How will LF meet his end?

[Bonkers]

OP

LF will be slain by ..... no one.  He will be killed silently and quietly by no one important.  He wants glory, but it will be denied to him.  No One will kill him.

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Unlikely the lords don't like Sweet Robin and they didn't like Lysa. Baelish will lead the Vale army to the River lands and help destroy House Frey.  Take control of the Riverlands and get revenge for the red wedding. 

Ever since LF realized that there was a younger, more gullible version of Cat available, I don't think he cared. - Provided that he hadn't stopped caring a long time ago, because boasting that you took someone's maidenhead doesn't exactly scream "love undying".

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

Stannis not Eddard was Baelish's enemy,  Varys too for that matter.  Baelish was willing to work with him until  Eddard threw it all away and named Stannis heir.  Ned left Baelish no opinions.  That's why he betrayed  him. 

But of course Eddard was Baelish's enemy. He was the brother of Brandon who hurt and humiliated LF, and he was the one who took Cat from LF for good. He had to die, and it had been the plan all along, set in motion by that letter which Lysa sent to Cat at LF's behest.

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ever since LF realized that there was a younger, more gullible version of Cat available, I don't think he cared. - Provided that he hadn't stopped caring a long time ago, because boasting that you took someone's maidenhead doesn't exactly scream "love undying".

But of course Eddard was Baelish's enemy. He was the brother of Brandon who hurt and humiliated LF, and he was the one who took Cat from LF for good. He had to die, and it had been the plan all along, set in motion by that letter which Lysa sent to Cat at LF's behest.

I respectfully  disagree.  Baelish  has been more about  gaining  power and ambition than revenge.  The Vale lords have been wanting to fight this war for awhile now. Ned like Joffrey was an enemy that Baelish could beat easily.  Stannis becoming king loses Baelish  everything. Also no there is no proof that Baelish killed Ned.  It just Joffrey  being Joffrey and likely one of the reasons  Baelish  kills Joffrey  later. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Bonkers said:

OP

LF will be slain by ..... no one.  He will be killed silently and quietly by no one important.  He wants glory, but it will be denied to him.  No One will kill him.

Yes! We are two. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ever since LF realized that there was a younger, more gullible version of Cat available, I don't think he cared. - Provided that he hadn't stopped caring a long time ago, because boasting that you took someone's maidenhead doesn't exactly scream "love undying".

But of course Eddard was Baelish's enemy. He was the brother of Brandon who hurt and humiliated LF, and he was the one who took Cat from LF for good. He had to die, and it had been the plan all along, set in motion by that letter which Lysa sent to Cat at LF's behest.

And that's why the faceless man was in the black cells waiting for the Ned. 

[Azzanadra]

I feel like Sansa will be us undoing, fitting for someone like Littlefinger who thinks he has everything under control that his most unhinged passions, those he cannot keep in check are what end up doing him in. 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I respectfully  disagree.  Baelish  has been more about  gaining  power and ambition than revenge.  The Vale lords have been wanting to fight this war for awhile now. Ned like Joffrey was an enemy that Baelish could beat easily.  Stannis becoming king loses Baelish  everything. Also no there is no proof that Baelish killed Ned.  It just Joffrey  being Joffrey and likely one of the reasons  Baelish  kills Joffrey  later. 

Well, those two are not necessarily mutually exclusive - his revenge wouldn't be possible without gaining power, and his ambition to rise from his low rank is a balm to his hurt ego. But his "Only Cat", among other things, shows an unhealthy obsession behind this all.

That said, you are not necessarily wrong about the immediate reason why Baelish betrays Ned - Stannis as king would indeed be a threat for his plans - but Ned's death had been the plan all along, as soon as opportunity or need arose. BTW, remember how Ned got almost killed by Jaime? Ned had intended to leave KL immediately, but postponed his departure because LF chose that moment to reveal him Barra, and then Jaime was waiting for them on their way back. How did Jaime learn? Not necessarily from LF himself, but the option cannot be ruled out.

As for Joffrey, we know that LF could manipulate him into doing something that he didn't even want (the jousting dwarfs at the wedding). Whispering him the right words about kings not pardoning their enemies, going so nicely with his sadistic streak, was bound to work, as well.

- BTW, as for LF's ultimate ambition, Radio Westeros proposes becoming the Lord of Winterfell through marrying Cat 2.0, and I agree. The Vale lords will probably be instrumental in retaking Winterfell, but it remains to be seen if LF will live long enough to lead them there. Based on the GoHH's vision of Sansa killing a giant in the castle of snow, I am inclined to think that he will, but the option of making him fly is enticing :-) (The only more enticing option is Sansa dealing justice in the Stark way, per Radio Westeros again.)

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And that's why the faceless man was in the black cells waiting for the Ned. 

Not impossible or implausible, but if this was really LF's doing, it would take his unhealthy obsession a couple levels higher. It would also be... I don't know, it doesn't feel like LF's way of doing things. He manipulates events but reassesses his plans if things don't go his way and waits till another opportunity presents itself, hiring an assassin seems too straightforward.

Besides, I think that Ned would have died, anyway, from the infection in his leg. Pycelle must have known, would LF learn?

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, those two are not necessarily mutually exclusive - his revenge wouldn't be possible without gaining power, and his ambition to rise from his low rank is a balm to his hurt ego. But his "Only Cat", among other things, shows an unhealthy obsession behind this all.

That said, you are not necessarily wrong about the immediate reason why Baelish betrays Ned - Stannis as king would indeed be a threat for his plans - but Ned's death had been the plan all along, as soon as opportunity or need arose. BTW, remember how Ned got almost killed by Jaime? Ned had intended to leave KL immediately, but postponed his departure because LF chose that moment to reveal him Barra, and then Jaime was waiting for them on their way back. How did Jaime learn? Not necessarily from LF himself, but the option cannot be ruled out.

As for Joffrey, we know that LF could manipulate him into doing something that he didn't even want (the jousting dwarfs at the wedding). Whispering him the right words about kings not pardoning their enemies, going so nicely with his sadistic streak, was bound to work, as well.

- BTW, as for LF's ultimate ambition, Radio Westeros proposes becoming the Lord of Winterfell through marrying Cat 2.0, and I agree. The Vale lords will probably be instrumental in retaking Winterfell, but it remains to be seen if LF will live long enough to lead them there. Based on the GoHH's vision of Sansa killing a giant in the castle of snow, I am inclined to think that he will, but the option of making him fly is enticing :-) (The only more enticing option is Sansa dealing justice in the Stark way, per Radio Westeros again.)

Not impossible or implausible, but if this was really LF's doing, it would take his unhealthy obsession a couple levels higher. It would also be... I don't know, it doesn't feel like LF's way of doing things. He manipulates events but reassesses his plans if things don't go his way and waits till another opportunity presents itself, hiring an assassin seems too straightforward.

Besides, I think that Ned would have died, anyway, from the infection in his leg. Pycelle must have known, would LF learn?

I do love Radio Westeros and they do excellent work.  I have seen the video video on Baelish.  It's good but I have to disagree with the conclusion. People over fixate on the Starks as usual. Power is more important because it enables  the revenge.  He is Lord Paramount of the River lands not the North. Hoster aborted his kid and cast  him from a Riverrun after Lysa raped him several times. 

Baelish isn't the giant,  it was  either  the doll or more interesting  Tyrion. I don't  but much stock in prophecy so it could be nothing. 

Stannis as King loses Baelish everything.  He tells Ned as much and Ned literally chooses Stannis and war.  He then makes a plan  that rely on Baelish because  he already alienated the rest of his potential allies.  It was self preservation  not the whole plan. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, those two are not necessarily mutually exclusive - his revenge wouldn't be possible without gaining power, and his ambition to rise from his low rank is a balm to his hurt ego. But his "Only Cat", among other things, shows an unhealthy obsession behind this all.

That said, you are not necessarily wrong about the immediate reason why Baelish betrays Ned - Stannis as king would indeed be a threat for his plans - but Ned's death had been the plan all along, as soon as opportunity or need arose. BTW, remember how Ned got almost killed by Jaime? Ned had intended to leave KL immediately, but postponed his departure because LF chose that moment to reveal him Barra, and then Jaime was waiting for them on their way back. How did Jaime learn? Not necessarily from LF himself, but the option cannot be ruled out.

As for Joffrey, we know that LF could manipulate him into doing something that he didn't even want (the jousting dwarfs at the wedding). Whispering him the right words about kings not pardoning their enemies, going so nicely with his sadistic streak, was bound to work, as well.

- BTW, as for LF's ultimate ambition, Radio Westeros proposes becoming the Lord of Winterfell through marrying Cat 2.0, and I agree. The Vale lords will probably be instrumental in retaking Winterfell, but it remains to be seen if LF will live long enough to lead them there. Based on the GoHH's vision of Sansa killing a giant in the castle of snow, I am inclined to think that he will, but the option of making him fly is enticing :-) (The only more enticing option is Sansa dealing justice in the Stark way, per Radio Westeros again.)

Not impossible or implausible, but if this was really LF's doing, it would take his unhealthy obsession a couple levels higher. It would also be... I don't know, it doesn't feel like LF's way of doing things. He manipulates events but reassesses his plans if things don't go his way and waits till another opportunity presents itself, hiring an assassin seems too straightforward.

Besides, I think that Ned would have died, anyway, from the infection in his leg. Pycelle must have known, would LF learn?

I'll take it!

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

86 crawling upstairs to his mistress .

[finger]

17 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I respectfully  disagree.  Baelish  has been more about  gaining  power and ambition than revenge.  The Vale lords have been wanting to fight this war for awhile now. Ned like Joffrey was an enemy that Baelish could beat easily.  Stannis becoming king loses Baelish  everything. Also no there is no proof that Baelish killed Ned.  It just Joffrey  being Joffrey and likely one of the reasons  Baelish  kills Joffrey  later. 

What puzzles you is the nature of his game

He seems to aim riches, power and revenge. While the road is the same for any, it's hard to tell what's the goal and what's the means, if it's possible at any time. As the story is left, he has gathered a fortune by selling food, he has dealt painful blows to Starks and Tullys, he can look down on many who once put him down, and on paper he's among the few most powerful men in Westeros: Lord of Harrenhall, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Lord Protector of the Vale,... In sum, he's rich, he has taken revenge and, if he gets real grip of his nominal holdings, he'll be very, very powerful. The problem is, it'll leave us without knowing what he really cared for.

Btw, he's ever nearer to reach the goal. I remember the books started with a junior son of Bronze Yohn trying to make a career at the Night Watch. It seems it was that or the Second Sons, more so since some other Vale's scion was with Renly.  Now, LF has a few vacant jobs at the Riverlands that the Vale's second sons can apply for, and the money to sustain them while that day comes. Given that the Vale was not been at war, they only have to take what LF will tell to, with the troops their fathers will lend them.

I'd say he'll first let the Vale's lords imagine that Cersei had Jon Arryn poisoned. Then, he'll serve them glib words, lies, golden Arbor, and many promises. When the day comes to honour the latter, with the lords angry with Freys and Lannisters, he has ways to get it. For instance, settling at HH, and claiming Darry to dispose of. But that's another story.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I do love Radio Westeros and they do excellent work.  I have seen the video video on Baelish.  It's good but I have to disagree with the conclusion. People over fixate on the Starks as usual. Power is more important because it enables  the revenge.  He is Lord Paramount of the River lands not the North. Hoster aborted his kid and cast  him from a Riverrun after Lysa raped him several times. 

LF didn't give two figs about his kid or Riverrun, it was Cat he wanted, and still does, in her Sansa incarnation, and it was the Starks who took her from him. And this has nothing to do with readers' fondness of the Starks, but it is the way GRRM constructed his story, as a trauma of LF's life.

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Baelish isn't the giant,  it was  either  the doll or more interesting  Tyrion. I don't  but much stock in prophecy so it could be nothing. 

His family's sigil is the titan of Braavos - a giant, if you will. Like in Bran's vision where a huge giant looms over Ned, Sansa and Arya. LF's influence over their lives is indeed gigantic.

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Stannis as King loses Baelish everything.  He tells Ned as much and Ned literally chooses Stannis and war.  He then makes a plan  that rely on Baelish because  he already alienated the rest of his potential allies.  It was self preservation  not the whole plan. 

Yes, at that point, self-preservation certainly played a role, but betraying Ned wasn't a matter of if but when. The whole LF scheme started with dragging Ned into events which were out of his control, by creating a conflict between the Starks and Lannisters, and LF pulled the rug from under Ned's feet when the conflict escalated so terribly that Ned's death was practically a given. Two birds with one stone - keep his power in KL and eliminate Ned. Perfect planning.

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, finger said:

What puzzles you is the nature of his game

Nice.

[Bonkers]

On 29/01/2017 at 7:15 PM, Ygrain said:

Based on the GoHH's vision of Sansa killing a giant in the castle of snow, I am inclined to think that he will, but the option of making him fly is enticing :-)

It would be cool, but the Eyrie is locked up and empty until Spring.  It doubt anyone will be going back there again.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 23/01/2017 at 11:32 AM, mankytoes said:

Oh, I'm totally dense when it comes to foreshadowing, and I thought this before I'd read stuff online.

My view isn't so much based on the foreshadowing as the characters. Cat, and now Sansa, has been Littlefinger's one weakness. He's brilliantly smart and totally amoral, this obsession, infactuation, whatever, seems like his one weakness. And how do you take down the big bad? By exploiting his one weakness.

These books don't generally work like that. It seems like Sansa is more the person we're supposed to think will bring him down. 

 

 

You are wrong, these books do work like that. GRRM is not as subversive as you are trying to make out. His stories actually tend to still follow the classic structures,  he subverts some elements but the overall arcs tend to still run along traditional structures.  There is a reason for this. Satisfying stories work because of the way they are structured. In order for a story to be satisfactory, the villains do need to be brought down, Sansa is the right person to do so in LF's case, the only other satisfying person would be LSH. But seeing as her story has diverged from his significantly and she is pursuing her own vengeance arc with the Frey's, and Sansa does not have another nemesis to destroy (Cersei is Jaime's demon) then LF is hers.  The foreshadowing is very strong on this one, and as someone who does pick up on foreshadowing, I can assure you. No writer puts that much foreshadowing into a story if they intend on doing something else. Doing so is bad writing, it would mislead the readers who are attentive and leave them feeling cheated by a story. No satisfaction in that.  

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The foreshadowing is very strong on this one

The Force is strong in this one.

- Sorry, couldn't resist

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Hahahaha, @Ygrain well it is, the foreshadowing LF being the giant is very strong.  There isn't a single example of foreshadowing which later comes to nowt in these books. When GRRM lays a breadcrumb trail he delivers.  

[Ygrain]

9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 When GRRM lays a breadcrumb trail he delivers.  

As it should be.

When TWOW are finally out, it will be fun to sit down and count how many we got right, or wrong.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

As it should be.

When TWOW are finally out, it will be fun to sit down and count how many we got right, or wrong.

 

I can't wait for that; I am so looking forwards to finding out if I am right about certain people and things. And to an end to the denial of certain theories. 

[mankytoes]

On 30/01/2017 at 4:48 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You are wrong, these books do work like that. GRRM is not as subversive as you are trying to make out. His stories actually tend to still follow the classic structures,  he subverts some elements but the overall arcs tend to still run along traditional structures.  There is a reason for this. Satisfying stories work because of the way they are structured. In order for a story to be satisfactory, the villains do need to be brought down, Sansa is the right person to do so in LF's case, the only other satisfying person would be LSH. But seeing as her story has diverged from his significantly and she is pursuing her own vengeance arc with the Frey's, and Sansa does not have another nemesis to destroy (Cersei is Jaime's demon) then LF is hers.  The foreshadowing is very strong on this one, and as someone who does pick up on foreshadowing, I can assure you. No writer puts that much foreshadowing into a story if they intend on doing something else. Doing so is bad writing, it would mislead the readers who are attentive and leave them feeling cheated by a story. No satisfaction in that.  

You're missing the point a bit. It isn't that you just totally disregard the foreshadowing, you do something more intelligent and unexpected with it.

You say the villains need to be killed in a "satisfactory" way. Who killed Vargo Hoat? Gregor Clegane. Who killed Craster? Dirk (had to look that up). Joffrey? Olenna Tyrell/Littlefinger/Dontos Holland. Only Tywin you could really say has much foreshadowing.