and he's the kind of person (emo/bastard) who wouldn't think it right to be in a relationship with a woman without some sort of love.  I think he was fond of her, and grew to love her because of their closeness, but IMO theirs wasn't some great love that he will never be able to achieve with anyone else.  A lot of people think he will never get over her, but I don't believe he was ever that into her, and he mourns her because he feels bad about his betrayal more than anything else.

[Lord Varys]

Jon just had the hots for Ygritte because she was hitting on him. He wasn't in love with her in any 'deeper sense' (if we assume such a love exists). He is in the middle of his adolescence, full of hormones, expecting to never fuck a woman (or a man) and she wasn't all that ugly (although not all that pretty, either) and essentially forced herself upon him.

It is quite clear that these two have nothing in common aside from physical attraction (once the hormones have taken over).

We can be more than reasonably sure that Jon would have replaced Ygritte had he actually joined the wildlings and grown into a handsome war leader catching the eye of a really beautiful woman like Val.

[maudisdottir]

^Thats what I'm getting at, thank you.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 25. 12. 2016 at 11:45 AM, khal drogon said:

Not a huge majority. There are more Dany fans who hate the ship because incest.

How ironic, since she came from this very situation. Aerys, Rhaella and in fact she would be cool with it. Ilogical point of view.

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To the OP, this is the weirdest Dany theory I have seen and there are theories that involves time traveling fetuses. Dany glamouring to get impregnated by Jon? Why on planetos would she do that? Even Melisandre wouldn't do stuff like this. 

That's where we agree. The most bizarre theory about Dany because why in the world would the most beautiful woman in the world glamour herself for a guy. Of course certain people called her this way and we don'tknow  what Jon will do but certainly doesn't have to glamour herself for it. 

On 26. 12. 2016 at 4:50 PM, Drogonthedread said:

Which shows the maturity and open mindedness of those dany fans you mention who accept there is a possiblity of that happening instead of acting childishly and in denial ..

And also because most dany fans like me also tend to like Jon too...

 

As to the OP .,I  can only pray to GRRM we get the TWOW as quickly as possible 

You like Jon? Yeah right. So how come you never defend the guy? Said someting nice or the very comment your just reacted to calling him a boring special snowflake.

Truth be told, a lot of Dany fans dislike Jon or Jon fans Dany. Jealousy, envy, rivalry? I don't care but it's boring to read this in every thread. Jibes at each other characters.

[PirateVergo]

I don't want Jon anywhere near Daenerys.

First of all it would be the very cliché for them to end up together then you can add how Jon doesn't fit Dany's taste at all and how he's expressed disgust learning that Axell Forent had watched his own kin get burned alive (something Dany did as well)

And let's not even get started on how she has to take the spotlight everwhere she goes, the north,the wall, the WW have always been Jon's storyline, let Dany have her own and become queen, I don't want her to become the protagonist of a story she hasn't been involved with at all, much less a saviour with her dragons like everybody expect her to be.

In fact Jon and Dany hating each other would be so much better imo, she hates Starks and anyone related to them after all and Jon will never be a Targaryen no matter what blood he may carry.

[khal drogon]

On 1/8/2017 at 5:39 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

How ironic, since she came from this very situation. Aerys, Rhaella and in fact she would be cool with it. Ilogical point of view.

That's where we agree. The most bizarre theory about Dany because why in the world would the most beautiful woman in the world glamour herself for a guy. Of course certain people called her this way and we don'tknow  what Jon will do but certainly doesn't have to glamour herself for it. 

You like Jon? Yeah right. So how come you never defend the guy? Said someting nice or the very comment your just reacted to calling him a boring special snowflake.

Truth be told, a lot of Dany fans dislike Jon or Jon fans Dany. Jealousy, envy, rivalry? I don't care but it's boring to read this in every thread. Jibes at each other characters.

It's me who called Jon boring and it is what I feel about him. What's there to defend? I don't go on making theories about how Jon will glamor and rape people.

The rivalry is because of fans I guess. I have realized that I don't care if Jon one upped Dany or vice-versa happens but the irrational hate bandwagon around Dany irritates me. This intense dislike comes from their fans not from the characters themselves. There are not many fan theories about Jon doing dishonorable things in future or his incompetence scrutinized or his sanity questioned as much as Dany. Since most of the venom spewed on her are from Jon fans it naturally creates this rivalry.

[khal drogon]

21 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

I don't want Jon anywhere near Daenerys.

First of all it would be the very cliché for them to end up together then you can add how Jon doesn't fit Dany's taste at all and how he's expressed disgust learning that Axell Forent had watched his own kin get burned alive (something Dany did as well)

And let's not even get started on how she has to take the spotlight everwhere she goes, the north,the wall, the WW have always been Jon's storyline, let Dany have her own and become queen, I don't want her to become the protagonist of a story she hasn't been involved with at all, much less a saviour with her dragons like everybody expect her to be.

In fact Jon and Dany hating each other would be so much better imo, she hates Starks and anyone related to them after all and Jon will never be a Targaryen no matter what blood he may carry.

He was not disgusted by Stannis or Melisandre herself how is he going to get disgusted by a girl who can't do anything to stop his death. 

GRRM doesn't restrict story-lines based on locations. If Dany's arc involves fighting against others it will happen and it becomes her storyline. Jon's could exist parallely. And the different plot threads has to merge. 

Their hate is going to be short-lived as it is irrational. Dany can't have the same stand after knowing the truth and Jon can't change the truth that he was born to a Targaryen. I don't want them to be couples but I want them to learn and mature and be allies.