The Marquis de Leech Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 According to Australia's resident far-right kooky party, apparently New Zealanders moving to Australia are like the Israeli settlements... http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/world/one-nation-proposes-punishing-nzers-for-israel-vote/ I thought we were the Mexicans? How can I keep this straight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 4 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: Not least because while ANZUS is inoperable between New Zealand and the US (nuclear ships), it is still operable between New Zealand and Australia. So Israel going after us means they go after Australia too. And *that* drags in the US. And us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 From a pragmatic point of view: how big would be the probability that a Palestinean nation state would just be another dysfunctional Arab state or a secular dictatorship? I am all for a Palestinean state but I am tired of the narrative that this would be the solution for everything. Empirical evidence in the MENA region plus Afghanistan plus Pakistan tells a different story. If there would be a Palestinean nation state, I see 2 realistic outcomes: - strong secular dictatorship - dysfunctional to failed state with constant fighting between secular and religious forces I know quite a lot of Arabs and they LOVE a good "always the victim" story. People in the West mistake this for an Islam thing. It's not. You won't hear that kind of lamentation from Turks, Kurds or Persians. Nor Indonesians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 22 minutes ago, Arakan said: From a pragmatic point of view: how big would be the probability that a Palestinean nation state would just be another dysfunctional Arab state or a secular dictatorship? Another way to phrase that: Are there currently Arabs that live in a better situation than Israeli Arabs (who, arguably, are the discriminated-against group in an apartheid state)? I think not. (I'm happy to be proved wrong.) So, for most Arabs, the prospect of being secondary citizens in a secular democratic apartheid state is a utopian dream beyond any reasonable hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 48 minutes ago, Happy Ent said: Another way to phrase that: Are there currently Arabs that live in a better situation than Israeli Arabs (who, arguably, are the discriminated-against group in an apartheid state)? I think not. (I'm happy to be proved wrong.) So, for most Arabs, the prospect of being secondary citizens in a secular democratic apartheid state is a utopian dream beyond any reasonable hope. You see, what you wrote is "harsh" but from a rational pov it includes a lot of truth. To be very honest, this whole Israeli-Palestinian issue is so blown out of proportion that it just annoys me at this stage. At this stage it is almost exclusively a PR tool for all involved parties. The conflict is constantly fueled because no one wants a pragmatic solution or a solution at all. Neither the neighboring states, the political elite in Israel, the political elite of the Palistineans, the "great powers" (with maybe the exception of the EU but who as a group is powerless). In the same region we have 40 million Kurds without a nation state. We have ethnic conflicts all over the world. But this Palestine stuff eats so much resources it is beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Surely this is begging the question of whether people prefer to live as second class citizens in an alien culture/state or as equals in a state with fewer rights and less material wealth. I was under the impression that it was the perception of equality/fairness that as the main indicator of contentment in recent studies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Hereward said: Surely this is begging the question of whether people prefer to live as second class citizens in an alien culture/state or as equals in a state with fewer rights and less material wealth. I was under the impression that it was the perception of equality/fairness that as the main indicator of contentment in recent studies? The point is: the victimhood of the Palestineans is blown out of proportion while other conflicts get ignored. Life is not fair but sometimes you have to cut your losses and move on. I do not accept anymore the media narrative that the Palestinians are the most unfair treated people in the world. As I said this conflict is artificially fueled because no one wants a solution. One reason why it is important that the US and Iran "make peace". You will be astonished how fast the Iranian narrative regarding Palestine would change . This would be a great first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Happy Ent said: Another way to phrase that: Are there currently Arabs that live in a better situation than Israeli Arabs (who, arguably, are the discriminated-against group in an apartheid state)? I think not. (I'm happy to be proved wrong.) So, for most Arabs, the prospect of being secondary citizens in a secular democratic apartheid state is a utopian dream beyond any reasonable hope. The same argument was used by Pretoria in the bad old days - "see how much better off blacks are here than elsewhere in Africa!" I never thought I'd see it resurface on this board, of all places. (Hereward is right, of course. You're engaging in some quite severe question-begging). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: The same argument was used by Pretoria in the bad old days - "see how much better off blacks are here than elsewhere in Africa!" I never thought I'd see it resurface on this board, of all places. (Hereward is right, of course. You're engaging in some quite severe question-begging). To compare the situation of blacks in South Africa under Apartheid with the situation of Palistineans is not only incorrect but it is an example of PR and the "always the victim" mentality among so many Arabs. One just has to take a look at the Arab media. Always drama, almost never rational cool analysis. It's the same mentality that make hundreds of thousands of people go crazy about some drawings in an irrelevant danish newspaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Good opinion piece about the peace process. Link. One particularly interesting quote, Quote The peace process itself has become a ridiculous term — weasel words that give politicians a refuge from hard truths and ill-educated journalists a rote talking point. That it ever existed at all is dubious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 10 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: Not least because while ANZUS is inoperable between New Zealand and the US (nuclear ships), it is still operable between New Zealand and Australia. So Israel going after us means they go after Australia too. And *that* drags in the US. Ah, that's interesting. As far as I know we don't have a formal defence treaty with Israel though, right? If we did we'd technically be obligated to defend them each time rockets were launched into their territory. But I was more interested in the logistics of a war between NZ and Israel. Like where would the battles occur, would it be all naval based, and could we have frickin sharks with frickin lasers on their heads just duke it out somewhere in the Indian Ocean rather than have loss of human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 hour ago, snake said: Good opinion piece about the peace process. Link. Nice article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Arakan said: To compare the situation of blacks in South Africa under Apartheid with the situation of Palistineans is not only incorrect... How is it incorrect? If you have a segregated society where one set of people live with all their rights respected and the other set are living under martial law, and have been for 50 years, what is it if not apartheid? Where Israel is concerned, West Bank *is* part of their state. They have annexed it in all but name and yet refuse the Palestinians almost any rights that belong to rightful citizens. There your rights and obligations literally and exclusively depend upon your ethnic/religious origin. I am sorry man, but what is it? Languages across the globe have a word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I apologise for derailing the discussion by using an analogy, and concede the “begging the question” argument. For the record, I was talking about the plight of Israeli Arabs (who are Israeli citizens), not of stateless Palestinian Arabs. But analogies suck anyway, so I retract the observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 11 hours ago, Arakan said: From a pragmatic point of view: how big would be the probability that a Palestinean nation state would just be another dysfunctional Arab state or a secular dictatorship? I am all for a Palestinean state but I am tired of the narrative that this would be the solution for everything. Empirical evidence in the MENA region plus Afghanistan plus Pakistan tells a different story. If there would be a Palestinean nation state, I see 2 realistic outcomes: - strong secular dictatorship - dysfunctional to failed state with constant fighting between secular and religious forces I know quite a lot of Arabs and they LOVE a good "always the victim" story. People in the West mistake this for an Islam thing. It's not. You won't hear that kind of lamentation from Turks, Kurds or Persians. Nor Indonesians. It's not an Arab thing. It's not a Muslim thing. It's a human thing. Rich white males in the wealthiest country on earth think they're victimized by political correctness/inverted racism-sexism. Hyper-technologically advanced military superpowers forces participating in illegal invasions in much less advanced/wealthy nations feel they're the victims of religious extremism. Remember Rome? The ever-expanding Empire? In their minds they weren't expansionist; they were constantly reacting to foreign threats at their (advancing) borders. It's always been thus. What takes just a little effort is distinguishing the real victims...say, slaves, native Americans, women in the workplace, homosexuals, the Czechs at Munich, etc. That everyone does it doesn't mean it's true for everyone, but neither does it mean it's equally untrue for everyone. There are real victims, and real persecutors. The persecutors are easiest to identify, because they tend to end up the ones with the most power/money/control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck norris 42 Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 8 hours ago, James Arryn said: It's not an Arab thing. In my experience Arabs are more "dramatic" and "exaggerated" than Westerners and in many cases you have to tone things down a bit to get understand their real sentiments. . (Similar to how a Westerner would say "things are bad" and a Japanese would say "things are not ideal") For example if I ask them about a movie I expect them to say "it was wonderful like a mothers love for there new born baby" or "it was horrible, like a nuclear war " I do not expect them to say not something like "It was good overall but it had boring bits" or "A typical Hollywood movie you have seen 100 times before but it had its good parts" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorn Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 17 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said: But I was more interested in the logistics of a war between NZ and Israel. Like where would the battles occur, would it be all naval based, and could we have frickin sharks with frickin lasers on their heads just duke it out somewhere in the Indian Ocean rather than have loss of human life. I assume it would be similar to the 101-year war between Japan and Montenegro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On January 4, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Happy Ent said: Another way to phrase that: Are there currently Arabs that live in a better situation than Israeli Arabs (who, arguably, are the discriminated-against group in an apartheid state)? I think not. (I'm happy to be proved wrong.) This is literally a favoured argument for those who used to defend S.A. Apartheid. Like change Arabs to 'blacks' or w/e. Man, what's old is really new these days, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, James Arryn said: This is literally a favoured argument for those who used to defend S.A. Apartheid. Like change Arabs to 'blacks' or w/e. Man, what's old is really new these days, isn't it? As I said above, I had no idea this observation triggered something SA-related. I think discourse deteriorated by its introduction, so I assume we move on. It is tangential to my opinion, at best, and was merely introduced as a rephrasing of somebody else's argument about the quality of societies built by Arabs. I certainly did not introduce the argument in order to defend Israeli occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 5:41 AM, Happy Ent said: Another way to phrase that: Are there currently Arabs that live in a better situation than Israeli Arabs (who, arguably, are the discriminated-against group in an apartheid state)? I think not. (I'm happy to be proved wrong.) No doubt. The House of Saud and all their relatives live a comfortable life. As does many of the ruling families throughout the Arab world. They are extremely wealthy, have security and freedom. They have all the power and privilege their status affords them. So yes. They are much better off than Israeli Arabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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