How will LF meet his end?

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 hours ago, finger said:

Happy new year!

The girl described by TGOHH is definitely Sansa. The feast is Joff's wedding, and the purple serpents with venom are the crystals of strangler in her hairnet.

I agree. But I don't believe she was the same maid--exactly. 

[Joey Crows]

I'm a fan of chaos. Both LF contrived and GRRM conceived. So I think LF lasts and lasts. When all is said and done chaos reigns and LF lives!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think LF will meet his fate after he and Sansa return to WF.

I think the snow castle scene is the third of GRRM's trifecta of foreshadowing technique for LF's death. 

#1 Sansa on the battlements wishing she could place Joffrey's (her father's killer's) head on a spike. 

#2 The GoHH's dream.

#3 the snow castle scene. 

As we know he tends to get more explicit with each of the clues, firstly Sansa wishes to place Joffrey's head on a spike, but what she is wishing this for is in regards to him being the cause of her father's death. But we know it is really LF who caused his death. So What she really would be hoping for if she had that knowledge is LF's head on a spike. 

number two is pretty straight up, we know the Ghost has prophetic dreams, and we connect Sansa to the maid with serpents in her hair after the Purple Wedding. Note the deaths of Joffrey & LF are once more intertwined here. Linking the two clues even more. This one also gives us a glimpse of what to look out for in our next clue. A castle made of snow & a Giant. 

The third clue is pretty explicit. Sansa is building a castle of snow at the Eyrie and LF comes along and assists her, he provides a lot of the hard materials and know how. And together they accomplish the task. But no sooner is the castle made, than a Giant comes along and tries to break the doors down. And Sansa tears the head from its body and mounts it on a spike above her gate house.

 

Bringing us right back to where we were at clue #1, Sansa wishing to mount the head of her father's killer on her gatehouse wall. Now, things are made even more explicit here, because we the reader need to connect LF with Giants in order to fully grasp the clue. So GRRM has LF stride right over the walls of the snow Winterfell. And in the very next chapter, Arya passes under the Titan of Braavos, whose head is House Baelish's sigil. And he has her think how the Titan could stride right over the walls of Winterfell.  

Which loops us back to our very first clue that Peytr Baelish is a villain, in Brans vision when he see's a great stone armoured Giant bearing down upon his two sisters, and they are watched over by a Hound faced Knight and a Golden Knight.  The Hound is, of course, Sandor Clegane, who has watched over protected and assisted both Stark girls, and the Golden Knight is Jaime who has sworn to return them both to their mother, and in turn, this has placed him as protector too. Peytr Baelish is the sinister Giant who armours himself in Stone (The seemingly unthreatening nature of his house being nothing but a small rocky outcrop in the Vale. making him seemingly unthreatening) And has nothing inside but thick black blood. IE: he's empty inside and is utterly corrupted/poisoned by his bitterness and desire for power. 

 

In conclusion, Sansa is bringing him down at WF, by beheading him.  

[mankytoes]

My only objection to Sansa bringing down Littlefinger is that it seems too obvious.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

34 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

My only objection to Sansa bringing down Littlefinger is that it seems too obvious.

It only seems obvious because of all the foreshadowing. If you read the books and missed all the foreshadowing. Or didn't have access to internet forums with huge quantities of pooled analysis. I'm willing to bet it isn't really that obvious. 

Besides tell that to all those who seriously don't think it possible that "stupid" Sansa could be the one to defeat him. 

[finger]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger is going to last throughout the entire game of thrones section of the books. He is going to die as a hero in some future fight against an army of Others and wights. His crimes will never come to light.

The only alternative is that he and Catelyn are reunited again, and she is going to have some fun at his expense.

Allow me to disagree. I can't imagine LF doing something heroic. He'll be killed or he'll prevail, and I lean to the latter.

My question is, why should Sansa bring him down? Actually, he's he only helping hand she's found (providing she takes the Tyrells' friendship as an interest in her claim to the North.) Her aunt failed her, her siblings are gone, her father's bannermen have betrayed the Starks. Compare with what she knows of LF.

And I always have in mind that she's responsible for her own father's death. That makes her prone to "understand" other people's reasons, and "consider" that one's acts can have unintended consequences. She'd love to think that LF didn't aim to hurt her parents more that she did. Much more so if he gives her back Winterfell. (Irony intended.) He's useful to Sansa and she'll let him be.

As for his other foes, he's left the worst over, he'll manage to win them over. There are a lot of traitors in the North, or the Riverlands, to his "partisans" to be rewarded when he prevails. New lords will probably deny any crime form their benefactor.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

25 minutes ago, finger said:

My question is, why should Sansa bring him down? Actually, he's he only helping hand she's found (providing she takes the Tyrells' friendship as an interest in her claim to the North.)

If you consider Littlefinger keeping her a prisoner, holding the threat of Joffrey's murder over her head ("Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?") and molesting her to be a "helping hand" then yeah, Littlefinger is helping Sansa.

She's aware that he's not helping her all that much. She accused him of exactly that at the end of the snow castle building scene, when she directly told him that he should have brought her back home, as he said he would do. She's only staying there with him because she has nowhere else to go and no way to get there even if she did have somewhere she could go.

[finger]

28 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

If you consider Littlefinger keeping her a prisoner, holding the threat of Joffrey's murder over her head ("Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?") and molesting her to be a "helping hand" then yeah, Littlefinger is helping Sansa.

She's aware that he's not helping her all that much. She accused him of exactly that at the end of the snow castle building scene, when she directly told him that he should have brought her back home, as he said he would do. She's only staying there with him because she has nowhere else to go and no way to get there even if she did have somewhere she could go.

I don't see things the same way. Sansa was a prisoner at KL, from where LF had her fled. And he confessed to have plotted Joff's murder. Anyhow, he's helping her the most or, who else? It's Marillion who molested her, and Lysa who tried to throw her through the Moon Gate. Should she look for Roose Bolton's help?

As you say, she has nowhere else to go, and I doubt she will dare trust anyone else better than LF. Future is hard to be predicted, but my best guess is LF will earn some high ladyship for her, then have her marry Aegon. Sansa will be queen at last, and LF the Hand.

Provided someday will be able to read the story.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, finger said:

Allow me to disagree. I can't imagine LF doing something heroic. He'll be killed or he'll prevail, and I lean to the latter.

The idea is that he might be doing something heroic by accident. Say, he is raising an army as part of his game after he has become the Godfather of Food in the South due to the fact that he bought and stored more food than anybody else. Such an army could then inadvertently been drawn into a battle with the Others and wights where Littlefinger is going to meet his end in a way he never expected he would meet it - sacrificing himself to save Sansa or something of that sort, once he realizes that the game makes no sense if the Others are icing the board.

That was a pet theory of mine back before ADwD came out. The original idea was that he and Sansa would bring the Vale troops north at some point in the story, possibly only around or after the Wall has fallen. But with Aegon's invasion and the arrival of winter for good in ADwD I no longer consider that very likely.

2 hours ago, finger said:

My question is, why should Sansa bring him down? Actually, he's he only helping hand she's found (providing she takes the Tyrells' friendship as an interest in her claim to the North.) Her aunt failed her, her siblings are gone, her father's bannermen have betrayed the Starks. Compare with what she knows of LF.

And I always have in mind that she's responsible for her own father's death. That makes her prone to "understand" other people's reasons, and "consider" that one's acts can have unintended consequences. She'd love to think that LF didn't aim to hurt her parents more that she did. Much more so if he gives her back Winterfell. (Irony intended.) He's useful to Sansa and she'll let him be.

As for his other foes, he's left the worst over, he'll manage to win them over. There are a lot of traitors in the North, or the Riverlands, to his "partisans" to be rewarded when he prevails. New lords will probably deny any crime form their benefactor.

Sansa certainly is one of Littlefinger's weaknesses, but I don't see her actually bringing down Littlefinger. At least not right now, not while she is still his pawn. If she did that - or tried to do it - she would inevitably go down herself, too, or at least lose whatever independence and power she could acquire as Littlefinger's co-conspirator.

Should the story take her into a direction where she is no longer close to Littlefinger (with a solid power base of her own) and allow her to figure out what Littlefinger actually did to her family I'm pretty sure she would turn against him. But this kind of story is still light years away.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 hours ago, mankytoes said:

My only objection to Sansa bringing down Littlefinger is that it seems too obvious.

I couldn't agree more. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I couldn't agree more. 

Is it, though? There is quite a number of people who think that Sansa is completely useless as a character, a stupid girl who got her father killed, who has no spine to stand up for herself and who keeps being manipulated by the players of the game. I'd say it's about as obvious as RLJ outside these forums :-)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

exactly @Ygrain. 

Most people in the general public, by which I mean casual readers and show watchers, not the folks who spend their days pouring over various internet forums obsessing over every word of the books, researching various influences and historical events, folklore, fairy tales, and mythology. Really don't see this one. And it will be a surprise to many. 

I worked as a barmaid in a busy tourist pub/b&b a few summers back. And I spent a lot of time discussing ASOIAF and GOT with the various regulars, residents, tourists etc. And you know what I didn't come across a single person who had worked out R+L=J or that Sansa will kill LF. Not one. And several of the people I chatted to were pretty big fans or avid but non-forum frequenting readers.  I had one chap who was a huge book fan had been reading them since the start but hadn't gone on any forums ever. As he just wasn't into the internet and hadn't realised that such places existed until I told him. And he was adamant Sansa is way too feckless to be the one to bring down the "mighty" LF.  And I have said before how I texted my big brother after working out R+L=J and he was all. No fucking way. Nope Jon can't be a Targ he's not blonde.  That reminds me I ought to remind him of his absolute certainty that I was wrong....in light of you know. Me being right n all. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

@Ygrain & @The Weirwoods Eyes, I understand what y'all are saying about relatively more casual, or less engaged, readers not picking up certain things, and the belief of some that she's too much of a nincompoop to take down Petyr, but when the storyteller told us that Petyr used Sansa as a catspaw to assassinate Joffrey, and we recalled the woods witch's vision and the sigil of House Baelish, it was quite clear that Sansa would would kill Petyr. Perhaps too clear. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Lost Melnibonean

I don't think it is too clear at all. I've spoken to people who utterly failed to grasp that Sansa was the maid with serpents in her hair.  Or who didn't even catch the other things in the ghosts dream, such as the red wedding, and Cat being the fish whose eyes opened. One friend whom I urged to read the books, who has an English Lit degree, and so I felt certain that she would pick up most things, completely failed to pick up on it.  Even with me dropping heavy hints during our weekly chat over coffee on her progress. (she was also a game of thrones virgin, so wasn't being influenced by the show either.) And when I finally gave her a HUGE clue about Lyanna being Jon's mum she thought Robert must be his father.

Besides which I am not in the GRRM drops enormous shockers camp. I actually think his writing is pretty classic. The trope-busting is with his characterisation rather than story structure.  I fully expect the story to continue in the vein it has done, with its multiple coming of age themes, culminating in a magic and intrigue fuelled battle for the salvation of Planetos kind. Focused on the big 6 and their individual talents/lessons.  I don't think his aim is to surprise at the expense of satisfactory storytelling (Unlike certain show runners I could mention.) Although he has many times said the ending will be bittersweet, he has also clarified that it will be as sweet as it is bitter and that he thinks most will find it satisfying.  A satisfying ending is one where the bad guy gets taken out by the appropriate person.  In this case Sansa. 

I also trust his foreshadowing, he has said before how he won't lay all the clues to imply the Butler did it, only to turn around and have it have been the chambermaid all along.  Now this is largely and understandably taken in connection to R+L=J But I think it applies across the board. 

[finger]

@Lost Melnibonean I'm not sure at all that Sansa will kill LF, above all because it's against her own interest. At least not while he's her best (only?) supporter.

I can't recall where, but it's said in the books that it's not a strong one who will prevail, but someone nimble, shrewd. Otoh, Nimble Dick didn't fare too well. We could say that the winner has to be nimble, but still anyone can die.

Last but not least, what's in a name? Bael picked the Stark girl and left a blue rose. Will LF be bael-ish?

How are the stakes for Hand Petyr?

[Wrl6199]

15 minutes ago, finger said:

@Lost Melnibonean I'm not sure at all that Sansa will kill LF, above all because it's against her own interest. At least not while he's her best (only?) supporter.

I can't recall where, but it's said in the books that it's not a strong one who will prevail, but someone nimble, shrewd. Otoh, Nimble Dick didn't fare too well. We could say that the winner has to be nimble, but still anyone can die.

Last but not least, what's in a name? Bael picked the Stark girl and left a blue rose. Will LF be bael-ish?

How are the stakes for Hand Petyr?

Littlefinger is a Baelish.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@Lost Melnibonean

I don't think it is too clear at all. I've spoken to people who utterly failed to grasp that Sansa was the maid with serpents in her hair.  Or who didn't even catch the other things in the ghosts dream, such as the red wedding, and Cat being the fish whose eyes opened. One friend whom I urged to read the books, who has an English Lit degree, and so I felt certain that she would pick up most things, completely failed to pick up on it.  Even with me dropping heavy hints during our weekly chat over coffee on her progress. (she was also a game of thrones virgin, so wasn't being influenced by the show either.) And when I finally gave her a HUGE clue about Lyanna being Jon's mum she thought Robert must be his father.

Besides which I am not in the GRRM drops enormous shockers camp. I actually think his writing is pretty classic. The trope-busting is with his characterisation rather than story structure.  I fully expect the story to continue in the vein it has done, with its multiple coming of age themes, culminating in a magic and intrigue fuelled battle for the salvation of Planetos kind. Focused on the big 6 and their individual talents/lessons.  I don't think his aim is to surprise at the expense of satisfactory storytelling (Unlike certain show runners I could mention.) Although he has many times said the ending will be bittersweet, he has also clarified that it will be as sweet as it is bitter and that he thinks most will find it satisfying.  A satisfying ending is one where the bad guy gets taken out by the appropriate person.  In this case Sansa. 

I also trust his foreshadowing, he has said before how he won't lay all the clues to imply the Butler did it, only to turn around and have it have been the chambermaid all along.  Now this is largely and understandably taken in connection to R+L=J But I think it applies across the board. 

I agree with you in large measure. I didn't catch a damn thing on my first read. It was only after I reread that I began to see this was no ordinary tale, but that it was riddled with misdirection upon misdirection, foreshadowing, and allusions.

With that said, though the pieces do point straight at Sansa, but as I have laid out elsewhere, an argument can be made that the puzzle, while looking very much like Sansa, will turn out to be Arya. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

43 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Littlefinger is a Baelish.

He knows. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, finger said:

@Lost Melnibonean I'm not sure at all that Sansa will kill LF, above all because it's against her own interest. At least not while he's her best (only?) supporter.

I can't recall where, but it's said in the books that it's not a strong one who will prevail, but someone nimble, shrewd. Otoh, Nimble Dick didn't fare too well. We could say that the winner has to be nimble, but still anyone can die.

Last but not least, what's in a name? Bael picked the Stark girl and left a blue rose. Will LF be bael-ish?

How are the stakes for Hand Petyr?

Petyr is the big bad from the first act. He will die in the second or the third. 

[Nevets]

On 1/1/2017 at 1:20 PM, finger said:

Allow me to disagree. I can't imagine LF doing something heroic. He'll be killed or he'll prevail, and I lean to the latter.

My question is, why should Sansa bring him down? Actually, he's he only helping hand she's found (providing she takes the Tyrells' friendship as an interest in her claim to the North.) Her aunt failed her, her siblings are gone, her father's bannermen have betrayed the Starks. Compare with what she knows of LF.

And I always have in mind that she's responsible for her own father's death. That makes her prone to "understand" other people's reasons, and "consider" that one's acts can have unintended consequences. She'd love to think that LF didn't aim to hurt her parents more that she did. Much more so if he gives her back Winterfell. (Irony intended.) He's useful to Sansa and she'll let him be.

As for his other foes, he's left the worst over, he'll manage to win them over. There are a lot of traitors in the North, or the Riverlands, to his "partisans" to be rewarded when he prevails. New lords will probably deny any crime form their benefactor.

 

On 1/1/2017 at 2:42 PM, finger said:

I don't see things the same way. Sansa was a prisoner at KL, from where LF had her fled. And he confessed to have plotted Joff's murder. Anyhow, he's helping her the most or, who else? It's Marillion who molested her, and Lysa who tried to throw her through the Moon Gate. Should she look for Roose Bolton's help?

As you say, she has nowhere else to go, and I doubt she will dare trust anyone else better than LF. Future is hard to be predicted, but my best guess is LF will earn some high ladyship for her, then have her marry Aegon. Sansa will be queen at last, and LF the Hand.

Provided someday will be able to read the story.

Actually, Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and never has, from the first day she met him.  ("his smile didn't reach his eyes", i.e., it's fake)  She is only with him because she has nowhere else to go, and for the time being, he is helping her.  

The problem is, there is a huge number of skeletons in his closet.  He had a central role in her family's destruction.  It's possible something about this could come out.  He also almost certainly is responsible for Jeyne Poole's abuse before sending her to marry Ramsay.  There is also the likelihood that he has planned the murders of Robert Arryn and/or Harry the Heir.  Should she discover this, there could be conflict between them.  There are other possibilities for conflict, as well.  For example, I  can easily imagine him as seeing the Others as a chaotic opportunity, but Sansa regarding them as a threat.  (WOW spoiler)

 There is also the food he is hoarding, which Sansa might want to send North or to the Riverlands to relieve hunger there.

While, at this time, there is no reason for her to take down Littlefinger, there is the distinct probability that there will be such an opportunity in the future.  And, contrary to what many readers believe, she is not stupid, and is far less naive than she used to be.

On 1/1/2017 at 3:46 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sansa certainly is one of Littlefinger's weaknesses, but I don't see her actually bringing down Littlefinger. At least not right now, not while she is still his pawn. If she did that - or tried to do it - she would inevitably go down herself, too, or at least lose whatever independence and power she could acquire as Littlefinger's co-conspirator.

Should the story take her into a direction where she is no longer close to Littlefinger (with a solid power base of her own) and allow her to figure out what Littlefinger actually did to her family I'm pretty sure she would turn against him. But this kind of story is still light years away.

It may be a long ways away at this point in time, but I think i t could easily happen during the course of WOW.  I believe that many of the Vale leaders already know (or suspect) who she really is, and would happily back her alongside Sweetrobin against Littlefinger, if it came to that.  Especially if Cersei's power erodes any further.