Why did Netanyahu say "New Zealand's resolution against Israel is a declaration of war?"

[Happy Ent]

On 07/01/2017 at 3:04 AM, snake said:

No doubt.  The House of Saud and all their relatives live a comfortable life.  As does many of the ruling families throughout the Arab world. 

Bah. Then rephrase my claim to “have better societies been built – better for Arabs! – in the Middle East, than Israel?” But surely you understood that, because it takes a strange and authoritarian mindset (or an uncharitable interpretation) to believe that I would evaluate societies by how well they treat their monarchs. 

Put yourself in the shoes of an Arab. (Imagine you’re a woman or gay, or merely share the values of this board. In particular, you are not allowed to reason as follows: “If I’m supposed to think of myself as an Arab then I will automatically be racist, homophobic, tribal, misogynistic, and religous. Therefore, the values of liberal democracies have no utility for me.”)

Now, given this conceit, which nation in the Middle East would you like to be a citizen in? I think the answer is clearly Israel. I may be wrong, and am happy to stand corrected. But “Saudi Arabia as a member of House Saud” is not an answer that convinces me, just as “Syria as Assad” convinces me of nothing else than the moral corruption or intellectual dishonesty of the respondent.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

. 

Put yourself in the shoes of an Arab. (Imagine you’re a woman or gay, or merely share the values of this board. In particular, you are not allowed to reason as follows: “If I’m supposed to think of myself as an Arab then I will automatically be racist, homophobic, tribal, misogynistic, and religous. Therefore, the values of liberal democracies have no utility for me.”)

 

I mean that would assume that there are many arabs who do in fact have liberal , left wing values. I don't think that is the case. Most are pretty socially conservative in fact. 

[Happy Ent]

7 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I mean that would assume that there are many arabs who do in fact have liberal , left wing values. I don't think that is the case. Most are pretty socially conservative in fact. 

We’re getting nowhere now, but for the record: the word “liberal” in “liberal democracy” does not refer to the US English meaning of “liberal” (which means progressive or left-wing or something like that.)

Social conservatism is a perfectly valid opinion to hold in a liberal democracy.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

38 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

We’re getting nowhere now, but for the record: the word “liberal” in “liberal democracy” does not refer to the US English meaning of “liberal” (which means progressive or left-wing or something like that.)

Social conservatism is a perfectly valid opinion to hold in a liberal democracy.

Ok. But my point was that most Arabs are very unlikely to hold progressive left wing views. In fact they might be very unhappy were homosexuality to be allowed in their country for instance. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Ok. But my point was that most Arabs are very unlikely to hold progressive left wing views. In fact they might be very unhappy were homosexuality to be allowed in their country for instance. 

What import does this information hold for this discussion?

[MerenthaClone]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What import does this information hold for this discussion?

"Arabs bad" seems to be just about the beginning and end of his argument, frankly.  

[DireWolfSpirit]

I would think that your average Emirate or Kuwaiti is living quite comfortable in their societies @ "Have any Arabic nations built societies they'd prefer to Israel?"

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

Quote

Put yourself in the shoes of an Arab. (Imagine you’re a woman or gay, or merely share the values of this board. In particular, you are not allowed to reason as follows: “If I’m supposed to think of myself as an Arab then I will automatically be racist, homophobic, tribal, misogynistic, and religous. Therefore, the values of liberal democracies have no utility for me.”)

My point was that the above person would be a huge minority in an Arab society, and yes they might prefer to be in a more liberal society like Israel, but actually most other Arabs might prefer their societies to be more racist, tribal and religious. So have any Arabic nations built societies they prefer to Israel.. well yes, they might quite like the societies they have. 

btw, thats not saying 'Arabs bad', its saying that other cultures have different ideas to you and they might not think your left leaning preferences are good ones.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Its true most M.E. Muslims are extraordinarily similar to conservative Republicans. 

[Happy Ent]

Again, please accept my apologies for derailing this thread. I will not reply along this trajectory any more.

[The Anti-Targ]

If Israel and Palestine were two cultures in conflict in the Star Wars universe they would be warring factions on the dark side of the force because they are both so strongly motivated by hate. They both teach their children to hate the other side and only destruction at the hands of a death star is acceptable.

Both sides outwardly claim to accept the principle of a 2-state solution (with very different conceptions of that that looks like). But inwardly they both want a one state solution, exclusive to their side, with the other side consigned to a permanent stateless exile and being someone else's problem.

The real solution is for both peoples to let go of their hate, form a relationship of mutual respect and acceptance and live together harmoniously in a single state. I believe this will happen, but I just wonder about how many generations it will take to achieve it.

[James Arryn]

13 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

If Israel and Palestine were two cultures in conflict in the Star Wars universe they would be warring factions on the dark side of the force because they are both so strongly motivated by hate. They both teach their children to hate the other side and only destruction at the hands of a death star is acceptable.

Both sides outwardly claim to accept the principle of a 2-state solution (with very different conceptions of that that looks like). But inwardly they both want a one state solution, exclusive to their side, with the other side consigned to a permanent stateless exile and being someone else's problem.

The real solution is for both peoples to let go of their hate, form a relationship of mutual respect and acceptance and live together harmoniously in a single state. I believe this will happen, but I just wonder about how many generations it will take to achieve it.

Ireland was similar*, then peace kinda came out of nowhere. Course, as with everywhere it seems, nativism/popular prejudice are currently resurgent there at the moment, so the Troubles might make a comeback, but still...that's my one ray of Hope.

 

* what I mean as that it too had gotten to a point where the political talking points had really taken a backseat to the ground floor level of antagonism wherein most/many people involved had lost  a loved one to the other side, and the 'you killed my brother, yeah because he killed my gran' kinda thing becomes an almost hopeless loop once it permeates to everyday citizenry in a non-war scenario...ie, no end in sight. 

[Hereward]

10 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Ireland was similar*, then peace kinda came out of nowhere. Course, as with everywhere it seems, nativism/popular prejudice are currently resurgent there at the moment, so the Troubles might make a comeback, but still...that's my one ray of Hope.

 

* what I mean as that it too had gotten to a point where the political talking points had really taken a backseat to the ground floor level of antagonism wherein most/many people involved had lost  a loved one to the other side, and the 'you killed my brother, yeah because he killed my gran' kinda thing becomes an almost hopeless loop once it permeates to everyday citizenry in a non-war scenario...ie, no end in sight. 

You're going t have to back that up, because that is not the case at all IMO, despite the current political spat between the DUP and Sinn Fein over heating oil subsidies. Sectarian relations on the ground are better than they have ever been and there is precisely no realistic prospect of a resumption of violence.

PS Also, peace didn't come out of nowhere, the process began years before the Good Friday agreement, and it wasn't a bottom up process driven by war weariness either. It was led from the top in the teeth of the rival hardline communities' opposition. 

[Mr Fixit]

I know next to nothing about Ireland, so excuse my ignorance, but it was always my impression that it was the economy that had a chief role in Northern Irish peace process. Huge economic growth, particularly in Ireland, must have had something to do with it, right? Once people start living decently, they are less likely to fall back on petty nationalism and violence. Again, total outsider here just offering his opinion.

[Hereward]

No, not really. Northern Ireland was always richer than the Republic. Ireland's boom was after the peace process. The main reasons for the peace process were that the Republic and the UK got together to offer concessions, including the prospect of an eventual reunification, plus the widespread infiltration of the IRA by the security services, which was leading to wholesale arrests and deaths in compromised operations.

[snake]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:01 AM, Happy Ent said:

Bah. Then rephrase my claim to “have better societies been built – better for Arabs! – in the Middle East, than Israel?” But surely you understood that, because it takes a strange and authoritarian mindset (or an uncharitable interpretation) to believe that I would evaluate societies by how well they treat their monarchs. 

Put yourself in the shoes of an Arab. (Imagine you’re a woman or gay, or merely share the values of this board. In particular, you are not allowed to reason as follows: “If I’m supposed to think of myself as an Arab then I will automatically be racist, homophobic, tribal, misogynistic, and religous. Therefore, the values of liberal democracies have no utility for me.”)

Now, given this conceit, which nation in the Middle East would you like to be a citizen in? I think the answer is clearly Israel. I may be wrong, and am happy to stand corrected. But “Saudi Arabia as a member of House Saud” is not an answer that convinces me, just as “Syria as Assad” convinces me of nothing else than the moral corruption or intellectual dishonesty of the respondent.

You should not make sweeping generalizations.  And we cannot always look at the Arab world through the lens of our Western bias.  That we often do such a thing is why we often miscalculate what the effect our actions will have on the ME. 

Anyways, despite all the rhetoric and political promises I cannot see there being a resolution to this conflict anytime in the future.  Maybe 100 or so years from now but not within the next two generations.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 12/01/2017 at 11:09 PM, Hereward said:

You're going t have to back that up, because that is not the case at all IMO, despite the current political spat between the DUP and Sinn Fein over heating oil subsidies. Sectarian relations on the ground are better than they have ever been and there is precisely no realistic prospect of a resumption of violence.

IIRC, the Catholic population in Northern Ireland is due to overtake the Protestant population either this year or next - eventual reunification is inevitable on demographic grounds - so it's not impossible there might be a temporary blip in violence at some point in the next twenty years, as the hardliners make their last stand.

[Hereward]

Almost correct, in that those calling themselves Catholics are only 1 percentage point behind Protestants, though if you ask people if they come from a Protestant or Catholic background, the gap is a few points bigger, and 17% of people now say they are neither. Who knows which way they will break. But yes, at some point reunification seems inevitable, and there may be a backlash, and a reunified Ireland may have significant difficulties. 

[ljkeane]

I believe support for reunification amongst Catholics is declining as well so I'm not necessarily sure it's guaranteed. It might be something of a biased sample but I don't know any Northern Irish Catholics under the age of 30 or so who are in favour of reunification, largely because it's an issue they associate with the troubles.

I think at this point for a referendum on reunification to succeed it'd have to be in an environment were people would be confident it definitely wouldn't result in a significant resurgence of conflict.